Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-06-25 12:46:30

I have been moving towards Hydrocarbon concerns in space and on Earth. At least I am trying.

I will seek some relatable references that I might find.

Query: "Terran Space Academy, Hydrocarbon Fuel Cell Breakthrough!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLf1ieu5a0U

Query: "Hot Bricks energy storage"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hot+Brick … 9ddcf7e8c3

Query: "Pyrolysis of Organic Materials"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Pyrolysis … 57b243c772
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

Tar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar

So, for instance for Earth, a source of organic matter could be grass clippings, hay. On Mars I think ice covered bodies of water if optimized may provide a plankton for the purpose.

To generate a Carbon for a fuel cell and perhaps before that some hydrocarbon fluids. And it appears that fuel cells can be used with Carbon itself. The process is more efficient than for burning hydrocarbons. On Mars, perhaps the dream might involve Carbon and Perchlorate powder. That would require development though, of course.

What my vision for it would be a pyramid of Adobe/Martian Pseudo Adobe, with a hot room with actual brick. And then to use the hot brick to conduct pyrolysis when convenient.

The pyramid polygon being a structure to hang solar collection and radiator items on. On Earth also the structure supporting wind power as well.

I choose not to argue about climate issues, I simply note that even if the Earth gets very sick, the survivors will want energy systems, and the Carbon in the air can be considered an asset, not a curse.

So, biofuels, and solar, and thermal methods.

And the production of export products from Mars perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-25 13:03:30)

Void · 2023-06-26 10:14:08

Words...............

Aggregate: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Agrigate& … b8b82acc65

Asteroids, well, this is getting goofy as for containers to contain a concept. I guess it is the best we have in English.

My ideas about words are that while they are needed for communication, they also obscure understanding at times and are used by a certain class of persons to posture as being an alpha apex sort of authority. To then subjugate those who more use vision to understand reality.

I guess Aggregate and Asteroid will do well enough. To a degree asteroids overlap Planemos, as in Ceres, but I guess the word tools may be good enough.

The word regolith, is a bit more ambiguous to me than is aggregate, but regolith can be an aggregate.

I think I can see the pivotal role of Mars, as to connect to Earth, Venus and the Asteroid belt proper and the Trojans.

This might not seem important but of course it is. Water management is a huge part of human existence:
Water Recycle: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/m … acc65&ei=6 Quote:

Nasa has revealed that made 98% of the water used by the crew on the International Space Station (ISS) is recycled sweat and urine.

So, it is beginning to look like the ISS was not a waste of money and time.

I presume that in time the other water losses can be better handled as well.

From my view, while eventually it may be desired and possible to Terraform Mars, in the beginning Mars might be considered to be a mining planet, and of course like Antarctica, a science project. When that era is over I would expect the Asteroids to come into play to replace Mars as a source of materials.

I would have liked to have a word that can include asteroids and Phobos and Deimos, as human activities involving them may be rather similar. The argument of the origination of the Martian moons has some importance, but asteroids also have different origination theories.

Nomenclature sometimes is seeming to be used in order for word people to play power games with humans.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Nomenclat … 9dbd37e70f
It may allow people of words to attain a test status, which may not be strongly related to understanding.

I think in the Foundation Sci-Fi series a "Intellectual" was made fun of as that person wrote books about existing books. the word? Perwifery comes to mind. Don't know if that spelling of that mispronunciation is correct or not, don't really care. I guess like many words you can use a label, to appoint authority to someone, but that is a librarian of a rather annoying sort, and I have a tendency to think that I prefer someone who may write about observations of the perception of reality.

In my opinion, now Phobos and Deimos along with Mars may open material paths to Earth/Moon and Venus, perhaps more, but also a pathway into the Asteroid belt.

In the case of small worlds, such as Phobos, Deimos and asteroids in most cases, I expect an aggregate of regolith that contains the fine particles accumulated over Eons of time. (EON! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eon ).

This could be dust from many sources, and so might include a distribution of substances.

Coffee pause..............

Vesta has evidence of Carbonaceous materials distributed to its surface. https://scitechdaily.com/asteroid-impac … -on-vesta/

Never mind.........

The solar wind also implants things like Hydrogen into the regolith, particularly the fine particles.

So, anyway, I think that the tools needed now are in existence or in reach for human expansion.

To work in the asteroid belt including also Mars and moons, riding on the solar wind may be good, the Neumann Drive is likely good, and so also may be such a thing as Mass Drivers that expel Oxygen and perhaps magnetic dust.

While Nuclear looks like it may have value, I think that in Microgravity, propulsion with solar electric is not wrong either, as solar concentrating mirrors can be of very small mass.

With these tools "Island Hopping" should be reasonable, as you don't so much require organic propulsion methods. Organic Chemistry is desired, but can be obtained from Mars and from the outer asteroid belt, and some asteroids displaced inward more towards the sun.

Even "Bone Dry" asteroids, (Which are not too likely), can provide the propellants to "Island Hop".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-26 11:20:57)

Void · 2023-06-26 11:24:45

We might have a look at this for Mars and the asteroid belt.

Hydrogen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … a70e&ei=15

If you can combine iron and water you may get Hydrogen as a fuel and useful chemical.

The result might end up being a useful ceramic object as well. Perhaps microbes could be involved.

Just the beginning of thoughts on it.

As a Terraform tool for Mas, released Hydrogen may doo a lot as it is apparently a greenhouse gas. This may suggest yet another way that Mars might at times warm up a bit naturally, if there were a significant eruption of Hydrogen.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-26 11:50:10

I guess I am a bit unfocused today, but I have had a further thought on SpaceX Starship and Vast Space.

It appears that Starship is going to lift space modules inside of it for Vast Space. I presume that such a Starship would have the "Alligator" fairings notion.

I am thinking that if you had a hinge on the nose of the ship, tied to such a module, you could fold the module out, and then close the fairing. You would then have Correct orientation for the decks of the module for spin gravity.

GW gave a value of .5 g as the practical possibility of tumbling the starship. With this you should be able to have more g force, and the decks of the module would be correct orientation as per up/down, while the assembly would spin.

If you then wanted to get the whole assembly down, you would stop the spin, fold the crew cabin (Module) back into the alligator fairings and then land.

This also could be done for a landing on Mars.

But as you may know I prefer Ballistic Capture. This would take longer, so you have to provide life support for a longer passage, but it gets you into a situation where you can interact with Phobos and Deimos. This then leaves you without propellant refill, unless you do land, or unless eventually you can get some of your propellants from Phobos and Deimos, or perhaps you bring along extra propellants to launch back to Earth.

For those who get excited about thinking beyond familiar paths, settle down. This is only talk.

If we bring along water and Dry Ice, we then have both radiation protection and refilling in orbit.

In this case you might retrieve samples from Phobos, Deimos, and Mars.

Here I am presuming that one-way Starships with robots have been landed on Mars, and that the level of object manipulation using robots was good enough to get the samples desired from Mars itself. Also close to real time manipulation of robots could occur with the humans in orbit and the robots.

While some of you will simply be annoyed by this post, I can point out that another option eventually would be to refill a starship on the surface in order to go on a mission to an asteroid from Mars. Here again a method of sufficient artificial gravity might be provided, and presuming you sent along water ice and Dry ice the means to come back. The bulk adding radiation protection.

And that then brings up the idea of burn as you go. That is would you hang around to make a total batch of Methane and Oxygen after your mission to an asteroid was done, or would you gradually transform your water ice and dry ice into propellants and return in that fashion?

Here again I am only suggesting possibility. I understand reasons not to do these things but also want to explore why to do these things. We might find some new things in the toy box doing this.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-26 12:14:00)

Void · 2023-06-26 12:29:37

Yes, probably too much coffee today, but I might as well ride it out.

Consider this an alternate reality projection.

I still think the original concept of a Starship being able to go to Mars sort of direct is a good way to measure what it might be. But to only have that as a dogma already, from the church of holy space cows, seems unwise to me.

Several possible ways of doing things differently will likely exist. You could use one Starship to boost another to Mars for instance. You could carry along another Starship as an auxiliary propellant tank. But of course then you need active cooling for the propellants, which is why I suggest bringing extra water and dry ice. The whole idea of total reusability can become a bit foolish when you are working on the edge of the capability envelope. This is proven true, as in some cases SpaceX and the customer are perfectly willing to expend 3 boosters on a (Falcon Heavy) to get what they want to achieve. Mars is a vastly superior objective. So "Drop Tanks" for water and Dry Ice could make sense, particularly if they can help provide radiation protections.

If you can cook up propellants from Mars, then you should be able to do it with water and CO2 you brought along.

As for sample returns from Mars, I would imagine if you combined the NASA plan with a Starship, that might work.

If you have a return rocket inside the nose of a landing expendable Starship, you could have the fairings dropped before landing, and lighten the load, and have robots get the samples take them up an elevator, place them in the payload of the sample return rocket, and launch to Martian orbit. In so doing you might replicate this several times and try to determine which sites are the best for a future human landing.

A return trip using water and dry ice carried along, might involve filling the header tanks several times, and firing the raptors a number of times. Just thinking.

And your return to Earth with humans and samples might involve a couple of Dragon Capsules brought along. You would not need to recover the Starship, so it might not even have a heat shield or flaps to begin with. You would have had to have brought an electric source with you to cook up the propellants, but that also could go into an orbit around the sun with the Starship.

The Dragon Capsules might have to be beefed up a bit, but they would be one time use I expect.

So, a different path to initiate work with Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 07:19:33)

Void · 2023-06-27 07:21:35

I think that in my yesterday post, I was moving towards greater harmony with the NASA Space Camp mentality.

I recommend it as they have pull, and do really have some strong achievements in their history.

NASA being a significant partner in the ISS, seem to have come a very long way in recycling water and maybe air, promoting in space manufacturing and a little bit of agriculture in space as well.

Things like "The Red Death!". I understand that this concern has been mocked, even by Dr. Zubrin, and likely the gamble would be safe. But the general public may not feel that to be true. If it happens that a human mission to Mars/Phobos/Deimos could for some reason happen before a crewed landing, as similar to Apollo, then it can be demonstrated that this concern is being addressed fairly well.

I believe that there are those who would use that "Card" against human expansion to Mars, for various reasons. Not all of those reasons would be sincere, but they may use it anyway, as some people do not use honest interactions to achieve what they want.

As for contamination of Mars, I think it may already have happened, (Or not), and is inevitable. But assisting the scientific community to get samples back that are reasonably free of risk of contamination would again give greater harmony to get a "Quorum" of willing consent. Getting samples from Phobos and Deimos will also be helpful in expanding the amount of willing consent for the action.

And as a rehearsal, such a mission would prove out much of what is needed, for actual landings of humans.

I think that it is asking a lot from the Starship Technology, to immediately do the entire path of landing, refueling on Mars, and return to Earth. And in that to have found the optimal place to establish a first base where you may likely try to build a city.

But it will also matter how the emergence of technology will play out. We cannot know which path will have better facilities when the time comes to launch a mission, so I feel we should be open to various alternate paths in this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 07:37:42)

Void · 2023-06-27 08:02:59

I am beginning to like the use of a Capsule(s) like Dragon or Orion to conclude the human part of a deep space mission.

The idea of the VAST Space stick space station with spin gravity is interesting, if it can eventually host at least 40 humans. But that would be overkill as per the 40 people for a deep space mission.

So, for a smaller crew, a smaller stick might be sufficient. I would think to have it fold out of a Starship fairing like a blade of a jack knife, then to spin the ship and the stick to get spin gravity. If you avoid the necessity of landing a Starship on Earth after the conclusion of a deep space mission, you can skip the air interface features like fins and heat shield. This would lighten it up. You then do need to bring survival capsules with you for humans to drop to Earth and survive in health.

A ship like this then can have packages attached to it's exterior like a pack mule. This can include radiation shielding of containers with water ice and dry ice.

While I have previously suggested then that the Starship assembly would drop the capsules to land on Earth and go into a sun orbit itself, if it is regarded as worth it you might have a robot ship go out and get it into Earth orbit. Such a robot retrieval ship might have ion thrusters. The humans and their science materials would have already gone to Earth with capsules.

I you could synchronize the robot ship to intercept the solar orbiting Starship, then it may be that upon connection of the robot ship to the Starship, they would have a good solar flux, so solar panels would be efficient as per thrust vs mass of solar panels.

This scheme might work OK for a sort of mission to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, but would be well adapted to missions to asteroids, which may be a good thing.

We may say, why not do the whole thing as robotic. Well, you might, but I think the hole idea beyond science is to discover how to deal with humans in the space environments.

The scheme involves chemical engines, and a possible nuclear boost to get humans to their objective faster and to bring them back faster.

It uses slower ion propulsion to get the large mass of the expedition back to an orbit of Earth.

Ion propulsion could also preposition a consumables depot at a point of travel in the expedition.

I have a liking for such a depot to contain water ice and dry ice, and I suppose it could have raw materials for 3D printers, and maybe some food and other things. You could have Liquid Oxygen and Methane, but those are harder to handle.

The idea of "Cooking" new propellants for Starship along the way, to do small batch burns is possible, but in the case of a mission like this I would think that larger "Header" tanks would be wanted, than are contemplated to land Starship.

So, a Mission to Mars might include a Depot of the type I have suggested prepositioned into an orbit of Mars by best means. I don't care if you have a nuclear or solar joy, or method of propulsion, just use the one you love, I guess.

And so this thinking could very well work for missions to NEO's.

It is a possible option.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 08:24:37)

Void · 2023-06-27 08:36:02

In the scheme I have recently described, I presume radiation shielding from Water and CO2 ices in containers. Then I hope to cook that into propellants to do a flyback to Earth. This then leaves humans and machines more exposed to space radiation, but what if you refill the containers with regolith from the object you visited. Phobos, Deimos, NEO?

That then however is rather a load to bring back but it would help protect the humans on the trip back.

I did suggest that the ship and humans would part company, as the humans would pass to Earth in capsules during a flyby. The ship doing a flyby of Earth without humans could do some kind of a flyby of Earth that would help it to intercept Venus, to do that Venus, and then pass back to Earth to do a Ballistic Capture to the Earth/Moon.

So, the bulk samples from Phobos/Deimos/or NEO would eventually be retrieved, and the ship as well.

Here again I am expecting a ion thrust ship to intercept the interplanetary starship along the way, to assist it's guidance back to an Earth orbit.

So, I guess this might be called a post mission robotic cleanup. The primary mission ends when the humans pass to Earth during the flyby, and the cleanup mission happens afterwards as I have suggested.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 08:42:13)

Void · 2023-06-27 10:20:45

As I recall OF1937??? indicated that the Lunar Starship could be called a "Deep Space Starship", so I think where I have been going sort of fits that title. If such a method were implemented, it would allow partial guidance of robots on the surface of Mars to find data, about resources, and also even to set up some of the needed infrastructure for the future.

If these devices used Ballistic Capture to get to Mars, that is a much broader window than for Mars Direct, Hohmann Transfer.

But the return would have to be timed for tighter planetary alignments, I expect for the Earth to be in position for a capsule(s) to transfer humans back to Earth from the Deep Space Starship.

If during these periods supply ships were landing on Mars with robots, and some of the infrastructures were set up, then landing a crew with a starship, with a Deep Space Starship still in orbit, may allow for a minimal generation of propellants on the surface of Mars for the first missions. The ships would not launch to Martian orbit to travel back to Earth. Instead, they would be of minimal life support, and without the propellants to leave Martian orbit. The crews would transfer to the Deep Space Starship to return to Earth, eventually using a capsule transfer method, and a robotic clean-up mission.

Down this road you would want to leave crew behind between missions, but I am providing an option for evacuation if necessary.

The Starships which brought Cargo Mars Direct, and then were used to be a bare bone return to orbit would not be wasted. They could be used to begin a space station in Mars orbit for instance. Or somehow brought back to service later. If a Mars space station then materials from Phobos or Deimos could be used to make radiation shields for them, as a start.

So, this in part avoids a do or die situation where you have to drop the crew down and they have to set up a propellant production facility, and fly a Starship from the surface of Mars all the way back to Earth, with a minimum of protections.

Done.

In order to stay on topic I will use the word Terra formation and para-Terra formation and say that these various things may help to arrive at the means to have a look at doing such things.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 10:36:51)

Void · 2023-06-27 12:44:27

Of course, it is more likely that I will not have all or even a small piece of what is in the end the best practices which should be adopted, but I do want to make an attempt to provide useful information.

As I see it I would like to avoid launching a long-term life support system off of Mars in the period of establishing humans on Mars. If you land a strong long term life support item to the surface, and you have also in orbit Deep Space Starship(s), then all you need launch is temporary life support, travelers to orbit, and perhaps water and CO2 to orbit.

The vision I have so far about early cargo Starships is they land, and then are unloaded and left idle. That seems a waste to me. They may be reasonably functional for a while. Before they deteriorate on the surface, perhaps they could be put to use.

I did mention transfers of crew to orbit with minimal life support and possible incorporation into a space station(s). But perhaps also, providing your propellant production went well, you might load the cargo ships with water ice and Dry Ice. One option would be to store such filled ships on a polar area of Phobos. If they were reflective enough, perhaps the ices could last long term if in wrappers of some kind.

You might say, well, why not just fill them with propellants on the surface? Because if you have a refinery in orbit, you don't need to care about dust storms on Mars in the same way.

Anyway, one argument against this would be that these should be sent back to Earth for reuse. However, good chances they would not arrive intact after an attempted landing on Earth. And the Star factory(s) may be churning out new ones at a price better than the value of returning one to Earth.

So, from my point of view the thing to do is get the most value out of them before they age too much.

You could chop them up for parts, that is another option and if they are damaged in the first landing, then perhaps that is what you would do. But, the option to use them for service may make some sense.

Earth might just send more with cargo, and then you would just use them up in the most cost effective way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-27 12:55:32)

Void · 2023-06-27 13:14:20

So, in the beginning the need to evacuate people to go back to Earth may be significant, but over time if the population of Mars did head towards 1,000,000, then flybacks to Earth will become much less significant. But missions from Mars orbits to asteroids may become important. So, being able to lift either propellants or the makings of propellants to orbit could be desired, as for a ship to go to an asteroid, it may not have the means to land directly to Mars.

At first for a Deep Space Starship to Mars, it might need a method to move water ice and dry ice to Mars orbits. But then a transition to sourcing from Mars itself might be desired, and finally more and more to get propellants for that from the moons of Mars.

Most likely at that point you might transfer over to the Neumann Drive methods to some extent and/or Mass Drivers, and/or Solar Wind Sailing.

To me that currently makes sense as a map of projections into time expected.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-28 10:53:57

I think what will be more exciting than Mars and the Moon, will be the advent of space stations around Earth. We think this will start emerging in the next few years. And unlike things further out, these space stations are expected to add to the Earths economic productivity.

This query may fetch information on that: "News about space stations"

Previously such news was mostly about microgravity space stations, and they are to a large extent where the payday will be. But the emergence of Vast Space and also the Neumann Drive, suggest that those two will be supportive of microgravity space stations.

If all goes well these things may begin to emerge in the next few years.

So, very likely, gone will be the complaints about money wasted on space research. At least for LEO.

The Neumann Drive is set to perhaps clear major object space junk, perhaps averting the Kessler Syndrome in LEO.

So, having developed such a LEO ecosystem for Earth, I would expect that it would be wanted for Mars, and likely near the very start of the habitation of Mars by humans and their robots.

In just recent posts I have described what I might now call "Mars Direct Splashing to Orbit".

Basically if SpaceX is mass producing cargo ships to go to Mars, I suggest that they do the Mars direct to the surface of Mars, and then get refilled with propellants, and then launch up to orbit of Mars. They may carry up cargos for needs in the Martian orbits. Of course, this cannot be done until the infrastructure to produce a lot of propellants is provided on the surface of Mars. Fans of Nuclear for this purpose can rejoice as I see no reason why that would not be a big desire, as I believe I witnessed at least one member suggesting that the output of nuclear is not only to be electricity but also waste heat which would be very welcome in the cold environment of Mars.

Doing this, the cargo ships that crash will obviously become scrap for surface operations. But if they are still flight worthy, then it could be sensible to send them to orbit as soon as possible before they age on the surface.

As I have suggested before, in some cases they might have the minimum ability to bring humans off of the surface to orbit, should a sort of evacuation be merited. This would likely be only in the beginning of settlement. After that, more likely passenger ships for short jaunts may become implemented in the Mars habitation methods.

But for a long time, cargo ships to Mars might be used until production in the hill sphere of Mars would be entirely local. Actually it may not ever be, as imports may be welcome anyway.

So, what's to become of a orbital junkyard of cargo ships? Well, to some extent salvage. Certain parts might go back to Earth, perhaps engines. But the bulk mass might become part of orbital infrastructure, or propellant for the Neumann Drive.

A space technology veteran like GW can sometimes talk some sense into someone like me. It becomes necessary to confess that a cargo ship shell is just that, a shell, and not in its raw form all that protective for humans, especially the propellant tanks. But, having Phobos and Deimos suggests that these metal balloons could be fortified with materials from the moons.

I would suggest electrostatic vacuum deposition as one possibility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrost … deposition

So, now suppose you process ore from these moons. A first action might be to react the ores with Methane from Mars, with a high heat. This should get Oxygen out of the ore, to create some water and CO2.

Then the ore might be processed by either the European process or the Blue Origin processes.

European: https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ation.html
My understanding is that the machine is based on a British machine that worked with CO2 rather than Oxygen and for Mars this is an option.

Blue Alchemist: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future

So now you can spray additional layers onto the "Metal Balloons" of the cargo starships, to strengthen them. You may also fill them with water, you may put various shielding's inside and outside of them.

You may assemble them into synthetic gravity machines, in some cases.

You may create solar panels from the various materials available, and also make propellants of various kinds, particularly I feel, propellants for Neumann Drives.

For Mars, you may also use the solar wind to propel these assemblies to different orbits, and in part to protect humans from radiation problems. The radiation protection would in part come from the magnetic fields used for propulsion in the solar wind.

And of course, some microgravity manufacturing would be facilitated. And with the raw materials from Phobos/Deimos/ and even Mars, some of that might be exportable to other markets in the solar system.

So, I think the "Mars Direct Splash" notion may have merit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-28 12:03:23)

Void · 2023-06-28 12:15:54

In the previous post, for the idea of "Mars Direct Splashing to Orbit", I have wondered about "One Time Heat Shields".

If you are going to send the ship up to orbit as soon as possible, tiles are not perhaps the thing you want to shed into the orbit.

I am thinking of a combination of ablative heat shielding and also a "Metal Melt Active Cooling".

I would think that the ablative feature would be on the outside of the Stainless Steel shell.

Can you also coat the stainless steel shell on the inside with a substance that will melt, before the Stainless Steel can melt? For the moment I am thinking of Aluminum, but I am somewhat aware that Aluminum and Iron can alloy, and that may not be desirable. But maybe there is a metal mix that would work, to take away the heat from the Stainless Steel Shell. Then hopefully like Aluminum, it may puddle in some location and be recovered from that.

Stoke Space is doing a similar active cooling with Hydrogen, but in this case it would be a one time use. The Cargo Ship goes to Mars Directly and tries to enter and land. Then the Cargo and maybe melt metal is recovered, the ship if refilled. Just enough Oxygen to get to orbit, but perhaps a full Methane tank, as Methane may be desired in orbit.

In this case you could still recover flaps, and motors, and engines back to Earth if it is desired.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-28 12:20:51)

Void · 2023-06-29 08:52:49

I see Dr. Johonson is offering doses of reality. As always, thanks for that Dr. Johnson.

Not yet up to speed on that yet, I have been contemplating some things about hardware that seems to be in reach, but not yet implemented.
That includes Starship and also I hope electric rocket propulsion, maybe the Neumann electric propulsion.

I exclude mass drivers from planets, but maybe allow them for propulsion. Tethers are too far off just now. So, just burning stuff and electric propulsions.

I do allow solar power and nuclear power as it appears these are in reach now, or maybe even soon.

I think that sailing on the solar wind is possibly something that can be brought forward in time, but no examples of it in reality exist in space at this time.

Working with that, I am thinking about "Supply Chains" in space, including Earth, Luna, Mars, and maybe some asteroids.

I recall an article that indicated that it could be 6 times as easy to get Oxygen from the Moon to LEO than from the surface of Earth to LEO. That at best is not substantiated yet.

Burnable fuels could include Methane, essentially Natural Gas. To me, early on that has to come in bulk from the Earth. We may hope that it can later come from Mars.

My thinking is that where that is most wanted is for transfers from a surface to a lowest useful orbit of Earth, Luna, or Mars.

I presume that each world can provide Oxygen. The possible sources that matter a lot are Luna and Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

Instead of transporting only Oxygen to LEO from the Moon, I am thinking of metal propellants from the Moon for Neumann Drives.

We transport LNG across oceans on Earth, so I think although many are horrified by boiloff in space, actually, I think big Methane tankers could be well protected from the sunlight, and so could transport Methane/LNG to orbits of the Moon from Earth first and then maybe even from Mars. When empty at the Moon, perhaps these could transport Oxygen back to Earth, maybe Mars, but I am not so sure that is worth it.

Technically, if you had a Methane Tanker, (Fuel Depot) in low orbit of the Moon, I am thinking that a starship variant could land with just enough Methane to still get back up to orbit, to the Fuel Depot. It would take on Oxygen from the Moon, enough to get up to orbit and enough for another landing. But most of all it would lift up metal propellants from the Moon for the Neumann Drive to consume.

So, the Neumann Drive would be used to move the Methane tanker LEO<>Moon. And then the hope is that there would be enough of a mass gain from this, to provide such propellants to send barges of cargo and Starships to Mars. While the Neumann Drive would be important for this, it would also be very good to bring to reality sailing on Magnetic Bubbles pushed by the solar wind,
Earth/Moon<>Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

Solar wind sailing as far as I can see works best if you "Follow the Wind". Going against the wind is much harder, so I am going to presume that shipping going from Phobos/Deimos/Mars will simply use the Neumann Drive, as propellants can be had from Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

Just on a wild guess, I am going to suppose that the ratio of mass to Mars+ and Earth+ will be 10 to 1. Much more being shipped to Mars, at least until there are 1,000, 000 people on Mars+.

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The reason I am setting all of that up is I have a hard time buying a ~~~2 year passage Earth+>Mars+ or 1000 ships at a time.
That was a good place to start, but in my thinking, I am wondering about holding all the burnable propellants in orbit for 1000 ships to launch fairly close to each other to Mars. And when they get to Mars, 1000 landings. Some landings being hard but not totally lethal, you may want medical staff, but 1000 ships at a time may be a problem. If some ships land off course on some other part of the planet as they have had trouble you may want a rescue team, but 1000 ships at a time, leaves them not practicing rescue most of the time but overwhelmed when the 1000 ships try to land.

I do not like the idea of 1000 ships on the surface of Mars waiting to be services/refilled, rotting in the harsh deserts of Mars. Granted some will be scrapped, and also turned into surface infrastructure, but many of them might still be fit to launch back to Mars orbit within days of landing, but in months may be unfit for it.

Coffee..................

What I am thinking of are giant rafts of ships and cargo, powered primarily by Neumann Drives and, I hope also by Magnetic Solar Wind Bubbles. This allows the assembly to get to Martian orbit, without immediate use of the dive into the Martian atmosphere running on fumes. Granted the dive method may well be wanted initially, but when you are trying to transport 1,000,000 people to Mars, and its orbits, you may well want to avoid that as a steady practice.

You may not even bring along that much of burnable propellants on the trip, as you may hope to get them from Phobos/Deimos/Mars. Here I am presuming that you cannot get burn fuels from Phobos and Deimos, but they must come from Mars. But I am presuming that you can get Oxygen and Metal fuels from Phobos and Deimos.

Pause......................

While the trip to Mars may be slower, a barge of starships and cargo would provide a lot of protection for humans Mass as radiation protections, and possibly magnetic bubbles as radiation protection as well. You would travel to Mars with a spiral or maybe even use Ballistic Capture. Very likely people would have access to synthetic gravity of various degrees, whatever is needed for sufficient health to be maintained for the people.

Upon arrival to Mars you would begin prepping ships for landings. The propellants may have been brought along, but may also be locally available, for landings.

The rigors of landings from Mars orbit are expected to be less than from interplanetary space.

Pause......................

While there might be some ships designed to repeatedly land on Mars, my "Dream Machine" is a one time use Starship. Dropping from Mars orbit, I expect the heating to be less than for coming from interplanetary space. If ablative heat shielding is needed, then it would be used, and very likely some of it will be needed. But I hope that these ships might use internal melt metal to help handle the heat. As a visual, imagine you could attach solder to the inner walls of the ship. Granted, solder that I am aware of does not stick to stainless steel. But we might want some metal of use that could melt. If the ship landed, the melt metal would be recovered, and also the ship refilled would launch up with a load of Excess Methane, and just enough Oxygen to burn. The landing legs would be left behind, hopefully they would be of useful materials. On such a ship, you could have fold out landing legs like a Falcon 9 1st stage, as you may have protected them with heat sinking and ablative materials. The ship goes back to orbit with Methane as the main cargo, without its legs as they are more needed on the surface of Mars.

Then in orbit things like the engines and flaps/motors can be recovered to send back to Earth or used locally. The shell of the ship then is fortified with materials from Phobos/Deimos, to make them as space ready shelter in orbit.

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I would not expect this to be a final formulation, it is just another attempt to project into something of value. Maybe something to build on.

It does not require water or Carbon from Phobos or Deimos, and may have some value as supporting other types and methods of access to Mars from the Earth/Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-29 09:54:42)

Void · 2023-06-29 10:17:36

If you wanted to use a starship for landing more than one time, then you would have to provide a new set of legs with it's own heat shielding for each landing, and of course you would have to shield the ship each time. Maybe that would be tiles then for the ship. Maybe a spray on ablative heat shield????

As for the Legs I wonder about a metal sandwich for them? I somehow during entry an internal metal melt could heat sink the legs, and if somehow that heat could radiate out to bring the metal back to solid before landing, then the melt metal would contribute to the landing resilience of the legs, but that is a very short time to expect a cooling phase change to occur.

Probably ablation is the best idea for the landing legs that get left behind each time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-29 10:20:27)

Void · 2023-06-30 08:04:39

If it seems that I am jumping about with ideas, it is because I am. To set a dogma of what is to be at this point is very wrong. We do not yet have a total set of best practices, and are not likely to discover them in large measure for a long time.

But I want to "Spade Up The Soil of Thinking" so that we can hope to grow gardens of ideas, and not just weeds of ideas.

Things tend to become dogma very quickly in this age. Our republic was assaulted by evil librarians many times, and we are in a fight with them yet again today. They try to create a defined reality and then hope to condition the public to become their obedient robot parrots to serve their desires. This comes more from the old world, as it is old, and fossilization of the mind and culture are facilitated by old. Here and also in pockets around the world are people who in part have found sanctuary from these slavers, or who have situations which allow them to fend off such predation, without entirely becoming the problem they want to fend off. I will not name them. But "specialization is for insects" as has been said by those better than me. I confess however that I cannot butcher a hog, and don't want to.

I will mention some ideas that I currently like that are not yet in the mainstream.

If cargo mass is to be shipped to Mars, then it may provide life support along the way for passengers, in some cases. Landing legs may be radiation shielding for instance. Water may foster photosynthesis and also give radiation shielding. Big pieces of machinery like boring machines may provide shielding. So, in some cases mixing cargo and passengers may be a good plan.

I see the value of "Mars Direct" for many cases, and those often early on.

But the emergence of new things are beginning to bend that dogma. Extended and better in space life support, Neumann Drive, and Vast Space notions, and also microgravity factories, change from the idea of becoming Martian "Land Lubbers" to being more generalized about our hopes and intentions.

It was not that long ago in years that Dr. Robert Zubrin suggested bringing Hydrogen along so that a ship could synthesize its own propellants from Mars atmosphere. But then ice deposits were discovered and ice mining on Mars for Hydrogen emerged as an idea.

In reality, I think we should consider both possibilities.

I think that with the emergence of new inventions of technology, the idea of massive barges of resources Earth/Moon>Phobos/Deimos/Mars, changes in thinking should be allowed.

While I have been and still think about the idea of a one-time Starship that lands on Mars and then launches back up to Mars orbits once, it also seems plausible to consider a 10 to 100 times Starship that leaps down and up from the surface of Mars.

This would not be "The Starship", there should be many possible ways to do Starships, and mixing and matching can be encouraged.

But here is one. In "The Martian" a tarp is put over the open cab of the junked-out assent ship to keep its weight down. For a certain type of Martian Starship, you might have a detachable crew/cargo compartment, and not fairings. If you have a means of unloading the entire crew/cargo compartment, then it is possible that the engines and propellant tanks could go back to orbit with a very blunt "Nose", but if you have a inflatable balloon to put on top where the crew/cargo compartment was located, it could provide aerodynamic smoothing. Just an inflatable nose shaped balloon that you would use over and over again. This is not be made into dogma, it is just a possible option for some and perhaps many cases.

As for landing legs they could hide behind the propellant tanks during entry to the atmosphere and fold out to be under the base of the engine compartment after maximum heating is over and before landing. You might leave the landing legs behind each time the ship launches from the Martian surface to Martian orbit. Hopefully the landing legs will be of useful materials that can be recycled to local needs on the Martian surface.

So, for such a partly reusable ship you might use multiple types of heat shielding. Perhaps tiles for the portion that goes repeatedly to orbit and comes back through the atmosphere, and a onetime heat shield for the nose section, either ablative and/or melt/vapor cooling. The leges may be somewhat protected from the atmospheric burn by being on the leeward side of the ship. So, they might just heat sink, but if more is needed to keep them strong, then that could be provided. The legs landing only once, a hot temperature on landing may or may not be structurally good. Some types of Stainless Steel get strong with heat, but plastic does not.

As for flaps, I suggest that the nose section flaps be fixed, and all the work be done by the faps on the engines section. So less motors and bearings. But if you did have movable flaps on the crew/cargo nose, I guess they could be removed and brought back to orbit to install on a new crew/cargo nose.

This ship might have an oversized Methane tank or a Hydrogen tank, or a Carbon tank, as eventually you would want to lift stuff up from the surface of Mars such as those.

As for the propellant game. If you are transferring large barges of materials to Mars, you may have large tanks of water, which may foster photosynthesis and also may offer radiation shielding. So, then upon arrival you have a Hydrogen source, and an Oxygen source for landing propellants. If this depletes your radiation shield in part, you might take regolith a Martian moon to help replace that protection.

So, you would not immediately be dependent on mining ice on Mars for your propellant for transits. You would early on want to begin to get CO and Carbon from the Martian atmosphere.

Pause............Coffee.................

So, if you are depleting the water resources in orbit to make Hydrogen for propellants then you may get Oxygen from some of the regolith from the Martian moons, and in turn this will probably yield more metal propellants for the Neumann drives. But over time when mining for ice becomes very built up, you might lift things like water, Methane, Carbon, and Hydrogen itself to orbit. But the bulk landing propellants would be Oxygen from the Martian Moons. The ships would come down with large loads but might go up relatively lighter.

Some thinking has it that to transit humans to Mars safely, quicker is better, and that is not always false, it can be true. But if you have massive barges of materials, then a slow transit might be good as radiation shielding may be provided, and life support per water, and maybe synthetic gravity as well. So slow and efficient as possibly from the Neumann Drive(s) may be another way to go.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 09:17:26)

Void · 2023-06-30 09:42:29

I guess the previous post offers some method for Down Mass to Mars with a removable crew/cargo nose section.

I have wondered about the inverse of that for the Earth as Up Mass.

If you bring a nose section up to orbit and leave it there, can you bring down a "Cylinder Starship Engine Section" though the atmosphere?

Well the upper flaps would have to be on the propellant tanks not the nose. And the glide angle would need to be different, and how you would do a heat shield on the blunt top end would be a challenge. But then the nose section would just be a crate you would leave in orbit and such fairings might be possible even to pressurize, if you welded them after removing the freight, propellants, (Maybe Neumann Drive Metals).

I think it may be possible, but certainly it needs a lot of work.

So then you would indeed have a specialized starship for Earth and then one for Mars, with universal noses for both. So, not entirely specialized.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-30 09:49:20

Continuing with the last post, the crew/cargo compartment, the nose section could have a greater diameter than the engine section. Ballooned out to accommodate big cargo, provided the engines section could lift it.

Then this compartment may not need flaps when it is joined to the Mars landing engine section as the size will provide the drag that flaps may have provided, so then the engine section may only need the two tail flaps if they are strong enough for the job.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-30 09:58:54

So, now if fairing size can be expanded for the nose and if the nose can be left in orbit these also may be made into "Spin Sticks" of stacks of these fairings for the "Vast Space" concept. Frankly I think that spin sticks may be the way to go, not toroid shapes.

Done.

https://www.vastspace.com/roadmap
Image Quote:

Actually, instead of cylinders make it a stick of starship noses, with the pointy ends towards the hub, joining each to the other "Above" it, or at the hub then to the hub.

As in this case atmospheric reentry is not going to be done you might put the anchor points on the outside surface of the noses, for the solar panels and other hardware to be anchored to.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 10:03:05)

Void · 2023-06-30 10:15:48

Looking at this consider it to be a spinning disk, potentially: https://www.vastspace.com/roadmap
Image Quote:

Now if you use Neumann Drives to spin this thing and hang loads off of this disk with tethers, you can release the loads and so have an orbital spin launch.

So, what if the gravitation changes up and down? It may still be found to be useful to maintain human health, if you can discover the envelop of practicality for both spin gravity and also spin-tether launches.

Your device including the solar panels is then a giant flywheel in the sky.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 10:19:13)

Void · 2023-06-30 10:29:25

Of course you might want to be concerned about backlash from the cable.

Perhaps we should review the ancient technology of slings and catapults.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catapult
Image Quote:
Quote:

Basic diagram of an Onager, a type of catapult

Various ideas come to mind, maybe even a lever arm that is motorized to give it more oomph!

I would need consideration. You also do not want to damage the spin station that much either.

But you might fling loads to different orbits with such a thing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 10:34:00)

Void · 2023-06-30 10:42:16

I had another somewhat related notion to post about today.

It has been said that solar to Mars is not that good as the solar flux drops off a lot.

However, if you have very thin mirrors that are adjustable you may impose a maximum tolerable flux on the solar panels all through the passage to and from Mars. The mirrors may not weight that much.

And if you could find a good way to cool those panels, you could increase the efficiency and the life span of the panels.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-30 13:08:24

As for these notions of a "Spin Station", I think that obviously the use of the spin to both maintain human health and to project mass to another orbit are fairly obvious. But also, the problem of radiation protections can have a triple character. As a tank of water could be used as both radiation protection and as flywheel mass, and yet again as a garden for life support.

Containers with water and air in them also may be in some way used as shock absorbers as well, if you are doing sudden momentum changes for masses.

The water can be a source of Oxygen at times, and the Hydrogen of it might be used in the processing of regolith. And of course, in certain situations water can become a source of burn propulsion substances.

So, the Cost of lifting Hydrogen and maybe even water itself to orbit may be well justified, even from Earth, but I would think from Mars as well.

Pause...................

Done enough.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 13:25:02)

Void · 2023-06-30 18:33:51

Went to the gym to do stuff, but 1/2 hour of cardio, my bad mood was gone, my heart repented of dark thoughts, and something came to me. Endorphins seem to help me a lot sometimes.

I may have touched a bit on it recently, but I want to consider a ring of iron dust and other dust around the Moon, using Lunar based Neumann Thrusters. This may be a bit like making a torus around Mars from dust from Phobos, or the 'E' ring of Saturn of spray from Enceladus.

The rules of such rings may be composed of gravitation, magnetism, and electrostatic forces, and of course the passage of time and the introduction of new materials over time.

The two things I hope to accomplish with this is to accrete mass in orbit of the Moon that can be collected for human purposes, and to perhaps make a right sized and strength magnetic net that will help to catch the protons of the solar wind to the Moon to create Hydrated materials and maybe water.

A bit about Saturn's 'E' ring: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/ … adus-ring/

We really don't need a "Best" propellant, Iron and even Nickle will do, and at least the Iron can be had from the Moon. I cannot be certain that the output of Iron spray from the Neumann drive will be magnetic after it cools below the Curie Point, but I suspect that it will. Magnetism will tend to draw the materials together. And Electron spray from the moon may make particles emitted from a Neumann Drive (-) in charge. So magnetism will pull particles together but like electrostatic charge may push them apart.

If you have a magnetic ring and spray additional Iron into it on ballistic courses, it may be that the combination of impacts and magnetism and electrostatic forces will cause the newly added materials to join the ring. I think that likely these Neuman Mass Drivers will be around the equator of the Moon and the ring may be send in a retrograde orbit as I think that may be more stable.

The Earth's gravity tends to make orbits of the Moon decay, but I think retrograde may be more stable. In any case the idea would be to collect materials from the ring, and to keep maintaining the rings spin with the addition of more materials ejected from the Moons surface to the ring with Neumann Mass Drivers.

We may want to try to make dust bunnies, that can collect non-magnetic dust. A Neumann Mass Driver might eject Silicon dust which may have a differing charge from the magnetic dust particles, and they may accrete into dust bunnies which are partially magnetic. Similar could be done with other substances that are solid.

Oxygen just might be possible to add in a similar way if you could eject it to the ring with a linear accelerator. I don't know if it would cling, or perhaps chemically combine. As for the Solar Wind, it is possible that at times it would inject protons into the rings dust as well.

We would be sort of creating an early solar system environment where we would expect the creation of dust bunnies, and even small objects. However, in orbit with a magnetic device we might accrete this material for various purposes.

We can think it likely that a large robot work force on the Moons surface could maintain the Neumann Mass Drivers, and the direction of humans on Earth and on the Moon to influence the activities.

This then would be a key to the rest of the solar system. Perhaps again using Neumann Drives to push space platforms around in interplanetary space.

I think it is good.

Done.

So perhaps alternative orbits may be better, that is a thing to learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-30 18:59:00)

Void · 2023-07-01 07:02:22

Some comments on recent materials.

The two objectives of having a ring around the Moon would be a magnetic field for the Moon to have some sort of influence on what the solar wind does to the Moon, and also to accumulate mass from the Moons surface to Moon~moons creatable.

Any such creations would be unstable and temporary. But even our world as we know it is temporary and unstable, just not as much so as would be these Moon creations.

Anything that is caused to orbit the Moon is technically a Moon~moon, and it likely to be more temporary than the Moon is by an enormous measure.

So, if building rings around the Moon is too great a task, can we add to a Moon~moon with spray devices from the Moons surface? In this case I am thinking of the Neumann Drive.

Can we direct the spray(s) from many such distributed thrusters to such an object, and can we get the materials to stick to it and also levitate its orbits?

We do have notions of Linear Mass Drivers, but this is chunks, and the methods to accumulate those materials to a Lunar Orbit or an "L" location are complex. The Neumann Drive is rather simple as a mass projector.

I have been thinking about various ways to make created Moon~moons more attractive to the mass. Magnetism and electric charge are possible factors. Also the differential speed of the spray matters. At some speeds it might stick and accumulate from just phase changes and thermal effects, but if too much energy of impact it may erode such a Moon~moon.

I believe that the output of the Neumann Drive is relatively neutral as per electric charge. In space electron beams are possible although magnetic fields will tend to bend them. A hot cathode might boil off electrons. A Moon~moon might emit such a beam and make itself of a (+) charge, and then a hope would be that you could paint (-) electrons onto the atoms of the output of the Neumann Drive.

I really don't know what the effect of a artificial magnetic field could be as well. Suppose you had a magnetic field imposed on such a Moon~moon. Then the spray of atoms from the Neumann Drives on the surface, how would that interact on an intercept of that field?

If we can find a method of accumulation, of mass to a Moon~moon(s), the leverage would be very great. Robots, like a derivative of Optimus, on the Moon could of course amplify human efforts to manipulate objects on the Moon itself. Then, if the materials can be projected from the Moon to rings or Moon~moon(s), that further amplifies it. And we can keep in mind that that same effort on the Moon could run parallel to gathering energy on the Moon, perhaps to project to other locations like the Earth.

Also the materials of the Moon~moons, could be fashioned into many types of machines in orbits.

I feel that this might work and would certainly have the potential to improve a technological peoples future.

I think it is worth some tries. And Yoda, there is/are "Try(s)".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-01 07:27:40)

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