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#1551 2023-12-30 12:36:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Yet another thought to append to the previous two posts.

Cooling of the panels themselves.  By posturing for the best cooling, efficiency may improve and also the solar panels lifetimes might be extended by avoiding overheating.  Certain postures may be the best for maintaining towards an optimal temperature depending on the nature of the sunlight and the winds.  Rooftop solar does not seem to have much for that kind of control.

Generally cooling would be by radiation and air flow, but I suppose some liquid cooling might also be applied, but I would think not to do that, unless for some reason it shows great value.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-30 12:38:15)


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#1552 2023-12-30 18:04:23

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am wondering if cleaver people will think of some kind of robotic origami that would be more sophisticated than my example.

But I think it is possible that what I gave might work rather well for the Moon.  Just a slow roll over the length of the lunar day.

Then also put aluminum foil on the ground to boost the morning and afternoon outputs.  On nice thing about the roll is you might be able to keep the panels form overheating, and of course the shadowed side can dissipate heat to the universe.

Mars might be similar, but you might also want heliostats to boost the input of photons to the solar panels.  One nice thing is you could roll the photocell side down at night, winter, dust storms, and reduce the amount of dust accumulations.  This might also make it easier to clean the panels.

For Ceres and Callisto, I do think you would want heliostats to boost photons to the photocells.

An interesting thing about doing this on low gravity worlds with no atmosphere trouble, is the size could be supersize.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-30 18:11:43)


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#1553 2023-12-31 10:08:43

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

kdb512 has made a good find: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSsiB-PrYw

So, to clean Heliostats, windows, and perhaps solar panels, this looks like a possibility, and with robotics, this makes is more plausible that optical equipment as mentioned may be cost effective on Mars.

Of course, it may help on Earth for similar.  I wonder if building windows will clean up that way.


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Last edited by Void (2023-12-31 10:11:19)


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#1554 2023-12-31 10:40:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, so now if we have electricity, we might want a Thermal Reservoir.  Previously I have utilized strange methods using ice and pykrete, and other methods.  Now I will suppose more "Modern" materials to make a reservoir to hold hot water or cold water, generated from electrical power.

The power can come from Nuclear, Solar Thermal, and Photovoltaic sources on Mars, I think. 

The shape I show is a cut away of a sphere but it does not have to be: r3f7HGW.png

I am actually not thinking of transparencies on this, but it is not forbidden if you can find a way to put windows on it.

For the moment I will suppose that the walls are 3D printed metal.

You might say, well if the power source is nuclear, then why do you need to cycle the water layer 'C' temperatures?  Well your load may be variable.

I think that nuclear on Mars will be a start donated from Earth/Moon, and that Solar will offer early growth, until local nuclear can be developed.

And I am thinking of involving liquid Martian air in this to store cold energy.

The waters 'B' and even 'C' may permit chemical agriculture.  You could add artificial lighting, perhaps a combination of light and chemicals would work best.

Of course, you need a reservoir for liquid CO2 as well.  The residual gasses after the condensation of CO2 could be used for industrial feed stock and the manufacture of Air.

Condensation on the inner surfaces will yield a sort of cleaned water as a side product.

In a time of lack of energy such as high latitude winter or a dust storm, of course the thing needs to be mothballed and not allowed to be damaged by the water load freezing and expanding.  At high latitudes it might be that you simply pump the water out into a depression and most will collect as a liquid with ice over it.

These could be low pressure, but Starship Tanks can do up to 6 bar and they are rather thin, I believe.

The calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, if you really wanted to put a transparent plastic bubble on top of this, and have 90 degF water / 33 degC water, then 50.1792 mbar

But Robert Dyck has reported that 100 mbar is a low-pressure limit for vascular plants, so boiling point ~46 degC.

But I wonder if eliminating windows might make some sense, at least for Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms.

Perhaps 10% artificial light and then chemicals might work with some vascular plants.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-31 11:06:04)


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#1555 2024-01-01 11:02:16

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban made a post about making things out of Mud: (#74): http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 52#p217952
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,097
Email
The Urban Hut Mud lab is an exploration of the use of mud as a building material and the construction of built-in furniture.
http://vernaculars.urbunhut.com/mudlab.html

I can see this being especially important on Mars where we won't have abundant wood and the entire surface is covered in dessicated clay.  On Earth this could have applications as well, as it allows the use of an abundant natural material and DIY to create things that may otherwise be unaffordable.

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

This was my response: (#75):

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,546
Email
I am very interested in encouraging your work here.  I don't like to interfere but nobody else has showed up for this one.

The idea of turning bulk raw materials into useful things is what you have presented, and I like that.  By the way, Happy New Year.

I have a new combination to ponder on that relates to your post, it is not high creativity, but Mars may need a lot of low creation to be made more situatable to human needs and desires.

Coffee......

Pee Bricks are remembered: https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir … d-gold.htm  Quote:

Bricks Made of Urine — Our Pee Is 'Liquid Gold'
By: Jesslyn Shields

I suppose we could also do that but I was thinking of trying Acetate, perhaps with a bit of Urine for fertilizer.
I think it very likely to want to grow Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms at least with Acetate, so maybe also to make a modified pee brick including it?  It would be an energy source.  https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/  It may be that the acetate will eventually be able to assist vascular plants to grow as well.  An organic fiber would be desired.  Say Bamboo or Hemp.  So then the bricks, having organic fiber in them may also be hardened using the Pee-Acetate Microbe Method (That is not tested or proven but is suspected to be possible).  Quote:

Martian Soil Can Be Compressed Into Bricks Stronger Than Concrete
SPACE
28 April 2017
ByPETER FARQUHAR, BUSINESS INSIDER



An unusual material as you typically cannot add organic fiber to a hard brick, only a mud brick.  That being due to bricks usually needing a high heat treatment.

But of course you post about simply using mud to make bulk items it perfectly valid still.   I recall that the Martian materials can even be compressed into brick.  https://www.sciencealert.com/it-turns-o … n-concrete

So, it appears that there may be a lot of raw materials available that may be of use.

And yes you post about making things out of Mud is a good one.

I am going to collect this into my other topic under terraforming as I want to tie it with Sandstone, Volcanic Ash Deposits, and ice bodies.

Done

Last edited by Void (Today 12:00:55)

Done.

In my prior post #1554,  I suggested making water and liquid CO2 tanks on the surface out of metals, but I would like to discuss the potential of carving them into soft rocks, such as sandstone, and Volcanic Ash Deposits, and perhaps ideally those being covered with ice sheets.


Here are two topics that I want as tributary to this current line of effort:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8033
"Index» Life support systems» Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?" (The posts #74 and #75 are quoted above).
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10388
"Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)"

It appears that on Mars we may have layers of volcanic rock over layers of sediments, so I think it may be possible that we will be able to associate lava tubes with caves carved in sandstone and also in Volcanic Ash.

But in many places it may be that such things might be covered by sediments of ice and regolith and will then be masked from our discovery.  This seems more likely to be true at higher latitudes than lower latitudes.

But we have the concept of building houses from ice and plastic films which I think NASA has promoted in the past.  Here is an example: https://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-might … es-on-mars  Image Quote: NasaIcepeople.jpg
So, at mid and high latitudes, such shelters might work, they seem to say.

Maybe with care they might work at the equator, if there is ice?
Well it seems that we might see sandstone near the equator: https://www.universetoday.com/144709/th … beautiful/

But most sandstone at higher latitudes may be covered with thick ice/regolith deposits, so it cannot be seen, I suppose.

There may be well cemented sandstones and volcanic ash deposits at high latitudes because of the variable tilt of the planet in the past, so the poles may have been wet from time to time in the distant past, at least underground.

So, the game might be to build in ice and then go down to Sandstone, Volcanic Ash Deposits, and perhaps Lava Tubes that are covered with ice and regolith sediments.

Then possibly chambers to hold water and liquid CO2 might be possible.  Using the Pee-Acetate Microbe method, it may be possible to seal the walls of these into less permeable states.  Otherwise a liner would be needed.

And then finally you could do this below that: Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Returning to the surface you might have greenhouses and also solar energy methods that will likely be seasonal and subject to dust storm disruptions.  You may also have Nuclear as a backup to keep things alive in adversity.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-02 10:58:01)


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#1556 2024-01-02 10:58:43

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

If given the option a first base nearer the equator would be preferred, but water is a must.

Candor Chaos is interesting but needs verification and better definition: https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … nd-canyon/  valles-marineris-pillars.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200

And this article is also of interest: https://phys.org/news/2023-03-modern-gl … r-ice.html
Quote:

MARCH 15, 2023

Editors' notes
Modern glacier remains found near Mars equator suggest water ice possibly present today at low latitudes
by SETI Institute

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctis_Labyrinthus
Quote: 260px-Noctis_Labyrinthus_Viking_1_1980.png

But a big sheet of subsurface ice may be in the Northern Hemisphere where I think a denser atmosphere gives better protections than for the Southern Hemisphere: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-ma … hemisphere

Quote: nLMU6RaqSUm8LwGnQAcbuN-1024-80.jpg

Here is more: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02 … -missions/
Image Quote: ESP_062853_2355-800x525.jpg

What I am very interested in is the grounding line of the ice sheets.  I think it could be possible to drill, melt, evaporate tunnels on the grounding line.  Tunnels have been done in Antarctica in the past and they do sag over time, but Mars has only .38 g and may be colder ice than that.  So, sagging may not be so bad.

Some Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ic … C3&first=1

This is in Iceland: https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/eu … 92570.html  Image Quote: iceland-tunnel.jpg?quality=75&width=990&crop=3%3A2%2Csmart&auto=webp

I would not normally expect that the tunnels in ice on Mars would be strongly pressurized.  But they would possibly afford a protection from radiation and extreme cold, and in creating them a constantly renewable supply of water could be obtained.

I am in favor of below ice construction in soft rocks or in any lava tubes discovered, and also surface installations of course.  I see no reason to not tap solar energy on Mars in the absence of practical nuclear.

If you can get practical nuclear then fine do lots of that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-02 11:36:13)


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#1557 2024-01-02 16:30:04

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,484

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

1m of ice exerts a pressure of 3.38KPa on Mars.  So if the tunnel has more than 30m of ice above it, pressurising it with breathable air shouldn't present any problems.  The northern polar cap has an average thickness of 2km and is 1000km in diameter.  That is a lot of ice to tunnel through.

I am put in mind of that episode of Star Trek Enterprise when they went to Andoria.  I watched that a few weeks back.  Andoria was an M-class moon orbiting a ringed giant planet.  Temperatures got as high as -28°C in the summer.  Cities were built under the ice to take advantage of the thermal insulation it offered.  There were huge networks of tunnels branching out thousands of km.  I can imagine polar cities on Mars like that.  An eventual terraformed Ganymede or Callisto would look a lot like Andoria.  A frozen world of ice, with human cities built in icy caves.  It could be beautiful in its own way.  If we are growing all of our food in acetate solution, then it isn't much more difficult living in a place like that.  You need to keep warm obviously, but being able to produce abundant food aleviates humanity's biggest environmental pressure.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-02 16:34:13)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1558 2024-01-02 20:18:27

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Good, there are so many things that can be done to improve on that, if it is profitable.

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#1559 2024-01-04 09:21:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have had further thoughts on this.  I think the Nothern ice Mass(s), can be subdivided into 3 primary parts. 

1) Exposed and thick ice at the poles.
2) Ice south of that that receives appreciable amounts of CO2 snow/frost in the winter.
3) Ice south of that.

For #3, the southernmost ice you could also do a calculation as to its stability in the event terraforming will not cause massive mass wasting of the ice.  (Evaporation).

Anything #3 that is deemed to be the most stable would be the most desirable on average.  Such places may have some sunlight even in the winter solstice and yet would have a large water supply.

Discovery of buried minerals would be important as well, I don't think aircraft could do it, but perhaps orbital devices might be able to give clues, and then after that ground-based testing.

I have taken note of Calliban's post #1557, and visualize that in addition to a tunnel system, large buildings could be constructed to be contained in the ice in a vertical fashion, based on solid regolith and passing upwards all the way to the surface. These could be "Cold Blooded" and unpressurized to a large degree but could accommodate some pressurized and warm sections primarily in their interiors.

So, I visualize a sort of cylindrical building, so that you could use tensile bands to help hold pressure, if you did want to pressurize them in some cases, and also the ice on the sides could hold any such pressure.  On the top, any kind of gravity activated weight could give counterpressure if that is desired.  I think of Dr. Johnsons Mushroom House, or Spacenut's notion of an aquarium on top of a living space.  If the building projected a bit above the ice, then windows would allow the entry of light.  Heliostats could increase the amount of light.  I see these buildings as primarily inhabited by robots, but some sections perhaps being suitable for humans, at least at times.

One primary interest for terraforming would be to transition Mars to a climate where CO2 no longer condenses on the surface.  This transition would likely be in stages, so that the snow line for CO2 would retreat further and further north over time as terraforming methods were implemented.

As far as energy sources go, I think economics should rule.  If you can do some kind of nuclear and it is economical, then fine, do that.  Otherwise, solar should be considered to have merit, particularly if economical at times of the seasons.

Obviously geothermal and Geo batteries should be of interest.

And then orbital solar should really be looked at, as I expect that power beamed down would be very helpful, particularly in the winters.

As for the Southern Hemisphere, I expect that it will be a similar plan, except that it is mostly at a higher altitude, except for Hellas.

Done

Returning to the tunnels, if the base of the tunnels is regolith and the sides and top are icy, then it would not be that much trouble to put a tent inside with some insulating propertied.  So, as silly as it may sound you might have water canals inside of these that may be assistive in the distribution of water.  These might also support some kind of watercraft, such as canoe like devices.  And the waters themselves may support chemical aquiculture.  The water could be maintained at 0.1 degC or if a higher air pressure could be maintained, perhaps at 20 degC.  It actually is not that ridiculous.

But you could also have dry cartways, icy sled ways, and perhaps rail methods as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-04 10:01:45)


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#1560 2024-01-04 17:35:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25DYQa5FlDk
Quote:

17 Exoplanets With The Highest Chance For Alien Life

Anton Petrov

It is presented to us that perhaps Mars was somewhat Earthlike for 500 Millions years more or less, and then it became as it is now.

But there most likely would have been an ice shell ocean period, with rivers melting under glaciers, before the loss of geothermal heat ended that.

In reality what exists now has very many benefits, as you can choose where liquid water might be, and while the atmosphere is not protective enough against radiation and perhaps impactors, the Cryosphere will be.

While we may whine about the thin atmosphere, in reality especially if the atmosphere is increased from an average surface pressure of 5.5 mbar to 11 mbar, the planet may be quite good for exporting materials to space.  Not that much atmosphere to punch though, and a .38 g gravitation.

As for landing, if the average pressure is 11 mbar, that will become a bit easier.  Also with the Moons Phobos and Deimos, it would be possible to fill the Oxygen tanks in orbit, and so to give more time to hover on a landing.

It is actually a very good planet to reach out to the asteroid belt from.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-01-04 17:42:44)


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#1561 2024-01-05 09:30:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, there are two hemispheres each with higher latitude bodies of large size, and some possible low latitude water sources.  It is somewhat obvious that low latitudes are preferred to start with, then if a resource is needed such as a mineral, it might make sense to expand to the higher latitude targets.

There is this:
https://phys.org/news/2023-03-modern-gl … r-ice.html
And this:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … e-equator/
Quote:

Space
Large deposits of water found on Mars below the surface at the equator
Previous discoveries of water on Mars were limited to the poles or deep underground, but water deposits spotted near the surface at the equator could be easily accessed by future astronauts

By Alex Wilkins

So, a good place for a baby step perhaps.

But to bring Mars to its full utility, I would expect that working with the larger ice masses will be desirable.

I find this post prompts a new set of notions: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 54#p218154  (Post #33 only).

This link in particular: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 5c87&ei=20
Quote:

Solar panel breakthrough harnesses wasted light to boost efficiency
Story by Anthony Cuthbertson  •
1d

The possibility of having low pressure enclosures that still have enough protection for basic photo-life to do well.  It seems like it may be in reach and may be profitable to settlers to put these out there in the ice bodies.  The production of Methane might be desirable as an outcome from that, to modify the Martian atmosphere and thicken it by warming the planet.

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Last edited by Void (2024-01-05 10:11:24)


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#1562 2024-01-05 20:43:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am taking an interest in bogs.  Particularly arctic bogs as a starting point.

Robert Dyck has related that 100 mbar may be suitable for crop plants which are vascular.

It seems however that lichens and mosses are not vascular.  I am wondering if they can do OK at lower pressures.  I think Lichens of some types may.  Maybe some mosses.

Bogs of that type can probably tolerate freezing winters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog

While I have recently considered tunnels in the ice of Mars, on the grounding line, I wonder if we could think of a minimal living environment that could be under a minimal enclosure.  At least consider it, maybe do small experiments.

So, what if we made enclosures, transparent that never got over 50 degrees F (Sorry).  10 C then.  I choose that temperature as it is about that needed for a few weeks for conifers to have offspring.  So colder than that in the summer is Tundra then, probably low arctic but also going colder to "High Arctic".  (Referring to north latitudes I believe).
https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, an enclosure that would hold 12.2118 mbar might be close to sufficient.

In the previous post, a substance is proposed that may convert UV light to visible light and at the same time might protect portions of such an enclosure from deterioration.

However I think that higher pressures and temperatures might be reachable.

-----

I have a notion of why bogs evolved.  I think it may have to do with fire.  And so that has to do with Oxygen levels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologica … _of_oxygen  Image Quote: 630px-Oxygenation-atm-2.svg.png  Quote:

O2 build-up in the Earth's atmosphere. Red and green lines represent the range of the estimates while time is measured in billions of years ago (Ga).
Stage 1 (3.85–2.45 Ga): Practically no O2 in the atmosphere.
Stage 2 (2.45–1.85 Ga): O2 produced, but absorbed in oceans and seabed rock.
Stage 3 (1.85–0.85 Ga): O2 starts to gas out of the oceans, but is absorbed by land surfaces and formation of ozone layer.
Stages 4 and 5 (0.85 Ga–present): O2 sinks filled, the gas accumulates.[1]

Well, now I found a reference with a number in it: https://www.theguardian.com/notesandque … 32,00.html
Quote:

In % terms the most variable component of the global atmosphere over the last few billion years is probably oxygen. Initially any free oxygen reacted with free elements, particularly iron and disappeared from the atmosphere. Once this phase ended the amount of atmospheric oxygen began to rise and probably peaked at about 30% during the carboniferous, 300 million years ago, when much of the land was covered in forests and swamps. At 30% oxygen, any forest fires would have raged out of control probably setting an upper limit on the atmospheric oxygen content. The high availability of breathable oxygen probably helped get land animals established. These promptly started eating the plants and coupled to other factors the level of oxygen dropped to about 20% and has remained so ever since. The first 'proto' dinosaurs appeared about 250 million years ago so may have breathed more oxygen than we do. Too much oxygen is lethal to people but to experience elevated oxygen just take 10 deep breaths and your head will spin a bit. However, in the same way that people can adapt to low oxygen at high altitude I imagine we'd quickly adapt to more oxygen in the atmosphere.
Chris Popham, Ipplepen, UK

So, possibly bog life was as it is to try to avoid fires at 30% O2.  That atmosphere might have been thicker if the N2 and Argon were similar to the now.  There probably was a lot of precipitation and lightning.

What I am interested in is that the bog water lacks Oxygen and also the bog life desperately tries to stay moist.

Unlike the bog of those times, (Except for Alpine bogs then, perhaps), todays bogs may be more cold tolerant.

So, such bogs might be like tundra bogs with permafrost under them and only being thawed on top for a portion of the year.

They might become a source of Oxygen and biomass.  Water from ground line tunnels might be added to them from time to time.  The natural tendency of bogs to isolate produced Oxygen from the biomass will be helpful.  The biomass could be used to produce Methane by various means.

One possible way to get water to dry parts of Mars would be with Methane Pipelines.  Water pipelines may be possible as well, but Methane may be easier.

I guess then if you could efficiently pull Oxygen from the atmosphere at those locations you could burn the Methane in fuel cells to produce water.

It is not an overall solution but simply more options to add to the tool box.

Well, I got that out of my system.

And I suppose that with genetic engineering, it might be that some bog plants could be made edible.

Maybe, maybe not.

Try might work.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-05 21:29:30)


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#1563 2024-01-06 10:59:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have notions of multilayer method for inflated biological habitats.

It seems to me that it may be sensible to have perhaps 3 layers.
3) The inner layer holds pressure.
2) The next layer shields Ultraviolet.
1) The outer layer prevents the accumulation of dust on layers #2 and #3, and also sufferers abrasion.

This is something like a human skin with #1 being equivalent to the epidermis, which protects the lower layers.

But #2 may simply be draped over #3, and #1 draped over #2.  Gravity and simple fixtures to keep #2 and #3 from flying off in the wind.

#3 will experience Oxygen levels in its interior surfaces. But all other surfaces that hold air gaps will not experience high levels of Oxygen.  Thermally insulating air gaps will have small standoffs, that will contribute to the existence of such air gaps.

A currently absent member "SeaDragon" has shown how avoiding Oxygen may help plastic films be durable in the presence of UV wavelengths.

Thanks need to go out to SeaDragon:  https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8116

Re: Human missions » Construction technology for Mars? » 2020-08-01 09:13:40
SeaDragon
louis,

Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.

The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.

So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.

With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.

If we can add the following to plastic layer #2, we might have something:

This link in particular: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 5c87&ei=20
Quote:

Solar panel breakthrough harnesses wasted light to boost efficiency
Story by Anthony Cuthbertson  •
1d

So the only surface exposed to excess Oxygen would be the inner surface of #3.

As for #1, cleaning methods may be desired.  kdb512 recently discussed one where CO2 with particle phase change can clean surfaces.

The Idea of #1 is that it would be changed out periodically and the remainders of it to be recycled/repurposed to be useful some other way.

Multiple air gaps would help this three-layer plastic bubble method to hold heat.

You have to dig, but here is an additional collection of thinking on plastics and UV light damage resistance of them: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 06#p204806

While it would not be impossible to make high pressure enclosures, I am more interested in low pressure gardenening of unusual crops such as might grow in bogs, or Artic and Antarctic waters.

One purpose would be to grow free Oxygen mixtures and biomass.


Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-06 11:31:03)


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#1564 2024-01-06 21:48:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I am now at the notion that rather than melt the bulk of ground and polar ice, selective planed melting is a better path.

If on the one hand a network of ground line tunnels could be created and also on the surface also surface greenhouses, it would go very far.  Most surface greenhouses would then only work to create low pressure tundra bog, pond, and meadow types of vegetation.  These must be protected with plastic bubbles though.  They would only be melted seasonally.

But there could be exceptional types of greenhouse, where temperate plants, and also humans could be hosted.  Large buildings punching though the ice could join the underground tunnel system and the surface installations.

Below the ice in rocks, perhaps sandstone in many cases, deep undergrounds might also exist.  And if possible geothermal energy and also thermal batteries would be possible.

So, that looks good to me.

The waters surrounding Antarctica in summer can be rather life supporting even if being very cold.  With GM this should be possible as well on Mars.

And of course chemical methods to grow food would exist as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-06 21:55:10)


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#1565 2024-01-07 10:51:54

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, having a look at the characteristics of some of the ice slabs could be useful. 

Here is one: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

This appears to be more professional: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aao1619
Image Quote: 359_199_f2.jpeg
Quote:

Water ice cliffs on Mars
Some locations on Mars are known to have water ice just below the surface, but how much has remained unclear. Dundas et al. used data from two orbiting spacecraft to examine eight locations where erosion has occurred. This revealed cliffs composed mostly of water ice, which is slowly sublimating as it is exposed to the atmosphere. The ice sheets extend from just below the surface to a depth of 100 meters or more and appear to contain distinct layers, which could preserve a record of Mars' past climate. They might even be a useful source of water for future human exploration of the red planet.

Quote:

Abstract
Thick deposits cover broad regions of the Martian mid-latitudes with a smooth mantle; erosion in these regions creates scarps that expose the internal structure of the mantle. We investigated eight of these locations and found that they expose deposits of water ice that can be >100 meters thick, extending downward from depths as shallow as 1 to 2 meters below the surface. The scarps are actively retreating because of sublimation of the exposed water ice. The ice deposits likely originated as snowfall during Mars’ high-obliquity periods and have now compacted into massive, fractured, and layered ice. We expect the vertical structure of Martian ice-rich deposits to preserve a record of ice deposition and past climate.

My recollections for what was stated about regolith overburden over ice slabs was 3=30 Meters of soil.

Priors terraform notions that I am aware of are the Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars, notions.  I don't agree with them, this is to try to turn Mars into an Earth, which it is not suited to.

A better plan in my opinion is to stick closer to a harmony with what Mars seems to naturally "Want" to be like.

In my opinion mining ice on Mars with the notion of strip mining is not the way to go.  Far Easier to gunnel at the base of the ice slabs, using heat.  Two modes may be considered, 2 phase and 3 phase.

2 Phase: You would simply mimic surface behaviors of ice, and add heat, evaporate water and then collect the vapors, perhaps compressing them into a liquid tank.  No liquid phase outside of the tank would be expected.  I think that this could be mostly a robotic method.  Occasionally humans with telepresence might need to alter something, and rarely humans may need to be present.  Rock and soil embedded in the ice would simply fall to the bottom of the tunnel.  If a big rock ended up in the way, then a diversion of the tunnel path may be needed. I would not expect electric equipment to be shorted out in this situation, if proper protections are given to it.

3 Phase: Well similar but you either need to pressurize the interior of the tunnel, or have salt in the water to produce a liquid.  The liquid might be collected, or again you might just compress the water vapors into a water tank.  Electrical shorts could be a problem. 

It is obvious that Nuclear Fission could be a good way to power these activities, at least at first.  I suppose a Kilo power Reactor seems to fit the need.

Original access to the bottoms of these ice slabs would require a vertical or diagonal shaft.

I suggest a plastic dome on top of the regolith to hold a low pressure about outside ambient pressure.
Its edges can have regolith piled up on them to hold the dome down.  A hole would need to be dug in the regolith to access the top of the ice of the ice slab.

Perhaps a tripod over the hole, and a Motor cable lift to hold a Kilo power reactor.  The infrared heater attached at the bottom of the reactor.  So then evaporate your way down.  The vapors coming up could be compressed into a water tank to become liquid.  So, now you do not have to move as much regolith overburden and can activate your ice well on a need's basis.  Of course, when you got to the bottom, then you have to change the orientation of your reactor for horizontal, and you need a means of motivation and control of it as it would travel horizontal.

So, using this method, I would hope to greatly reduce the initial amount of heavy mining equipment that would be needed.  Of course the first needs are water for life support, and then water and CO2 for propellants. 

During the evaporative excavation of the vertical shaft, regolith may accumulate in the bottom of the hole, if some is embedded in the evaporating ice, so that would need periodic removal if present.

A special attachment could be used in place of the Kilo Reactor / Infrared Heater to do that from the motor cable device on the tripod.

I will stop here and suggest an alternative to fueling an entire Starship.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 11:48:14)


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#1566 2024-01-07 11:48:43

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Mars Free Return Hitch Hiking.

This is only a suggestion so don't go Rain-Man on me about it.

A method to get people off of Mars and back to Earth would be to have a Mini-Starship on the surface of Mars that you would refill, and have it launch to intercept a Free Return Starship to go back to Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-retu … 4%20km%2Fs.
Quote:

The Hohmann transfer orbit can be made free-return. It takes 250 days (0.68 years) in the transit to Mars, and in the case of a free-return style abort without the use of propulsion at Mars, 1.5 years to get back to Earth, at a total delta-v requirement of 3.34 km/s.

Every method considered has risk and rewards, and costs.  I am not saying it is "The" way to do, it rather that is a "A" way to do it, which reduces the immediate burden of propellant production to get humans and samples back to Earth.

And I am not even sure it is practical.  I just mention it so that it can be examined.  I would also say that with modifications, such as drop tanks for the initial burn to head to Mars, allowing for bigger header tanks, the process could be modified to be of a shorter duration???

If you really wanted to be risk takers, your Mini-Starship would not have the means to land on Earth, so then reduced mass, but if you could not get them to a Free-Return Starship to bring them back, then they will die.

Done

We probably do want samples brought back from Mars, but if possible we want to keep the people sent to Mars on Mars.
Similarly if a Starship is landed on Mars, then more likely it is most valuable if it stays on Mars.

So, we might want a special small ship to intercept a Free Return Starship.

Done

So, two types of people are needed.  Those who want to risk a probably permanent stay on Mars, or at least a very extended stay on Mars, and those who will risk the modified Free Return Method.

After all we have killed lots of test pilots, and military people for a worthy cause, and also for unworthy causes.  High Risk, High Rewards, if you do the task, I would say.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 12:05:33)


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#1567 2024-01-07 12:23:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Maybe this could be called an Active Freeloader Return.

When I say Drop Tanks, perhaps something could be substituted such as a Starship to boost a Starship, so that it can have very large internal tanks for returning to Earth.  Bigger Header Tanks then, and a lack of ability to get to Mars without a boost from another Starship or a Nuclear booster.  With large Header Tanks, then the ability to do a modification of a swing game, maybe swinging around Mars, and perhaps somehow involving a swing around Venus, possibly on the way out to Mras, or on the way back from Mars.

And I want to open another possibility.  If it can swing by Venus on the way back and then go to Earth it might do a Ballistic Capture.

If this were a Starship not intended to land, then it would not need legs or a heat shield (If you did the Ballistic Capture method, Mars>Venus>BC to Earth).

Your samples would then not land immediately on Earth, which some may consider a risk, and then of course then you have to take passengers into another ship, perhaps Dreem Chaser or a Starship of Mini-Starship.

I am just trying to loosen up notions, to escape from the quagmire of established dogmas, which might want reexamining.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 12:30:28)


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#1568 2024-01-07 13:20:21

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The method would resemble Cycling Spaceships, Free Return, and Active Thrusting in combination, possibly also involving gravitational boosts, and maybe even Ballistic Capture.

It would not be risk free, but then intending to setup a mining operation and to create enough propellants for a return trip of Starship from Mars surface, is not at all risk free either.

It has been said "You may die".  Be aware of the risks then.  Most of us think that everyone sheds their body (Dies) sooner or later anyway.  You don't know, a risk that pays off badly may save you from a worse death later.

Actually, very good chances of that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 13:23:04)


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#1569 2024-01-07 13:24:16

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now as for tundra domes on the surface of the ice sheets.

The post #1563 & #1564 as a reference: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p218208

There are various schemes with this, but air gaps in an atmosphere of ~5.5 mbar should have some of the characteristics of a thermos bottle.  I am hoping that when the sun shines there can be a tendency for water to be liquid in the interior.

The pressures can be quite low, but the lower the pressure the less likely a organism could grow in such an environment.
You might have a pond where ice usually covers it.
You might have an open water pond.
You might have a bog ecology of some kind.
And then you might actually go to environments that could be more hospitable to an expanded list of plants.

But you would want the thermal budget of the bottom of the pond to keep it frozen year around, or you would need a liner of some kind on the bottom, the keep the water and pressure inside.  So you would want the interiors to freeze up some of the year.  And this is likely possible on Mars, in the wintertime.  There would be a preference for icy permafrost to be at the bottom of such structures.

I have already indicated that I am not allergic to nuclear power.  But I have little problem with solar either, if it is used in a proper manner.  Photovoltaic, and also Solar Thermal.

Heliostat robots may participate in both types and might do both alternately as desired.  Various methods of thermal batteries might be employed on Mars.  The solar methods would likely merge into robotics.

A method of interest would be where a heliostat could be directed to point at a solar panel at times and to a thermal collector at other times.

The domes I have spoken of might even be warmed by output from a solar thermal or photovoltaic method.

Flexibility would be productive, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 13:39:22)


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#1570 2024-01-07 20:51:29

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As for inflating the CO2 into the atmosphere, that could be a thing that would be throttled.

In the early days of Mars, Mars may be useful to get mass to orbit from, by various means, possibly including mass drivers.

Later when settlements may have been established in many places in the solar system, such as the asteroids, that priority may become outdated, and instead the emphasis would be to inflate the atmosphere as much as possible.

But still I don't like the idea of "Blue Mars" as has been presented.  For Mars leaving the ice slabs largely un-melted allows
the continuous procurement of replacement water by honeycombing the slabs with tunnels. Those tunnels may be of some use in various ways, perhaps in some cases to store life support materials.

So, I would hesitate to melt Mars to the point of raging rivers and seas/oceans.

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#1571 2024-01-09 08:50:48

Void
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Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Sometimes I pirate materials from another member because I want to take into another direction: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p218278
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,125
Email
On the topic of Phobos, the wiki article on the moon notes that it appears to be covered with thick layers of fine regolith.  This may have near term application as propellant for the large ship that Robert is developing.

I have already written about using fibre lasers to vapourise this material and accelerating the resultant plasma using an arc jet.  There are three problems with this idea: (1) Even fibre lasers are relatively inefficient and power hungry; (2) If the propellant does not vaporise uniformly, the reaction chamber and laser optics could end up being peppered with molten rock particles; (3) Oxygen ions in the plasma, would attack the arcjet cathode, limiting its life.

An alternative would be a modified VASIMR engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variabl … sma_Rocket

We inject pellets consisting of 10% water ice and 90% micron sized regolith fines.  Radio frequency generators would heat the water to millions of Kelvin, forming a plasma of hydrogen and oxygen ions.  The micron sized dust particles would be vaporised by molecular collision and radiated heat.  The resulting mixed plasma is contained away from the engine walls by a strong solenoid static magnetic field.  This functions as an expansive engine nozzle at the rear of the engine.

With an exhaust velocity of 50km/s, a large ship should be able to fly from low Mars orbit to LEO and back on a single propellant load.  This would allow Phobos regolith to become the source of some 90% of propellant reaction mass.  The other 10% can be recycled black water from the ship.  This is convenient, because Phobos L1 point is only about 1km above Stickney crater.  The large ship could dock there on its return flight to Earth.  It should therefore be simple to refill the ship with propellant dust from a small facility on Phobos.

Last edited by Calliban (Today 09:14:12)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I wish to turn this into a mining and material beneficiation method.  In the end the hope is that the "Tailings" could still be a dust to be used in some way, and that the beneficiated or extracted substances could have their own uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_group
Quote:

Surface of the Moon
In 2009, India's Chandrayaan-1 satellite and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Cassini spacecraft and Deep Impact probe each detected evidence of water by evidence of hydroxyl fragments on the Moon. As reported by Richard Kerr, "A spectrometer [the Moon Mineralogy Mapper, also known as "M3"] detected an infrared absorption at a wavelength of 3.0 micrometers that only water or hydroxyl—a hydrogen and an oxygen bound together—could have created."[7] NASA also reported in 2009 that the LCROSS probe revealed an ultraviolet emission spectrum consistent with hydroxyl presence.[8]

On 26 October 2020, NASA reported definitive evidence of water on the sunlit surface of the Moon, in the vicinity of the crater Clavius (crater), obtained by the Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy (SOFIA).[9] The SOFIA Faint Object infrared Camera for the SOFIA Telescope (FORCAST) detected emission bands at a wavelength of 6.1 micrometers that are present in water but not in hydroxyl. The abundance of water on the Moon's surface was inferred to be equivalent to the contents of a 12-ounce bottle of water per cubic meter of lunar soil.[10]

The Chang'e 5 probe, which landed on the Moon on 1 December 2020, carried a mineralogical spectrometer that could measure infrared reflectance spectra of lunar rock and regolith. The reflectance spectrum of a rock sample at a wavelength of 2.85 micrometers indicated localized water/hydroxyl concentrations as high as 180 parts per million.[11]

To put it simply I want to use solar heat and Hydrogen from Mars, to treat dust in a microgravity enclosure.

I don't care to invest too much effort in this picture, so I did not: PLJp04O.png

I will suggest that the window is ALUM, (Transparent Aluminum): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride
The atmosphere inside of the oven will be Hydrogen, Hydroxyl, and water, at a very low pressure.  The Hydrogen is presumed to come from Mars.  The Oxygen in other molecules is presumed to have been extracted from fine dust from Phobos, Deimos, or an asteroid, (Maybe our Moon).

The desire is not to cause the dust to clump together or melt together, rather, to have Hydrogen and heat pull Oxygen from the fine particles.  If successful and if the treated dust drops in temperature below the curie point, then it may become magnetic.  So that material may collect to a DC magnetic field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature

Iron and Nickle may be attracted to an AC magnetic field also.
Other metals might react to an AC magnetic field, but I am not sure that things like metal Aluminum or other metals will emerge with the reduction of Oxygen from the dust.

Maintaining dust fluidity will be rather desirable otherwise, I expect.

Possibly electrostatic force may be able to keep dust separate from each other, if you could impose a (+) charge on the oven by shooting (-) electrons away from it, but I am not sure.  I expect molecular vibrations may help also at high temperatures.  I do not want any liquid phase of any kind inside of the oven.  It is desirable to keep the dust as dust, except if you collect metals to a magnetic field, and even then as dust, but collected.

How to extract the produced water will be tricky, maybe a freezer (Not shown), takes in filtered gasses and water and perhaps Hydroxyl condense in it, (As ice, not liquid), and then the remnant Hydrogen is shunted back to the oven.

If there were Hydrogen and Carbon of some sort already in the raw materials, then those might be extracted as compounds also.

Another trick to keep the dust suspended would be to vibrate the whole oven assembly, and also to have brushes to keep the window clean on the inside.

This then provides various resources, if it works, that will support ships that do not land but arrive from Earth and to support ships that do land.

For instance, a Starship does not then need to go to orbit with Oxygen to land with but could fill up prior to a landing on Mars.

Again, this may also work for asteroids.  I would not mind having some comments from members on this.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-09 09:37:45)


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#1572 2024-01-09 10:03:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now to redirect a post from another topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p218262
Quote:

Let's Consider a Magnetic Balloon: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 37#p217237

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xyBT70sB4
Quote:

NSS Space Forum - July 14, 2022 - Fast Solar Wind Sailing with Jeff Greason

National Space Society
12.4K subscribers

It still has to be proved to work in space, but looks interesting.

You could center the field on an object or place it on a tether.  If on a tether you could turn it on and off to either be pushed to spin something up or down in spin speed.

If more centered on an object, then you could generally drag an object outwards in the solar system.

So, the hope would be to gather Mars crossing asteroids to Mars orbits.

I am not currently a fan of crashing asteroids into Mars myself.  My hope would be to be able to nudge objects into the Mars gravity well to be sucked in by Ballistic Capture.  Not sure I understand enough about that.

But then you could clear some dangerous asteroids, and also build stuff in Martian orbits from them.

Done

I am going to watch the video again.

OK, I have reviewed enough of it.  The device is thought to "Probably Work" in the space environment so it is not totally proven yet.

The solar system seems to push small asteroids into paths that may be in the terrestrial planets areas.
Mars Crossing Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
If the magnetic bubble drive works, then we have an engine to perhaps make these objects more react to the solar wind and also perhaps to react to the gravitation of Mars.

These asteroids have a Perihelion that is likely closer to the sun than that of Mars and may have an Aphelion that can be made to approach Mars.

When the asteroid is heading to Perihelion then the magnetic field may be used to brake against the solar wind, altering the Aphelion more.  If the asteroid is heading towards its Aphelion, then the solar wind may aid the energy of Aphelion.

It may be possible to get an asteroid to synchronize with Mars so that you could in addition do gravitational passes to adjust the asteroids path.

Ultimately it may be desired to try to do a Ballistic Capture of the asteroid to Mars orbit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

Upon such a capture, the object is likely to eventually then leave Mars orbit, but you still have the Magnetic Bubble Drive so you might be able to alter the orbit to become permanent.  This will of course alter the orbit of Mars a tiny bit so that has to be given an eyeball to make sure the solar system is not being pushed into chaos.  I think it unlikely, but still it needs consideration.

An alternative to Ballistic Capture would be to hold the asteroid as an associated object of Mars, keep it in a repeating association.  A sort of Cycling Spaceship, but not for any other planet at Perihelion, just to be a world of its own.  A solar space station.  Spaceships from it could do a Ballistic Capture to Mars from time to time, and might bring resources in that way, or ships might bring things from Mars to the asteroid.

The asteroids will have fine and coarse materials.  The previous post suggests what to do with the fines.  The big chunks may or may not be processed. perhaps they would be anchored together to make a shell of protection for space objects constructed within that cage.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-09 10:21:56)


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#1573 2024-01-09 16:14:11

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I found an "Outer Grazer" that is "M" type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/132_Aethra
Quote:

132 Aethra
Aethra (minor planet designation: 132 Aethra) is a metallic asteroid and Mars-crosser on an eccentric orbit from the asteroid belt. It measures approximately 40 kilometers in diameter.

That's a pretty big chunk of metals.

Quote:

Observation arc    142.50 yr (52049 d)
Aphelion    3.6250 AU (542.29 Gm)
Perihelion    1.5895 AU (237.79 Gm)
Semi-major axis    2.6073 AU (390.05 Gm)
Eccentricity    0.39036
Orbital period (sidereal)    4.21 yr (1537.7 d)

So, interesting.  I think though that Stony Asteroids may have a better distribution of materials.  And there are a lot of those.  They may be expected to have a bit of water in some of their materials, perhaps near and on the surfaces.  This might be from the solar wind and also cosmic dust.

There will be some carbonaceous asteroids that approach Mars, but they are rather rare.

I don't think that you could ballistically capture these outer grazers, but you might aerobrake ores from them in the Martian atmosphere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-09 16:21:14)


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#1574 2024-01-11 12:02:50

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As I sometimes do, I am incorporating some materials from another topic, as I want to take it into another direction:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10671
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,141
Email
There is an old topic on basalt fibres, but we don't appear to have one on cast basalt.  This material is finding increasing uses as corrosion resistant rebar in concrete, wear resistant tiles and pipe linings.  The more I read about it, the more impressed I am with its capabilities.  It has an obvious advantage over other materials on Mars in that its feedstock is available almost everywhere.

The moon society produced the following document proposing this material as ideal for lunar use due to its abundance.
https://www.moonsociety.org/wp-content/ … bound4.pdf

Basalt melts at temperatures of 1175 - 1350°C, depending on composition.  For fibre production, the melt is typically heated to 1500°C to reduce viscosity.  However, for large components like slabs, blocks and tiles, lower temperatures could be used.  This would allow basalt to be cast in steel cased sand molds.  On Mars, we could produce compressive structural members from cast basalt.  Ideally, we would want to be able to mass produce a single, repeatable structural unit.  Multiples of these would then be slotted together using dowel pins to form geodesic domes.  These domes can then be covered in a thin layer of polyethylene sheeting and then covered with several metres of overburden before being pressurised.

If we could design a machine that could melt and injection mold these standardised repeatable units at a rate of thousands per hour, that would be a key step to making cheap habitable volume on Mars.  We could build 50m diameter habitation domes in just a few days.

Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 10:03:15)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

At the time of this post, the last post on that topic was #21.

The use of bulk attainable materials on Mars to benefit the habitation of Mars is the objective here.  I consider the buried ice of Mars to be such a raw material.  Callibans work provides for objects of Basalt to help make that into a resource for humans and their machines to use.

I will list a few articles about the ice:
https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/plane … s-new-map/
Image Quote: 1-pia26045-swim-map-shows-subsurface-water-ice-on-mars.png?resize=1200,696

The above is about the Northern Hemisphere, I think another study is under way for the Southern Hemisphere.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … ploration/
Image Quote: SWIM-Mars-Water.jpg

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aao1619
Quote:

Water ice cliffs on Mars
Some locations on Mars are known to have water ice just below the surface, but how much has remained unclear. Dundas et al. used data from two orbiting spacecraft to examine eight locations where erosion has occurred. This revealed cliffs composed mostly of water ice, which is slowly sublimating as it is exposed to the atmosphere. The ice sheets extend from just below the surface to a depth of 100 meters or more and appear to contain distinct layers, which could preserve a record of Mars' past climate. They might even be a useful source of water for future human exploration of the red planet.

Quote:

One-third of the Martian surface contains shallow ground ice. This ice is a critical target for science and exploration: it affects modern geomorphology, is expected to preserve a record of climate history, influences the planet’s habitability, and may be a potential resource for future exploration. The extent of Martian ground ice and the depth to the ice table have been predicted in theory (1–3) and have been tested both in situ (4) and from orbital observations (5–11). However, the vertical structure of subsurface ice remains poorly known, including its layering, thickness, and purity, which record its emplacement and subsequent modification processes. Information about the structure, depth, and purity of shallow ice is also required to plan possible in situ resource utilization (ISRU) on future missions (12).

And then there is this older article: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:

To look at ice hidden beneath the Martian surface, Bramson and her colleagues focused on strange craters in a region called Arcadia Planitia. This area lies in the mid-latitudes of Mars, analogous to Earthly latitudes falling between the U.S.-Canadian border and Kansas.

Kansas is at about the latitude of Spain in fact.

So, factors that make that location on Mars different then Spain for sunlight are:
1) Farther from the sun, so about 1/2 sunlight when no dust storm.
2) More UV gets though the atmosphere.
3) Dust Storms block light about once every 3 years, on Mars.

Even so, if possible, an initial settlement on Mars might well be even closer to the equator if reliable water can be established to exist at such a location.

It would be sensible to have both Nuclear and Solar energy developments at such settlements.

I have been promoting the idea of evaporating or melting water tunnels in this ice to place vertical buildings in, and also at the grounding line of the ice sheets in a horizontal fashion.

Early on an interesting option might be possible: Hight of Starship?
https://www.spacex.com/vehicles/starshi … 20397%20ft
Quote:

121 m / 397 ft
Starship is the world’s most powerful launch vehicle ever developed, capable of carrying up to 150 metric tonnes fully reusable and 250 metric tonnes expendable. HEIGHT 121 m / 397 ft

Well, lets say you landed a Starship that was not intended to return to space.  You took off the flaps and motors perhaps, and maybe took out some of the engines.  Then you evaporated a hole in an ice slab.  Then you filled that Starshp up just enough to hover a bit off the ground move sideways and then drop into that hole.  If you tried to fill the gap between the Starship and the hole, I would expect that a liquid fill would be wrong as it would expand.  You might fill it with chipped ice, or you might do a vapor to ice freeze to fill the gap.

Then the walls are reenforced by the ice and you have a pretty good radiation shelter.

If you wanted to put some ice or water in the upper portions of the starship to improve the radiation shelter you could.  Almost all primary and secondary solar radiation would likely be blocked, and most GCR would be blocked.

Of course, you then need to modify the interior of the Starship to host doors and an elevator to get up and down in the thing.  From the base of the Starship, you could make exits to get at the ground line of the ice slab.  Then you may begin harvesting ice on the ground line making tunnels and also of course capturing water.

All of this sounds rather cold, but in the Starship and the Ground line tunnels you may make insulated buildings and may use heat pumps to pull heat from the cold sections and push it into the warm sections.  This would primarily be to keep the ice surfaces cold, so that they do not melt or deform.  You could also have Nuclear Heat and Solar Heat, maybe even geothermal heat.

Later on more vertical buildings could be made but they might be made of local materials, such as Callibans Basalt parts.

Not all things would be in the verticals or the ground line horizontals, there could be constructions on the surface of the ice slabs as well.  Solar energy and greenhouses.

Various means may be available to keep ice tunnels from sagging.  Basalt parts, maybe other things, such as inflated plastic bladders.  I anticipate that it will be possible to grow the equivalent of wood, so then perhaps Pykrete.

A preferred interior pressure might be 2/3 bar but I would think that for some sections 1/3 bar might be used.

The point is it may be possible to build an entire network of this structure over a great part of the Northern Hemisphere, and perhaps also the Southern Hemisphere.

Below the ice geothermal or at least geo batteries may be developed.  Drilling wells.  If any lava tubes are discovered under the ice then they may be utilized.  Also, in soft rocks such as sandstone or volcanic ash, habitat space might be dug very deep.  Very large warm vaults may be possible.

That is a lot to digest for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-11 13:09:10)


Done.

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#1575 2024-01-11 13:22:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,213

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is a very timely video, but I lost my internet about 3/4 of the way though it so I have not seen the end of it:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

They make a point of the effort that must have been needed to dig these tunnels, but on Mars in a greater partial vacuum, a bit of heat would sublimate the ice, and then a pump could compress it into a liquid.  You would be "Drinking" yourself some spaces that could be pressurized.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-11 13:26:33)


Done.

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