Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-07-01 13:49:12

I could be in need of corrections, but this is how I will continue with the previous post.

I think that first Oxygen could be extracted from Lunar Regolith, then a separation of magnetic and less magnetic materials. Ideally then two conductive solid materials for Neumann Mass Drivers could be created, along with the Oxygen.

The non-magnetic alloy could be exposed to Oxygen on its way out of the projector and may drag some Oxygen with it.

The Magnetic could be kept so, if it is even possible for atomized Iron and such to be magnetic.

Then the two streams may be directed to a orbiting magnetic bubble to impact it and hopefully cause it to move and to also collect the materials. My hope is that what would result would be solid materials or any kind.

Inside of the bubble could be a solid object for the beams to impact on if that would be helpful/useful.

At any place along the way electron beams might be used to alter the course of the two streams of matter.

And so then I hope that energy machines and spacecraft could be created from this projected material(s).

So, if that would work in some way, that would be very big indeed.

Done.

If this could work then we would have massive amounts of energy for places, including Earth.

It might work for other worlds as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-01 13:56:44)

Void · 2023-07-02 11:01:08

Shooting mass off of the Moon from a Neumann Drive, as a Mass Driver, should not be that hard, once you have the machines, and the methods of ore processing.

So, according to this video, the exhaust speed is .5 to 140,000 miles per second?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVipU98g9s

Some sort of specifications mentioned:
It is a sort of a cross between an arc welder and a plasma coater. (Very interesting).

Query, Plasma Coater: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Plasma+Co … e778dc5d23

Exhaust speed .5 km to 140 km.

Lunar Escape Velocity: https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/f … nfact.html
Quote:

Escape velocity (km/s) 2.38

So, to me that looks very good. Spray from multiple Neumann Mass Drivers, can deploy using the low end of the range, even the bottom of the range perhaps. So, it seems very likely that the spray could hit an orbiting object. However, a question of focus will matter. If we can use charge and magnetism to help, we may cause a favorable result I suspect.

We can use such exhaust to do various "Vectors" of thrust as a sub-orbital exhaust output should be ballistic, and you could fire the either prograde or retrograde. If the orbiting target can include a plasma bubble then that target can be both large and also have a magnetic focus, I hope.

So, to imagine it, if the magnetic bubble were like balloon, and you and your friends had garden hoses, you would push up on the balloon in multiple directions, and if the hose output falls downward from an apex of a ballistic path, you could push downward in various directions.

Plasma bubbles will respond to the solar wind however, so your balloons will blow in the wind, so you may need to use your hose outputs to keep the balloons from being dominated by the solar wind.

If your magnetic bubbles have a throttle on them to vary the size of the field, you may have some assistance from the solar wind to manipulate the results, along with the matter streams from the Neumann Drive, Mass Drivers.

And of course ~1/2 of the Moon is in the dark, so that if you do not transmit power around and about you would have blackouts on one side of the Moon. I am tempted to say use conductors on the ground, but it looks to me like microwave transmissions can deliver power to the dark side.

I am tempted to think of an equatorial installation(s), but there are other options.

As I have said the major part of the labor force on the Moon is likely to be robots and machines. But if this works well, there would be plenty of Neumann propellants to go get organic chemicals from other parts of the solar system, so there could eventually be a large human population on and around the Moon.

Someone pull my "Kite" down for me if I am delusional, Please!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-02 11:27:01)

Void · 2023-07-02 20:53:44

So, I suppose we could consider ion propulsion to be matter transmission. And then what else we want is matter receivers. We do, apparently have matter transmitters, and I think it is very likely that matter receivers are very possible as well. But it would be early days to know the best methods of transmitting and receiving.

The ability to transmit matter from objects like the Moon is going to be very good, provided that the transmitted matter can be received efficiently enough.

We might think to use atom beams created by Neumann Mass Drivers could drive magnetic bubbles and do so with high acceleration. However, as I see it we will want to sail cargo to higher sun orbits using magnetic solar wind drive, and then use the cargo to bring things to lower sun orbits using on-board Neumann Drives.

I am afraid I am going to have to evolve and become a Mars Heretic. While exploring and populating Mars can still be an objective, a very big notion might be to get Metane, Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen from Mars for use on the Moon and in so called CIS Lunar Space.

Calliban has said that he thinks that a mass driver could be used on Mars to launch loads. But a specialized starship tanker could bring goods up to orbit to export to the Moon. And also to use in Martian orbit.

You can stop the deniers in their tracks when they say Mars is worse than Antarctica, by simply pointing out that vast space stations can be perfectly warm in Mars orbits using mirrors that are very light weight.

And once the Moon is set up for this Mercury may also be a place to project matter transmitters on.

Such matter could be shunted out to icy worlds far out, using nuclear powered magnetic solar wind propulsions.

So, that's a lot.

To be honest if I lived in the Martian hill sphere, I would like to be able to visit the surface and even explore work on it, but I would love to be in a warm sunny place in orbit where the planet could pass under my vision. I would like that to be my primary residence.

And part of my work in orbit could be participation in the work that the surface robots might be doing.

I see that is a much higher vision than death marches for survival on the surface.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-02 21:06:35)

Void · 2023-07-03 08:36:52

This from "The Angry Astronaut", could be helpful: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

NASA and SpaceX plan to build a $3.7 Trillion Lunar Economy! Here's how.
YouTube18.8K views1 month ago

The immediate resort to fantastic technology makes me comfortable. But then I will begin to draw new things into the platform described by the above video.

It is indicated in the video that sourcing Oxygen from the Moon to orbital space for Earth/Moon is favored above lifting it from Earth.

I will add in, that if you are going to extract that Oxygen, you might as well make propellants for a Neumann Drive. I have to push the notion of a non-landing starship, one that would orbit the Earth at some times and then the Moon at some times. Such ships could use chemical propulsion methods, and Neumann Drive, and just maybe even mass driver propulsions. Such a ship may have a suitable heat shield, and, I think should have nose engines which could burn boil off gasses, if it also used propellants as a coolant for air braking to Earth orbits. A primary objective would be a "Best" heat shield method, which would minimize cost and maintenance, and be as reliable as is possible.

And then I would hope to see an attempt to project matter into Lunar orbits using the Neumann devices. If receivers can be made to work, then you don't even have to lift the solid propellants from the Moon using chemical rockets. If you could bind Oxygen to the output of the Neumann mass projectors, then you might get Oxygen to Lunar orbit in a similar fashion.

If you could make some sort of magnetic bubbles, you might even try to catch the output of some kind of Mass Driver into those, but that again is another level up and may not be usefully attainable.

Anyway, the Moon is looking to be a very big thing after all.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-03 08:53:56)

Void · 2023-07-03 10:37:13

Hay now, what about grass?

Cellulose in mass?

So, now if you have ships with magnetic Bubbles drifting in the solar wind, to Mars and Ceres and even Callisto, then can you grow grass? Inside protected machines of course.

But then with the Neumann Drive, can you bring that Hay back to Earth orbit, and even drop it to the Moon?

And of course, we know that Venus is a huge tank of the makings for more grass, maybe you want to bring in more Hydrogen.

A way to make a solid substance in part from Oxygen, that is somewhat tolerable to human bodies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-cellu … on-4777807
Quote:

Cellulose [(C6H10O5)n] is an organic compound and the most abundant biopolymer on Earth. It is a complex carbohydrate or polysaccharide consisting of hundreds to thousands of glucose molecules, linked together to form a chain. While animals don't produce cellulose, it is made by plants, algae, and some bacteria and other microorganisms. Cellulose is the main structural molecule in the cell walls of plants and algae.

Now, I think this could do some interesting things in space. A caution is that if released I could be an impactor problem in some locations. But you might be able to clean up in certain circumstances using a puff of materials from a dust or Oxygen mass driver or a Neumann Drive.

The notion I do have for the Moon is to make a fluffy cushion for Lithobraking. You might drop hay onto hay on the surface in a very cold crater. You could possibly puff up the hay cushion with a gas of Oxygen or water vapors. In the case of Oxygen you risk an explosion or fire, but even so the output of such may well to a large extent stay in the cold crater, not so much the Oxygen but other things. The Moon has endless Oxygen.

Greenhouses that grow hay might be rather low pressure and have a minimum of spin gravity and radiation protection.
You might even breed an extreme form(s) of grass that can grow in very low pressure, but even at 100 millibars, the needed space structure might be relatively undemanding.

So, then some questions come, how much speed can hay impact the Moon at and still be of some useful result?

Probably you want a "Drop Ship" to slow it down quite a bit, but hay on the surface of the Moon as a shock absorber may help. You might control the temperature of the cushion with microwaves as in the cold of the shadowed craters the hay might become very brittle. But a puffy cushion fluffed up with an output gas at the right temperature might work out OK.

Something to look at.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-03 10:55:00)

Void · 2023-07-03 15:13:53

I have thought more about it and it seems a shame to have grassy fields that humans cannot be in or fly above.

Maybe 333 mb Oxygen and some fractional g force?

If it is desired, make as many of these as is worth the trouble. Using the Neumann Drive to bring large canisters of water from the outer asteroid belt and beyond.

Venus to supply atmosphere.

That looks very good to me.

Done.

Solar power from space for the Earth? Sure, why not? Much and more of it!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-03 15:17:46)

Void · 2023-07-03 17:55:56

Just for a reference I might like to have a look at what we think the Proxima Centauri System may be like and how such a scheme of moving materials around might work for other star systems. Generally, we think of Terraforming a planet, but this would be different, we would simply use planets and asteroids as resources, provided it did not harm alien life.

Proxima Centauri System?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri

https://www.universetoday.com/137783/pr … r%20system.

According to a recent study by an international team of astronomers, Proxima Centauri is also home to a belt of cold dust and debris that is similar to the Main Asteroid Belt and Kuiper Belt in our Solar System. The existence of this dusty belt could indicate the presence of more planets in this star system.

Image Quote:

It seems likely that planets 'b' and 'd' will have at least portions that are exposed rock, and perhaps no atmosphere. In a contradiction of previous desires, to me this could indicate that materials for Neumann Thrusters should be available.

And then the dust belts are cold, so we might hope that there are ices to be had. It is possible that the two inner planets will have ice patches in their colder reaches, but that is not known.

Another twist on desires if if the system did not have an analog of Venus.

---------------------

In our system various methods to go get giant tanks of water and bring them to Venus could provide endless habitation potential for humans.

A different way of looking at things. If it becomes possible to travel between stars, then perhaps we should be grateful that higher/dangerous life forms may be rare. That then leaves so many dead star systems that we might bring to life.

But for now, we might have just one, maybe.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-03 18:11:45)

Void · 2023-07-04 08:13:21

Questions about the flows of Mass and Energy. I think it is premature to set down strong rules about what is in the set of "Best Practices" that we could discover.

But what seems obvious to me now, is that we might have much in the way of potential in the solar system that Earth resides in. We can expect that the solar wind might be used to drag containers out to places where they might be filled with things wanted. Primarily, I think that will be water and/or Hydrogen.

Relatively easy to procure rocky materials to make these canisters out of are Luna, Inner Asteroids, including a lot of NEO's, and Mercury, but there are other places as well. Ceres and icy outer asteroids will have it, Callisto seems to have it. The time latency for the reach of the human mind and it's amplifying machines is smallest at this time for Luna. But later on, that will not matter as much as humans and their machines will spread around the solar system.

So, I suppose if you made a canister, and put just a little organic chemistry into it, it could support cyanobacteria or the equivalent. It might be low pressure, low gravity, and just enough in harmony with life to support a "Slime" ecosystem. Being relatively light weight, it might be powered by both solar and nuclear energy and be caused to drift outward in the solar system sailing on the solar wind. Then to sail to a object which could fill it with water, and metal propellants. So, then it is an ocean world, and using energy, a Neumann Drive may send it back inward to the solar system.

Isaac Arthur has indicated that much of the Asteroid belt has enough sunlight to support some kind of Earth plants. But the use of Mirrors in orbit, seem like they would be easy. So inward for a time might be the Earth/Moon, but over time, it might even be considered to be further out than we now think.

At a location to be built up to a larger size, the ocean canister could then spread its water out to create a much larger photo-active biology. Perhaps grasslands and even forests.

It is tempting to think to resort to solar panels for energy, but bio-canisters, may have a radiator system which would be used to cool them, and which would assist in the generation electricity by rejecting heat to the universe. This would not be a mandate, just an option.

A grassland ecosystem could generate Oxygen and Hydrocarbons for rocket propulsions. It may be that for some situations such propulsion may still be wanted.

A conservation of matter may be desired. I have already suggested dropping hay into the shadowed craters, but others might say why not space elevators? Well, why not? I am not particularly in charge of much of anything. Do as you may like in that regard, if you can. I have simply suggested an interesting and unexpected option.

At any rate, on the Moon such Hay might be processed into rocket fuels and other things that can come from organic chemistry. Processing Lunar Rock will yield solid products such as Neumann Drive propellants, and also an excess of Oxygen.

A drop method for Hay or similar could involve the use of a rotovator, to reduce drop energy.

World's gravitational fields and natural and induced magnetic fields for worlds, could assist in conserving valuable matter. Good practices may be used to reduce the leak rate of orbital habitats, but they will leak over time. So, Earth, and the other planets might be used for such a purpose. So, the bulk of space habitats might end up inside the hill sphere of a planet. Venus might be used in that manner. A magnetic field that allows the solar wind in but does not favor the loss of atmosphere to the void, might be preferred. And so then an enormous amount of space habitats in orbit of it could be built.

And I think we might do something like this for Mars before doing it for Venus.

The hill sphere of Mars is likely much larger than the size of Mars itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Image Quote:
Quote:

Comparison of the Hill spheres and Roche limits of the Sun-Earth-Moon system (not to scale) with shaded regions denoting stable orbits of satellites of each body

So, then the hill spheres for Mars and Venus will be smaller and not as complicated with a large Moon.

But, I think that by adding appropriate magnetic fields these hill spheres may accommodate artificial biological and energy devices which will leak substances, but some chance of capturing the leaks to the parent body of the hill sphere may be implemented.

But where do the losses go? What about the materials from a Neumann Drive? Much may be carried out to the edge of the Heliosphere, where I suppose some may condense onto existing objects. Some may escape into interstellar space as well, I suppose.

Perhaps the interstellar medium also allows the continuing condensation of materials onto Oort cloud objects. At a very low rate, I presume. So, if you can use the energy of the sun and nuclear energy of any kind you can achieve, then you might continue to "Fetch" materials from the outer solar system to the inner solar system.

I see the sun's heliosphere as being a bit like an atmosphere with weather and condensation.

But, I will admit, you should not have to go that far out to get stuff to "Fetch" in.

But that is just me and what I currently think.

We will see what the human race can do, if we can see it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-04 09:01:30)

Void · 2023-07-04 11:18:12

Just filling in some time.

I think it is typically good to update thinking. I have changed my mind about using the Moon's polar resources. I think they could be used to accelerate human space development.

My reason for this is the Hay Drop notion. I feel that some NEO's will have replacement substances, and that after all it should be possible to move onto getting replacement materials from Mars, using Phobos and Deimos as Neumann propellants.

And from there to extend to the Asteroid belt for replacements, and so on.

So, really I have large notions also of lots of "Land" orbiting Mars as well. But using the Neumann Drive, and Phobos and Deimos and also NEO's, these could also be moved to the Earth/Moon and even Venus.

What would be done with Mars itself would evolve, based on the future technologies, and the inclinations of people, I suppose.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-04 11:28:52)

Void · 2023-07-04 14:17:20

As for the idea of Pyrolysis as a source of fuels, and Photosynthesis as a source of Oxygen and biomass for Pyrolysis.

I think that people living in green areas of the Earth, might think that solar energy was a favor to them, not just for mid-latitude deserts.
That is if you can store intermittent energy in hot bricks, now you have the option to conduct pyrolysis.

The elevation of CO2 in the air has caused the greening of the Earth: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … ning-earth Quote:

From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

This may also apply to the UK for instance and places like it. If you have an intermittent source of energy, then you can heat up bricks, and if you have stored biomass, you may then process biomass on demand to service time local needs.

You may generate a burnable gas, and perhaps Carbon.

Hydrocarbon Fuel Cells might be a good path:
https://www.mtu.edu/news/2023/04/an-ene … -cell.html

Even Carbon Fuel Cells: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_carbon_fuel_cell

So, as time goes by, it is also claimed that meat will come from fermentation, not animals.

If it comes from yeast of course the yeast needs a food source. This is one possible path: https://www.wired.com/story/the-impossi … rown%20soy.

The greens want you to eat bugs so don't get too squeamish.

So wind power may heat bricks to store it's excess, and the heat from the bricks might do pyrolysis on grass, and produce a biogas and Carbon. Fuel cells may process these relatively efficiently.

Keep in mind that if you do not cycle biocarbon though this path, then grass is all eaten by something eventually, and so serves to support the metabolisms of those somethings that eat it. The Carbon returns to the atmosphere either way.

Some of these products are not too hard to store in bulk, so this helps with the intermittency problems.

----------------------------------

Now as for in space environments:

We might consider a type of space habitat to generate propellants for rockets. My notion is grasslands. Pressure 250 to 333 millibars, almost all Oxygen, a bit of CO2. Spin gravity, minimal, just enough to keep the sod down on the "Ground".

Some grasses may be minimal fuss. But of course fertilizer will be needed. Such a habitat will accumulate heat, and that heat might be directed to a cooling section, and the notion is to generate electricity with a heat engine. Oxygen will be generated, along with biomass.

It might actually be fun to be inside such "Grasslands", as you could likely "Fly".

So then, pyrolysis to generate Hydrocarbon fuels.

Such facilities may also provide some radiation shielding for human occupied habitats as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-04 14:50:29)

Void · 2023-07-05 07:37:34

Thief, Plagiarism, Pirate

But I like this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p211678 Posts: #135, #136, #137, as of today.

Coffee..............

So, I think that I have come a little further with the idea of a "Pop-top" Starship.

"Guess Who" already has one similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Shepard
Image Quote:

Starting with Lunar Starship, (But who knows maybe a revised New Glen somehow sent to orbit), you land the thing and have a machine to unload the cargo fairings, and then even to pull the Fairings/Capsule off of the propulsion section. Leave the Fairings/Capsule on the Moon as prescribable space. If you really want to be weird you could even carry humans in spacesuits to orbit after, should that be necessary.

But you might make it even better, if the "Capsule" has its own landing means, it may separate and land on its own. Dragon thrusters?

If you are not going to refill Oxygen or fuel on the Moons surface, then you may even choose not to land the propulsion system. The Capsule just pops off at the end of the landing process and the Capsule lands, and the propulsion system simply goes back to orbit.

This makes sense to me for Starships that do not enter the Earth's atmosphere.

However, maybe if you had a "Pop-Top" for that, then it could bring the capsules up to orbit for the Lunar Starships to fetch, or to be used in LEO.

But then in that case you have to find a way to bring a cylinder engine section down through the atmosphere. I would not say it would be impossible, just needs some special heat shielding methods, I guess.

And as I have said before, the "Pop-Top" method allows the fairings to have a larger diameter than the "Propulsion Cylinder"

Good for off color jokes as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-05 07:58:42)

Void · 2023-07-05 09:10:35

So, then if we fetch water from the Moon, then Mars, then Ceres and its siblings of likeliness, and then perhaps Callisto and more, what weird things might we do with Venus and Mercury? If you have simple robots that are not so much people, but still machines, and if you have energy from a giant nuclear reactor (Sun), then can you build giant toroidal orbiting shells, that do shade?

You simply suck the atmosphere of Venus into them, you move some of them to Mercury. Then both Venus and Mercury can be in the cold shadows, perhaps very habitable.

Done.

Void · 2023-07-05 10:37:43

I have been thinking about the previous post just a little more. I think that a sequence of torus(s), smaller near the planet and larger each time going further out into the hill sphere of a planet, even to the edge of the hill sphere is an interesting thing to contemplate.

The final one at the edge of the hill sphere being able to completely eclipse the planet from the suns radiation, if that were desired, but I suppose it might be desired to allow some light though by some method.

The water likely coming from the outer solar system starting at Ceres, the Carbon coming from Venus, other materials coming from Mercury perhaps.

Now then we have to think how to keep humans from creating a giant Kestler syndrome from this?

The gluttony urge, the worship of large size. This is a problem. This keeps breeding the human race back to the stone age, I am afraid.

It is natural to tilt towards such urges, as the large typically consume the small. Large fish eat smaller fish, larger swarms eat smaller creature, as in wolf pack.

However, in space large size means large inertia. That is OK, if you are stationary.

But the propensity for vandalism and terrorism is logical according to nature. We need to master such a nature, or simply go back to the stone age. Can we be above it? That will be the test.

Gong for the breeding or more alpha males and the kind of females who adore them is the path back to the stone age, I believe.

That does not indicate that I prefer weaklings either though.

If there is such a thing, perhaps sigma's???

https://designepiclife.com/sigma-male/

My jury is still out. I am not sure that they exist.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-05 10:48:53)

Void · 2023-07-05 12:05:18

I guess I should be fair. I was told by someone that a big body allows a big brain, and so then perhaps a big mind. That is possible but not proven. There is probably an optimal curve for it.

The NAZI were stupid as the presumed that by culling the edges of the bell curve they could get a superman. Well, maybe big men suited to killing other people. That could be useful for the military, but not always.

To cull your oddballs could actually be mercy for the oddballs, but it stagnates and reduces your gene pool.

But the above is sort of the continuation of the previous post, an attempt to give a bit of balance to the size argument. I will let it rest for now. Except bigger body, harder to pump the blood to the brain against gravity.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-05 12:07:15)

Void · 2023-07-05 12:10:23

I have been going on about fetching water from the outer solar system to the terrestrials and our Moon. I have mentioned nuclear power for the ships but let's consider laser power. This has been considered for interstellar travel and to put probes out far enough to make the sun a part of a telescope, I believe.

But a laser powered ship, sailing out with the solar wind as well, then gathering mass, and coming back with it to the inner solar system.

This seems rather possible to me.

Done

Void · 2023-07-05 12:39:53

Lets say you do a sort of metamorphosis as you go sort of thing.

You start in the solar system > Mars or > and gather water into a canister, and also perhaps Neumann Drive propellants. Using laser power from the inner solar system you power to a orbit grazing Mars, and dump off your Oxygen from the water. At that point you have to do active cooling of Liquid Hydrogen, but not impossible. Your load lightened you might go to Venus where you fill your big can with atmosphere from Venus and so have water and Carbon and Oxygen and Nitrogen.

And of course for the Moon, stuff can be dropped off. In fact if you grow hay in the giant hayfields of Venus, you can float the hay in cans to the Moon, using the solar wind.

An ideal atmosphere for Mars could be 1/4 to 1/3 that of Earth at sea level. Almost all of Oxygen. The planet will still have a tendency to be rather cold, but that is actually a good thing.

Done.

Void · 2023-07-06 09:47:00

Isaac Arthur has this to offer today: "Isaac Arthur, Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining"

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _refining/

Things I found more prominent are rockets from Moon materials, the idea of starting with Moon water and how it will be rather easy to bring more water in from other worlds later, and also Mass Drivers.

Also he gives some energy calculations to process other materials.

A pretty good video.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 09:49:57)

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-06 10:32:03

For Void re 1191

Your post #1191 has some interesting ideas. In many respects, your writings remind me of "world building" exercises for science fiction writers.

Just FYI ....

Per Google:

What oxygen concentration is a fire hazard?
Even a small increase in the oxygen level in the air to 24 % can create a fire hazard. In an oxygen-enriched environment, materials become easier to ignite and fires will burn hotter and more fiercely than in normal air.
Reducing the risk of oxygen-related fires and explosions in hospitals ...
nih.gov
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
Search for: What oxygen concentration is a fire hazard?
Is 10% oxygen needed to support flaming combustion?
Is 30% oxygen flammable?

(th)

Void · 2023-07-06 10:42:24

Yes, that is true, I do go places where some other people might fear their reputations could be injured. But I don't depend on reputation to do what I do, except to remain civil enough to be tolerated.

Thanks for the post (th), very happy to have it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts go back to grass. I believe that Bamboo has been discussed, and has considerable promise.

What about Sugar Cane? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarcane
Quote:

Sugarcane or sugar cane is a species of (often hybrid) tall, perennial grass (in the genus Saccharum, tribe Andropogoneae) that is used for sugar production. The plants are 2–6 m (6–20 ft) tall with stout, jointed, fibrous stalks that are rich in sucrose,[1] which accumulates in the stalk internodes. Sugarcanes belong to the grass family, Poaceae, an economically important flowering plant family that includes maize, wheat, rice, and sorghum, and many forage crops. It is native to the warm temperate and tropical regions of India, Southeast Asia, and New Guinea. Grown in tropical and subtropical regions, sugarcane is the world's largest crop by production quantity, totaling 1.9 billion tonnes in 2020, with Brazil accounting for 40% of the world total. Sugarcane accounts for 79% of sugar produced globally (most of the rest is made from sugar beets). About 70% of the sugar produced comes from Saccharum officinarum and its hybrids.[2] All sugarcane species can interbreed, and the major commercial cultivars are complex hybrids.[3]

The historical cruelty associated with this product would not be emulated in space, we for sure hope.

But it will be noted, that with mirrors the idea of growing Sugar Cane in orbits of Earth/Moon and Mars, is not really out of the question.

The products that can come from it on Earth might come from it in space. And it may be possible to build structure from the cellulose of the plant itself as well.

Obviously you could brew rocket Fuel using fermentation, and the growth of the plant would yield Oxygen.

As a grass, I anticipate that it could be dumped out of a "Drop Ship" onto the Moon, the nature of the surviving substances, would of course depend on the conditions of the impact and the nature of the environment it was dropped into.

I anticipate trying to use such Sugar Cane farms as partial shielding for human habitats.

I recall that Sugar Cane has razor sharp portions to it so to make it more friendly I would hope that that aspect could be gotten rid of.

Got to go.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 10:49:33)

Void · 2023-07-06 13:46:37

Continuing with the last post, I anticipate that by the time water and CO2 have been overused from the Moon, it might be that Mars could become a source or some asteroid.

In the case of Mars, I would suppose that tanker starships or the equivalent could be lifting excess Methane from Mars to Mars orbit, and that could be reacted with regolith from Phobos and Deimos, using solar heat. The result might be regolith reduced of Oxygen, and water and CO2. The a reprocess for the water and CO2 could be to send them to a farm, where Oxygen and Biomass could be produced. Then the option to again react the biomass with regolith using solar heat, would exist.

I suggest Sugar Cane as a possible crop, as sugar can be used to ferment rocket fuels, and also synthetic meat and other foods, using fermentation and genetic splicing.

Plant biomass may be very storable at suitable temperatures inside of some containers, so that it could be transported to the Earth/Moon. I am thinking the use of Neumann Drive technology might do for that.

Pause for Coffee..............

Evidence for the possibility of enhancing lithobraking on the Moon is hard to come by. Scientists do what they do, and I am grateful for that, but thinkers have not yet done a lot of practical thinking on Lithobraking, that I am aware of. Technically any machine landing on the Moon likely uses shock absorption for a tiny part of the dissipation of differential velocity.

What I have gotten is that the amount of resultant dust for the Moon is low, relative to what is calculated to need to exist. The explanation is that the Moon is "Fluffy", (So has shock absorbing qualities).

OK, China has provided something useful
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-021-01530-w
Quote:

Impact remnants rich in carbonaceous chondrites detected on the Moon by the Chang’e-4 rover
Abstract
The Moon has experienced an intense bombardment history since its formation1. Fragments of the impactor can remain on the lunar surface2,3,4 and can provide evidence of the evolution of the impactor composition and impact population in the Earth–Moon system3,4,5. However, the retained impactor fragments previously identified in the Apollo samples have been well mixed into bulk lunar regolith due to the subsequent impact gardening, and their properties cannot be easily isolated3,6,7. Here we report observations of a two-metre-sized crater that formed less than one million years ago obtained by the Yutu-2 rover of Chang’e-4. Hyperspectral images in the visible and near-infrared range (0.45–0.945 μm) with a spatial resolution less than 1 mm per pixel highlight the presence of glassy material with high concentration (47%) of carbonaceous chondrites. We identify this material as remnants of the original impactor that was not entirely vaporized by the impact. Although carbonaceous chondrite fragments have been found in Apollo samples8,9, no carbonaceous chondrite remnant had been directly observed on the lunar surface by remote sensing exploration. We suggest that carbonaceous chondrite-like bodies may still provide one of the sources of water to the present Moon.

You may think I have a deep bias against Roman derived cultural assets on this planet, but that is not true. I simply like things to be in balance. America was born of a collision between worlds, and even Europe's escape from the darkness was in part a result of that historical action. I don't enjoy the feeling of being dragged back into the dark ages. So, even if I am equally uncomfortable to pure Chinese culture, as it is not either the totality of my comfort zone, I am very capable of appreciating their accomplishments, and I am grateful for them.

So, if we are to consider lithobraking of organic materials, can we make them "fluffy" enough to be worthwhile per results? So to some degree, it is to prepare the receiver, and also prepare the impactor. The impactor can be prepared by limiting the impact speed and directing the impact with a "Drop Device".

A "drop device" might be a ship, with a tether and small thrusters also on the bottom end of the tether where the load will be dropped from.

The receiver might be made "Fluffier" by constructing with certain materials and also using gas discharges and even explosions to fluidize the receiver.

A receiver could be a pile of fine regolith which will fluidize simply by the impact. Or you might make a landslide receiver. Pour fine materials on a slope and have the impactor slide down that. If you flow a gas into these, they may become even more fluid.

If you explode a charge under these this may also fluidize the receivers.

I have previously suggested fluffy hay piles kept at an optimal temperature, whatever that might be.

As for the impactor, if it is composed of biomass like hay, bamboo, Sugarcane, or other things, it might be made into a shock absorbing shape and might also be set to an optimal temperature, whatever that might be.

So, the objective is to gather useful materials, without having to completely transport them with a ship landing on the surface.

Conversion of biomass to gasses or otherwise excessively scattering the impact result, would not be a total loss, at least not in a shadowed crater where the gasses may condense in part, but they may be dispersed more than is wanted. But even a result of Carbon leftovers would be useful.

But if you send a "Biomass Impactor" into a hill of fluffy regolith, it may get imbedded in the materials and much of the impact energy would be dispersed by scattering the regolith. (Something like doing a break on a pool table using the cue ball to scatter the other balls).

While a shadowed crater could be a receiver location, other places might do, especially before sunup on the dark side of the Moon when it should be rather cold.

So, then I am looking into using Mars as a possible source of biomass to lithobraking, and also perhaps asteroids. Maybe eventually even Callisto and other places.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 14:29:08)

Void · 2023-07-06 19:10:23

So, beginning at Mars, I think organic chemicals become more available.

It may be that some organic chemicals can come from Phobos and Deimos, but for now, I will suppose that the bulk of Carbon and Hydrogen will come from Mars proper. If Phobos and Deimos have some Carbon and Hydrogen, then that will simply be a bonus.

So, by now I like to be conservative about assumptions about what the moons of Mars may provide. Still there is some hope of organic chemicals. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … rtian-past
Quote:

Many of these charged particles, or ions, of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and argon, have been escaping Mars for billions of years as the planet has been shedding its atmosphere. Some ions, scientists predict, have been smashing into the surface of Phobos and could be preserved in its uppermost layer, according to a paper published on Feb. 1 in the journal Nature Geoscience.

As I have pointed out, it is not essential that organic chemicals, (Other than Oxygen) come from the Martian moons, but it would be nice.

Farms in orbit of Mars could be very useful, as they would be intermediate between the orbital energy levels of the Earth/Moon and that of the surface of Mars.

I have mentioned Hay, Sugar Cane, and Bamboo as possible crops to export to the Moon and also Earth orbits.

I have mentioned that if you brought extra Methane up from Mars, reacting it with the regolith of Phobos and Deimos would perhaps produce water and CO2, which you could inject into these farms. The result would be an Oxygen supply and also sources of organic building materials and fuels.

Farms such as that could also shield humans from radiation. Of course regolith from Phobos an Deimos would be good for that as well. Perhaps the leftovers after you reduced the Oxygen out of it and also scavenged metals out of it.

In a situation where Humans arrived to Mars orbit, these could be of significant value. In my mind the methods for having traveled will likely be by solar wind sailing and Neumann Drive. To go down to the Martian surface might be to ride in a passenger compartment of a sort of Starship shuttle. That ship may well get it's landing propellants in orbit from the mentioned farms, at least the Oxygen which is the larger part of the mass of the propellants.

The farms would likely have minimum spin gravity, and have windows to let light in, perhaps reflected from mirrors. I anticipate that the outside of these farms might be covered in anti-solar cells. A very simple power source. The interior being quite warm, the exterior being exposed to the universe and the heat being allowed to radiate away and so then to generate useful electricity, even when the device was in shadow.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 19:32:51)

Void · 2023-07-06 20:12:23

So, I would like to speculate on the leastest things we might do to get the bestest results. If the results are no sufficient then you would have to try to do more.

So, for these orbital farms, for the crops a low synthetic gravity may be all that is needed. Presuming the cost of a 1/4 to 1/3 bar atmosphere were paid to achieve that result, then the needed g force may only be that which effectively would hold the soil to the perimeter of a synthetic gravity machine.

For humans, I think sanitary gravity is the next level up. If your waste materials, wastewater will obey gravity, then you may have sufficient means to enhance sanitary living conditions.

The next level up might be Lunar Gravity which we will likely get familiar with working in long term.

A value of 1/4 g is supposed to allow humans to have a sense of up/down. Mabe a bit less might work for that.

I am inclined to think in terms of a base gravity which may be sanitary, and then rotating rings that add to it for some locations for humans.

To get to 1 g for instance if you had the equivalent of Hyperloop spinning in an evacuated tube, that could be space where humans might work out to maintain fitness. Rather than being a separate rotating torus wheel thing of science fiction, perhaps it would start and stop periodically to allow people into it and off of it.

Something which would be in-between the sanitation gravity and the Hyperloop 1 g gravity might be a ring that simulates Martian Gravity.

It may be inside of a air filled tube not a vacuum, but the surfaces will be streamlined so as to minimize drag and heating. A ring spinning inside of a ring. At least that might be wanted, I cannot specify if it is practical. This ring also might start and stop periodically.

As for the air pressure in the rings habitat parts, maybe that could be a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix at a higher pressure, if that is needed.

Anyway, I am hoping that this might be sufficient to maintain adult health in a long term situation.

If not then more will be needed.

But Vast Space may begin to tell us something about spin gravity and human health in the next 10 years.

Another concern for these farms could be fire. So, that needs addressing.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 20:26:20)

Void · 2023-07-06 21:13:08

Some members might like this video:

Space Station:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Di … ORM=WRVORC

Very interesting to me is the idea of a hub which can dock 4 Starships at a time, and also accommodate capsules, and Dream Chaser.

I think that this is in the family of tings that don't depend as much on orbital refilling, so it will have merit to also help justify the various notions.

I also wonder if something like this may be sensible for missions to Mars. Of course I have a habit of liking Ballistic Capture. But if you add in electric rocket propulsion you might also just spiral out. But that would be a very big electrical power plant needed for it. I imagine I am jumping ahead too far, better see what really will happen.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-06 21:17:31)

Void · 2023-07-07 04:14:20

The idea of exporting bioproducts to the Moon using tricks to cause the materials to remain useful, or transition to another type of useful material appeals to me.

The speed of impact needs to be sufficiently low to allow for the above.

Terminal velocity on the Moon would be limited by acceleration. Unlike for Earth a air drag will not determine it. Rather it will be limited by the shortening of time for acceleration. The faster a thing accelerates, the sooner it will stop accelerating as it will have reached the surface of impact sooner and a higher acceleration.

An amusing possibility would be to shoot bamboo out of a mass driver barrel in a direction opposite to the orbit of the ship having the mass driver on it. But of course there are limits to the utility of it, and the results could be variable.

A tether might drop organic materials from its lower end. That lower end might have an energy of motion relative to the Moon, that is sub orbital.

In most cases I would expect the bamboo to be shredded at least. And that does not bother me. Energy is absorbed in the shredding.

A curious question is, is it better to make a giant wooden/grass woven bullet and shoot it into a pile of regolith, or to sprinkle blades of grass?

I regard woody/grassy materials comprised in part of cellulose, as being highly storable and transportable in space. A limited amount of protection could help to keep them in a condition desired, I suspect. This would not be as hard as to transport gasses and liquids.

https://byjus.com/chemistry/cellulose/
Quote:

What is Cellulose?
Cellulose is the most abundant organic compound on earth with a chemical formula (C6H10O5)n.
Cellulose is a complex carbohydrate consisting of oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen. It is chiral, tasteless and has no odour. A French chemist by name Anselme Payen was the first to discover cellulose in the year 1838. This organic compound is water-soluble and biodegradable.
In the year 1890, it was used to produce the first thermoplastic called celluloid. The amount of cellulose present in cotton is 90%. The amount of cellulose present in the wood is 40-45% and dried hemp is 57% respectively.

OK, grasses are not 100% celluloid, and I guess I don't care. Whatever the other plant tissues are they may do as well.

Another amusing trick for crashing plant tissues onto the Moon would be to wet them down and then freeze them in a canister, then to drop them into a cold crater. A phase change from ice to vapor would help the plant tissues to survive. The water ultimately may be retained to a large extent in the crater, I might hope.

Or very dry grasses of various temperatures could be tried.

We commonly think that efforts like this will cost incredible amounts, keep in mind that there will be robot labor and also Neumann Drive propulsions, and solar energy. As long as you are willing to be patient lower speeds can be used, which reduces the amount of dry mass machine which is needed to deliver a cargo from one place to another.

Keep in mind that if you use chemical rocket thrust to partially slow down a loads impact speed, if you use such a drop shop, the exhaust from the rocket just might in part condense in the cold crater. But, probably we don't want to work hard to get substances that have been dispersed widely.

Done.

Ryugu:
An alternate source could be objects like: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/scie … %20mineral. Quote:

The laboratory measurements, however, revealed about 7 percent water, said Dr. Tachibana, a co-author of the new Science study. That is a significant amount for such a mineral.

Significant Carbon and some Nitrogen are also present, I believe.

For our Moon organic chemicals are present, but down the line we will want to consider importing more of them from Mars and Asteroids.

I believe that the surface of Ceres is about 20% Carbon, and it is expected to be water rich and also to have compounds with Nitrogen in them.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-07 04:51:58)

Void · 2023-07-07 10:13:31

Using a rotovator for dropping product and also lifting it may possibly make sense.

Some background materials from Isaac Arthur:
https://isaacarthur.net/video/upward-bound-skyhooks/
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _elevator/

I don't know particularly what I am after, but I have the idea that a rotovator would allow the dropping of organic mass, to fall on a declining slope of a shadowed craters interior. This should tend to cause the rotovator itself to climb to a higher orbit. If you fly a ship up and connect it and drop the organic matter, then the ship might be pulled up to be flung from the top of the rotovator after a 180 degree spin half cycle. This then would cause the rotovator to fall back to a lower orbit.

I know that some people think that skyhooks could pick up loads off of the ground, and set them on the ground, this is similar but not as demanding.

The ship that was flung upward, might also do the reverse as well.

So, I am not very in love with tethers as I feel that orbital objects may be likely to damage them, but the utility of something like this seems good and may be worth the trouble of dealing with the problems.

Done.

A rotovator might serve as a target for Neumann Mass Drivers based on the Moon. I think that if you had an equatorial rotovator and that it's timing allowed it to in a repetition drop an end to near the surface, then the Neumann Drive might "Plate" materials onto the end of the rotovator repetitively.

If you had a magnetic bubble on each end, then the output of the Neumann drive might impact the magnetic bubble, and possibly spray might be captured. I do think that the spray might naturally be of a neutral charge. However if you pulled electrons out of the materials of the spray, you might create a (+) charge. The electrons could be disposed of by also pointing them towards the Rotovator. OK, so I am trying to deal with the electromagnetic characteristics of a ionized spray, if one could be created. But maybe if the spray cools off below the curie point of iron or nickel it might be magnetic in that manner.

If the spray can be captured from a speed higher than the rotovator, then you might induce spin and orbital energy into the apparatus.

The hope would be then to be able to remove materials from the accumulators and take it away from the Moon. Of course dumping off organic matter to the surface of the Moon might compensate for taking spin and orbital energy from the device. The Lunar nighttime, might allow dropping organic matter off.

If you could pick loads up or drop loads off directly, I anticipate that this could have some practical potential.

Done.

So a Neumann Mass Driver, might simply push on magnetic fields in orbit, and perhaps not add mass. In this way, then, it would give more spin and orbital energy to the rotavator device, and this would allow spaceships to fly up and hook to the device and be pulled up. The Neumann Mass Driver in this case would simply make up the spin and orbit energy that was taken away by lifting a ship.

But if you wanted to simply have a orbital accumulator, it may be possible to add mass to something like that with multiple Neumann Mass Driver Nozzles.

But there are concerns about polluting the orbits with fine dust. So craft in such orbits might need to be rather rugged to withstand that.

Some orbits of the Moon are self cleaning as the objects in those orbits will experience changes in orbit that will cause the materials to impact the Moon's surface eventually. But if you keep pushing the orbital device with multiple Neumann Mass Drivers, it's orbit might be maintained well enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-07 10:50:19)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1176 2023-07-01 13:49:12

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1177 2023-07-02 11:01:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1178 2023-07-02 20:53:44

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1179 2023-07-03 08:36:52

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1180 2023-07-03 10:37:13

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1181 2023-07-03 15:13:53

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1182 2023-07-03 17:55:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1183 2023-07-04 08:13:21

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1184 2023-07-04 11:18:12

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1185 2023-07-04 14:17:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1186 2023-07-05 07:37:34

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1187 2023-07-05 09:10:35

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1188 2023-07-05 10:37:43

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1189 2023-07-05 12:05:18

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1190 2023-07-05 12:10:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1191 2023-07-05 12:39:53

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1192 2023-07-06 09:47:00

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1193 2023-07-06 10:32:03

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1194 2023-07-06 10:42:24

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1195 2023-07-06 13:46:37

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1196 2023-07-06 19:10:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1197 2023-07-06 20:12:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1198 2023-07-06 21:13:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1199 2023-07-07 04:14:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1200 2023-07-07 10:13:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Board footer