New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1426 2023-10-29 19:39:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, since my last post was about Venus, I might as well put this here: https://phys.org/news/2023-10-venus-ear … lions.html  Quote:

Venus had Earth-like plate tectonics billions of years ago, study suggests

So, if I understand this the planet got too hot for plate movement, I suppose without a water lubricant?  And not magnetic field to protect Hydrogen/water.

But it could indicate that Venus is putting out Hydrogen/water that went underground a long time ago.

However, Venus still has Hydrogen (In small amounts), then it has to be coming from the interior or from the solar wind, I would suppose.  It should have been depleted by now otherwise.

One terraform method I have considered for a while for Venus would be to capture all the Hydrogen out of the atmosphere, to get rid of the Sulfuric Acid, and also to reduce the greenhouse effect by getting rid of Sulfuric Acid and water vapors.

If it were practical to lift the Hydrogen to orbit, and to capture Oxygen from the tail of Venus, then the water there would be very welcome.  Or Ammonia manufactured could be lifted to orbit.  The Nitrogen and Hydrogen in the Ammonia would be very welcome in orbits and for our Moon.

Two other methods would be to:
1) Capture the water into a floating enclosure.
2) Remove the Hydrogen from the water/H2SO4 and release it to float to orbit.

The gravity of Venus being 90% that of Earth, it could be that the planet could favor launches of materials into space.  Elon Musk has said that the Earth's gravity is almost too much to make spaceflight possible, but Venus might be better, I think.

Of course, you would not want the rocket to drag though a lot of atmospheres either so the higher, most likely the better as far as a launch pad would be concerned.

I suppose Hydrogen and Helium are an impractical wish.

An air mix or Nitrogen is thought to work, but in the last post, I had a look at Ammonia and Methane.  Methane would be less likely to condense out of a gas, Ammonia might higher up.

Here it is again: Specific Gravity of gasses: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/spec … %20rows%20

Well, I think we have a payoff.  I think that both Ammonia and Methane could make good lifting gasses on Venus.  Not good breathing gasses though.  Air is 1.000
Quote:

Ammonia - NH3    0.59
Methane - CH4    0.5537
Nitrogen - N2 (pure)    0.9669
Nitrogen - N2 (atmospheric)    0.9723

And then: Hydrogen    0.0696

I guess some balloons may be possible now that can hold Hydrogen for extended periods.

A floating habitat mostly filled with Methane would present breathing problems for humans but not to Tesla Bot, or other robots.

So, to make habitats float higher, then mostly they could be Methane filled, with just a bit of air fill.  And those kept properly isolated to prevent explosions.

I suppose these could be solar and/or fission powered.

This is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Image Quote: 300px-11214_2023_956_Fig6_HTML.webp.png  Table Quote:

Height
(km)    Temp.
(°C)    Atmospheric pressure
(atm)
0    462    92.10
5    424    66.65
10    385    47.39
15    348    33.04
20    306    22.52
25    264    14.93
30    222    9.851
35    180    5.917
40    143    3.501
45    110    1.979
50    75    1.066
55    27    0.531 4
60    −10    0.235 7
65    −30    0.097 65
70    −43    0.036 90
80    −76    0.004 760
90    −104    0.000 373 6
100    −112    0.000 026 60

Quote:

As crewed ships sent to Venus would be able to compensate for differences in temperature to a certain extent, anywhere from about 50 to 54 km or so above the surface would be the easiest altitude in which to base an exploration or colony, where the temperature would be in the crucial "liquid water" range of 273 K (0 °C) to 323 K (50 °C) and the air pressure the same as habitable regions of Earth.[9][36] As CO2 is heavier than air, the colony's air (nitrogen and oxygen) could keep the structure floating at that altitude like a dirigible.

So, with an Ammonia or Methane flotation it might be possible to dwell a bit higher, which I suppose might risk icing, but might be useful.

I am not sure that Ammonia Buffering may help with the Sulfuric Acid in some way, but this is interesting: https://phys.org/news/2021-12-acid-neut … e%20slurry.  Quote:

Once present in the clouds, ammonia would dissolve in droplets of sulfuric acid, effectively neutralizing the acid to make the droplets relatively habitable. The introduction of ammonia into the droplets would transform their formerly round, liquid shape into more of a nonspherical, salt-like slurry.
Could acid-neutralizing life-forms make habitable pockets in Venus…

So, could Ammonia protect machinery from the acid?

So Ammonia might not be too much of a risk to ice up at a higher altitude: Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
Quote:

Boiling point:    −33.34 °C (−28.01 °F; 239.81 K

So again Ammonia might not be too demanding for cooling to prevent boiloff.

Quoting from the Table above, (Altitude=km, Temperature=C, Pressure=bar):

55    27    0.531 4
60    −10    0.235 7
65    −30    0.097 65

A human may need a pressure suit to some degree, but you need protection from acid anyway.

So, what might the behavior of Sulfuric Acid be?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid
Quotes:

Melting point    10.31[1] °C (50.56 °F; 283.46 K)

Boiling point    337[1] °C (639 °F; 610 K)
When sulfuric acid is above 300 °C (572 °F; 573 K), it gradually decomposes to SO3 + H2O

But a mix of water and Sulfuric acid has a lower melting point.

If the airship iced up it would lose altitude, and then warm up, I am guessing, so the ice would melt.

Perhaps if temperatures are kept cold the acid would be less reactive.

I recall Teraformer educating me on acid resistant suits.

Here is a query: "what materials can withstand sulfuric acid?"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+mate … &sp=1&lq=0

Looking for Chlorine on Venus: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … atmosphere
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … e_of_Venus

Well, there is some and some may be enough to make plastics with Chlorine in them that resist acid.

OK here is something about acid resistant materials: https://inyoprocess.com/selecting.html?id=11
Quote:

PVC
PVC (Schedule 80 Type 1 -Gray) is a good low cost material that can chemically withstand all concentrations of sulfuric acid.  PVC has relatively low temperature resistance (a maximum working temperature of 140 ºF), and should not be used for the diffuser components such as the injector or quill that are near the dilution or diffusion of the acid, as the heat of reaction can damage the pipe.

CPVC
CPVC (Schedule 80 Type 1 -Gray) is a good low cost material that can also withstand all concentrations of sulfuric acid.  With a maximum service temperature of 200 ºF, CPVC can withstand some heat of dilution, for injectors or diffusers that are adding small amounts of acid..

So, OK, maybe a relationship between Venus and our Moon could work.  They would each provide things for a whole spectrum of wanted/needed materials.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-29 20:54:39)


Done.

Offline

#1427 2023-10-30 08:08:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, from my point of view, almost any world, or it's moon(s), may offer things to a solar economy, and most worlds will have a fair amount of potential for self-sufficiency.

I have not found the idea of living in sulfuric acid clouds to be attractive, but with mostly robots, I feel it starts to make sense.  I like the idea of habitats orbiting Venus, and being able to get materials from Venus and also from the Moon and other worlds.

However, if the Sulfuric Acid could be suppressed, then I think Venus could become more attractive as per cloud cities.

So, manipulating atmospheric chemistry might be a key, of course.

The cycle of Sulfuric Acid, according to my recollection is that it decays into water and Sulfur Oxides at high temperatures, and then U.V. light causes the acid to reappear.

So, this could be one key:

So, what might the behavior of Sulfuric Acid be?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid
Quotes:

Melting point    10.31[1] °C (50.56 °F; 283.46 K)

Boiling point    337[1] °C (639 °F; 610 K)
When sulfuric acid is above 300 °C (572 °F; 573 K), it gradually decomposes to SO3 + H2O

Another key could be Ozone.  Could we arrange for an effective Ozone layer?

Then another key would be to isolate the Hydrogen so that it could be prohibited becoming part of Sulfuric Acid.

If this is done, then we have the Sulfur Oxide gasses as clouds, which might not be so bad, as they shade things a bit from the intense sunlight of Venus.

So, Sulfur Trioxide:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_trioxide
Quote:

Chemical formula    SO3
Molar mass    80.066 g/mol
Appearance    Colorless to white crystalline solid which will fume in air.[2] Colorless liquid and gas.[3]
Odor    Varies. Vapor is pungent; like sulfur dioxide.[4] Mist is odorless.[3]
Density    1.92 g/cm3, liquid
Melting point    16.9 °C (62.4 °F; 290.0 K)
Boiling point    45 °C (113 °F; 318 K)
Solubility in water    Reacts to give sulfuric acid

I was not expecting it, but it seems that it might be possible to make objects with the stuff at relatively low temperatures.  Not sure of how practical that could be.  I do want craft that hang out higher up and, in the cold, but I am not sure practical will apply to this.

Quote:

Polymer

An ampoule of sulfur trioxide
If SO3 is condensed above 27 °C, then α-SO3 forms, which has a melting point of 62.3 °C. α-SO3 is fibrous in appearance. Structurally, it is the polymer [S(=O)2(μ-O)]n. Each end of the polymer is terminated with OH groups.[1] β-SO3, like the alpha form, is fibrous but of different molecular weight, consisting of an hydroxyl-capped polymer, but melts at 32.5 °C. Both the gamma and the beta forms are metastable, eventually converting to the stable alpha form if left standing for sufficient time. This conversion is caused by traces of water.[11]

Relative vapor pressures of solid SO3 are alpha < beta < gamma at identical temperatures, indicative of their relative molecular weights. Liquid sulfur trioxide has a vapor pressure consistent with the gamma form. Thus heating a crystal of α-SO3 to its melting point results in a sudden increase in vapor pressure, which can be forceful enough to shatter a glass vessel in which it is heated. This effect is known as the "alpha explosion".[11]

  Image Quote: 200px-Schefeltrioxid.jpg
Quote:

An ampoule of sulfur trioxide

OK, that is interesting to know, but I do not yet see a strong case for the practical while in the atmosphere of Venus.

So, going back to Hydrogen, we would want it to be in plastic structures, as water, and exported to space as water, or simply floated away into the solar wind.

A Venus like that might not be so bad really.  And eventually it may become practical to mine the surface of Venus as well, but I don't know that that would be economically competitive to getting such materials from elsewhere in the solar system.

And other worlds may present themselves as more useful earlier on, but I would say the eventually, yes, Venus!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-30 08:37:24)


Done.

Offline

#1428 2023-10-30 10:53:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I would like to move to orbital habitats where water availability is constricted.  I will borrow from others.  I will be looking strongly at sintered regolith as a major component for this.

These might work well for Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and for the Inner Asteroid belt and perhaps for NEO asteroids as well.

This is what I have in mind to a degree: hYjhvAI.png

OK, a robot factory can travel on the perimeter of the cone and enlarge it by sintering materials to it.  Of course, then periodically the mirrors have to be expanded and repositioned as well.

I am very interested in Phobos and Deimos which probably have Carbon in their rocks, but this asteroid is known to have water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa  Image Quote: 265px-Itokawa06_hayabusa.jpg
Quote:

2018 Hayabusa results
Two separate groups report water in different Itokawa particles. Jin et al. report water in low-calcium pyroxene grains. The water's isotope level corresponds with inner Solar System and carbonaceous chondrite water isotope levels.[35] Daly et al. report "OH and H2O" apparently formed by implantation of solar wind hydrogen. The rims of an olivine particle "show an enrichment of up to ~1.2 at % in OH and H2O".[36] The water concentrations of the Itokawa grains would indicate an estimated BSI (Bulk Silicate Itokawa) water content in line with Earth's bulk water, and that Itokawa had been a "water-rich asteroid".[37]

2020 Hayabusa results
At the 2020 Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, a third group reported water and organics, via a third Hayabusa particle- RA-QD02-0612, or "Amazon." Olivine, pyroxene, and albite contain water. Isotopic compositions indicate a clear extraterrestrial origin.[38]

2021 Hayabusa results
A further report by Daly's group was published which supported the theory that a large source of earth's water has come from hydrogen atoms carried on particles in the solar wind which combine with oxygen on asteroids and then arrive on earth in space dust. Using atom probe tomography the study found hydroxide and water molecules on the surface of a single grain from particles retrieved from the asteroid Itokawa by the Japanese space probe Hayabusa.[39][40]

Dust ponds are identified in the asteroid. They are a phenomenon where pockets of dust are seen in Celestial bodies without a significant atmosphere. Smooth deposits of dust accumulate in depressions on the surface of the body (like craters), contrasting from the Rocky terrain around them. [41] In the Sagamihara and Muses-Sea regions of the asteroid dust ponds were identified. Dust particles had a size varying from millimeters to less than a centimeter.

So, I understand that even Moon dust has some Nitrogen compounds in it which could be retrieved, and it seems likely that a small amount of Carbon would exist, and then much more "Water" than any of those, so first you would extract those thing, likely with heat.

Then you might extract the Oxygen, and so then make the Iron and Nickle magnetic, so you try to separate those.  Then after other extractions you sinter the "Slag" onto the SinterCone.

The SinterCone would offer some radiation protection and also be an object to attach things to.  Solar panels on the sunward side at least, and then perhaps spin gravity devices on the leeward side.

If the Magnetic field was up, then you might have pretty good overall protection.    But there is nothing stopping the creation of radiation storm shelters.  They could be used for when things might get "Out of ordinary".

But I can go get my car, so that's whats next smile

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-30 11:54:36)


Done.

Offline

#1429 2023-10-30 19:01:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I typically have an obsession with water, but nearer small gravity worlds offer less of it, but are more accessible.  So, then finding ways to make water stretch and using raw materials that are generally considered waste to make structure, now interests me.

As a lot of work and high mind effort went into the Stanford Torus, I will then adopt is so that I do not have to expend effort to reinvent the wheel smile

At first a Baton (GW Johnson)/VastSpace.com, may do.  Maybe even a Starship.  But perhaps eventually a Standford Torus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus
Quote:

It consists of a torus, or doughnut-shaped ring, that is 1.8 km in diameter (for the proposed 10,000 person habitat described in the 1975 Summer Study) and rotates once per minute to provide between 0.9 g and 1.0 g of artificial gravity on the inside of the outer ring via centrifugal force.[8]

Sunlight is provided to the interior of the torus by a system of mirrors, including a large non-rotating primary solar mirror.

Of course, I have modifications in mind.  I am not thinking something that large, and I might want to hope to use a lower synthetic gravity.  But we need to learn how much permission we may have for those things.

Also, the bulk of your agriculture does not need .9 to 1 g of simulation and it may not need a full 1 bar pressure, so you might economize on that.  So, you can decrease the burden down to methods to keep humans and animals healthy as per simulations.

But what the heck, tomorrow might come to exist, so then I may show up some more.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-30 19:34:03)


Done.

Offline

#1430 2023-10-31 04:49:31

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I addressed Itokawa, as it is a world of interest in itself, but mostly because it has evidence of water.  We do not have that firm of data for Phobos and Deimos, but it seems likely to me that they also have at least some water from the solar wind.

Query: "Effects of the solar wind on Phobos"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Effects+o … FB9A3030A2

https://www.space.com/38530-solar-wind- … hobos.html
Quote:

Phobos orbits incredibly close to Mars, and since it has no atmosphere and no magnetosphere it plows directly through streams of solar wind and absorbs the electrically charged particles on its dayside. This, in turn, leaves a void over its nightside. As a result, negatively charged electrons from the solar wind fill this void and statically charge the moon's nightside. This same effect also occurs in other large shadowed areas on Phobos, such as Stickney crater, according to the study, which was published Oct. 3 in the journal Advances in Space Research.

They are obsessed about electrical charge; my interest is more what happens to the (+) ions which are mostly Hydrogen Ions?  We know that for the Moon, water and OH may be created.  And I have mentioned some time ago that I think that there could be electrical discharges inside of Phobos and Deimos, that might do some chemical actions if Hydrogen is in the presence of Oxidized materials.

And in the case of Phobos but likely not Deimos atmosphere from Mars has been implanted to some degree: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-020-00682-0
Quote:

We show that a first consequence of this is that Martian atmospheric oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and argon atoms are implanted and may be preserved inside the uppermost hundreds of nanometres of Phobos’s nearside regolith grains, which may be brought back to Earth by future sample return missions. The second effect is that alteration of the regolith properties is asymmetric on Phobos’s surface, as Martian ions accelerate weathering of the nearside by a factor of ~2.

So, a little of it at least.

And if it were true that the Moons of Mars were at times rings, then those might have been implanted with solar wind ions also.

So, as expected, no certainty for water at this time but a suspicion of it.

But as I have said before, for the case of Phobos and Deimos Hydrogen can be brought up from Mars, to combine with Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos to make water, if necessary.

Here are some interesting claims: https://www.thefactsite.com/phobo-facts/
Quote:

4. The composition of Phobos isn’t what you might think…

It’s common to think that moons are just giant rocks floating around in space or around the planets.

However, the composition of Phobos is more interesting than that.

A large part of both Mars’ moons is indeed carbon-rich rock, but that isn’t all.

Scientists believe that both Phobos and Deimos are made up of rock and ice.

More recent studies into Phobos indicate that the outer surface is covered with a layer of dust approximately one meter thick.

I am not saying that it is true or not true, as per ice, but I do believe it likely that small amounts of Hydrogen is likely implanted, and I am willing to suppose that Carbon is present in the rocks in a significant amount.

So, if the situation is water poor, then at least Carbon/Oxygen rocket fuel situations could be developed.

Here I have made a modification to 'B' the mirror to make it a better impactor shield: LKW6OEU.png

So, the device already contains various protective and regulation measures to make Mars orbital space more habitable.

It has to be kept in mind that secondary radiation is emitted from Mars also which could be a problem in the orbit of Phobos on the near side, or for an independent orbiter.

While I have specified a sinter cone, it is also possible to include other structure with tensile strengths.

I did not originally think that the cone would spin, but I suppose some cases might include spin for the cone.

But I do intend to have synthetic gravity machines in the wake of the cone, protected from hard solar radiation and also with various other protections.

While the idea of transporting tonnage to Mars with Starship is a good ability to have, I see a lot of reason why tonnage would be delivered by electric rocket.  Such stations as these could help in providing assistance in delivery of materials to the Martian surface.

If you have a Carbon-based fuel and Oxygen both on the surface of Mars, and from Phobos and Deimos, then you have a possible method that may work well for that.

But it could work the other way as well, if you can build habitats in orbit then those might eventually be so well built that they would be a nice place to live, maybe even better than Mars itself.

Doen

Last edited by Void (2023-10-31 05:57:49)


Done.

Offline

#1431 2023-10-31 06:11:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I regard this to be the parent idea for the SinterCone idea:
https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres  Image Quote: satellite-1.jpg

This has many of the elements, but allows the use of low-grade materials to make a "Common Plane" which is also somewhat protective to a sheltered area: Here I have made a modification to 'B' the mirror to make it a better impactor shield: LKW6OEU.png

Getting all sciences and technical, may tend to exclude bulk crude materials in our thinking.  But in our industrial system things like roads and other structures use them so we will want that attitude in space as well.  Try to use all the atoms that are from weak gravity wells for something.  Do not throw away stuff if you don't have a useful reason such as propulsion.

So, although SinterCones could be of a smaller size, I think they could be made very large as well.  Then you could have multiple spin gravity devices and other microgravity habitations in them.  But you would then need to guard against a cascade failure such as centrifugal explosions, and also human stupidity and malice.

So, very large could be extremely large.  And a cone shape may not be the only option.  Just a "V" shaped long trough might work also.

As often happens another member has provided a notion which I want to include, for farming purposes: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p215416

OK this is not well developed yet, and is more or less schematic in nature: VzWnThu.png

The blue ring is actually two balloons bounding a layer of water between them.  And the Green circles suggest higher pressure terrariums inside of that.  In a water rich situation, this might be on the path to something useful.  More radiation protection.  And perhaps plastic type films of a rugged sort could hold up somewhat well in the partially protected environment provided by the other structures associated with this.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-31 06:42:31)


Done.

Offline

#1432 2023-10-31 11:08:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been considering if water filled habitats might make some sense for agriculture and maybe even for humans.  It is more a game than serious, but who knows.

The vapor pressure of fresh water at 0 C is about 6.1 mbar.  That would be an odd environment to grow anything in, but it would not need a very strong containment.

For brine at -20 C, the vapor pressure would be 1.2230 mbar.  Yes, I know that this very close to totally silly, but I consider it to be a limit.  Ther is just a chance that some kind of microbe could exist in such an environment, or be engineered for it.  As I have said I am trying to find an edge limit.  Probably it would be too harsh.  We don't have any environments like that where sun shines into the water, but we do have ice covered lakes that approach those limits and microbes do live in it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11884
Quote:

It is permanently covered by a massive cap of ice up to 27 metres thick, is six times saltier than normal sea water, and at −13 °C is one of the coldest aquatic environments on Earth — yet Lake Vida in Antarctica teems with life.

Scientists drilling into the lake have found abundant and diverse bacteria. “Lake Vida is not a nice place to make a living in,” says Peter Doran, an Earth scientist from the University of Illinois at Chicago and a member of the team that has been exploring the lake — the largest of a number of small bodies of water in the McMurdo Dry Valleys Antarctic desert. “It is quite remarkable that something wants to live in that cold, dark and salty environment at all.”

The reason i chose -20 C was because I recall that Lichen can have some metabolism at temperatures above that.

So, the point is that we just might be able to grow microbes at a pressure of about 1.2230 mbar or about 1/813th of sea level pressure (That is a very strong and questionable maybe).

But structures filled with water might serve as radiation protection anyway.

A low pressure and temperature allow for a lower strength pressure vessel, and also will. reduce leakage over time.

But for humans' temperatures and pressure need to be more, of course.

20 degrees C would only give 23.2977 mbar.  The temperature might be comfortable, but you would need a pressure suit and breathing method.

Of course, more pressure could be added to that to get to 250 to 333 mbar, which might allow for far less of a suit, but still needs breathing method.

Anyway, this also might be protective of radiation.

Such reservoirs of water may have synthetic gravity or not.

Microgravity swimming might be interesting and also dangerous without special methods.

rP0S3s3.png

I just wanted to cover the potential of this, it might work well in some situations.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-31 11:43:00)


Done.

Offline

#1433 2023-10-31 19:22:21

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The idea that the asteroid belt begins at 2.0 AU seems not so correct to me at this point.

We have a list here of Mars crossing asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

Generally, the further in you go the less Carbon bearing asteroids there are.  Those also may contain water.  But even the stony asteroids may have a bit of water from the solar wind or from their historical formations, it seems.

They have various orbital characteristics, which in some cases may be favorable.  They tend to be small but some have greater size than Phobos and Deimos.

So, if method to utilize Phobos and Deimos emerges, then perhaps some of these asteroids can be targeted as well by similar methods.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-31 19:34:05)


Done.

Offline

#1434 2023-10-31 19:40:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have some materials to talk about:

Wind:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … 6f850&ei=4

Space Solar:
utube, Game-changing space-based solar farmthat clean energy 24hrs a day, The Electric Viking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrGcRTcmWLc

https://www.spacesolar.co.uk/

I suppose you might wonder what wind mills are doing in the mix?

Well, as it happens the Earth is a planet we hope to stabilize by whatever means is possible. And that is just about the same as terraforming.

Also, Venus might have wind power.  If you had a floating habitat, it could have windmills on it and also a sea anchor it dangled below it might also have more windmills on it, and they may not be in the same wind currents so you might get a lot of power from that.

I think the arguments for space based solar for Earth are valid, but I also see a use for such on other planets.  Obviously, Mars can use all the power possible.

But for Venus, in addition to sending power to cloud cities, we might alter the atmospheric chemistry with microwaves.  Perhaps baking Sulfuric Acid into H20 and S3.  Possibly creating Ozone, high up, but I don't know how to do that so far.

Obviously, the Moon and Mercury could use carefully pointed power into shadowed craters.

And the list goes on.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-31 19:46:53)


Done.

Offline

#1435 2023-11-03 07:21:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Keeping an eye on reality, at some point power systems based on the Earth will saturate.  There will not be more room.  But the Sun is out there too, and so is wind on some planets.

If it can be done in better ways, I see no reason not to seek to tap into that for the benefit of human pattern replications.

Earth and Venus are the only planets that I am serious about for wind at this time, but who knows way down the road, maybe Mars, maybe some of the outer planets.

We are told that Mars has a shifting axis, and that the water tends to migrate from warm to cold.  Just now with its existing tilt the migration tends to be to the poles.

From my point of view, space-based power around Mars could be used to melt bodies of water at the poles.  Maybe ice covered, maybe mechanical covered, and just maybe someday open water.  After all, if open water were to evaporate at the poles of Mars, then it would just come back as snow most likely.  This then is a very good cooling system.

I microwave energy were being beamed to locations on Mars, then the waste heat from machinery running would be dumped into these reservoirs.

Solar power in Martian orbit is obviously vastly better than it can be on the surface of Mars.  And mirrors in orbit are likely to work very well.  And Phobos and Deimos, which we do not have for Earth or other inner planets.

I have mentioned the Sulfuric Acid cycle on Venus.  At the base of the clouds, I believe that the Sulfuric Acid breaks down into H20 and Sulfur Trioxide.  It is under the influence of UV light that the Sulfuric Acid reforms.

I guess this supports the claim of water a little: https://www.universetoday.com/36871/clouds-on-venus/  Image Quote: molecules03_l.jpg

I don't see a practical way to get rid of the Sulfur in the atmosphere, and since Sulfur Trioxide is reflective, it actually may have a use to attenuate the sunlight.  But the Water/Hydrogen could be fetched until H2SO4 could not form as much.  And we might dream of making a very intense Ozone layer higher up in the atmosphere.

Could all the water get bottled up into floating greenhouses?

Well then, I also think Ammonia exporting might be a great thing to do.  An attempt to use rockets for that might be economically sensible.

But if I was going to dream a dream further, I might want to liberate the Hydrogen to let it float up.  Then if you had a method to fetch the Hydrogen in orbit and also Nitrogen you could make Ammonia up there.  But we have not invented such methods yet.

I think that mining the surface of Venus may eventually be possible, but maybe it would be easier to mine asteroids and bring materials to Venus.  You could use aerobraking for that.

If solar power in the orbits of Venus were established, I think that would be a whole lot of power indeed, and a means to a good economy with the chemicals that can come from Venus.

But of course, if there is any life found in the clouds of Venus a rethink is to be needed then.

My guess is that the Asteroid Belt in its entirety and Venus and Mars will become accessible at about the same time.  And it may be possible to have a solar economy where materials are traded.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-03 07:52:35)


Done.

Offline

#1436 2023-11-04 09:04:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The question of plants dealing with a long Lunar night, at the equator.

https://phys.org/news/2023-11-secret-su … -days.html
Quote:

Plants' secret to surviving shorter days
by Samantha Brichta, Michigan State University

There are peaks of "Eternal Light" near the poles, (Nearly eternal).

But I wonder today about plants that would have existed at the polar areas in the age no ice, maybe Dinasaur times.

Is there a chance that the adaptations for that may lurk in some plants as active or inactive genes?

So, maybe someday plants that can put up with a month-long day/night cycle.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-04 09:11:13)


Done.

Offline

#1437 2023-11-04 21:34:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

There is some talk currently elsewhere about things like glucose and Starship.  Rather than me intruding on that conversation, I guess I want to have some thoughts about the tools which may become available that might be able to reach some of the worlds that I have been posting about.

I think Starship and ships that may become like Starship at this time are close to having 3 basic functions.
1) Money Maker work horse for Earth and LEO primarily.
2) Money Makers that the Scientific Community may push for purchase of to launch special version/missions, such as Lunar Starship.
3) Mars Settlement ships.  It is going to be a whole to turn this into a huge money maker, but it might pay for itself.

For #1: Reusability is probably a main focus.

For #2: Getting a particular job done will trump Reusability.  This may be used to explore Asteroids as well, and to launch Telescopes, I am inclined to think.

For #3: Some overlap with #2 will help to send the initial missions I suspect, but eventually an acceptable standard of living will have to be developed that will cause special people to want to use their wealth to visit and perhaps settle Mars.

Reusability is a very important property for #1, but not as much for #2 and #3 in my opinion. and likely that of others as well.

For a long time, I have wondered why it seems to be taboo to add drop tanks to Starship.  People just will not discuss it.

You have those 6 to 9 engines, and you could get more bang for your buck if you added drop tanks.  But that goes along with Ballistic Capture method.  Almost always only Crickets will be the observed return on that.  https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Of course, the question could be how would you get drop tanks into LEO?  We a Depot would more or less serve the purpose.

Well, the way I look at it is you could pair a Mars Starship with a Depot Starship or a Lunar Starship and use the Depot or Lunar Starship as a Drop Tank, but you might not drop it immediately.

Here is a render of the Lunar Starship which is interesting and recent: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/11/r … anels.html  Image Quote: F97taInbIAACiHB?format=jpg&name=small  F97taH-XIAAr4E5?format=jpg&name=360x360

So, actually if you had a ship like that on a path to Mars, it's nose might be pointed to the sun, and so its propellant tanks might be largely shielded from the sun's heat.   Remember this is a drop tank.  It is to assist a Mars Starship to get to Mars.  It does not have to have cargo if you don't have the wet budget to add cargo to the ship.  It does not need a heat shield, or the flaps and motors.  Actually, it will not need landing engines either so if you could extract them prior to leaving LEO you "MAY" get rid of them.

Let's call it an Escort Ship.

It may be possible to use the Escort Ship to make a radiation shield for the crew cabin of the Mars Starship.  This would mostly protect from solar flares; I am guessing and only a little protection from GCR.  It might also send power from its solar panels to the Mars Ship.  The Mars Ship may hook to the engine bay of the Escort Ship and the dual assembly would point at the sun most of the time, with the Escort Ship in front.

I know that the idea of Ballistic Capture is poison for most of the members.  But I will say that if Ballistic Capture was the method, then upon achieving Mars orbit, the propellants of the Lunar Starship to top off the Mars Starship to allow it a safer chance of landing on Mars.
The Lunar Starship would have a chance then to do a mission to Phobos and/or Deimos.

A possible objective of all of this would be to send some Hydrogen down with the Mars Starship.  This was an original idea of Dr. Zubrin.  This then would not require ice mining.  So other activities could be worked on.  But you would strongly investigate ice mining for subsequent missions.

But I know that for most here it is Hohmann Transfer or bust.  So, in that case you top off your Mars Starship and abandon the Escort Ship, then you do your screaming Suicide Dive and hopefully you make it, (With Hydrogen) on board for making return propellants.  Not having to do serious ice mining on the first crewed mission, would allow you to bring other cargo down to the surface than that heavy mining equipment.  Although sooner or later it will have to be delivered.  But if you get a chance for a look at the "Ground Truth" about ice deposits, then you might make that mining equipment suitable to the task.  (Measure twice, cut once).

I have only partially worked all of this out, but I think a point is made that if you have "Drop Tanks" for Starship you might run a different kind of mission.

Done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture
Quote:

Ballistic capture

Article
Talk
Read
Edit
View history

Tools
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ballistic capture is a low energy method for a spacecraft to achieve an orbit around a distant planet or moon with no fuel required to go into orbit. In the ideal case, the transfer is ballistic (requiring zero Delta-v) after launch. In the traditional alternative to ballistic capture, spacecraft would either use a Hohmann transfer orbit or Oberth effect, which requires the spacecraft to burn fuel in order to slow down at the target. A requirement for the spacecraft to carry fuel adds to its cost and complexity.

To achieve ballistic capture the spacecraft is placed on a flight path ahead of the target's orbital path. The spacecraft then falls into the desired orbit, requiring only minor orbit corrections which may only need low power ion thrusters.

The first paper on using ballistic capture for transfer designed for spacecraft was written in 1987.[1] The mathematical theory that describes ballistic capture is called Weak Stability Boundary theory.[2]

Ballistic capture was first used by the Japanese spacecraft Hiten in 1991 as a method to get to the Moon.[3][4][5] This was designed by Edward Belbruno and J. Miller.[3][5] The ballistic capture transfer that performed this is an exterior ballistic capture transfer since it goes beyond the Earth-Moon distance. An interior ballistic capture transfer stays within the Earth-Moon distance.  This was described in 1987[1] and was first used by the ESA SMART-1 spacecraft in 2004.[2]

Advantages
Ballistic capture is predicted to be:

safer, as there is no time critical orbit insertion burn,
launchable at almost any time, rather than having to wait for a narrow launch window,
more fuel efficient for some missions.[2]

The trajectory of KPLO (Danuri) between Earth, Lagrange point #1, and Moon
Low-energy transfer
Main article: Low-energy transfer
Trajectories that use ballistic capture are also known as a Low energy transfer (LET). More precisely, the terminology ballistic capture transfer (BCT) is used. They are low energy because they use no delta-V for capture. However, a low energy transfer need not be a ballistic capture transfer. The term ballistic lunar transfer (BLT) is also sometimes used.

The region about a target body where ballistic capture occurs is called a weak stability boundary.[2] The term weak stability boundary transfer is also used, or for short, WSB transfer.

In 2014, ballistic capture transfer was proposed as an alternate low energy transfer for future Mars missions.[6] It can be performed anytime, not only once per 26 months as in other maneuvers and does not involve dangerous and expensive (fuel cost) braking. But it takes up to one year, instead of nine months for a Hohmann transfer.[7]

Missions using ballistic capture

Animation of BepiColombo's trajectory from 20 October 2018 to 2 November 2025
   BepiColombo ·   Earth ·   Venus ·   Mercury ·   Sun
For more detailed animation, see this video
The following missions have used ballistic capture transfers,   (EBCT – Exterior ballistic capture transfer, IBCT – Interior ballistic capture transfer):

I do believe that the downside is that the mission may take a few months longer to get to Mars.  But the Escort Starship would offer extra life support for the crew in the Mars Starship, so that they might do OK with that.

A further upside may be that the Escort Starship may be able to do a robotic mission to Phobos and/or Deimos while the crew is on Mars.  As the Escort Starship might still have some propellants, they might be used to help tank up the Mars Starship in orbit.  Then the Mars Starship would have to do a standard timed return to Earth, not using Ballistic Capture for that.

If for some reason the Mars Starship could not land immediately as in a dust storm., it is possible that the Escort Starship could give some protection to the crew in orbit, until the Starship was able to land.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-04 22:36:30)


Done.

Offline

#1438 2023-11-04 22:39:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here is another article about space based solar: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … a6ed2&ei=5
Quote:

New study brings us closer to solar space farms that beam renewable energy back to Earth
Story by Rae Hodge  •
4d

It sounds like a long shot to some: The idea of solar power plants orbiting the Earth and beaming renewable energy back to us. But new research from the U.K., along with the development of ultra-lightweight solar cells made of cadmium telluride, is generating new hope that solar panel farms in space could be closer to becoming a reality than ever before.

Here is a link to a related post #1434 as well: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 67#p215467

Solar cells made of cadmium telluride: https://www.nrel.gov/pv/cadmium-telluri … cells.html

Well, that sounds a bit hopeful anyway.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-04 22:47:11)


Done.

Offline

#1439 2023-11-05 05:24:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The last few posts may seem to be in conflict, but I don't think so, really it is all things that may potentially emerge in the next number of years and decades.

I am not representing the "Drop Tank" thing as having been perfected, but rather I am trying to open imagination a bit more.  Some of it I am somewhat comfortable with.  But it would be better if some spin gravity could be added.  I don't have that included yet, and don't know how to include it yet.

But I am trying open up the reusability notion of space hardware.  SpaceX already will expend boosters when it makes a goal more attainable.  For instance, sometimes expending the center core of Falcon Heavy.

A different version of the "Drop Ship" notion would have the Escort Ship and the Mars Ship nose to nose.  That would perhaps allow more room for humans on the trip to Mars.  Then the engine bell of the Escort Ship would point at the sun.  You might want to put a lightweight sunshield on that end in that case.  Actually, that could also be where you might put solar panels as well in a revision of solar panel deployment.

I have already said why I like the idea of Ballistic Capture method, or if you are going to do Hohmann Transfer then to go to orbit.  I know that might not be favored by Dr. Zubrin, but this is just talk at this point.  We are not executing a critical mission.

I suppose one solution to the desire a synthetic gravity might be to spin the two ships end over end, but then that compromises the radiation shielding, and complicates solar panel orientation.

Also, for a price you might have a small Vast space Station put into orbit of Mars prior to the mission.  Then you may recondition some of the crew before landing.  Perhaps only two of the crew need to be reconditioned, the others can likely use Mars gravity to orient after landing.

Yes, all of this sounds like mounting expense, but for the first missions I don't think that going cheap is a good idea.  Going cheap is a good idea for up mass from the surface of the Earth.  But being capable is a good idea for the first missions which should likely be of exploration, more than to establish the full base.  You might even change your mind and decide to relocate your base.

The idea of sending 100 people to Mars on the first missions is silly if you don't have the infrastructure developed sufficiently.

It appears that Starlink may be a payday for SpaceX which is a good thing.  And perhaps space based solar power will become a payday as well, over time.

The concept of "Drop Tank", "Escort Ship" may work OK for missions to asteroids as well.  I can imagine various configurations that may make a bit of sense.

It may be that Asteroid missions could be lucrative for SpaceX as well.  Not sure about the argument humans vs. robots though.  That remains to be figured out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-05 05:41:35)


Done.

Offline

#1440 2023-11-05 10:18:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As an amendment to the previous post, I would consider adding 2 space capsules to the mission.

Orion's would be heavier than Dragons, but I don't know if Dragon heat shields could survive a reentry into Earth's atmosphere.

At any rate with 2 capsules, you might create spin gravity to recondition a handful of crews to be fit to land on Mars.

So, in this mission you might even drop the crew and samples at Earth in a flyby, and it might be possible that the ship(s) could eventually be recovered to Earth or Earth orbit after some planetary flybys.

But maybe going to that extent you might just let the main ships be disposed of as for a while Starships are likely to become obsolete as they will probably be updated to better functions for some time.

Done

What possibly would have been demonstrated was a trip to Mars, landing on Mars? Samples from Phobos and Deimos?  Return to Earth, and recovery of crew and sample.

If the mission was successful to have landed on Mars, the concept of ice mining could have been researched well enough to have a fair chance to get the mining equipment right.

Then I suppose future missions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-05 10:20:26)


Done.

Offline

#1441 2023-11-06 16:03:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, moved from one of my places to live to another, once again.  I don't know why it is sometimes things emerge in my thinking when I do that.  I fell I have found something that I was searching for.

My searching mode makes me do strange things.  I don't actually know what I am looking for, but have a compulsion to look over massive amounts of stuff without knowing why.  But I have been rewarded, (If you can call a burden a reward), by things not given to us in normal mode.

Anyway, this time I think that the danger of revelation is not seeming to hold any large dangers per stupid human reactions.  I am very happy for that.

Pause......

Well, fell asleep!

Anyway 4 spots around Mars, each of 4 poles on the moons of Mars.

A sintered cylinder on each of them would offer several advantages.

Pause.......

So, how about a castle on a moon?  On its pole?

A sintered cylindrical wall on a pole of a tiny moon.  They are tidal locked, and likely the poles are fairly fixed.

Now then if those are massive enough they can offer protection inside, various protection, and might be big enough to be held by the gravity of such a tiny moon.  Possibly they also could be anchored to big rocks in the interior of the moon.

So maybe enough space inside for synthetic gravity machines.

Around and about these structures solar equipment.

And thaere are various other factors to talk about but I am tired.  Another day perhaps, is there is another day.  My presumption is that there will be another day.  Much to say, but I am tired.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-06 21:05:02)


Done.

Offline

#1442 2023-11-07 06:04:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The moons of Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars
Image Quote Phobos: 297px-Phobos_colour_2008.jpg
Image Quote Deimos: 279px-Deimos-MRO.jpg

So, a North and South polar base possible for each moon.  A simple concept would be a sintered cylinder set on one end on each pole.  That being thick enough to protect from solar radiation and GCR ,  The moons also would protect from GCR.

A simple drawing suggesting possibility's: f6X9tDC.png

But I think that this is a path to a money making method for starting up Mars.  Scientific discovery like Antarctica, and indeed perhaps tourism, might start an economy.  And eventually these could be habitable cities.

More to come later on this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 06:25:17)


Done.

Offline

#1443 2023-11-07 06:49:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Technology that may support such an effort:
Sintered Regolith: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- … oon%20dust.
https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … n_the_Moon
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Sintering … bb&pc=DCTS

European machine to extract Oxygen:
https://indianexpress.com/article/techn … n-7816829/
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … r_regolith

Blue Alchemist: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future

Metal and Carbon Tensile structure to wrap a sintered cylinder with.  Carbon Example: https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html

Using Ballistic Capture method, then a ship to Mars does not need air braking features, but could be more like a Lunar Starship.  This does not mean that you cannot also have the Mars landing versions also, but it will lower the cost to reach the moons of Mars.

If the moons Phobos and Deimos do not have Carbon or Hydrogen in them, you can still get Oxygen from them, for ships going back to Earth and to send missions to asteroids from such bases on Phobos and Deimos.

But the two moons are typically thought to have some Carbon in their rocks, so then you have a fuel.  Hot Carbon could be used as a fuel, or CO can be used as a fuel.

And there are those who think that those two moons could be containing some water ice, that would be fantastic.

At first though you might get Hydrogen or Water from Mars itself.

I have previously posted about multi-staging Starships, one Mars Lander and one Escort Ship resembling the Lunar Starship.

But let's consider what can happen if a nuclear tug sends them off to Mars.  https://theconversation.com/to-safely-e … wer-137967  Quote:

Nuclear thermal propulsion systems are more than twice as efficient as chemical propulsion systems – meaning they generate twice as much thrust using the same amount of propellant mass – and can deliver 100,000 Newtons of thrust. That’s enough force to get a car from 0-60 mph in about a quarter of a second.

So, the way I see, it your nuclear tug would be loaded up with Hydrogen from the Earth using Starships, and would be quickly used, but not to go to Mars but to fling perhaps two Starships joined, and even perhaps a Vast Space spin gravity device.  That collection would allow the rotation of passengers and crew to the synthetic gravity device to be reconditioned periodically.  The hub of the vast spin stick could be positioned behind the stack to protect it from solar flares radiation.

On the way back perhaps only the air worthy Starship would return to Earth with only some people.

If the habitats built on Phobos and Deimos were good enough you might have people who would want to immigrate to them permanently, and of course over time, to Mars as well.

I really think that this is the way to go.

And to Mars/Phobos/Deimos would be done with Ballistic Capture.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture
Quote:

Advantages
Ballistic capture is predicted to be:

safer, as there is no time critical orbit insertion burn,
launchable at almost any time, rather than having to wait for a narrow launch window,
more fuel efficient for some missions.[2]

And you don't need air braking to get to Phobos and Deimos, and you aerobraking to Mars will be from a slower speed.
And you might refill the ship before you land, from bases on Phobos and Deimos.  So, you don't need to haul landing propellants  from the Earth/Moon, which frees up more of a budget for cargo.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 07:23:43)


Done.

Offline

#1444 2023-11-07 07:30:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As far as scale goes, you could start small at the poles, but eventually encase a whole moon in a sintered shell, I feel.

This would offer many protections and could have lots of room for space stations insider some with spin gravity.

And I would expect that zero g farms could be on the outside of the shell.

92BjkkF.png

I think a lot of people might want to live and work in such a situation(s).

This would be practice for asteroids also.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 07:37:38)


Done.

Offline

#1445 2023-11-07 08:29:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, I might be doing ok with this hardware assembly.  It is a block diagram, a minimum to illustrate.

cXYfnkF.png

L1 and C1 are one Starship, Locomotive and Cabin.
L2 and C2 are one Starship, Locomotive and Cabin.

A solar panel and sunshade, may make it possible to store some propellants in L1 and keep them cool.  The stack when possible will point L1 at the sun to provide a solar flare shielding for C1 and C2.

I have imagined a Vast Space Spin Baton joined by a magnetic bearing as a trial balloon.

I would have liked to interpose it between C1 and C2, and even spin the whole stack but I fear gyroscopic disaster.

The way I show it then periodically a method is needed to move passengers and crew between C1 and C2 and the spin baton.  In the event of a solar flare the people in the spin baton have to get to the hub for protection.  They may also sleep there as well.

The spin baton may well be left at Phobos or Deimos, so it will not be wasted.
Each Starship might be able to land on Mars, or be more like a Lunar Starship.

If someone has suggestions or corrections that would be welcome.

Done

If possible, the assembly would be boosted to mars with a nuclear propulsion system that would not leave the Earths' hill sphere.

Done

If possible "Good Enough" spin gravity would be employed, not a full 1 g.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 08:39:23)


Done.

Offline

#1446 2023-11-07 10:49:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to talk a little more about the nature of the "Shell".  I do not intend that it should hold air pressure. The reasons to wrap a cylinder of slag brickwork in tensile materials is of course to hold things together, but also the interior may have rails.  A synthetic gravity device within, might ride those rails.  We also will want resilience against impactors as well.

The shell might also serve as a radiator, if piping is associated with it so it could be the cold side of a heat engine.  The hot side could be solar or nuclear.

And of course, it is to be a radiation protection and may also regulate the interior temperatures as well.

And I also want it to be bulky so that it is heavy and also has a lot of inertia.

We will want 'Blow-Out" panels also for the chances of an explosive event inside.  My original concept had a open cylinder end.

And I do have an idea to hang greenhouses to the exterior of the cylinder wall, where you might be able to physically move from a module on the inside to a greenhouse module on the outside of the wall.  In case you need to escape radiation.

I have notions of water filled greenhouses, but those are a rather new thing, and it would be conditional on the availability of water of course.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 12:30:56)


Done.

Offline

#1447 2023-11-07 12:40:00

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Since I mentioned adding some Nuclear: "Nuclear propulsion up close and personal!! Pulsar Fusion!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBd09Um9p0c
Quote:

Nuclear propulsion up close and personal!! Pulsar Fusion update!!

The Angry Astronaut
121K subscribers

An interesting video.

Done

Somehow there is always more.  If Argon Electric Nuclear became a thing, then I would guess that Methane might be move to a high orbit from Earth, and Oxygen to that orbit maybe from the Moon.  Then Starship could be filled in that high orbit.  That would be more efficient than Nuclear Thermal, I expect.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 13:12:11)


Done.

Offline

#1448 2023-11-07 13:13:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I am back to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p215662
Quote:

A simple drawing suggesting possibility's: f6X9tDC.png

My thinking here is that you could make many of these cylinders at a polar location, sitting parallel to each other.

And you could erect a very high scaffold with mirrors that could shine light into the interiors of the cylinders if they have an open end.

Having the cylinders side by side, then reduces the needed thickness of some of the cylinders, as those in the center would be somewhat protected from space problems by those adjacent to them.

The collection of cylinders may be joined by structure so that the whole expanding system would become more stable.  As the footprint expanded, then the scaffolding holding mirrors could also be expanded.  In some cases a cylinder might hold solar panels somewhat protected.  In some cases a cylinder may hold a greenhouse, of some type of pressurization.


Pause.................

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 13:20:51)


Done.

Offline

#1449 2023-11-07 14:45:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Mars_B4_Moon posted this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p215682
It is a discouraging word about "Plans to Build Cities in Space".

I have noticed as I expect others have, that reporting on subjects like this tend be either manic or depressive.
The article may have some truth to it.  So, that is why I am working on space cities using materials from Phobos/Deimos/and Mars.

I think it will be a whole before we can use Lunar materials in large bulk, but there should become space stations in LEO.

But to me it looks like Phobos/Deimos/Mars can be a place where it can happen earlier.

In my recent posts I have been moving towards parallel cylinders lashed together on the surface of a pole of Phobos or Deimos.  I know recognize that this is beginning to resemble this:

Quote:

So then these sintered cylinders don't necessarily have to be kept on the surface of a world, a collection of them could orbit worlds like Mars.

So, then a Sintered Jar like this might host things inside of it: OKGVGlj.png

I showed a simple balloon of water, but I would favor a water filled torus, where the water may induce pressurization on the interior floor of the torus, allowing the windows to not have to be especially strong.  These would be great places to grow aquatic crops, but with transparent air-filled diving bells then terrestrial crops could also be grown.  Humans may be able to walk/swim on the bottom without a protective suit other than for breathing.

So then these Jars could be lashed in Parallel together into a Megga Satellite.

A water torus inside of a Sinter Jar should provide a lot of radiation protection.

I think it is time to give it a rest though.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 15:13:30)


Done.

Offline

#1450 2023-11-07 15:57:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess I will make a post about conserving Mars atmosphere and water.

A magnetic field for Mars will help with that.  There is a notion that dust from Phobos could do some good.  Here is an article about that: https://www.inverse.com/science/mars-mo … etic-field

Some people think that tethers could lift things off of the ground.  Also, it may be possible to use Mass Drivers on Mars.

But there may be a caution about thickening the atmosphere too much.  A thicker atmosphere would help with radiation, but might interfere with Mass Drivers.

I am very fond of the notion of habitat for humans in orbit of Mars, it is plain to see.

Just now I am obsessing a bit about water fille torus for farming.

In this case I have suggested the joining of 3 torus inside of a "Sinter Jar".

Two are water filled and water pressurized that will be the two blue ones.
The Grey one will be of metal, and not much for windows.  They will all spin together and be joined by passages.

This should give some good radiation protection.

It is likely preferred that most of the water in the water torus be rather cold, so then put some poly tents on the bottom and fill them with warmer water or air.  And you could dump a lot of light into them for farming.  The differential pressure the windows would have to hold might be very low.  Perhaps 25 mbar?  So that should reduce leakage to space.

I would hope to avoid gyroscopic problems.  It may be that the Jars will be part of a Megga Satellite, so maybe that will be fine.

At any rate any water or air that leaks out will tend to fall back to the Martian atmosphere, so then could be reused.

I think that this begins to suggests a good place for immigrants to live in orbit.

I think that it is getting there.

Done

iaHcUWu.png

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-07 23:45:09)


Done.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB