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#1451 2023-11-07 23:43:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

iaHcUWu.png

A diagram of what I described in the last post.  I seem to have not added it to the post.

Three Torus, two of water and one of air.

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#1452 2023-11-08 22:00:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I guess I will be the strange one who wants stuff in the Martian sky.  I will talk about water pressurization in spin gravity but something else has surfaced in my mind that has some relationship to a Starship moving up and down on Mars.  Primarily, I am curious about the size of the flaps.  But heat shield concerns matter as well.

An interplanetary Starship with flaps and heat shield, perhaps has a different challenge for each entry process.  That is LEO to surface on Earth is one thing.  Earth>Mars is another, Mars>Earth is another.  And I also want Mars surface to Mars orbits and back again.  I am sure that the Interplanetary Surface Landing Starship has to be built to do all of these things, except what I want in addition, the ability to land from Martian orbit to the surface. 

The question is, if a Starship was to be used only for the transit from surface to orbit and back again, its flaps and heat shield might be a bit different.  It might be that the flaps could be made larger, so that the terminal velocity on landing would be reduced.  I am thinking that the motors could handle larger flaps as deorbit from Mars orbit into the thin atmosphere of Mars may permit it.  In that case the ship would have more surface area so the heat shield would not be challenged as much so it may last longer, or even be less costly.

The penalty for larger flaps is to add dry mass, but the gravity of Mars is .38 g, and the atmosphere is >1/100th that of Earth.

And in the scheme, I have, of using Phobos and Deimos, there would be no need to lift Oxygen to orbit as it would come from the regolith of the two moons. A further turn of fortune would be if the moons do hole Carbon in sufficient quantity for fuel purposes.  Then of course Carbon does not have to be lifted.  And then if we somehow find water in those moons, then all propellants could be manufactured on them.

But for now, I am supposing that Hydrogen would be lifted to make fuel in orbit.  If necessary, then indeed also Carbon, but we can be assured that Oxygen can come from Phobos and Deimos. 

But my current bet is that Hydrogen would by far be the largest amount of up mass.  As we are to send stuff to Mars, then there may not be much other up mass to come from Mars to its orbits.

Knowing all this then the Oxygen and Methane tanks may change size and also there probably is a desire for a Hydrogen tank to carry cargo to orbit.

Now as for down mass to come from the Earth/Moon, the more propellants that can come from Phobos and Deimos, the better.  So then mass from the Earth/Moon loaded onto the ships then the ships refilled with propellants from Phobos/Deimos, to be able to land with s safety margin of extra propellants, I would hope.

As the ships would do up with relatively little mass, and would not then go to Earth, the amount of propellant needed to get a ship to Mars orbit would be reduced.

I is not known if Mars/Phobos/Deimos could export plastics to our Moon, but I certainly would be pleased if it could.

I think most bulk transfers would be using an electric propulsion as a slow boat, but that could be sent off with a boost using a Nuclear Thermal ship if that would be desired.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-08 22:27:38)


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#1453 2023-11-08 22:51:49

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, this may give some notion of how I think a water filled torus might work.  I a fair amount of description in this image.

p8v38BJ.png

Maybe some more tomorrow.

The warm water would be for farming but if you wanted you could have something growing in the cold water, I think.

Instead of warm water in the "Dome", you could have just air, but then that stresses the dome more.  It would have to be stronger.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-08 22:53:42)


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#1454 2023-11-09 08:00:50

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Borrowing from and trying to build on this item that I really like: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres  Image Quote: satellite-1.jpg

It has occurred to me to visualize that the surface that the two light arrows point to could be thought of as resembling a honeycomb from a beehive.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycomb  Image Quote: 240px-Bienenwabe_mit_Eiern_und_Brut_5.jpg

General Search for "Honeycomb Images": https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ho … =0&first=1

So, in a previous post a "Cell" made of a sintered regolith cylinder with tensile wrapper: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 04#p215704, is shown to hold three torus inside.  iaHcUWu.png

In this post a more generalized depiction: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 96#p215696
Quote:

So, then a Sintered Jar like this might host things inside of it: OKGVGlj.png

Here is another type of "Cell": HkHsPmH.png

You could put a spinning cylinder inside of it for synthetic gravity.  I would imagine these to be slow moving and not spinning in a vacuum, but another version could be fast spinning in a greater partial vacuum.

So, there would be plenty of opportunity for low g and microgravity situations in a cell.

If you have spinning elements, then you have to worry about the prevention and toleration of centrifugal explosions.

Anyway, lots of room for the imagination, and lots of interesting structure.

If the "Honeycomb" is positioned edge on to the sun as a source of radiation, then the honeycomb cells may be protected by adjacent cells.

As for GCR, then you would apply supplemental methods.  Magnetic or mass methods to handle that radiation problem.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-09 08:35:31)


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#1455 2023-11-09 10:46:02

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Something like this could be how may "cells" are structured.

lEWRvt3.png

I you have the ten tensile wrapped Regolith Shell, then you could put a cylinder in it with open ends, that could spin.  It might have hover skirting hanging from its end, and a bit of pressurized air would center it.  Or you might have it ride on magnetic rails.

The spin rate would be slow enough that you are not going to have air friction problems so bad that you could not tolerate them.

So, the first step is sanitary gravity simulation.  You want the things that are not desired to float to not float.  For instance your dog its pee and its droppings.

As for a motion sickness, maybe the gravity could be high enough to handle that, but I anticipate that it may be possible to do some kind of cybernetic implant/bypass to work on and around the inner ear.  Then, I guess training might help a great bit.

Maybe smile

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-09 10:52:47)


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#1456 2023-11-09 20:51:01

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Reviewing the two notions of a honeycomb of jars in free orbit, and a honeycomb of jars on a pole of Phobos or Deimos, I think the polar locations will be better for handling radiation.  From one direction the moons block radiation, so that is a plus.  Also, much of the raw materials are in those moons.

Also, it seems somewhat likely that these moons may more easily allow for underground structure that may be true for most places on Mars itself, and those might be quite protected from the hard space environment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars
Quote:

The high porosity of the interior of Phobos (based on the density of 1.88 g/cm 3, voids are estimated to comprise 25 to 35 percent of Phobos' volume) is inconsistent with an asteroidal origin. Observations of Phobos in the thermal infrared suggest a composition containing mainly phyllosilicates , which are well … See more


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Quote:

The regolith is highly porous and has a radar-estimated density of only 1.471 g/cm3. [25] Escape velocity from Deimos is 5.6 m/s. [6] This velocity could theoretically be achieved by a human performing a vertical jump. [26] [27] The apparent magnitude of Deimos is 12.45. [8] Named geological features See more

Quote:

Physical characteristics
Like most bodies of its size, Deimos is highly non-spherical with triaxial dimensions of 16.1 km × 11.8 km × 10.2 km (10.0 mi × 7.3 mi × 6.3 mi), corresponding to a mean diameter of 12.5 km (7.8 mi) which makes it about 57% the size of Phobos.[7] Deimos is composed of rock rich in carbonaceous material, much like C-type asteroids and carbonaceous chondrite meteorites.[24] It is cratered, but the surface is noticeably smoother than that of Phobos, caused by the partial filling of craters with regolith.[citation needed] The regolith is highly porous and has a radar-estimated density of only 1.471 g/cm3.[25]

Escape velocity from Deimos is 5.6 m/s.[6] This velocity could theoretically be achieved by a human performing a vertical jump.[26][27] The apparent magnitude of Deimos is 12.45.[8]

So, at this time Phobos is thought to be of Phyllosilicates and Deimos perhaps, (Just maybe) Carbon rich rocks.  (And I hope with some Hydrogen, but no proof).

Phyllosilicates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Phyllosilicates
Quote:

Phyllosilicates are sheet Silicate minerals, formed by parallel sheets of silicate tetrahedra with Si2O5 in a 2:5 ratio.

Having lots of Oxygen is not a bad thing.  But as I looked further these are mica and clays it seems.  I inquired about water in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicate_mineral
Quote:

Phyllosilicates (from Greek φύλλον phýllon 'leaf'), or sheet silicates, form parallel sheets of silicate tetrahedra with Si2O5 or a 2:5 ratio. The Nickel–Strunz classification is 09.E. All phyllosilicate minerals are hydrated, with either water or hydroxyl groups attached. Examples include: Serpentine … See more

So, hurray for that, as the protons from the solar wind seep into Phobos, and are likely to be adsorbed, I think.

https://www.space.com/38530-solar-wind- … hobos.html
Quote:

Phobos orbits incredibly close to Mars, and since it has no atmosphere and no magnetosphere it plows directly through streams of solar wind and absorbs the electrically charged particles on its dayside. This, in turn, leaves a void over its nightside. As a result, negatively charged electrons from the solar wind fill this void and statically charge the moon's nightside. This same effect also occurs in other large shadowed areas on Phobos, such as Stickney crater, according to the study, which was published Oct. 3 in the journal Advances in Space Research.

So, in addition to the possibility that Phobos can be somewhat Hydrated, I think this might be a path to a power supply, if you can shunt electric charges from one location to another.

And maybe Deimos will have some Carbon to use???  Big hope, if it is like a C-type asteroid.
https://nineplanets.org/c-type-asteroids/
Quote:

Composition
The C-type asteroids consist of clay, minerals, and silicate rocks, and are dark in appearance. They are carbonaceous – a large amount of carbon – and since they are far away from the Sun, they have been the least altered by heat, this also testifies their old age.

There might be hydration for Deimos also, maybe.

At any rate my guess is since both moons appear to be battered, in the past they were hit by various smaller objects and some of those could have been C type materials and be incorporated into a mix.

But even without hydration and Carbon, those can be gotten from Mars itself.  I just would rather that the moons would have it.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-09 21:25:09)


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#1457 2023-11-10 06:56:36

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

A possible way to Para Terraform Phobos and Deimos: aeQjtj5.png

The rings will not be as easy to radiation protect as the polar Honeycombs of jars.

But I think it has lots of potential.

The rings and scaffolding could extend beyond the hill spheres of the moons Phobos and Deimos.

Done

It is sort of this again with a small moon in the center:

https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres  Image Quote: satellite-1.jpg


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Last edited by Void (2023-11-10 06:59:27)


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#1458 2023-11-10 08:20:39

Void
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Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

What is becoming apparent to me is that this would be a blending of modifications of several recent ideas.
-Megasatellites
-Sintering Regolith
-Wrapping a cylinder of regolith with a tensile web.  (I prefer the cylinder be sintered and then wrapped)
-Building habitat inside of a Martian moon.  (This has been considered for Deimos at least).

But I think that the results of this blending could be very good, I feel.

And it might be a precursor to moving on to asteroids over time.

Done

Just some stuff:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … or_deimos/

I think I recall a member named Hop: http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2015/0 … solar.html
Really looks like good stuff.

https://www.universetoday.com/143438/wa … nd-deimos/

https://space.nss.org/wp-content/upload … Phobos.pdf

Mining: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/phobo … f/7015.pdf

OK Then, habitat inside of Deimos: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/safest-be … on-deimos/
Image Quote: 190910-deimos2-630x487.jpg
Quote:

Jim Logan, a former NASA flight surgeon who is the co-founder of the Space Enterprise Institute, lays out his plan for putting a space settlement inside the Martian moon Deimos. (GeekWire Photo / Alan Boyle)

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-10 08:36:18)


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#1459 2023-11-11 06:57:55

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just a few odds and ends in this post.  Here are a bunch of links that are dealing with bedrest and small doses of artificial gravity and exercise:

How bedrest and cycling in artificial gravity is being tested to aid human spaceflight
written by Bella Richards June 7, 2023

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2023/06 … aceflight/

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … pergravity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192329/

https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/on … aving-bed/

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 76926/full

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 21-04673-w

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24861908/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10439060/

There are some limited positive results.

I was surprised to see that they have to decline the bedrest with the head down 6% to simulate microgravity exposure reactions for the body.  I had wondered why since people go to bed all the time, why the body could not handle microgravity.  I guess the body's limits are exceeded.

But this suggests that if you have synthetic gravity in microgravity then a small amount might be equivalent to laying down, and the body would tolerate that for periods of time in a day.

Two forms of rest that humans engage in daily are laying down and sitting, and for most people that is most of the day.  So, if there is such a thing as "Body Null" gravity, that would be laying down and sitting i would guess.

So, just guessing, then:
Microgravity is about 0 g, but body reacts as if it is - 6% of 1 g?
Null Gravity is 6% g but the body reacts as if it is Null g.
Perceptual Upright gravity is about 15% of a g.  (That is up/down perception).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153541/
Quote:

The 50% threshold for centrifuge-simulated gravity's ability to influence the perceptual upright was at around 0.15 g, close to the level of moon gravity but much higher than the threshold for detecting linear acceleration along the long axis of the body. This observation may partially explain the instability of moonwalkers but is good news for future missions to Mars.

And then there is sanitary gravity.  How does plumbing work in a partial gravity simulation?

It seems that a lot of agriculture could be done in microgravity, using robots, and so that will probably be a good way to go.

But I would like to know if it is practical to have a spinning drum inside of a cylinder that gives a satisfactory partial gravity that does not required a strong vacuum.  So, a balance between spin rate and air pressure to avoid too much heating and energy losses.  So then if you could have that you could have space that a human might occupy a certain part of a day, a certain number of hours.

I guess these things will be discovered over time.

Done

That leads to an interesting idea, a drum within a drum, within a drum and so on.

So, Microgravity>.2 g>.4 g>.6 g>.8 g>1g

One pressure holding shell for Microgravity and then 5 sequentially nested shells to bring the gravitation up to what level is necessary.

I am not sure it is a practical way to go, but an interesting notion.

If you had a ~2/3 bar mix of N2/O2 then that is less drag than for 1 bar.

While it may have drawbacks, you are getting 6 "Floor Spaces" inside of one pressurized shell.  But you would have to work on issues of heating and air drag, and safety as well.  Bearings also.

Might be more practical if you don't actually need 1 g to keep people healthy long term, then less differential gravity between shells.

But yes, just a fun thought vision, other pathways may be better.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-11 07:29:54)


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#1460 2023-11-12 09:55:43

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Post #1454:

Reviewing this from post #1454, I want to suggest some optional features: Here is another type of "Cell": HkHsPmH.png

The concave, (On the outside, "Windows"), could easily be sunlight concentrating mirrors getting light from other mirrors further away.

Also, borrowing from Isaac Arthurs notions about the Moon perhaps it could be a set of mirrors that send a focus though a very small window(s).  In such a case if the window breaks, then a automatic door is intended to seal the breach.

But it could be a window, and just a window.

The assembly depicted is a sintered regolith/waste rock shell wrapped in a tensile wrapper, with the two window/mirror features.

But we might put a liner inside of that.  And that liner could be of a metal or a plastic, and to some degree be inflatable.

So Ductile, Malleable, and Inflatable are qualities that may be desired for the liner.

We could fille the liner with water, as aquaculture might be possible and radiation protection would be favored.

And we could put another inflatable inside of that and fill it with air.

Or we could have specially fitted water bags that would be imposed over the inside of each window/mirror assembly.  That could leave a air gap between the two end water bags, where you could have microgravity thing.  And if desired you could be a spinner in that space to make low g force synthetic gravity.

Post #1455:

Something like this, (Water bags not shown):lEWRvt3.png

One thing about the proposed fitted water bags, is that in the event of a rupture of the window/mirror assembly, the bags may reduce the rate of depressurization as they may deform to block the air flow.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-12 10:13:17)


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#1461 2023-11-14 17:31:39

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I was very happy to see Dr. Johnson's post here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 69#p215869

Quote:

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,227
Email Website
It is beginning to look like what I sized for a suborbital Mars rocket hopper capable of reaching almost halfway around the planet,  could also serve as a low-orbit taxi,  including rendezvous chase to match-up orbital positioning with some in low circular orbit.

GW

GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

Of course it is because I want to promote the idea of developing 3 worlds, not just Mars.  Mars/Phobos/Deimos of course.

I think that it is a bit absurd the humans will go to Mars only and then hide in caves.  I would think that low gravity worlds are the future.  Of course other than the Gas and Ice Giants, all other worlds seem to be low gravity relative to Earth, in this solar system.  All that we know of anyway.

I think that my postings may become more infrequent unless I am inspired by something more.

Its good, I would like to see others present things and hopefully better things than I have.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-14 17:35:48)


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#1462 2023-11-15 14:44:07

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void, I found this article on the nuclear powered subselene.
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 … dc1070838/

I remember reading about this some twenty years ago as a student.  The idea was to use a high temperature nuclear reactor to melt tunnels through the lunar subsurface.  These could have housed a lunar base or provided a shielded dust free environment for transportation.

The subselene is technically difficult.  To melt lunar basalt, temperatures must exceed 1000°C which is challenging for any fuel technology.  And molten basalt is corrosive and errosive.  So melting through the lunar rock with a nuclear reactor is a technically difficult project.  However, the same would not be true for the icy worlds that dominate the outer solar system.  Outer solar system moons, the outer asteroid belt, the Jupiter trojans, Kuiper belt and Oort cloud, are all water ice dominated bodies.  Presumably a nuclear powered tunnelling machine operating on any of these bodies could be powered by a light water reactor.  The nose of the vehicle would melt its way through the ice.  The resulting melt water would be a slurry of liquid water with various entrained silicates.  This could be pumped through flexible hoses to a dump on the surface.

Using machines like this, we could riddle icy bodies with tunnels.  The same nuclear reactor that melts through the ice could be used to generate electric power that electrolyses water into oxygen and hydrogen.  The melting could be done with waste heat.  The oxygen would pressurise the tunnels to 0.3 bar.  The hydrogen would be discarded to space.

Taking the initial temperature of the ice to be between 20-150K, depending on location, by my reckoning it will take about 1MJ of heat to melt 1kg of ice.  Which means 1GJ is needed to melt one cubic metre of ice.  Suppose this machine is equipped with a 1GWth nuclear heat source and we use this machine to bore 10m diameter tunnels.  The machine should advance at 1.3cm/s.  Over the course of a year, it would cut 402km of tunnel.  A single machine could cut some 20,000km of tunnel over a 50 year operating life.  This is a huge potential habitat.  Making it suitable for human habitation will require coating the walls with insulating wall paper or cladding.  Outer solar system ice is cold enough to freeze flesh off of bones.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-15 15:00:22)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1463 2023-11-15 16:53:27

Void
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Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

An interesting read Calliban.  Different than sintering loose regolith that the Univers has pounded into a pablum for us over billions of years.

Two other technologies might be completive, but both of those could use a nuclear power plant.

Microwave Drilling: https://jpt.spe.org/microwave-drilling- … ttest-rock
Quote:

Journal of Petroleum Technology logo
Topics
R&D/INNOVATION
Microwave Drilling Sounds Like Science Fiction but So Does Drilling Down to the Hottest Rock
One of the problems with geothermal is that the rock that is hot enough to create the steam needed to run a power plant is also capable of destroying drilling hardware.

Boring Company Prufrock: https://www.boringcompany.com/prufrock
Quote:

PRUFROCK
Prufrock is designed to “porpoise,” meaning it launches directly from the surface, mines underground, and re-emerges upon completion. This allows Prufrock to begin tunneling within 48 hours of arrival onsite and eliminates the need to excavate expensive pits to launch and retrieve the machine.

Prufrock is designed to tunnel at a speed greater than 1 mile per week, which is 6 times faster than The Boring Company's previous generation TBM (Godot+). This is still 4-5 times slower than a garden snail...but Prufrock is catching up!

Prufrock’s medium-term goal is to exceed 1/10 of human walking speed, which is 7 miles per day.

So, yes drilling methods including melting methods would be valuable I think.  I was very amazed at the intention to try to get to drilling at 7 miles per day.  Calculate how much pressurized space that could create on an alien world.

Granted drilling on an alien world is going to be harder, but the rewards may also be more.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-15 17:02:03)


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#1464 2023-11-16 10:28:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiF59VQsNZg
Quote:

Domes Of Mars

Isaac Arthur
766K subscribers

I was waiting for this video to come out.  I don't have any desire at this time to promote notions from me.  But I am eager to receive thinking from others.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-16 10:31:05)


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#1465 2023-11-16 20:32:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I will add this, as it was something I intended to talk about before quieting down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
Quote:

Laissez-faire

So, in my case it simply would be that we see what we could do with Mars/Phobos/Deimos each and together and try to develop best options as they might become apparent.

So, I am not Anti-Mars, rather, I consider that Phobos and Deimos are part of the "Mars Package".

Better to find out what the options are before committing completely to one plan only.

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Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 07:15:57)


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#1466 2023-11-17 06:11:00

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Regarding laissez-faire, it is always the most energy efficient option.

The importance of the recent developments in the production of food without sunlight using acetic acid, are difficult to understate.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00530-x

Until now, we have always assumed that humans living away from Earth would need an extensive biosphere to survive.  This makes sense if the assumption is that people will be fed by field based agriculture as they generally have been up to now.  But the acetate food production allows humanity to efficiently convert electricity, CO2 and water into energy rich food precursors.  Conventional agriculture would require huge spaces and huge quantities of electricity for artificial lighting.  Under these circumstances, terraforming is a natural requirement for human habitability.

Acetate based agriculture changes everything, by efficiently converting nuclear electricity into food calories.  It can do this in very compact spaces.  It means that human habitation no longer requires huge expanses of habitable land.  We need habitable volumes to live in, but this only needs to extend to the compact volumes of our habitats.  This development really opens the door for humanity to live anywhere, as our much more compact living space requirements can more easily adapt to local conditions.  So long as we take a nuclear reactor with us, it makes relatively little diffrrence whether our habitat is located on Mars, a moon of Jupiter or an icy Kuiper belt dwarf planet.  The environment provides raw materials and that is all that is needed.

This also removes a lot of the driving force behind terraformation, as human livining space ex agriculture can be housed in compact pressure vessels.  Terraforming becomes more of an aesthetic consideration.  Something we might do in places where it is possible.  But in no way neccesary for our survival in a place.

In the past, I have spoken about terraforming as a side effect of human habitation.  This usually occurs because humans move to a place and bring artificial heat sources with them.  I think this very likey for most of the outer worlds of the solar system.  Human beings will go there and set up big fusion reactors to power industry.  The icy crust of moons and planets will be a place to dump waste heat.  Eventually, these worlds will become ice covered oceans with thin atmospheres, as a side effect of human habitation rather than deliberate design.  At some point, humans will begin to take advantage of this by living under the ice which will provide hydrostatic pressure as well as a waste heat dump.  They may introduce aquatic organisms as well.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-17 06:20:55)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1467 2023-11-17 07:29:27

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that we are in strong agreement.  https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/sc … lectricity.

The concept of well lighted farms in a giant cylinder with a city, were worthy to offer hope in their time, but that sort of thing is likely to be a thing that would be done as a luxury, and a desire, rather than the needed building blocks for typical life of humans in the future, I feel.

There are a couple of things that have made me a "Nuclear Convert" lately.  First of all, learning that we could generate a very large amount of power just processing our nuclear waste to a less dangerous state of form.

And the idea that just a little ball of Thorium would have enough energy for a whole human lifetime, top to bottom.

Fission products are not any more wrong than nuclear fusion in a star or maybe someday in a power plant.  Many microbes in the oceans bottom live off of the products of natural radioactive decay in the sediments.

If after Mars/Phobos/Deimos, Thorium could be obtained in those worlds or also in the asteroid belt, then Titan looks like a very big deal to me.

Maybe some Thorium might be obtained locally, but even if it had to be imported to Titan, with large domes, Titan could be quite a place for people to live.

The domes to a large extent could be built of water ice, with some other materials as well, of course.

How the terraform of Titan might progress, I might imagine, but it looks like a good spot if you have the energy.  And I do not dismiss solar energy for Titan either, but that would be power plants in orbit of Saturn with very large mirrors.  Various schemes for projecting power to Titan itself, or to have habitats in orbit as well.

In that case we might contemplate Triton and Pluto and as I think you mentioned some other dwarf planets.  In some cases, with an artificial magnetic field, it might be possible to inflate a Nitrogen dominated atmosphere similar to that of Titan.  These of course would be huge radiators, that humans would just happen to live in.

And as you have said, perhaps ice-covered ocean worlds as well.

So, then if material goods can be created in sufficient bulk at reasonable cost, then additional wealth could be devoted to creating happy habitats that do not cost too much of resources.  An adapted human does not necessarily need to live in the middle of a giant corn field to be happy.  Almost all of us do not do so now.

Thanks for the post, Calliban.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 07:46:46)


Done.

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#1468 2023-11-17 07:48:24

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Follow-up: https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/sc … lectricity

Quote:

For the cultivation experiments with mushroom-producing fungi, the following five species were used: pearl oyster (Pleurotus ostreatus), elm oyster (Hypsizygus ulmarius), blue oyster (Pleurotus ostreatus var. columbinus), enokitake (Flammulina velutipes) and coral tooth (Hericium coralloides). The strains were purchased from liquidfungi.com and maintained on a liquid medium of glucose, yeast extract and peptone. Fungal mycelia were grown in a solid-state fermentation approach that roughly followed the PF-Tek methodology43; however, the carbon sources typically added, such as starch (rice flour), peat moss and coconut fibre, were omitted. A solid substrate of fine-grade vermiculite (30 g) was mixed with gypsum (0.5 g) and added to a 10 oz wide-mouth mason jar (Kamota). Liquid growth media (90 ml) were added to each jar, which soaked into the vermiculite. Media composition was the same as the maintenance media except that the carbon source was glucose (20 g l−1), acetate (as indicated), effluent (as indicated), no carbon source or a combination of these. Media pH was adjusted to 6.0 with HCl. The jars were closed with lids with four drilled holes

(12.7 mm in diameter) covered with a synthetic filter disk (0.3 µm pore size) to allow gas exchange. The jars were autoclaved for 45 minutes at 121 °C. Liquid mycelium cultures were centrifuged, washed with sterilized media, resuspended and then used to inoculate the sterilized jars.

Of course, 3D printing may allow Algae and Fungi to be made into solid foods of quality?

But the Mushroom if worked on genetically could also become more nourishing and perhaps palatable.

Of course, we might consider the morality of eating the reproductive organs of another creature, but it does not kill the basic organism, and they can grow new ones.  I suppose it becomes symbiosis.

All of this suggests that many organisms have often had pathways to utilize chemical energy if it were available.

Mushrooms can even digest petroleum.

https://www.spores101.co/Mushrooms-can- … s_b_4.html
Quote:

MUSHROOMS CAN HELP CLEAN UP OIL SPILLS
Posted by Spores101 Admin on 7/6/2010 to How Mushrooms Can Save The World
Here is an amazing and interesting fact; did you know that certain mushroom mycelium can eat oil? Yes that is what I said, mycelium can eat oil and therefore help clean up an oil spill.

A variety of Oyster mushrooms have proven to be extremely efficient at consuming oil and turning it into a non-toxic compost in less than 3 months.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 07:56:29)


Done.

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#1469 2023-11-17 09:52:09

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Ideally 3D printing would allow us to produce food that is indistinguishable from the real thing.  It will probably be more nutritious as well.  Remaining green space can actually be devoted to parkland and genuine natural habitats.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1470 2023-11-17 10:46:36

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Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

That does seem like the K.I.S.S. solution of best promise.

I was thinking a about taste buds in different environments, and preparation methods, such as boiling water.

Seems like the "Cheffs" have a lot of creative work ahead of them, as they may need to work with the local environment to make food that people like.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 10:46:53)


Done.

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#1471 2023-11-17 11:00:37

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is a more recent read on the "Dark Garden" notion.  It really has a lot to say about the topic: https://www.science.org/content/article … bound-mars

It seems that vascular plants can survive on the Acetate but would do better with sugar.

It also ventures into an obvious solution to some of the problems with vascular plants, that only a small amount of light may be needed to trigger their natural responses which cause certain aspects of growth.

It also mentions an "Electrolyzer" which can apparently synthesize Acetate and even sugars.
Quote:

[In 2017, a few months after joining UC Riverside, Jinkerson found himself sitting in on a seminar by Feng Jiao, a chemist at the University of Delaware. Jiao was describing his team’s experiments with an electrolyzer, a paperback book–size device that zaps CO2 and water with electricity to create acetate and ethylene, a building block for plastics. Because of the massive market for ethylene, $176 billion annually at last count, most of the buzz around Jiao’s electrolyzer centered on this compound. But it occurred to Jinkerson that if Jiao could make acetate from CO2, his own team could feed it to algae, and one day perhaps food crops. “I thought it was a perfect match,” Jinkerson says. “I pitched him in the parking lot and again 2 months later at a meeting.”

Strongly related to electrolysis, I guess: https://www.accelerazero.com/news/what- … t-used-for

About sugar:

Hauling tons of sugar into space as plant food may not make much sense, but recent advances in synthesizing sugars in electrolyzers may make that unnecessary. Compared with acetate, the molecular structures of sugars are more complex, making them more difficult to synthesize. But in the 19 October 2022 issue of Joule, researchers led by Peidong Yang, a chemist at UC Berkeley, reported using an electrolyzer to convert CO2 and water to compounds called glycolaldehyde and formaldehyde. A metal catalyst then caused the molecules to react and form sugars, including glucose. And in the May 2022 issue of Nature Catalysis, researchers led by Tingting Zheng at the University of Electronic Science and Technology of China reported that they engineered yeast to convert electrolyzer-produced acetate to glucose at high yield. Though neither of these approaches yet matches the yield of Jiao’s acetate electrolyzer, they raise hopes that future astronauts may be able to recycle their breath into plant food—and ultimately into fresh vegetables.

Quote:

“It’s early days,” says Lucas van der Zee, a plant biologist at Wageningen University who has also been trying to grow plants in the dark, but so far without success. “Since the beginning of agriculture, food production has been dependent on the Sun,” he says. “But if you can find a way to separate growth from light that would be huge, and change food production around the world.” Perhaps beyond our world as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 13:08:28)


Done.

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#1472 2023-11-17 11:30:36

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban,

In the last post, methods to make sugar from CO2 and water have been mentioned.

I recall some conversation about rocket fuels.

But just now, I was wondering that if you have LOX, could you burn sugar water in an engine of some kind?

I grant you that I fear coking in a bad way for it, but I do wonder, if that could be a good deal.  Perhaps it could use a steam engine sort of thing as water would be converted to steam?

Done

Well, how about a Perchlorate solution and a sugar solution?  Probably death to engines, except if complete combustion could occur, but a steam engine, sort of?

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 11:34:11)


Done.

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#1473 2023-11-17 11:57:56

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

GW Johnson is the rocket engine expert and the best man to ask.  Possible problems with glucose: (1) Low mass energy density - only one third that of diesel; (2) Relatively high viscosity and consequent high pumping power requirements; (3) Problems with thermal stability - if you attempt to use glucose for regenerative cooling, it may polymerise or coke up the engine.  Basically, sticky, gunky syrup.  One plus side though.  The rocket exhaust should smell like candy floss.  Popular with the crowds.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1474 2023-11-17 13:06:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, partner you got me!

Actually, yes, I agree, but I was thinking an engine on the ground on Mars. 

But yeast and sugar could give ethanol.  And I expect LOX would work with that.

But although Perchlorate is toxic, how about Ethanol and a Perchlorate solution, perhaps in water?

The point was they had a process that might give sugar, with an input of ((CO2, Water, and a Catalyst) + Electricity).

Fuel, Booze, yeast (Maybe as a food additive?).

Done

https://www.science.org/content/article … bound-mars

About sugar:

Hauling tons of sugar into space as plant food may not make much sense, but recent advances in synthesizing sugars in electrolyzers may make that unnecessary. Compared with acetate, the molecular structures of sugars are more complex, making them more difficult to synthesize. But in the 19 October 2022 issue of Joule, researchers led by Peidong Yang, a chemist at UC Berkeley, reported using an electrolyzer to convert CO2 and water to compounds called glycolaldehyde and formaldehyde. A metal catalyst then caused the molecules to react and form sugars, including glucose. And in the May 2022 issue of Nature Catalysis, researchers led by Tingting Zheng at the University of Electronic Science and Technology of China reported that they engineered yeast to convert electrolyzer-produced acetate to glucose at high yield. Though neither of these approaches yet matches the yield of Jiao’s acetate electrolyzer, they raise hopes that future astronauts may be able to recycle their breath into plant food—and ultimately into fresh vegetables.

Done

But since you mentioned rockets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-88
Quote:

The RS-88 is a liquid-fueled rocket engine burning ethanol as fuel, and using liquid oxygen (LOX) as the oxidizer. It was designed and built by Rocketdyne, originally for the NASA Bantam System Technology program (1997).

In 2003, it was designated by Lockheed for their pad abort demonstration (PAD) vehicle. NASA tested the RS-88 in a series of 14 hot-fire tests, resulting in 55 seconds of successful engine operation in November and December 2003. The RS-88 engine proved to be capable of 50,000 lbf (220 kN) of thrust at sea level.

Maybe that would be good enough to use on Mars???

I certainly cannot claim it in either direction.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-17 13:14:04)


Done.

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#1475 2023-11-18 13:41:50

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,285

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just needed a place to plug this into.  It is not planet 9 apparently.

Stimulation for the imagination, perhaps even another world to work with some day for future people.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1g5THP
Quote:

Earth-like planet is “hiding” in our own solar system
Story by Eric Ralls  •
18h

Quote:

The scientists believe that this KBP is up to 500 astronomical units (AU) from the sun. This is 500 times the distance between Earth and the sun, and closer than Planet Nine.

Icy objects
According to the experts, the KBP could be up to three times as massive as Earth. However, the temperatures are likely too cold to sustain life as we know it.

The Kuiper Belt is known to contain millions of icy objects, referred to as trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs), because they are located beyond Neptune.

A world with a gravitation of 1 g or less, with a very large surface area due to being compose of ice, would be nice, maybe a surface like Pluto?

But of course, chances that it deviates from that, if it does exist.

That could be one heck of a radiator if you had an inflated atmosphere for it, and a source of power like fusion.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-18 13:48:25)


Done.

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