Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-10-08 11:11:38

The nurture of the establishment of infrastructure and the settlements of Humans. For the moment, this is the level of my unsderstanding of it.

Human against Human, or Human against the Not Human.

I have attempted to update "Man against Man or Man against Nature". The world we live in has employed multiple word tools, or prisons, in order funnel multiple political and financial process in directions they should not go in. Our societies have by accident, or it some degree been warped out of shape. Here I am talking about the USA as the greatest apparent victim of this.

I have a tendency to favor the results of societies that are more towards "Human against the Not Human". These more are the people who have more horizontal relationships between people and who are typically stimulated more to engage in higher technologies.

The other, "Human against Human", has more the tools of word tools and tools of cruelty to bind other people into servitude. These tend to favor vertical relationships between humans with dominators above the servile. They are not as likely to build ships sophistication of technology. The end goal is for a favored small pool of males to preferentially pass genes down to coming generations, and to hand "Candy" treats to the host of females who will bid to be the "Picked" ones. And below that are the unfortunate males who are not particularly good at word tools and not prepared to administer domination/cruelty to the minions.

In the USA, the two were somewhat exhibited by the development of the so called "North and South". At this time our federal government is increasingly dominated by Human against Human, and the notion of the Human against Not Human has been increasing lost. And so we see the emergency of corruption, similar to the bad old days in the Roman Empire. But we are not the Roman Empire, but those who have claimed the federal government desperately want those good old days. A vertical reality where the "Best and brightest" are the breeders', with a cushion of the host of the females and then all other males to be subordinated as the lowest of the low.

Of course these males are not the best and the brightest, they are simply good at word tools, and cruelty. So, then this will lead to gene pool and also meme damage. The gene and meme pools will lose talents needed for modern societies.

Harem breeding is not at all good. Harem breeding is a mistake as it seems to me that it would lead to something like Guerillas.

Chimps are male group dominated, and Bonobos are female group dominated. Chimps and Bonobos might use tools on occasion. But more likely Chimps.

Chimps are violently contactually oriented, and so the manipulation of objects may serve them well. Bonobos, are stimulative contaxually oriented, and so touch which is not damaging is useful.

Humans seem to have some of the attributes of both chimps and Bonobos.

I think that the rise and fall of societies might relate to the proper masculine (In both males and females) developing material success, to the extent that the improper masculine (in both male and female), can take over and drive the desired masculine out of the gene and meme pools. There after the society of suspectable to overuse of resources, and perhaps non adaptable to change, and so possibly open to conquest from a less degenerate people with still more healthy sets of genes and memes.

I think that it can be likely that the situation in the USA will correct itself in a bit of time, but it is not guaranteed.

Space then does offer a "Medication" which may assist in resetting the human race away from dealing with slaves and more towards dealing with tools that are not all of death and cruelty. So, a medicine of sorts. And we can hope that as I think is true, the society does have the ability to self-reset as well.

Procreation is simply the creation of patterns in the materials of reality, having at least four dimensions. (Pattern change over time being included).

So, replicating our patterns on other worlds can be considered procreation of pattern.

So, then to find good tools/machines for it.

My own Flip-Ship has perhaps some very marginal utility, but of course Starship is gorgeous, and Stoke Spaces ideas are divergent but offer promise, and of course there are others.

I am happy that Starship is using non fluid cooling means for heat Shielda and that Stoke Space is using Hydrogen fluid. It would be possible for either of them to switch over to various means in time it that seems merited. So, we may see these various technologies created and tested. New tools.

So, what about group activities and nesting? Are nests a tool? I am inclined to think that many nests are tools. I think that by now you might not be surprised if I point out that human males do build collective nests. Not to say that females do not contribute either, but a nest formed by a collection of males, is like a womb.

The typical action of the elites is to identify common males as useless sperm doners. That is an effort to devalue males, and demand their services for a lesser price. It is clever but not nice at all. Often they focus on animals, often mammals, where the purpose of the male is to arrive at a mating situation and be accepted and thereafter he is of no help to nurturing, and even may be a threat to offspring. Of course, humans are much more like birds but are also collective to some extent much of the time. A single man and women do not build a city, but a collection of humans does. Perhaps a bit like pack animals. Is a wolf den a nest, a tool?

I will not earn joy from many people, but the question is, if some people are an inconvenience to us, can we delete them from our womb?

It is my notion and not proven that a group of males without females may likely, exhibit the feminine traits needed as a collective behavior.

And on the other hand a group of females without males will exhibit masculine traits collectively.

I think then that feminism as we have experienced it is a rape action. They do not do the masculine with any grace at all.

But that is just what I think and who cares?

But the nurturing of the future and the tools we use, are important.

To the off worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-08 12:44:57)

Void · 2023-10-08 20:29:15

Per the last post, things said may or may not be true. Some of what I said is from what I have read.

It is really not that much of a problem. If the things said are correct, I believe that reality will force a correction to improper deviation eventually. Thinking that, tilting at windmills about it are not a good action to bother with.

Where I am wrong or not enough informed, then I am only yet another nut case, usually to be ignored by the high powers. And I don't mind that.

Hardware discussions may likely be less of an annoyance.

Starship Heat Shield is fairly defined in internet news. They are not focusing on fluids to cool overheated parts, but in the future, they have the option to explore such an option of fluids cooling methods. The space shuttle did define heat shielding tiles, but I am thinking that is true. But I am supposing that SpaceX and perhaps Dream Chaser may be refining that technology in newer ways.

Stoke Space using Hydrogen as a boiler type cooling method.

But I am wondering about other coolants. For Mars that could be CO2, or Nitrogen, or Argon. I don't know how possible that can be to work.

Stoke Space on Mars would be interesting. Maybe as Orbital or Suborbital.
It seems to me that CO2 as a coolant might be easier than Hydrogen, but I don't know if it could be effective.
bring loads down from orbit delivered to Mars orbits by some means.

I guess that is some but not complete.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-08 20:39:58)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-08 21:08:49

For Void re #1352

I'm picking up on your interesting idea of using CO2 as a coolant for a spacecraft cooling system at Mars.

In a post not long ago, Calliban commented upon the suitability of the SpinLaunch system for the Moon, and he might have mentioned Mars. I don't know if the existing SpinLaunch system can reach orbital altitudes at Mars, but it is reported to be able to reach 40 miles on Earth, and that is with a test system, as I understand it. I bring this up because your proposal for a CO2 cooling system for use at Mars would be nicely complemented with a low cost CO2 delivery system from the surface of Mars. I think you've mentioned Phobos as a likely way station for space traffic reaching Mars, so a shuttle service from Phobos to the surface would be a possibility.

If a SpinLaunch system is used to deliver propellant to Phobos, then the cost of that propellant would (most likely) be less than would be the case if traditional chemical rocket technology is used, and some of that propellant could be shipped in the form of dry ice. That dry ice could then be made into propellant at Phobos, or just warmed up to serve as coolant for a dynamically cooled heat shield for a reusable shuttle craft. Thus, the uninterrupted solar energy available at Phobos could be enlisted to support transportation to and from Mars.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-10-09 05:26:49

A 40 mile ceiling on Earth equates to a launch velocity of 1.1km/s, maybe 1.2km/s when air resistance is accounted for. To achieve lunar escape, they would need to roughly double that. But the moon is a vacuum and has lower gravity, which makes the job of building a fast spinning centrifuge easier.

On Earth, spin launch doesn't do anything for us that cannot be done using a gun burning a chemical propellant to accelerate a shell. We already have naval guns that can achieve a 0.82km/s muzzle velocity using cordite.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/16-inch … Mark_7_gun

A light gas gun can easily achieve 10x that figure. On the moon, without abundant propellant, the situation is different.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-10-09 05:32:58)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-09 06:31:19

For Calliban re SpinLaunch in Post #1354

Thanks for the calculation of the capability of the present test version of SpinLaunch. The next and succeeding versions of the device will seek to find the limits of materials for the throw arm. This is a demonstration machine, and apparently it has succeeded in meeting the carefully programmed test objectives.

Your leaning is toward pessimism, so it is understandable you would assume the SpinLaunch developers have reached the end of the line of what is possible.

I lean toward optimism, so am assuming the actual limits of tension strength are not yet anywhere near the present configuration.

The developers are (as I recall) intending to put objects into orbit using a kick rocket to finish the delivery, so they don't need to reach orbit to have a successful business model.

However, due to the competitive pressures to which you referred in your recent essay on War, inevitably humans will find the limits of what is possible. I have no way of knowing what those limits may turn out to be, but I am ** very ** doubtful we are anywhere near them.

Your prediction the SpinLaunch folks need to double their performance to reach escape from the Moon is helpful for us to watch as they improve their equipment.

(th)

Void · 2023-10-09 08:41:37

Well, the introduction of methods to put propellants in orbit of Mars are interesting.

I was considering just that a Mars based system and perhaps one with fluid cooling of it's heat shielding could get its propellants and cooling fluids directly from Mars itself on the surface.

But you have stimulated a modification of that. If you brought Carbon from the surface, then you could react it with the rocks of Phobos and Deimos to extract Oxygen and reduce the "Ores", using solar heating to accelerate the reaction.

And so you have then got reduced materials and CO2. So about 2/3 of your CO2 came then from a Martian moon Phobos or Deimos and 1/3 from Mars itself.

The resulting CO2 might be usable as a coolant for spacecraft heat shields, I don't know for sure at this time. But also Carbon and Oxygen could be used as propellants. That at least is an option.

The primary function might be then to bring Carbon up to Phobos and manufactured goods down to the Martian surface.

Of course, those manufactured goods could come from Phobos, Deimos, our Moon or Earth.

It is possible that some Carbon can come from Phobos and Deimos as well.

By whatever means might be possible it is probably more practical to move and store Carbon to Mars orbits from Mars, than to do so for CO2.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-09 08:50:14)

Void · 2023-10-09 10:26:44

As far as the Moon goes, I am currently favoring methods to hard land plastics. Those plastics might be sourced from the Earth, and maybe also the polar areas if Carbon is available, on the Moon. Maybe even from Mars?. The hard landing of plastics might provide a basis to manufacture Water and Methane, and CO and Carbon.

Water is of course "The Stuff of Life" and the other 3 are fuels. Plastics in themselves can be use to manufacture objects on the Moon.

And CO2 might be used as a coolant for aerobraking into the Earth's atmosphere. But aerobraking into the Earths' atmosphere is harder than aerobraking into the Martian atmosphere as for the energy that has to be dissipated.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-09 10:28:02)

Void · 2023-10-10 14:45:14

Some more about plastics then.

My current interests concern, Melting Points, Pyrolysis of Plastics, and Prechill of Plastics. Also shapes of plastic objects.

A wiki on plastics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

So, melting points may not be a true thing for some plastics, they just get softer with heat, it seems. Well, this is a nice reference: https://www.plastikcity.co.uk/useful-st … %20rows%20

A table in it seems to give some nice information on melting for plastics.

The pyrolysis of plastics may very well be important. Here is something on it: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 00027/full
Pyrolysis will be important as if you drop plastics from a spacecraft, you probably do not want it to heat to the point of pyrolysis. However, eventually you may want to process plastics by pyrolysis, to provide Oils, fuels, water and perhaps other things.

Prechilling plastic objects before the drop could affect the drop results.

Involving substances like dry ice or water ice, in the impact heating process may alter the results, if you can afford to provide that method.

Example: You bring Carbon up from the surface of Mars and react it with Oxygen from Phobos. You then create dry ice to freeze your plastic in. By some method and to some degree you drip the object to the Mars surface, and the heat of the impact is carried off by the dry ice evaporating. You could, of course do this with water ice by lifting Hydrogen to orbit to create water from Oxygen from Phobos.

If you dropped plastics from an altitude, onto an ice body a similar process might occur. We have ice in Korolev Crater, and also the seasonal dry ice caps of Mars to consider doing this with.

Supposing you had high accuracy for your impact, you might have a snow maker on Mars and make a large and thick bed of snow for your plastics to impact into.

For the Moon this might be much more limited, but you could chill the plastic prior to impact, and you could impact cold regolith, but that might make the plastic dirty. I guess you may or may not want to do that.

Again if you had high accuracy, you might have a metal or rock plate that was prechilled that your plastic would impact on. Even if the plastic melted it may quickly cool off by contact with that cold object. In this case the plastic might not get that dirty.

As for shape. I have suggested plastic chains to dangle, or even be dropped from an altitude.

I also suggest a canister, perhaps attached to the outside of a ship where you would have packed many objects similar to flattened balloons. They would each have a small amount of gas in them but would be packed so tight that they were all flattened like a pancake(s). The upon ejection, they would inflate to a disc, perhaps and not exceed a terminal velocity of disintegration of the balloons.

With a limited velocity on Mars, they might survive impact with a bounce. The terminal velocity will somewhat depend on the mass of the balloons, and how much they are slowed by the atmosphere. Also, it would make a difference how high the atmospheric pressure is where they would land, and how dense per atmospheric temperature the atmosphere was where they would land. Also, it would matter what the surface was like that they landed on.

For the Moon, only limited unchecked freefall time would limit impact speed. So, more limited on altitude, I expect. But other factors will apply.

Doing something like this on Mars may not be as useful as for the Moon, but it may have a place somewhere in the development of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-10 15:32:54)

Void · 2023-10-12 07:40:12

I support the notion of Starship striving to land on Mars, at first as robotic, I presume.

But over time, I anticipate the creation of a sort of pyramid, where the Earth is the base, and LEO space stations the next level up, then towards the Moon, and likely over time beyond that.

I comply with the notion that a significant mass has to be shipped to Mars to make a successful establishment of an offshoot of what we are.

I would like to see what contribution to that that the Moon could give.

As far as the delivery of plastics or some better substitute for that to the surface of the Moon, I do still support the notion that a ship can unload cargo prior to landing, to make the final landing effort less of a burden on the ship.

We might even consider a sky crane idea, where the ship does not land at all, but in that case, it cannot take propellants into itself from the surface of the Moon.

Before I go further, I now consider skyhooks or space elevators for the Moon. Well, if you can do it, that would be wonderful, but it is a bit like a little child deciding on being an Olympic sprinter, before being able to crawl. I am looking for a "Next Thing" that comes before the "Fabulous Things" that might someday be made real.

I would like to consider a modification of this as a lander and 2nd stage to launch, a very peculiar method: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p213462

Looking at engines #2 and #3, these could be moved further down the side of the ship if desired. They would be like the final landing engines of the Lunar Starship. I do not want engines on the bottom of the ship as it is likely that we are going to be dropping stuff from the bottom area prior to landing. I presume that the ships engines will use Oxygen and also will also use a fuel, which is likely fluid. On landing it might bring enough fuel along to go to orbit again, or if it is efficient to deliver plastics and fuels can be cooked out of the plastics, it might be refueled on the surface of the Moon from that. It would be refilled with Oxygen from the Moon, on the Lunar surface.

An addition to this scheme has developed in my mind. It is early and crude, and not precisely defined at this point, so actually has an unknown potential. Building a one-time use 1st stage to put under the fluid fueled lander I previously mentioned above. Building these mostly or entirely from Lunar materials.

We want to be able to think upside down and inside out for this.

For the Moon notions of solid rockets exist. And also, it might be possible to boost a solid rocket with a Mass Driver. But these things would need navigation and guidance to achieve proper Lunar orbit.

But if we stack the landing on top of one, and do not expend stage #1, we can then tow the mass of stage #1 to a salvage area in orbit, to be repurposed, reprocessed. The 1st Stage helps to boost the stack to orbit, but the lander does guidance, and when the solid burns out the lander still has control of it.

Once in orbit, engine #1 on the lander may be the efficient way to propel the stack to its destination.

I am not a solid rocket expert, but we have such a person in our membership. That member can be much more accurate than me for this, but I am going to muddy the waters with some of my own hopeful notions.

OK, well little sigh. It is necessary to be patient, as I know that some have considered the making of rockets from Lunar materials, but I am encountering search engine dogma. This is not to whine too much the internet is wonderful, but recent history has fixated on the production of liquid fuels from the presumed polar ice deposits, (Which I think are likely), and so I haven't gotten to solid rocket notions.

If I understand things well, then lifting mass from the Moons equator, is easier than from the Moons poles, presuming you have the similar means of lifting.

I start with the Alice Rocket, as it is a real thing. It consumes water though, (Hydrogen, especially), so it is not what I ultimately want, but it is a good start, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
So, Alice is something like a thermite reaction which members here introduced the notion of to me some months ago.

Nano Aluminum as a fuel might be convenient on the Moon, as it can be kept away from Oxygen I presume.

On the Moon, I shy away from using Hydrogen in Rockets where not required. So, can we consider an Alice Rocket where the Ice is mostly CO2 with a pinch of water ice? Dropping Plastic to the Lunar surface, and using pyrolysis, water and oils could be made available and from this also after burning the oils more water and CO2 which you could convert to Dry Ice. And you might throw some Iron Oxide powder into it as well. I am not a rocket man, so these are crude guesses. And there should be some other chemistries also. I am not a chemist.

I have been told that a thermite reaction is used to weld railroad tracks. So, although such a reaction is not directly useful for rockets as not enough expanding gases are produced, it would be a source of heat, and then that could vaporize CO2 ice. The question is do you intend to send the solid results of that thermite reaction into the rocket exhaust, or will you try to retain some of that into the rocket?

Keep in mind that for the Up-Mass from the Moon, the expended 1st stage solid or Hybrid rocket shell is the payload. You do not dump it off, you hang onto it and use the 2nd stage to maneuver it to a preferred orbit and location in such an orbit.

I would prefer not to use Hydrogen or Carbon in such a solid or hybrid rocket at all, but for now that is a method that I think could be plausible. I think that there may be chemistries that will not need them, but I don't yet know what those are.

---

I have recently considered Stage Zero landing and launch assistance. I wanted to move in a different direction for these.

The lander/2nd stage may drop its cargo and then land on a soft pad, allowing it to conserve a bit of propellants if possible/desired.
My notion is that the lander should have enough propellants to do an unassisted landing but if things are optimal for an assisted landing it would use that method and conserve propellants.

Mass Drivers: I am in favor of "Wind Up" Mass Drivers. Using electromagnetics to assist the launch of a "Stack" would be very complex, probably not practical from my view.

I suggest you consult the Swiss. They have a very good notion of fine mechanical mechanisms. Historically clocks and such, which would have been "Wind Up".

America is good, but not for everything. Actually, only for some things.

We might be looking at gravitational, flywheel, spring loaded (Catapult), or perhaps gunpowder piston (Which might also be a catapult method).

----

The intent is to start with the lander/2nd stage without any assistance, then develop assistance. As a 1st stage solid or hybrid rocket is then also payload, then that is rather desired.

And then over time to develop stage "0" landing and launch assistance technologies.

----

While human transport usually would not be involved in such a system, I guess it is not strictly prohibited, except in many cases the human body could not endure the process in good health.

If the method to lift Lunar mass to orbit is efficient enough then materials for export to other locations possibly including Mars, may make the process profitable even if the plastics have to come from Earth.

But eventually the plastics might come from elsewhere.

The Moons poles are not ruled out, but I prefer to use Carbon and Hydrogen on the Moons surface if possible.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-12 09:15:04)

Void · 2023-10-12 10:13:30

As far as I can determine Relativity Space is the furthest along for 3D printing whole rockets.

https://www.relativityspace.com/
Quote:

A rocket company at the core, Relativity Space is on a mission to become the next great commercial launch company. With an ever-growing need for space infrastructure, demand for launch services is continuously outpacing supply. Our 3D printed reusable rockets can meet this demand, offering customers the right size payload capacity at the right cost. Leveraging advances in additive manufacturing, we are strategically focused on reducing vehicle complexity, cost, and time to market. Our patented technologies enable innovative designs once thought impossible and unlock new value propositions in the booming space economy.

So, if on the Moon, then this process might be adapted to create one time use solid or hybrid rockets to be used as payload/1st stage of a rocket stack for lifting mass from the Moons surface.

So, this is rather important and needs to be protected from the "Looters". (Ann Rand).

https://www.masterresource.org/rand/ran … ic-energy/
Quote:

Creation comes before distribution—or there will be nothing to distribute. The need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary.

Quote:

When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – When you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – When you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you – When you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – You may know that your society is doomed.

Quote:

Then you will see the rise of the double standard—the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money—the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law, men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims, then money becomes its creators’ avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they’ve passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality.

So, consider that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-12 10:23:08)

Void · 2023-10-12 11:36:46

Searching for chemistry for rockets on the Moon, I stumbled on this which is worth a look also.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-42008-1
Quote:

Published: 12 October 2023
Laser melting manufacturing of large elements of lunar regolith simulant for paving on the Moon
Juan-Carlos Ginés-Palomares, Miranda Fateri, Eckehard Kalhöfer, Tim Schubert, Lena Meyer, Nico Kolsch, Monika Brandić Lipińska, Robert Davenport, Barbara Imhof, René Waclavicek, Matthias Sperl, Advenit Makaya & Jens Günster

Of course this will be helpful for infrastructure on the Moon.

OK, this is getting on target: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 6588901920
Quote:

Acta Astronautica
Volume 17, Issue 10, October 1988, Pages 1093-1097
Acta Astronautica
Hybrid rocket propellants from lunar material
Author links open overlay panelDouglas R. Sparks

Quote:

Abstract
This paper examines the use of lunar material for hybrid rocket propellants. Liquid oxygen is identified as the primary oxidizer and metals such as aluminum, magnesium, calcium, titanium and silicon are compared as possible fuels. Due to the reduced transportation costs, the use of lunar materials for both oxidizer and fuel will dramatically reduce the cost of a sustained space program. The advantage of hybrid rocket systems over liquid and solid rockets is discussed. It is pointed out that this type of hybrid rocket propellant could also be obtained from asteroidal and planetary soils, thereby facilitating the exploration and industrialization of the inner solar system.

So, a hybrid rocket is perhaps more controllable than a solid rocket. It may be that some parts of the 1st stage would be brought back down to the Moons surface to be reused.

The bulk though might be converted to construction materials in Earth/Moon orbits, I suggest.

In this system with a hybrid rocket booster, perhaps also the lander could be topped off with Oxygen so that it could serve to export Liquid Oxygen.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-12 11:45:23)

Calliban · 2023-10-12 17:14:56

For Void:
https://www.chemicalaid.com/tools/equat … 2O3+%2B+CO

This is specifically relevant to an engine that can burn fuel in CO2.

2Al + 3CO2 = Al2O3 + 3CO

Energy release works out at 27MJ/kg Al. This is only half the dHc of diesel fuel on Earth. But aluminium is much denser at 2700kg/m3, which is 3x greater than diesel. So aluminium burned in Martian air would release about twice as much heat per litre as diesel would on Earth.

If we burned the fuel in liquid oxygen:

2Al + 1.5O2 = Al2O3

dHc = 31MJ/kg Al. But this declines to 16.4MJ/kg when the mass of oxygen is considered. On Mars, we would have to carry oxygen, whereas CO2 can be sourced from the air. So using the Martian atmosphere as oxidiser could make sense.

Void · 2023-10-12 19:24:19

Thanks Calliban,

This sounds like something which could indeed have use on Mars. I would also suggest that some small amount of water might be included, so that a bit of Hydrogen will be in the mix, which I understand is supposed to have some value in rocket propulsion.

I understand now why it would not be very desired on Earth with the CO in the exhaust.

This is yet another arrow we could keep in a quiver.

Done

Void · 2023-10-12 19:29:06

I am rather satisfied with the recent posts in this topic. Time for an intermission perhaps. Some interesting videos:

---
(Spaceship Factories

Isaac Arthur
761K subscribers):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fj5w8BwBE8

Kalliope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_Kalliope
Image Quote:
Quote:

Characteristics
VLT image of Kalliope
Kalliope is somewhat elongated, approximately 166 km in diameter,[3] and slightly asymmetric, as evidenced by resolved images taken with the VLT at the European Southern Observatory. This new diameter, which was measured by observing mutual eclipses of Kalliope and Linus, is 8% smaller than that calculated from IRAS observations.[3]
The spectrum of Kalliope is an M-type, indicating that its surface may be partially composed of iron–nickel metal. The asteroid's density is about 3.4 g/cm3.[3] Since the asteroid is likely to be a rubble pile, accounting for a possible porosity of 20–40% leads to the material density of 4.2–5.8 g/cm3, which means that Kalliope is probably made of a mixture of metal with silicates.[3] Spectroscopic studies have shown, however, evidence of hydrated minerals[7] and silicates,[8] which indicate rather a stony surface composition. Kalliope also has a low radar albedo,[5] which is inconsistent with a purely metallic surface.
Lightcurve analysis indicates that Kalliope's pole most likely points towards ecliptic coordinates (β, λ) = (−23°, 20°) with a 10° uncertainty,[9][10] which gives Kalliope an axial tilt of 103°. Kalliope's rotation is then slightly retrograde.

So, a rubble pile with metals, silicates and hydrated minerals sounds rather good.

---
(Go to TheAngryAstronaut
r/TheAngryAstronaut
•
2 days ago
TheAngryAstronaut
Join

New Photon Drive! Mars in 20 minutes?! Jupiter in 3 hours! And how is Oumuamua involved?)
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … iter_in_3/

Some of my interest in this one is that I feel laser power projected to ships and worlds, might be used to project mass which could have value.

Silicon Nitride: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_nitride
Quote:

Silicon nitride is a chemical compound of the elements silicon and nitrogen. Si
3N
4 (Trisilicon tetranitride) is the most thermodynamically stable and commercially important of the silicon nitrides,[6] and the term ″Silicon nitride″ commonly refers to this specific composition. It is a white, high-melting-point solid that is relatively chemically inert, being attacked by dilute HF and hot H
3PO
4. It is very hard (8.5 on the mohs scale). It has a high thermal stability with strong optical nonlinearities for all-optical applications.[7]

So, maybe it would be good for a boiler for a heat engine or a propulsion method.

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(The Angry Astronaut, Nuclear Starships and Robot Children, 9 hours ago):
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … exclusive/

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Some far-out notions and also some very useful notions, I feel.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-12 20:28:49)

Void · 2023-10-12 21:04:41

Returning now to previous posts: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 49#p214749
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p214750
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p214750
Quote:

Searching for chemistry for rockets on the Moon, I stumbled on this which is worth a look also.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-42008-1
Quote:
Published: 12 October 2023
Laser melting manufacturing of large elements of lunar regolith simulant for paving on the Moon
Juan-Carlos Ginés-Palomares, Miranda Fateri, Eckehard Kalhöfer, Tim Schubert, Lena Meyer, Nico Kolsch, Monika Brandić Lipińska, Robert Davenport, Barbara Imhof, René Waclavicek, Matthias Sperl, Advenit Makaya & Jens Günster
Of course this will be helpful for infrastructure on the Moon.
OK, this is getting on target: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 6588901920
Quote:
Acta Astronautica
Volume 17, Issue 10, October 1988, Pages 1093-1097
Acta Astronautica
Hybrid rocket propellants from lunar material
Author links open overlay panelDouglas R. Sparks
Quote:
Abstract
This paper examines the use of lunar material for hybrid rocket propellants. Liquid oxygen is identified as the primary oxidizer and metals such as aluminum, magnesium, calcium, titanium and silicon are compared as possible fuels. Due to the reduced transportation costs, the use of lunar materials for both oxidizer and fuel will dramatically reduce the cost of a sustained space program. The advantage of hybrid rocket systems over liquid and solid rockets is discussed. It is pointed out that this type of hybrid rocket propellant could also be obtained from asteroidal and planetary soils, thereby facilitating the exploration and industrialization of the inner solar system.
So, a hybrid rocket is perhaps more controllable than a solid rocket. It may be that some parts of the 1st stage would be brought back down to the Moons surface to be reused.
The bulk though might be converted to construction materials in Earth/Moon orbits, I suggest.
In this system with a hybrid rocket booster, perhaps also the lander could be topped off with Oxygen so that it could serve to export Liquid Oxygen.
Done.

At this point I feel somewhat confident that a first stage hybrid rocket could be made of considerable size. And the 2nd stage lander could be put on top of it in a stack.

As for launch assistance I have suggested mechanical mass drivers.

I guess I will also go to one of my sillier notions, ground engines as well.

If you had "Ground Engines" that ran on metal fuels and Oxygen, and if you had sail like flanges on the 1st stage, and the 1st stage was in a silo, then you might accelerate the stack using power from the ground engines, Of course the 1st and 2nd stage engines might be firing all at the same time.

And alternative might be if you had a bowl shaped depression and the stack in the center with "Sail Flanges" on the 1st stage booster. Then ground engines would all fire into the bowl, and the exhaust gas would deflect off the bowl and converge into a focus on the 1st stage, squirting it upward more or less while both the 1st and 2nd stages would be firing their engines.

It is a silliness/work in progress.

Of course, I do not abandon the idea of mechanical or electro-mechanical launch assistance.

So, again the purpose of the 2nd stage in this situation is to be the brains of the stack, and to have the guiding thrusters. It also would then circularize the orbit after the hybrid rocket had turned off.

But it may also be possible to turn the hybrid rocket on again to help do that.

Anyway, to put a big chunk of mass in orbit(s) that could be repurposed, then we might inch our way towards some of the notions in the previous post.

Done

This is a wonderful addition by Calliban to the site: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p214761
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,858
Email
Cast basalt appears to be extremely tough, with a compressive strength of about 300MPa (3000kg/cm2), about 10x greater than concrete.
https://www.abrasionresistantpipe.com/w … -tiles.pdf
Bending strength is only 1/10th as much, but is still 30MPa. If basalt can be cast into rectangular slabs, it would made an excellent paved road surface. The slabs would be settled on a layer of fine regolith, beneath which would be a layer of coarser stone.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

So, obviously beyond my expectations, and likely useful on other worlds including the Moon, I would hope.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-12 21:25:06)

Void · 2023-10-13 08:26:38

I have been considering the various tricks that have recently been collected together in this topic. I was thinking of alternate options of including and excluding those "Tricks", and yet I have now another one, "Center of Gravity Gimbaling".

I am a bit familiar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimbaled_thrust
Quote:

In a gimbaled thrust system, the engine or just the exhaust nozzle of the rocket can be swiveled on two axes (pitch and yaw) from side to side. As the nozzle is moved, the direction of the thrust is changed relative to the center of gravity of the rocket.

What I have in mind would not be used for Earth, so we have not so much seen it. I think the Apollo capsule used something like it to navigate while descending though the Earth's atmosphere.

I think a surfer uses it to navigate the surf board: https://magazine.scienceconnected.org/2 … e-surfing/
Image Quote: US-Open-of-Surfing-at-Hungtington-Beach-by-Verse-Photography-featured_edited.jpg

Launching from a relatively airless (Airless for all practical purposes), world, then you could have weights on the sides of the 1st stage, which would have motors of some sort, gas or electric or I suppose hydraulic in some cases.

So, then giving a hybrid rocket with metal fuels and Oxygen as the combustion method, you might use shifting weights to steer the device as it ascends to orbit.

And a hybrid rocket might be restarted, so it might not need any assistance from an attached 2nd stage at all. And so, you would not need any amount of hydrocarbon fuels to get it into a Lunar orbit. I might also suspect that a system like this might even work for Mars. I am not as sure about Mars as I am the Moon.

There are a number of reasons why it would not be so good to do it for launches from Earth. Atmospheric drag is one of them.

I think a lot of people have trouble wrapping their head around the notion that the "Device is its own payload". That would be the case for this device. If they could be mass produced on the Moon, and launched, then this could be a core method of getting mass from the Moon to orbits of the Moon and elsewhere.

The device would need a metal core which could be preheated to a degree in some cases, and also an Oxygen tank.

The payload would be what is left of the solid metal core, and the Oxygen tank and the residual Oxygen tank.

Form there if it is economically assistive, you might then add on a 2nd stage to guide the 1st stage. You may indeed drop plastics from the lander/2nd stage during its down cycle, you might include the use of landing assistance for the 2nd stage, (A soft landing pad). You might add on mechanical mass drivers to the method.

And you might consider ground engines. I think I will take the trouble to explain that just a bit more.

Pause......................

I think that this will explain it quite a bit:

So, ground engines are part of Stage '0' in this case, and could also be labeled matter projectors.

While for Earth this would be absurd, for the Moon and Microgravity it might not be.

Coffee Pause................

Ground Engines of a chemical nature could be very powerful, and they might gimbal in the classic form. So, as a group they might focus on the target as it rises, and the collision of the collective output might not spread as easily as the exhaust from a single engine might.

Neuman Drives as a follow-up method are largely unknown as to real value. Don't know what the potential really is yet. But they might be longer range.

This setup is intended as portrayed here to launch the entire rocket with metal parachute to orbit. The assembly is to consume as much of its mas as it can to achieve the location in orbit desired. After that whatever is left over is payload.

I think I recall Calliban suggesting a assisted landing, so I will not rule out landing a lander/2nd stage with a metal parachute using ground engines. This along with a soft landing pad may conserve hydrocarbon fuels. It is possible that the launch facilities(s) could also be used for such landings.

If Neuman Drives can be made very accurate, it is possible that such a parachute sail could be used to move larger distances up and down in the Moons gravity well also.

Pause and evaluate...............

That's plenty. I will likely be offline some of the time today.

Done

Ok, so something more. With robotics and telepresence from Earth or Earth orbits, the labor force of the Moon could be extremely large, so then perhaps these launch devices could be mass produced.

The poles of the Moon may have some Hydrogen and Carbon, but I think it would be very good to import lots of special chemicals. Plastics can be composed of more than Carbon and Hydrogen. Nitrogen and Fluorine might be included. Wood like products also might be an option.

Now if you have landing for such materials assisted by ground engines that might help. Provided the ground engines do not consume those special chemicals to import.

Balloons for instance released from a ship, might survive better if the exhaust from the ground engines is not too hot. But in the vacuum of space, I believe that the temperature of a plume drops very quickly, so maybe it could be made to work.

And if you wanted to drop some type of metal alloys, then make a metal parachute for it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-13 09:30:59)

Void · 2023-10-13 10:30:38

For the use of ground engines and a "Metal Parachute", the proper size and shaped crater may be of value.

The ground engines and the rocket plume should make a bubble of exhaust, and the berms of the berms of the crater and the bowl shape of the crater may help to hold that bubble in place during the launch, reflecting exhaust also back at the parachute.

So, the Moons craters could be an asset in that way, at least some of them.

Done

Void · 2023-10-13 11:42:54

So, I need to show that yes, at first Starship LEO > Mars without the Moon, makes sense to do robotic investigations, and even to set up first human bases perhaps.

But once you got the production on the Moon rolling, you could bring Oxygen to LEO from the Moon, and so Starship would refill Oxygen there, and might then also go to the orbits of the Moon to top off its Oxygen, and to receive hardware for Mars.

So, it is either silly or a plot from enemies for people to say ignore the Moon and we go to Mars only. That is just stupid, if what I think is possible for the Moon is possible in fact.

These rockets assembled on the Moon would go to a station where they would be rendered into useful devices and resources. What the Moon lacks for materials can be brought in from elsewhere. Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, from Earth at first, and then perhaps from other worlds later.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-13 11:44:24)

Void · 2023-10-13 19:16:01

Next Post under construction:

Solar Sailing Question: "Is it possible to sail "close hauled" with a solar sailship?"
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … its%20keel.
Quote:

As solar radiation travels radially away from the Sun, it is not possible to exert a force on a solar sail radially inwards. It is however possible to angle a reflective solar sail so that the force is almost tangential to the Sun, since the force is directed at right angles to the mirror surface. Navigating towards a star would largely involve slowing down the sailship, and allowing gravity to do its thing (see picture from https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eopo … nanosail-d ).

Image Quote:

I have read that solar sails can be made or Mylar or Polyimide, with a thin metal coating.

Mylar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoPET

Polyimide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyimide

So, I am just starting this notion to supplement the previous Moon posts. I see that these sails includ Hydrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen and perhaps other things. Metal as well as a coating.

If these could be manufactured at Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or alternately an asteroid like Bennu or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/162173_Ryugu

Then the films could sail themselves to Earth/Moon orbits.

So, while plastics may at first come from Earth, then these sources of plastics may be established.

The sails will be as much as is possible their own payload to deliver to Earth/Moon orbits and the surface of the Moon.

So, an economic loop could be established, where Earth directs robots on the Moon, the Moon produces Metal/Oxygen hybrid rockets and the remains of those rockets are converted into space habitats.

Some of the space habitats would be flown to Martian orbit, probably using whatever means, and also involving Ballistic Capture. Then these habitats would be enhanced with materials from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, to give full life support.

But I am going to rest on this until tomorrow perhaps.

So, Mars orbits will very possibly be the place to put large populations of people. The moons of Phobos and Deimos supplying additional materials, and where necessary Mars supplying things like Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Carbon.

Calliban provided this also:

This is a wonderful addition by Calliban to the site: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p214761
Quote:
Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,858
Email
Cast basalt appears to be extremely tough, with a compressive strength of about 300MPa (3000kg/cm2), about 10x greater than concrete.
https://www.abrasionresistantpipe.com/w … -tiles.pdf
Bending strength is only 1/10th as much, but is still 30MPa. If basalt can be cast into rectangular slabs, it would made an excellent paved road surface. The slabs would be settled on a layer of fine regolith, beneath which would be a layer of coarser stone.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
So, obviously beyond my expectations, and likely useful on other worlds including the Moon, I would hope.

So, yet another possible way to make "Tiles" for the enhancement of habitats initiated from Lunar materials, and flown to Mars.

Images of Cast Basalt Tiles / Bricks: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ca … C3&first=1

Pause until later.................

I guess I will move to another post this morning.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 07:43:15)

Void · 2023-10-14 07:44:49

I am struggling to find proper language to describe a distinction between two economic methods.

I may get close with the phrases "Kill two birds with one Stone", or "One fell swoop".

The notion of shipping something may have two divergent concepts. If you are wealthy enough then you use a box to ship something inside the box, and the box after that action may have only a small economic value or even may be a burden as it becomes trash.

The other view of that is that the box itself becomes an asset after it has helped in shipping. This is more likely to be the proper concept for frontier peoples.

A Conestoga Wagon or Prairie Schooner is an example of what I think I am talking about. The Prairie Schooner is closer to the concept of a box that may carry a payload, but the box itself is payload.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covered_wagon
Image Quote:

My understanding is that the wagon would allow a small group(s) to move from point A to point B, (Which is a masculine process), and then be used to create a startup of a settled life which may be more circular, (Which I consider to be more feminine). This is a statement about my current concepts, it is not a edict that anyone else needs to conform to the belief of.

The notion of interplanetary commerce may incorporate a diverse collection of methods. To make it effective, then the simplest is the easiest to bring into existence.

An early economic "Loop" might involve Earth, Moon, Mars, Phobos, Deimos. It might begin then to expand to other worlds such as some asteroids, and maybe Venus. The "Economic Loop" would likely be composed of segments.

Up until now we have had the Payload in a box method for space. The method then involved disposing of the box after one use. But now with Falcon 9 1st Stage the method is becoming more circular where the box is reused until failure of the box. But to extend to a point A to point B process, we need to get to a "The box is the payload" method for some circumstances, and with the various methods we might be able to establish an economic loop in a core part of the solar system.

And example of "The Box is the Payload", is time use rockets constructed from Lunar materials, then launched to orbit, then repurposed/recycled in orbit. It seems that with robotics, we can have an enormous labor pool on the Moon, with directive assistance from Earth. In orbit(s) we can also have a very large labor pool to make these delivered boxes into station/shelter/ships. These can be "Bare Bones". Only to host perhaps a small number of humans and robots, so as to not draw on the limited organics available in CIS Lunar Space.

These still being lighter weight except for small, protected areas for humans could fly to Mars or Bennu, to get organics and also more stony or metal shielding materials and materials for additional structure. Having been so outfitted then these structures would be able to take on many immigrants as settlers in orbits of Mars, and elsewhere.

From that point with strong life support of a significant human population, some of these can go into solar orbits and drift to other worlds, and even perhaps in some cases back to Earth/Moon orbits.

And now I want to move on to the idea of flying films of organic chemicals with metal coatings from organic rich objects to the Earth/Moon system, using photons.

But that can be in the next post. It will be another "The box is the Payload" concept.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 10:39:18)

Void · 2023-10-14 09:25:40

On previous occasions, I have divided Mars into "Near Mars", and "Far Mars".

In my definition, Mars itself is "Far Mars".

Anything in orbit is "Near Mars".

For both, atmospheric aerobraking is possible.

Phobos and Deimos then are part of "Near Mars". I think they are a bit easier to get to in various methods than to get to "Far Mars".

I could argue that organics might be obtained from these moons. But I have already seen that certain powers want to dispute that. They would possibly be our usual suspects, This article suggests organics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)

But let's just sidestep a binary knuckle dragging contest. I will say we do not expect to get organics from Phobos and Deimos, we will intend to get it from "Far Mars", Mars itself.

But I think it is quite reasonable to expect to get Oxygen and metals, silicates as well from Phobos and Deimos.

So then for Mars itself, can we do a plastics notion as fuel for hybrid rockets, and of course Oxygen as the Oxidizer?
These will be "The Box Is The Payload".

I think this will surpass any notions like skyhooks or mass drivers. Most chemicals needed for various plastics will be available, except perhaps Fluorine.

Mars is rather good for this, having the raw materials for it, and a low gravitation and thin atmosphere, such an "Up-Mass" method looks favorable as worth investing in.

I am not sure that ground engines and other launch assistance methods may apply, but let's neither require them nor dismiss the possibilities at this point.

Hardware shipped to Mars orbits would then access the provided plastic, and the raw materials of Phobos and Deimos to increase the amount of usable and habitable structures in Mars orbits.

Once built, these structures might migrate into solar orbits, and eventually to orbit other worlds, even the Earth/Moon.

But Plastics and metals could be used to fashion solar sails that could fly to other locations. Orbits of Earth and to the Moon are notions for that.

This post suggests how plastics lifted to Mars orbits might be refashioned into solar sails, (With a little coating of metal), and so then that could fly to other locations, such as Earth/Moon.

But if we have a Hybrid Rocket in orbit of Mars, which has sufficient plastic fuels, then we might refill its Oxygen take from the materials of Phobos and Deimos and then launch it to intercept the Earth/Moon. I would suggest a flyby of Venus, and then a ballistic capture to the Earth/Moon if that is possible.

In the Earth/Moon orbits the plastics might be used, but some of it might be shipped to the surface of the Moon, so the plastics might be fashioned into objects suitable for that.

I have previously suggested a drop ship for the purpose of dropping the plastic objects: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 49#p214749

And then we might use ground engines to receive those dropped objects and slow them down. A and B are depictions of "Ground Engines".

I think that this will explain it quite a bit:

Ground Engines would have solid fuels from the Moon and use Oxygen.

Just imagine that the rocket is not there. The ground engines will be gimballed, so that they can provide a focus for the plastic to fall into, and perhaps a cushion of some sort would be on the ground.

I agree that the plastics will be challenged to not experience pyrolysis during this drop. A metal coating might help.

So, a sky crane ship would escort the plastic objects to a drop into a ground engine assembly.
The upper reaches of the plumes may be cooled already be expansion. And the plastics may fall though fast enough that they do not Carbonize.

That is a hope.

Otherwise, if you took your hybrid rockets from Mars with plastic fuel, and added Oxygen from the Moon to the Oxygen tanks, then you might land them.

Yes, more work is needed, but I see some potentials to make a loop for an economy, involving at least Earth/Moon and Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 10:03:50)

Void · 2023-10-14 10:56:34

So, now it is apparent how important space station technology may become. Among those might be the proposed works of Vast Space. https://www.vastspace.com/

I think that the housing industry around Mars will become very important. You can get plastics from Mars, and also metals and silicates from Phobos and Deimos.

You can build starter structures from Moon/Earth materials and fly those to Mars, probably using the solar wind and ballistic capture.

Starships could also assemble into convoys, and use ballistic capture as well, and perhaps aerocapture to orbit as well.

Selling "Land" to humans, may then make a market for Martian plastics and Phobos and Deimos materials, and fine goods from the Earth/Moon.

We should expect the "Slavers" to attack this, as to them we are only properly their servants, so they will hate this, but they have to hide in the shadows under slimy rocks, or they will reveal their intentions too clearly to the public.

Of course they will attack SpaceX and Elon Musk if they can get away with it.

X (Twitter) is such an opportunity for them but perhaps it will amuse some people to see the slimy creature's squirming.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 11:03:36)

Void · 2023-10-14 11:34:51

To continue, Mars as an exporting world in this scheme is rather favored.

On top of the Shield Volcano's, you can get lots of materials, such as Carbon, Nitrogen to make plastics. Also Oxygen to use in launches.

Hydrogen you could import with a spaceship tanker that would hop from a source to the top of a mountain. Hydrogen is the light stuff, but requires a larger tank. So, you manufacture plastic rockets and Oxygen. When you launch you are near the equator and at an altitude, and very little atmosphere interferes.

In this scheme doubling the atmospheric pressure of Mars would have many benefits, including landing ships.

In time other sources of plastics in the asteroid belt and beyond might be developed. Some asteroids with the ingredients for plastics, have small gravity wells. Of course, then the product has further to go in the sun's gravity well, but methods have already been discussed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 11:40:11)

Void · 2023-10-14 13:07:36

I would also argue that if Starship can bring propellants to LEO for Earth, it should be able to bring materials like Hydrogen and Nitrogen to orbit for these habitats as well.

I have a partial notion for such habitat methods around Mars, and also will want to consider the conservation of materials over the very long term for the whole solar system.

I don't care to invest too much in this so I am keeping it rudimentary:

So, the notion is to have enough g forces to keep the mud and water reasonably in place, and that the water depth might be shallow enough for wading.

Of course the mud water layers would be a good radiation shield. This also would have an outer shell, that would protect from impactors to some extent.

Even without light this device might turn radiation into a source of biology: https://www.uri.edu/news/2021/02/uri-re … ecosystems. Quote:

URI researchers: Microbes deep beneath seafloor survive on byproducts of radioactive process
Results have implications for life on Mars
NARRAGANSETT, R.I. – February 26, 2021 – A team of researchers from the University of Rhode Island’s Graduate School of Oceanography and their collaborators have revealed that the abundant microbes living in ancient sediment below the seafloor are sustained primarily by chemicals created by the natural irradiation of water molecules.
The team discovered that the creation of these chemicals is amplified significantly by minerals in marine sediment. In contrast to the conventional view that life in sediment is fueled by products of photosynthesis, an ecosystem fueled by irradiation of water begins just meters below the seafloor in much of the open ocean. This radiation-fueled world is one of Earth’s volumetrically largest ecosystems.

This makes me wonder about making habitats like this in the radiation belts of Jupiter and other places.

But of course if you have a habitat like this likely light will also be wanted within. So, of course there are many ways. That is why I did not want to get too specific for the description of this.

And of course, radiation protection is wanted on the ends also.

Conserving materials is the next post I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 13:32:45)

Void · 2023-10-14 17:02:46

So, I am still just starting on the notion of wet-muddy, radiation shield methods. I could end up going in the trash bucket, but for now I want to work on it. Here is a modification of a previous diagram:

Possibly the main cylinder would be anchored to a parent platform, and the torus inside the cylinder would spin at a different rate than the cylinder.

The cylinder ends might be setup to allow light in though windows from mirrors as a possibility.

Again, I am only trying to suggest methods not creating a plan for a specific machine. And I am sure much better could be created.

This mud-water radiation shield is intended to generate some biological activity from the Ambient radiation in the Martian orbital environment.

I have also wondered about using it in the radiation belts of Jupiter. What if it had an elliptical orbit so that it dipped deeply into the hard radiation belts of Jupiter, but also was safe to access at the high end of it's orbit?

I don't know enough. The shell may become too radioactive to inhabit. Also, transmutation may occur.

As far as Mars goes, if an artificial magnetic field is created, then you might have some areas protected from radiation, but then would you create in other areas dangerous radiation belts?

But a correctly formed artificial magnetic field might allow Mars to collect the solar wind into itself, generating more water, perhaps.

And so, on a planetary level, materials that leak out of orbital habitats may be conserved to the planet to be reused, rather than being carried off into the universe on the solar wind.

Soon, I want to look at conservation of materials to the solar system as a whole, and even accumulating more mass from the galaxy into our solar system.

But the day is getting long.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 17:25:40)

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