Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-08-08 11:36:44

I am getting interested in the Moon. This post and several posts ahead of it can be a useful material(s) for this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p212316

Several substances can be had on the Moon, and may be enough to start up things, but eventually you might want to consider importing things like Carbon, water, and Nitrogen from other sources.

I think the case for generating 1/3 g on the Moon may be realistic. 1/3rd g may be enough for prolonged stays by adult people.

The Moon can most likely host lots of robotic devices, which could create a great deal of wealth.

So, then the Moon could really get us out into the solar system and to the stars as well eventually, perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-08 11:39:45)

Void · 2023-08-09 10:25:41

Of course, I am interested in other Space Station technology, including Vast Space, but this looks very interesting, and I am wondering if it could be on the Moon also in a different version.

Airbus Loop:
https://www.airbus.com/en/airbus-loop
Image Quote: 613587-arghmd4hjb.jpg&w=480&h=480&t=fit

Angry Astronaut:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … n_by_2028/

8 Meters in diameter.

Spincalc:
http://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/Sp … inCalc.htm
So, to supply an additional 1/6th g force on the Moon, it would have less of a spin rate than if in orbit, but of course then you also have the burden of needing better bearings to deal with the true 1/6th gravity of the Moon itself.

For the additional .167 g force:

We do not know how much 1/3 g is suitable for human health, but it seems like a good number to hope for. Mercury and Mars are ~!/3 g,

And I have read that you need more gravity than that of the Moon to have a proper up/down sensation.

I am guessing that it would give some motion sickness, but some trained and perhaps medicated adults might be able to adapt to it.

I am not sure I like the idea of piling dirt onto a can, which is a typical notion for the Moon. Instead I am thinking of having a 'A' frame of solar panels, or a cone of solar panels and having this thing inside of it. Then it seems to me that it might be better to make blocks of Lunar regolith as shielding. But time will tell.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-09 10:38:23)

Void · 2023-08-11 17:31:18

I have some notions that I want to work on here they come from a number of posts in a different topic, starting here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 97#p212297

And my jump to here is about the time of this later post here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 12#p212412

The topic this material is from is "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» What is the status today of O'Neill's vision today?"

This is somewhat the focus of the posts: https://www.universetoday.com/162697/a- … -12-years/

A subpart of the notions was to fill a spinning bag with regolith to provide an interior somewhat protected from the space environments most raw natures.

This, I think is a related article: https://futurism.com/asteroid-city-bag-bennu
Image Quote: image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwp-assets.futurism.com%2F2022%2F12%2Fasteroidcity.jpg&w=1080&q=75

So, it seems to me that by using a highly organized manufactured object you can incorporate disorganized regolith into it with tensile force opposed by centrifugal force to make the whole collection into a possibly useful object.

I am interested in the regolith of Phobos or Deimos to develop a variation on this notion.

Trying to incorporate all of either moon into this sort of a thing might be much too ambitious, as far as I am concerned. Getting some regolith into such a bag might be useful.

If you could get such a bag to spin on one of its ends on the surface of either moon, and then fling materials into the spinning bag, perhaps you could do it. The gravity would be very small, so perhaps it is not entirely ridiculous a notion. It would require some skill and methods to prevent it from flopping about and beating itself to pieces against the moon object though.

Ideas are floating about for space stations in equatorial low Earth orbit. These would be orbiting in a relatively lower radiation zone. The same would not necessarily be true for orbits of Mars, so, I am wondering if such space stations could be protected by these bags with regolith in them.

The conversation for LEO space stations is in some part in these following materials:

utube, Elon Musk Evolution, Elon Musk REVEALS FINAL Design For SpaceX's Space Station

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 1DCA2A8EA1

So, such protective devices created would provide some shelter for space stations around Mars, with rotating elements in them. Also, magnetic fields might be assistive.

Of places to have space stations can be LEO, Near Moon, On the Moon, Around Mars, (Phobos/Deimos), and Asteroids.

I think what is desired is generalized kits of devices that can be used in many places in the solar system, but which could take advantage of local favorable options.

I think that once upon a time is might have made sense to have a binary choice the Moon or Mars but not both. I don't think that we need to do that silly behavior any longer. It all may fit together. And it may be that materials from wetter and more Carbon and Nitrogen rich locations can contribute materials missing from Moon materials inventory. Mars, Earth, and some Asteroids may be sources for that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-11 18:56:51)

Void · 2023-08-11 19:40:24

Well, I am still housebound with a nasty cold, so I might as well do this goofy stuff.

Lithobraking wood or straw on the Moon?

Some tricks might include impacting a declining crater rim so as to graze the regolith and do repeated bounces. Not sure how easy that is to arrange.

And the wood or straw itself might crush to absorb some of the impact energy.

Of course Carbon might be able to have those methods as well.

I do wonder about Carbon dust impacting a crater rim.

Anyway, I have high hopes for our Moon.

Many here may not like it, but I do.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-11 19:44:11)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-11 19:40:49

For Void re Post #1228

Thanks for the image you found of the Regolith Barrel habitat design!

This is the first time I've seen that particular design.

It appears to have hard vacuum inside the barrel, which might be alleviated with one of your designs at some point, to incorporate a low pressure atmosphere.

(th)

Void · 2023-08-11 19:42:34

Yes, I am sure over time improvements might be possible.

Void · 2023-08-11 20:02:42

Back to Lithobraking, I do wonder if plastic powder or beads or ping pong balls might work to an advantage.

Also, even some metals. In time it will be desired to extract metals and such from Lunar materials, but in the beginning metal fragments might be recovered and fed into 3D printers. It is all choices, cleaning it up would cost effort, but reducing the amount of propellants to get the materials there are a cost that might be reduced.

Some metal fragments may be recoverable with DC or even alternating or pulsing magnetic fields.

I really do think it is possible that large human populations may end up on the Moon. It will depend on how well health can be maintained, and how costly it will be to import biocompatible chemicals.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-11 20:09:16)

Void · 2023-08-11 20:35:11

Some tricks that might work for our Moon, using the Neumann Drive.

The Neumann drive can use Carbon and also Iron and Aluminum as propellants.

So, could an orbiting craft shoot Carbon into Lunar regolith? Something like Helium and Hydrogen being implanted by the solar wind. I believe it can be done, but the question is can it be pointed well enough so that it can be effectively retrieves to be used on the Moon later?

This would be molecular or atomic lithobraking.

Could Neumann Drives Project Iron or Aluminum to an orbiting craft? Probably yes, but could those molecules/atoms be recovered in orbit?

That would be the hope.

I think rubble pile asteroids accumulate new stones at times as the impact of a rubble pile may disperse the impact energy to a collection of rubble. So that might be tried to set up. Maybe is you had a very strong magnetic field and a rubble of Iron particles?

So, now these matter beams coming from a Neumann Drive could also change the orbits of orbiting objects, and hopefully not damage them too much.

As for Carbon injected to the Moons surface, you might run CO+O2 engines or hot Carbon and O2 engines.

These may transport sensitive cargo like humans.

As for energy density, you may have arrays of mirrors on the surface of the Moon that could deliver concentrated sunlight to heat engines or solar panels. Also, you might use microwaves from the ground to orbital craft.

So, if we Lithobrake lots of Carbon to the Moon and some water, we might have quite a setup for a large population on or around the Moon.

If spin gravity is cheap and convenient on the Moon, then lots of people there perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-11 20:51:03)

Void · 2023-08-12 11:27:56

So, I have started a topic for Spin Gravity on small worlds: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 55#p212455
The above link leads to:
"Index» Terraformation» Adding Spin Gravity on Small Worlds."

So, two additional items are on my radar just now. Adding Volatiles to the Moon, and Driving Mass to orbit from the Moon.

There are plenty of articles for Mass Drivers from the Moon to orbit. There is also the development of the Neumann Space Drive.

I have mentioned the idea of a Neumann Mass Driver. I would hope to be able to transmit very fine materials to orbit from the exhaust of such a device and to have a receiver for it in orbit.

That would be really good if it could be made to work. I am currently thinking of a super-conductive magnetic field to capture Iron exhaust into it, and a cup or plate for the materials to impact on. The results of impact are of questioning at this point.

I suppose we might try to resort to a Rotavator as the receiver, if nothing else might work. A collector arm would swing down, and the Neumann driver would squirt iron dust into a receiver on the end of that Rotavator. The action however may affect spin rate of the device and also orbital characteristics so some tricks are needed to manage that. In theory though the rotovator could come rather close to the surface to scoop the iron dust tossed up into the "Not Air"

The magnetism of the collector may interact with the Moon itself, and that may make trouble or help with propulsion actually, I hope.

https://everything2.com/title/lunar+rot … er%20orbit. Quote:

A lunar rotovator is a rotating tether system designed by Hans Moravec.
The basic idea is that the tether is in lunar orbit at say, 50km altitude, but the tether is more than 50 km long, and spins with a counterweight so that it touches the ground one or more times per orbit. The spin is arranged so that the tip just stops relative to the lunar surface and hence can be used to pick an object off the lunar surface and throw it into space- towards the earth.
This of course takes energy, which would tend to slow the tether, but this can be compensated for catching a similar mass from the earth and dropping it down to the moons surface. This means that it can be used as a transport system.
The main material necessary to build this device is simply Kevlar, it is believed to be well within the realms of current technology; no unobtainium is needed.

So, if Iron could be lifted, then also perhaps Carbon and maybe even very chilled ices to be collected on the surface. That might be a rather usable method of Lithobraking. Keep in mind that the ice could be dropped off in the Lunar nighttime, or into a shadowed crater.

By various methods other dust than just Iron might be collected in the receiver, but that is going to be more complicated.

Wood on the Moon:
OK, I am not entirely crazy, just mostly: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … et-landing

Difference is they want to land an electronic package protected by Balsa wood and with a method to slow down. I just want to deliver wood, Carbon, and maybe water ice, maybe even Ammonia ice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-12 11:49:21)

Void · 2023-08-13 16:35:42

A rather long discussion of Tesla Bot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqR49eBB8zY

I do have ideas of robots on the Moon, and that with the relatively favorable time latency Earth<>Moon, I think that they could do a lot of interactive activities manipulating objects on the Moon. I expect this to be very valuable to the human race, if done correctly.

In support of the above, I hope to suggest useful support structures for the robots on the Moon and also to support humans on the Moon and around it.

My web of words here may be rather complex and interwoven. To start with I hope to associate thermal storage devices, Anti-Solar Cells, radiation protection, counterpressure habitat space, balance beams and perhaps some other things.

I will start with a brick structure and then connect other features. Don't get space aliens ideas about this. In truth space aliens might do some of these things, if they existed, or do eventually exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramids
Image Quote: th?id=ODL.f4cb45e51894ab933af765f29fe3aef5&w=298&h=204&c=12&rs=1&qlt=99&pcl=faf9f7&o=6&dpr=1.3&pid=13.1
OK, if pyramid were on the Moon, then it could have interior passages:

I certainly have a different design in mind, but as it happens the pyramid can illustrate how you could put hollows inside of a stone or brick structure.

The mass of the pyramid could be heated to a relatively high temperature, and you could put Anti-solar cells on its outer surfaces, so then it would be like a battery which you charged with heat. This could be good for the Moon with its long nights in many places. Of course the hollows inside might also get hot, but I think a different design which I may suggest later would handle that well enough.

But now you have a battery that tesla bots and even humans might live inside of and it is also a radiation shelter.

To heat your battery you want an electric source. Solar Panels might be a choice. And you could just lay them out on the adjacent surfaces.

But I sort of like a balance beam on the tip of the Pyramid notion. A flat surface of solar panels poised on top of a bearing on the peak of the pyramid.

This drawing is actually an A-Frame of bricks with a Roman Arch Space inside of it. I have added the suggestion of movable balance beam solar panels to the illustration:

So, it is adapted and not perfect.

We are using the peak of the A-Frame or Pyramid as a bearing point. Of course, then the solar panel has to have some strength to not break, but it is the Moon after all and with no wind and a 1/6th gravity field it is much more attainable than on Earth.

OK, we are looking at an icon view of a cutaway of an A-Frame Stone Structure on the Moon. I have shown 3 positions for the solar panel,

Sunrise, Noon, and Sunset. So, this would track the sun as it moved through the Lunar sky. In doing so it could collect solar energy but would also shade the stone structure so that much of the time, the Anti-Solar Cells could be in operation.

Some of the electricity excess during the day from the solar panels would be used to heat the stone structure. I suppose resistive heating elements are one possible way but there could be other methods.

The Roman Arch Space might be heated by the hot stone arch above it, but you have a North and South exposure which may allow cooling.

You may apply insulation and other methods to the hot and cold surfaces to maintain suitable temperatures inside of the arch space.

So, this apparatus may supply energy, thermal protection, radiation protection, and pressure containment with counter-pressure from gravitation on the substance of the stone structure. Obviously, I am only showing basic concepts. Improvements from added features are possible.

I think this is pretty good.

But you have to be able to make bricks from regolith on the Moon though.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-13 17:09:28)

Void · 2023-08-13 17:29:52

The bearing for the device might be a knife-edge bearing that is sometimes used in some types of weighing device. No lubricants needed. But of course, the actuators might be another case.

Unable to get a visual representation of Knife-edge bearings on the internet. I think that sometimes our notions of HighTech becomes elitist and people have a tendency to go for more complex solutions than are necessary or appropriate. This could be a bad thing as it might lead us the wrong way at times.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-13 17:34:02)

Void · 2023-08-13 17:50:59

So, could robots make bricks out of regolith on the Moon?

Well, here is something: https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … 7/4298478/
Sounds like they use a hot thermite process.

3D printing used on this one: https://www.universetoday.com/139810/bu … unar-dust/

https://www.space.com/36943-make-lunar- … -heat.html

So, there are lots of ideas, which is a good thing.

Teala Bots and other robots would be rather well protected from the Moons harsh environment inside of the Roman Arches: This drawing is actually an A-Frame of bricks with a Roman Arch Space inside of it. I have added the suggestion of movable balance beam solar panels to the illustration:

Although hardened robots might work outside at time, I suppose to collect regolith and build new structures.

A chain of these around the equator of the Moon might be interesting. They might project power to spacecraft and the Earth perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-14 09:58:54)

Void · 2023-08-14 09:43:47

Well, what I have suggested here are only options. Certainly, other things could be built as well. The magnitude of long-term habitation of the Moon by humans remains to be discovered.

But I remain interested in robots on the Moon.

And as it happens, this is of interest: https://www.space.com/nasa-cadre-autono … 024-launch
Quote:

Trio of tiny autonomous NASA rovers will launch to the moon next year
By Andrew Jones published 6 days ago
The three spacecraft will be unleashed on the moon with only high-level orders.

Sound like a valuable test.

I tend to be excited about Tesla-Bot for the Moon, but it is currently seeming to be designed for factory work so far. So, some versions of similar things adapted to various levels of "Rustic" for the Moon will be desired as well.

Providing overnight shelter for some of them would still be a good idea. The notion I previously suggested with a stone fulcrum and balance beam solar panels is one option.

https://www.cgaa.org/article/where-is-t … am-balance
Image Quote: th?id=OIP.KGYvehhnAFGsATiX9YhfYAHaDa&w=200&h=91&rs=1&qlt=80&o=6&dpr=1.3&pid=3.1
Quote:

The fulcrum on a triple beam balance is the point at which the beam is balanced. The fulcrum is usually located at the center of the beam, but it can be located anywhere on the beam. The fulcrum is the point at which the force of gravity is equal to the force of the object being weighed.
Cgaa.org
https://www.cgaa.org/article/where-is-t … am-balance
Where Is the Fulcrum on a Triple Beam Balance? - CGAA

Here it is again:

Here is another image:

The Under-Arch can provide a protective buffered environment.

Surfaces 'A' and 'B' can have Anti-Solar Cells or insulation on them.

Surface 'C' can also have Anti-Solar Cells, if it is going to be the drainage path for infrared heat escape from the Stone Fulcrum.

In that case there can be limits on the length North and South of the Stone Fulcrum, as too long drains too slow, and too short drains too fast. You can have staggered walls for various reasons, or curtains that can be opened or closed to regulate thermal conditions.

Making things friendly for robots will be easier than to make them suitable for humans, but both are possible.

And of course, telepresence Earth<>Moon is very much an option.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 09:27:35)

Void · 2023-08-14 12:29:07

Back to asteroids in Carbonnanohose!

From "The Angry Astronaut": https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQvhpT … XzHHzJr7hg

Asteroid Hosiery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWbqHUpa3tw
Quote:

New breakthrough! Don't fear asteroids! Rip them apart and build cities with them!
The Angry Astronaut
116K subscribers

OK, good work AA, but don't forget Mars. Keep everything. Add Asteroids.

In this post I was discussing related things: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 17#p212417

I was talking about the Moon more recently and am not done with it yet, or likely ever.

I think one problem in thinking that a lot of people have is they don't consider layering. Layering works in a cold climate, many people don't normally have to think of it.

In my view the objective should be to modify the asteroid or Phobos/Deimos materials to make a shelter. The primary function is to create a minimum needed gravity simulation, to improve the radiation conditions, to stabilize thermal conditions, and to collect energy.

Inside of such a shelter you could build rotating habitats that can give enough gravity simulation to maintain health and sanitation, and you could also build "Farm Houses" to grow crops.

It is not unlike what I have been seeking on the Moon with the stone fulcrum buildings.

So, a good article by AA, but of course I do not like binary choices in space.

If we have ships that can do Mars, they can do Bennu and the Moon as well. So, very good.

Bennu is an object that was reached and touched: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
Quote:

Water
Predicted beforehand,[49] Dante Lauretta (University of Arizona) then stated that Bennu is water-rich- already detectable while OSIRIS-REx was still technically in approach.[50][51]
Preliminary spectroscopic surveys of the asteroid's surface by OSIRIS-REx confirmed magnetite and the meteorite-asteroid linkage,[52][53][54] dominated by phyllosilicates.[55][56][57] Phyllosilicates, among others, hold water.[58][59][60] Bennu's water spectra were detectable on approach,[53][61] reviewed by outside scientists,[62][40] then confirmed from orbit.[37][63][64][65]
OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 x 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[65]

Carbon:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … on%20Bennu.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abc3522

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … oid-bennu/

Well, I can't see a percentage estimate. However, it is thought that the huge asteroid Ceres is about 20% Carbon in its surface materials.

If the regolith is not to be covered in vegetation, and instead vegetation would be done in "Farm Houses", then the materials could be processed over time to extract things like Carbon and metals and water, and so on.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-14 13:10:04)

Void · 2023-08-15 09:08:04

So, I guess it is a bit nervy for me to modify the wonderful work of others, but as for rubble pile asteroids, from my point of view is while you might go for 1/3 g for the rubble, but I think a minimal centrifugal force might do perfectly well. So, maybe only 1/100th g would do.

With that, you have a radiation protection shell, and that also can assist to moderate the thermal and light conditions in a volume of space surrounded by the "Cylinder" of regolith.

NASA. ESA. SpaceX and many others are working towards space stations and some of those will have artificial gravity.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/06/s … 20launches.

Airbus "Loop": https://www.airbus.com/en/airbus-loop

Add in robotics, and then you need far less humans to process the asteroid materials.

I am just trying to reduce the impediments to move from A to B here. The basic idea is great, and so have other concepts of spin gravity worlds from asteroids and moon materials been. But the often look more at the end results, and not so much at how things get ramped up.

So far, mostly I have seen more the end product, now how to get to the end product.

I might hope that by suggesting early stages, early on, it may be possible to practical export capability from an asteroid sooner.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 09:19:46)

Void · 2023-08-15 09:21:42

It may seem that my recent posts about rubble pile worlds and the Moon, deviate away from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, but I don't think so.

The two moons are thought to be more rubble than big pieces, so an adaptation of the scheme for rubble asteroids may not be that hard.

As for the Pyramid or Fulcrum buildings for the Moon, I think they might work nicely on Mars. Some adaptations might be needed of course.

One favorable thing is that Martian soil might be possible to simply squeeze into brick like materials. For the Moon, I don't think that is an option.

On Mars you would want a good foundation soil that was not going to melt and subside. Then you might make a Roman Arch Tube of real bricks. Then you might just compress Martian soil on top of that to create the Fulcrum Shape:

I am purposely vague as to how energy devices might be associated with such a structure. That is because it is a bit of a "Blank Slate". I can think of many interesting options, and Solar and Nuclear Fission are both genuine Options to consider.

In considering working with ice slabs on Mars, it can be sensible to suppose that if you mined out ice in an area, then that area may be left with a subsurface that would be suitable to build such structure on. And while you were removing overburden from new ice mining, you could use the waste regolith to build these structures in those old, mined areas.

As for greenhouses and green lakes, those also could be associated to these.

Considering the diagrams above, you might have a pressurized greenhouse that projects outward from 'C' in the direction of the Equator. This could allow moderated temperatures in the greenhouse by air circulation perhaps between 'C''s volume and that of the greenhouse.

The Fulcrum face 'E' might be covered in reflective foil, so that more light is rebounded from the Fulcrum into the greenhouse.

To power the night-times, Anti-Solar Cells mounted on the interior surface of 'C' could bleed heat into the greenhouse and produce a useful electric current at the same time. This presumes that the materials of the Fulcrum have been charged with heat previously.

As for solar panels you might have the balance beam method or may deploy them directly to the outer surfaces of the Fulcrum.

Obviously strong cleaning methods will be needed for such solar panels.

So, actually Mars/Phobos/Deimos will allow the practice of engineering rubble worlds, and the use of "Stone/Adobe" Fulcrums.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 10:27:43)

Void · 2023-08-15 10:22:13

OK, some people may not be aware that it is thought that Martian soil may be made into bricks with compression, so I will provide a reference to that. https://www.popsci.com/mars-soil-bricks/ Quote:

Bricks made from fake Martian soil are surprisingly strong
But can they build our future outpost on the red planet?
BY SARAH FECHT | PUBLISHED APR 27, 2017 5:00 PM EDT

So, it is my thinking that if you could make Roman Arches with high quality materials, you can then fill in on top of that, Martian Soil. Perhaps compressing it as you go, packing it down.

During the fill process you may put pipes, and tubing into the fill, to create a heat exchanger. Or you may make chambers where you can have red hot heating elements, if you have electricity to heat the Fulcrum with. Of course, you probably want to consider how to maintain these subsystems over time.

And yes for at least some cases you could involve nuclear, in various ways. But I also like solar, of various types. Thermal or Photoelectric.

For the above diagram suppose a version where you insulate the top of the Fulcrum, areas 'A' and 'B', and you put anti-solar cells on the ceiling of volume 'C'. If heat is carried by some means out of 'C' then the Anti-Solar cells will generate electricity. I know that at best they can maybe give 1/4 the performance of Solar Panels. (So Far).

But in the night and for a while during dust storms the situation can provide heating and electricity.

The temperature of the Fulcrum has not been specified. That is because there could be many of them and they may be built differently for different purposes.

If you attach a greenhouse to 'C' and circulate air between them then the greenhouse becomes a radiator and part of your power generating method.

And as I have mentioned previously the Fulcrum could be a hideout during solar storms, and generally a protected area as per Martian radiation concerns. You might be able to walk from 'C' into the greenhouse, and a radiation monitor may tell you when to retreat to 'C'.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 10:36:32)

Void · 2023-08-15 12:08:50

The use of the Fulcrum Structure may suit other worlds as well. Mercury, Earth, Ceres, Callisto.

For Earth, Mars, Ceres, and Callisto, you could certainly use heliostats.

Various schemes might work for Earth. Higher Latitudes might be favored.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 12:10:59)

Void · 2023-08-15 12:58:19

For local to me, Planet Earth wind is a notion: https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/332

It is interesting, in the East and West less promising wind is used, but near me, they only use much better wind potentials (Minnesota).

I suppose the existing grids can only absorb so much wind power as it is intermittent.

If it were affordable then a Fulcrum structure might be able to get a deal on off peak power.

Such a structure might even be able to host windmills and also solar energy.

Chicago is indeed the windy city.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-15 13:04:35)

Calliban · 2023-08-16 03:10:28

With the fulcrum design, you are relying upon the downward acting force of an overbearing mass of rock or dirt. The net resultant force remains compressive, but the internal pressure forces bend the net force at an angle w.r.t the vertical. You are essentially relying upon static friction between the layers counteracting the horizontal forces imposed by internal pressure. These designs can certainly work, but they depend upon sufficient overburden to generate static friction.

This may be the cheapest way of building pressurised structures on early Mars, because most of the building structural mass is heaped dirt. The thick soil berms are also useful in reducing heat soil and shielding against radiation.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-16 03:15:06)

Void · 2023-08-16 08:44:55

That is a nice description. Yes, you could involve pressurized space, but many cases might not be.

I initially was thinking these for the Moon. I use the idea of a humanoid robot such as Optimus for my vision of it. Of course, you would want to other type of equipment also to work with raw materials and process them into resources.

I recently have wondered about lining the insides of them with Anti-Solar Cells. Those at best might get 1/4 what solar panels can do. But this creates a sort of heat engine without fluids of any kind.

During Lunar nights the sensitive equipment could shelter in these tubes and the temperatures would be moderated, and a small flow of electric power would be available.

We know that the Moon is superior to Mars, in that it will be possible for almost real time communications Earth<>Moon. I know we are supposing to be all about Mars, Hurray!, but a windfall is a windfall. Why reject it?

I typically imagine these oriented so that one face of the "Berm" is towards East and of course the other towards the West. This leaves the two ends pointing North and South each.

There are many ways to charge the berms with heat. Nuclear is a possibility, but also solar. And solar could be Solar Thermal or Solar Electric. For Mars we might want some of each. For the Moon we might want mostly solar. For the Earth, wind and solar, perhaps.

Supposing the Moon, it could be true that in the Lunar Day, power might come from exposed Solar Electric. But also, you might send your robot out to work sites and then use Heliostats at one or both ends to shine light into the volume 'C' to charge the device with heat. Of course, that has real limits as you might damage the Anti-Solar Cells inside if done excessively.

With this method then the Moon's solar and thermal (Cold Universe) energy becomes more useful. With this the situation is clockwork solar.

That cannot be true for Earth or Mars, since they have weather.

The Moon does have solar storms so sensitive equipment will need to be hardened or protected, but I consider that that can be handled.

It sounds like I have turned against Mars, but not at all. I am for accessing whatever is in reach. If the new space industry buildout such as SpaceX are successful, then we will no longer be in a situation where you have to pick one thing.

I am sort of getting excited now for these things for Earth as well. You could pull a lot of tricks like on the Moon. But you also have wind and other intermittent energy sources. That being electric, I guess you would heat the berm structure by some method from the wind. But again, at times you could pump sunlight into one end, using heliostats. Again, not excessively. You may or may not have windows at each end. You might have a greenhouse at one end. So then by some means the 'C' area sheds heat out of the ends, and the Anti-Solar Cells create electric flows, in deep winters and at night.

This might be very good for places in the interior of North America, and some places of Europe, and of course there are other places for it.

https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/332

For Minnesota and similar places, the scheme might be pretty good.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-16 09:12:11)

Void · 2023-08-16 16:27:49

I stumbled on this today. Greenland is the closest we have on Earth of a Martian Ice cap, I think: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

climate wildcard - Greenland melt lakes
YouTube2.2K views1 day agoby Jason Box

So, my feeling is that Korolev Crater, and the two ice caps are the first places where any type of open-air biosphere could be possible. And also, where somewhat mechanically assisted aquiculture might be possible.

So, understanding Greenland would not be without worth.

Certain places at the edges of these ice masses, might be warmed up with nuclear power or local solar or space solar.

He does cover the instability of water ice lakes on top of ice masses. I would note that Mars with ~1/3 the gravity will be less unstable, as the differential force should be proportionally less.

The adding of heat to ice may also cause an increase in clouds in the upper atmosphere, and those may tend to warm the planet as well.

The video is worth a look even for itself as well. It does not hurt to learn.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-16 16:36:01)

Void · 2023-08-16 16:51:58

Hopefully it can be noted that I do try to come up with some ideas for energy, but I don't much care for climate doom porn.

I think it would be highly improbable that the worlds populations would be willing to do what I am about to suggest, but the idea may have its own entertainment value.

It would be to move water away from the Oceans to other basins.

Keep in mind I have seen ideas where people have suggested damming the Mediterranean Sea to generate electricity. This of course would displace the water out into the main oceans.

I see two main possibilities. Caspian Sea, and Great Basin. Environmentalists will not like either of these

But if it protects the seacoasts then humans may say yes. Of course, people displaced in various ways would have to be compensated.

The Caspian Sea notion could generate a lot of energy as hydro methods might be possible.

The Great Basin would soak up energy in massive amounts. But then again if it rains in the interior mountains, then again you may have hydro, and you may also have wave power on the surfaces of the lakes.

As I have said, this is for entertainment more than anything. An alternate universe if you want to consider it in a SciFi manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea
Image Quote:
Quote:

Area around the Caspian Sea. Yellow area indicates the (approximate) drainage area.

Topographic: https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/map-r … spian-Sea/

The water would almost certainly have to come through the Black Sea, and along with the Russians consent from various nations would be needed.

Earthquakes would be probable.

There are a few other much smaller areas in the world where this might be done.

Perhaps I was wrong when I said that a solution for the Great Basin must consume energy.

Well this again: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/ne … rformance/
Image Quote:

It has occurred to me that some value for this is from the natural dry air-cooling vertical will allow.
And light reflected from the ground or perhaps water or perhaps snow.

They are bifacial so each side only gets strong sunlight half of the day, although light reflected from the clouds or ground may fall on the shaded side.

If you really think about it, these are not only shading the ground, but at night they might draw heat out of the ground and that heat would go into relatively dry air, which would carry it into the skies. So, they are heat sinks. Just like fins on an electronic device you want to cool.

Now what if you made such a heat sink out of Aluminum instead of solar panels? If you put one of those between each bifacial panel, then what? Well, it will cool and shade the ground, except that some of the light that bounces off of it will hit the ground, water, or snow and some of that will reflect to the shaded side of a bifacial solar panel. It would depend on how expensive such a device was and how much benefit it might provide. Would the reflector be economical for the energy boost it might give to the solar panels and for the cooling it might give to the ground. All of this could be a disaster in a wind belt, but maybe not Germany or the Great Basin.

So then, if you can reduce the evaporation rate in the Great Basin, it may be that the Ice Age Lakes can be brought back.

https://www.lakeshoresup.com/2015/04/15 … e-ice-age/
Image Quote:

It might be nice to try to get a lot of Aluminum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon
Image Quote:

Robots on the Moon>Aluminum>Can some objects make it though the atmosphere without a heat shield?

So, really if you needed a heat shield you might make an ablative one. So you make very light aircraft on the Moon, and ship them to glide down to the surface.

I sounds too expensive, but if "Made by Robots" with Lunar energy, then maybe not for sure.

Well I sort of warned the reader to consider this sort of on the SciFi end of things.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-16 17:47:55)

Void · 2023-08-17 08:28:27

I am appropriating things from my neighbors again:

A table from RGClark about polar materials indicated by a probe:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p212661

A nice connection to the idea of a Lunar atmosphere, involveing Mars B4 Moon:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 59#p212659
And of course, some blabbing by me about it.

Thank members!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-17 08:32:08)

Void · 2023-08-17 09:07:26

Isaac Arthur as aways has things to offer: https://www.castbox.fm/episode/Comet-Mi … country=us
Quote:

Comet Mining - Science & Futurism with Isaac Arthur
Update: 2023-08-17

The above is audio, but there is a video which a could not fetch.

So, he offers notions about mining comets. I used to not think it was possible, but as often I think now I was wrong.

So, if you can grab good stuff from something, things like Hydrogen and Carbon and maybe if you have a thin atmosphere on the Moon, you might be able to reuse them in rockets many times.

I think that is true for the Earth and will likely be true for Mars.

Even a very thin atmosphere may increase the forces of condensation in the shadowed craters.

Done.

I can imagine using power beams of some type to sweep thin frosts into larger thicker accumulations that could be mined yet again, even though some came from rocket exhaust some time earlier.

It is possible that some water in the Moons poles is from the Apollo missions and also probes from various nations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-17 09:16:02)

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