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#1101 2023-06-04 23:31:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess I may likely have to correct the solid-state heat engine notion of the Lunar Ring.

I think a planetary ring might qualify however as the ring would be dominated by the gravity.  For the Lunar Ring I think it would be dominated by the Earth's gravity.

But I am not very sure about any of it now.

But means to spin the ring are just fine, Photon Sail, Solar Wind Sail, or perhaps ring motor scheme.  Just not sure about the expansion and contraction of the ring, acting in various gravity fields and combinations of gravity fields.  It doesn't matter much as it was more of a novel though than anything.

This sort of thing can be annoying and also an exercise in understanding.  I am thinking I don't got it yet.

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#1102 2023-06-05 10:26:20

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to indicate why I am so Moon centric at this time.

SpaceX is Mars centric still but has side interests.

NASA is intending to work with the Moon more than Mars.

I want SpaceX to continue with their original plans for Mars as much as they can, but any experience with Starship, even for the Moon will accelerate the development of Starships in general.

Now as far as the Moon goes, I will argue that it has energy raw materials that can be turned into resources.  It has raw materials of minerals which also can be turned into a resource.  It has a significant gravitational field which may allow the use of methods often similar to those used on Earth, to process energy and minerals.  It has things to discover and research about, science.

The same could be said for other worlds including Mars.

But as far as Directed Animation goes, the Moon is by far the most accessible.  This is due to the relatively favorable degree of Time Latency between Earth and Mars. Correction: Relatively favorable time latency of the Moon to Earth.

We are animated patterns in the materials of the universe.  Some say that there are spiritual patterns, but in that case, they must be composed of some type of materials.  I don't believe that a pattern can exist without some type of material.  If there are types, we do not well perceive and manipulate, I allow that in my thinking, but a pattern needs a representation in a material.  Perhaps under what we call materials are energy waves.  Still, I guess I would consider that to be a type of material.

On the Moon, even if we never were able to substantially move materials off of the Moon, is a world where we could light a fire of "Pattern Replication".

And so over time a partially self-building and expanding machine, I hope with compatibility with some type of human, and to some extent conforming to some better types of human intentions, if that can be defined.  (I think it can be).

Tesla Bot does not exist all by itself and is not the only form of animation we might introduce to the Moon, but it may be very useful to represent human interests on the Moon.

Morality about the use of a Tesla Bot, is different than to use a human for useful things.  Its mind is linked to a hive mind, and its local mind is not very significant relative to the hive mind.  I think that if they are used in space research it would be important to make children understand that a inactive robot on the Moon was not "Dead", but not a person and perhaps just inactive.

As far as hive minds go, I wonder if that would be plural.  Would they work together as a singular interest or would they compete and have individual intentions?

In the terminator it is Skynet and only Skynet as far as the story is understood by me.  In case they did get crabby with each other, what happens to humans?

Well anyway, an expanding workforce on the Moon of robots could do things like build telescopes, and of course build housing for their expansion and perhaps also for Humans on the Moon.

And I really do think it would be a really good combination of virtual reality and actual Lunar reality to blend the minds of humans into "Nearly" real time pattern animation on the Moon and also perhaps recorded pattern animation on the Moon.  In other words, like in the Movie Avatar, you could walk your avatar on the Moon around.  Of course, that has to be regulated to prevent vandalism and damage to science and historical assets.

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Last edited by Void (2023-06-05 20:48:27)


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#1103 2023-06-06 09:09:07

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I had a look at this today.  I am interested in projections about human health living on the Moon.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/moondust-radi … n-the-moon
Quote:

Moondust, Radiation, and Low Gravity: The Health Risks of Living on the Moon Apollo astronauts inhabited the moon for just a few days, but the long-term physiological effects of lunar living could be severe

Quote:

Ben Levine, director of the Institute for Exercise and Environmental Medicine, a joint program of the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital Dallas and the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, predicts that the moon’s one-sixth gravity will not put enough weight on our bodies to protect against loss of bone mass, muscle strength, and heart pumping capacity. But fortunately, he points out, effective exercise regimes already exist that can be adapted for life on the moon. “If you do what they do on the space station now,” Levine says, “you should be able to completely prevent ongoing atrophy.

Query:

Health of humans in Lunar gravity

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Health+of … 613a1b8ea7

It actually looks fairly good for adults that would use a exercise maintenance program.  The idea of artificial gravity on the Moon seems to center around Japan.  And they admit that it is not likely for about 100 years to do it in a major way.

Dust, I think is handled by having layering.  I have suggested 'A' frame sheds with solar panels on the roofs pointing Earth and West.  That can serve to protect a "Cleaned Area".

I suppose another thing would be to partition the interior as well.  Robots that can go outside, might only come into the interior in certain areas, and so not track in the dirt, I guess.

You might even "Sweep" off a certain distance around such enclosures, and make the dust into some solid object, in order to keep the dust at a distance.

As for radiation, I don't know why humans should generally place themselves in positions of exposure as spacesuits are going to be expensive, relative to avatar robots.  Virtual Reality bonding a human to a avatar robot, along with Neuralink, may make it rare for a human to have long exposure to the surface.

But of course, this is just my notion of a possible action into the future.  The future will be for those who will be there and will do it, it is said.

My thinking does keep wandering.  Now I have avoided tethers and skyhooks, but I guess I will see if I can find information on it from my betters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_%28structure%29
Quote:

Skyhooks on the Moon. With the anticipated return to the moon, and plans by Blue Origin and others to use lunar resources as a stepping stone to Mars, a skyhook in lunar orbit could be an efficient mechanism to lift resources off the surface of the moon. See more

Image Quote: 330px-Cycloid_f.gif

Quote:

Skyhooks on the Moon
With the anticipated return to the moon, and plans by Blue Origin and others to use lunar resources as a stepping stone to Mars, a skyhook in lunar orbit could be an efficient mechanism to lift resources off the surface of the moon.

The lower gravity of the moon, lack of atmosphere, and lack of human populations mean that a skyhook in lunar orbit could be far more feasible to build.

Lunar resources could be used to build larger space stations and space vehicles. Water (ice) has been found in polar regions of the moon and could be used to create hydrogen fuel, and oxygen for life support. Mass from the moon could also be used as a counterweight and to help construction of an Earth-based skyhook (or other orbital access infrastructure) in part from the “top-down” potentially lowering costs.

I think I like the notion.  It occurs to me that it could be associated with Lithobraking.  Oh! The disrespects! smile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobraking

But if you wanted to get Carbon Dust onto the Moon, this might not be so bad.  It would tend to lift the skyhook, and deliver the dust as a usable asset, (I hope).  Nitrogen is much more difficult.

The notion of Tar comes to mind, I think that can contain Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen.  Perhaps it could be dropped as cold small particles, and might not find the action so harsh as to decompose immediately.

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6710476

So, then Tar might be manufactured in space, from various sources.  But some might think to carefully remove and place containers onto the surface of the Moon.  Dropping materials would be easier, but perhaps not with good enough results???  Down Mass then.

So, a delivery system for bulk materials might work that way.  And some have thought about using Mass Drivers and nets on tethers to catch loads of about 10 kg, so that would be up mass.

I am afraid that at this point I have respect for the Lunar Gateway.  It could eventually be where a large synthetic gravity machine(s) might exist.  It is not the only possible place, but it could be such a place.

As for skyhooks they might be associated with spacecraft that are powered continuously or periodically by sun effects, and perhaps beamed power.

I guess that is a fair amount.  What I think now for what it might be worth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-06 09:50:07)


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#1104 2023-06-07 09:50:57

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I am thinking that any expansion into space may be pushed by the direction of intentions but will be pulled by the vacuum of the path of least resistance.  We don't have certainty of what that will be at this point.

I have thought about possible early attempts at additive artificial gravity on the Moon.  Like Vast Space I am wondering about a "Stick" or "Baton".

For those who remember record players, I am thinking about a stick laying on a disk shaped Platten.

access to its hub might come from below, perhaps even a rotating seal, vacuum grease?  I suppose the disk would be supported by electromagnetism towards the more outer perimeter.  Perhaps such as this might be in the 'A' frame solar sheds I suggested.  This presumes that a significant part of a healthy life for at least an adult human could be in Lunar gravity but that this "Jig" would enhance health.

And then the question of cost comes to mind.  But with a robot and AI economy, do previous economic factors count anymore?

But what you might do in this manner might be done better elsewhere for a lesser price.  Perhaps in orbital habitats or on another world.  So, the path of least resistance would apply.

If there was utility in having a population of humans on the Moon, then perhaps that would number in the thousands, and be vastly dwarfed by the number of robots.  This could be economically productive, but then might be connected to an economic network existing in the solar system.

While lately I have been considering Venus as a possible source of chemicals needed to complete what the Moon can provide, even then orbital habitats may absorb materials from both the Moon and Venus in that case.  Then only a few workers and researchers on the Moon.

Of course, Asteroids are a potential source of anything that Venus and Luna could supply.  So, for now it does seem to me that the path could be Moon>Mars>Phobos/Deimos>Asteroids>Venus> and more.

The idea of snatching water and precious metals from special asteroids can fit into this, but I think that a combination of asteroids including stony asteroids makes lots of sense as the Moon provides stony materials at a gravitational cost.  Oxygen as a propellant in Mass Drivers seems valuable to me.  Stony asteroids and nearly all asteroids can provide Oxygen.

Other forms of propulsion will also matter of course.

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Last edited by Void (2023-06-07 10:13:57)


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#1105 2023-06-07 11:42:31

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am generally not trusting of tethers.  Still, it occurs to me that a solar "Pinwheel" sail could be powered by heliostats on the Moons surface, to generate spin and orbital positions.  This might allow flinging payloads, and perhaps even picking up objects launched from the Moon.

So, then rather than pushing a Photon Sail with lasers you could simply push it with a focus from an array of mirrors on the Moon.

This than converts solar sailing from a carrier to a launcher.  So, then no slow acceleration of the launched object as in Laser propelled sails.

You could alternately use a method to utilize the solar wind to spin a "Pinwheel".  But of course then you have to be likely to involve an electric generating source of some kind.

I suppose this could be other places than in association with the Moon.

I suppose that these are an alternate form of "Mass Driver".  In the case of the "Photon Sail" version, you skip electrical power though, and don't bother with lasers either. 

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-07 11:48:06)


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#1106 2023-06-07 12:18:44

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I thought I was done, but it occurred to me that by associating synthetic gravity habitats with the solar spin launch process an efficiency might be achieved.  So a habitat might in part be the flywheel that stores the energy for the launches.

I think that this might be asymmetrical, where you have a relative size of planet and moon, where the habitat is the Planet, and the launch platform end is the "Moon".

So, depending on proportions, the habitat may experience a fractional reduction in artificial gravity when the "Fling-Launch" occurred.

Really not that different from the "Spin-Launch" we know of, but in space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-07 12:22:42)


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#1107 2023-06-07 19:57:15

Void
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Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I am not so sure about the previous post.  It needs more consideration.

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#1108 2023-06-07 19:59:05

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been thinking more about robot orbital habitats with synthetic gravity.

That may seem silly, but I think a bit of gravity, for typical industrial processes is helpful.

So, a ring with factory floor for robots to work in could be 1/6 g like the Moon.  As we are likely to be adapting industrial processes done on the Earth to the surface of the Moon, this makes some sense to me.

There would be much less in protective measures incorporated into this factory.  So Vacuum inside, and less radiation protection.  Radiation can also be a problem for AI so I guess that has to be considered.

I suppose some lighting and thermal controls are desired. And power charging stations for the robots.  While the structure would be primarily facilitating robot activity, some small space might be devoted to life support for a few humans, if they have a useful purpose to do work that the robots cannot do.

So, now if we have a source of materials and energy air locks are largely not involved in most movements of them though a process.

Sources of Materials to process are of course worlds perhaps as large as Earth, or as small or even smaller than Bennu.

Energy is likely solar, but could be nuclear.

I suppose a fair argument is that a similar work force and factory could be established on Mars.  Fair enough.

But I am looking for a "Chain Reaction".  Start with these fed from Earth, then the Moon, then Phobos, Deimos and asteroids.

At some point such fed from worlds other than Mars may be assistive to the establishment of a 1,000,000 person population on Mars.

Certainly Oxygen and hardware made of Luna, Phobos, and Deimos, and maybe asteroids may be helpful.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-07 20:15:07)


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#1109 2023-06-08 10:46:50

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would like to tie into this new topic, (th) and Calliban have already done help in it, so thanks.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 83#p210583

Quote of Topic Title:

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» PEC devices (photo-electrochemical devices)

I see this as a potential terraform tool as well as what has been discussed so far.

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Last edited by Void (2023-06-08 10:48:21)


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#1110 2023-06-09 10:26:32

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been considering 'A' frame solar structures for worlds for a bit now.  Originally for the Moon, and now starting to think more about the Earth and Mars.  Also I have begun to think of Tetrahedron structures as well at higher latitudes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote: 280px-Tetrahedron.jpg

The image is convenient.  At higher latitudes a structure of a Tetrahedron could have the brown face pointed poleward, and the green faces pointed to the Southeast and Southwest.

Construction on Earth is sometimes involved with 'A' frames.  Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=a- … 217&ch=537

There is some interest in domes as well, but I am dealing with Tetrahedrons and 'A' frames, thinking mostly of Luna, Earth, and Mars for now.

Historically fixed solar panels are pointed at some compromise of light angles for light coming from the sun.  Or then are place on convenient roof tops pointing in the direction of the equator, generally.

On the moon the concept of a solar ring might have involved flat solar panels on the equator, pointing "UP".

But the Germans have come up with bifacial solar panels mounted vertical.  It occurred to me that by spreading the base of the bifacial panels you could create an enclosed volume.  So, then an 'A' frame, and now also perhaps a tetrahedron.

For Earth or the Moon, I do not imagine these to be pressurized.  For Mars they might be pressurized just a bit to cross the threshold for more rugged types of life to survive inside them or for ice or water to be stabilized within them at certain temperatures.

For Mars the condensation of CO2 on them could be a concern at higher latitudes, and dust will be a concern everywhere on Mars.

Not the same for the Moon, only perhaps dust may be a slow, small concern.

For the Earth, weather features will of course be a concern.  Also, human behaviors, particularly adolescent, particularly males, have to be considered as they may do dangerous things.  That that is true with all structures built.

The direction solar panels are taking is to be more efficient, less costly, and of lighter weight, which is favorable to considering building structures like this.

I am imagining that the sun-facing walls/roof parts of these can have a patchwork of solar panels and windows if desired.  Pretty much determined by desires and local conditions.

Where I live winter snows are to be expected and snow cover lasts for months.  From my point of view the reflection from that snow can be a contribution to solar energy received by the structures, just when it might be wanted.  In places without such deep winters, such snow cover on the ground is not likely to persist.  Snow cover on solar panels would be a concern, but that is true if on roof tops as well.  I presume it can be handled.

If you wanted to incorporate a seasonal thermal storage system it could be inside of a structure(s) like this: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Po … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Heated Sand Energy Storage - Polar Night Energy Full Interview
YouTube50.9K viewsMay 14, 2021

So, this of course could be useful in places on either of the three worlds.

For Earth, ventilation can help to remove leakage heat in the warm seasons and in the cold season, leakage heat will keep the interior more temperate in temperature.

For the Moon and Mars not so much, but you probably don't care that much.  For Mars if you have excess heat you might be pushing it into water either with ice over it or liquid water in a somewhat pressurized structure.  On the Moon, I don't think the robots will care that much and they can be protected in various ways anyhow.

In hot climates these might have open walls to allow convection cooling.  They would provide shade for the ground though.  Depending on lighting, some plants might grow well in the relative shade.

You could incorporate some living space into some of these for humans, but generally the interiors should be considered to be like attic space of basement space, pavilions, greenhouses.

Perhaps it would be affordable to put these over water in some places.

Done

This is the German notion that stimulated my thinking: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/ne … rformance/  Quote:

Researchers in Germany claim vertical solar panels may be better than horizontal solar panels. Typically, solar panels are mounted horizontally and oriented toward the south to get maximum exposure to the sun as it travels across the sky. Instead of lying flat, they are angled at between 20 and 35 degrees, depending on how far from the Equator they are located. There are complex mathematical formulas that tell solar farm developers the precise angle the panels should be mounted at in Pensacola, Peoria, or Penticton. There are tracking systems that can move the panels during the day to follow the sun, but they are expensive and need regular maintenance.

But what if conventional wisdom is wrong? Researchers at Leipzig University of Applied Sciences claim that mounting bifacial solar panels with one side facing east and the other facing west would produce more renewable electricity and reduce one of the side effects of traditional solar energy farms — an abundance of electricity at midday and not enough in the morning or afternoon. Their study was published in the August, 2022 edition of the journal Smart Energy.

Image Quote: Vertical-solar-panels.jpg

Done

Well, I guess I want to mention that for some locations, for the Tetrahedron especially, I imagine adding wind power to the assembly as the frame would help to make a base for a windmill of some sort, and the wind acting on the surfaces of the structure might amplify the force to the windmill.  I am not sure what type of windmill, and of course there could be problems if it is not done correctly.  But then this would allow further input to a thermal energy storage device or even a battery system.  I think maybe Texas?  Minnesota?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-10 10:45:53)


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#1111 2023-06-10 10:04:08

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing with the notions of 'A' Frames and Tetrahedrons structures:

Possible windmill: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Tw … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Can This Genius Wind Turbine Outperform Rooftop Solar?
YouTube689.5K views3 months ago

https://www.aerominetechnologies.com/
Quote:

Designed to integrate seamlessly with existing solar solutions, Aeromine is sleek, silent, and easy to install, making it a cost-effective and space-efficient renewable on-site energy solution.
A single Aeromine unit provides the same amount of power as up to 16 solar panels.

Looking at it more deeply, this type of windmill does not seem to be compatible with slanted roofs, or would not work to maximum under such conditions.  However, they are interesting, and perhaps someone will eventually figure out how to make a device which would fit the structures I am currently posting about.

For Earth applications, I want to have an open area around the structure which is large and to the sunward side of the structure, and provides reflected light to the structure from the ground.  Such an open area might also be favorable to wind powered generators of some kind on the roof of the structure.  Such an open area could be a park for a neighborhood for instance.

The Albedo of the ground then would be important: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo

This Table is in the link:
Sample albedos
Surface    Typical
albedo
Fresh asphalt    0.04[5]
Open ocean    0.06[6]
Worn asphalt    0.12[5]
Conifer forest,
summer    0.08,[7] 0.09 to 0.15[8]
Deciduous forest    0.15 to 0.18[8]
Bare soil    0.17[9]
Green grass    0.25[9]
Desert sand    0.40[10]
New concrete    0.55[9]
Ocean ice    0.50 to 0.70[9]
Fresh snow    0.80[9]
Aluminum    0.85[11][12]

In the area I live in, it is common to have a number of months where the ground could be rather reflective from being covered with snow.  Of course this is when solar energy is harder to come by.  So, that is favorable.

In those months the sky can be cloudy for many of the days, but cloudy skies do not completely remove the collection of solar energy.

https://us.sunpower.com/home-solar/do-s … loudy-days
Quote:

Anyone who’s gotten sunburned on a cloudy day knows that solar radiation penetrates clouds. For that same reason, solar panels can still produce electricity on cloudy days. But depending on the cloud cover and the quality of the solar panels, efficiency can drop to anywhere from 10 to 25 percent of the … See more

So, you get some energy. 

Going to the Moon, the ground effect might be favored by Aluminum foil on the ground.  Aluminum mirrored heliostats might work well.
Heliostats might work in concert also to send power to an orbiting structure.  Cleaning may be needed at times, the Moon does have some dust moving around.

For Mars, Heliostats could be very useful in similar ways, but Mars is more energy starved.  Dust on Mars also will be very significant.  So cleaning methods will be a priority.

Pressurizing a Tetrahedron on Mars is an interesting possibility.  If you put appropriate counterweights on the three faces exposed to the atmosphere, it should be possible.

For this shape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote: 280px-Tetrahedron.jpg

The brown face pointing to a polar area, heliostats poleward to the structure could send light into the brown face which might be dominantly of a transparency, windows.

For the two green faces, Heliostats could send light to them from the southeast and southwest.  Those faces might be entirely of solar panels.

If the mirrors for the brown face do not reflect UV very well, that could be an advantage.

https://www.glassnmirrors.com/do-mirror … 0spectrums.
Quote:

As a general rule, most mirrors will only reflect a very small amount of UV light as the glass on the front of them absorbs the majority. In saying this, mirrors that are made from polished aluminum can reflect as much as 80% of the UV light.

So, along with the atmosphere of Mars and this method a path to fairly clean light should exist.  As it happens even the windows can block some forms of UV light.

Experiments with Cyanobacteria indicate the 50 millibars may be plenty for a good growth of them.
This article says 100 millibars: https://phys.org/news/2021-02-biotech-r … teria.html

This article suggests lower limits for such life simulation for Mars: https://www.planetary.org/articles/2012 … rvive-mars

So, while you might very well want to have some of these pressurized well enough for humans, most of them could be of a lower pressure, to economize on costs vs benefits.

I am particularly interested in the possibility that these could be used to melt ice covered bodies of water near the polar ices, at each pole, or even other ice slabs and such.  To do that though it has to be factored in damage to the structures that could occur if water and ice shift about as melting, freezing, and evaporation occur.

One way to stabilize such built situations would be to use a heat source inside the polar ice caps proper to melt tunnels and chambers inside of the ice, and direct that water to run into your ice and tetrahedron covered bodies of water.

The accumulation of CO2 ice in the winters could be a real problem, as it might damage the built structures.  This would not be the case after the planet were warmed up a bit, or at least not as big a problem.  But it would be wise to anticipate the problem of winter precipitations onto the built structures.

While so far I have anticipated melting ice and structure covered bodies of water with energy that naturally occurs on the surface of Mars, this process may be enhanced by adding energy from orbital devices around Mars.  Even Elon's flash bombs might help.

Done.

As an afterthought for this: https://phys.org/news/2021-02-biotech-r … teria.html
Quote:

Verseux and his colleagues first grew Anabaena for 10 days under a mixture of 96% nitrogen and 4% carbon dioxide at a pressure of 100 hPa—ten times lower than on Earth. The cyanobacteria grew as well as under ambient air.

That looks like you need to extract Nitrogen from the atmosphere and introduce it into the growth chamber.  But reality is you could probably do quite well just adding more Martian atmosphere.  As the CO2 was consumed some of the other gasses such as Nitrogen and Argon should build up in the internal atmosphere.  You might want to then extract lots of the Argon and perhaps for of the built up Nitrogen for other uses.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 10:49:52)


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#1112 2023-06-10 11:42:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing with the last few posts, I note that in a way, an 'A' frame or Tetrahedron frame could be considered to be a sort of "Attic" without a house.  (You could put living space in them though).  Attics tend to get hot inside.  From sunshine.

This might suggest an "Air Sourced Heat Pump": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump
Quote:

In a typical setting, an ASHP can gain 4 kWh thermal energy from 1 kWh electric energy. They are optimized for flow temperatures between 30 and 40°C (86–104°F) suitable for well insulated buildings. With losses in efficiency, an ASHP can even offer a full central heating solution with a flow temperature up to 80 °C (176 °F).[1]

Quote:

In cold climates

The outdoor unit of an air source heat pump operating in freezing conditions
An air source heat pump designed specifically for very cold climates can extract useful heat from ambient air as cold as −30 °C (−22 °F). This is made possible by the use of variable-speed compressors and manufacturers include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.[6] One Mitsubishi model provides heat at −35 °C, but the coefficient of performance (COP) drops to 0.9, indicating that resistance heating would be more efficient at that temperature. At −30 °C, the COP is 1.1, according to the manufacturer's data [7] (the manufacturer's marketing literature also claims a minimum COP of 1.4 and performance to −30 °C [8]). Although air source heat pumps are less efficient than well-installed ground source heat pumps in cold conditions, air source heat pumps have lower initial costs and may be the most economic or practical choice.[9]

So, this suggests that you could capture and store heat from your very large "Attic" much of the year, depending on local conditions of course.

So, in the case of Polar Night energy as an example you would be refrigerating your "Attic" to fill up a thermal reservoir of sand.

This in turn may extract heat from your solar panels if you made them in the correct way.  Cooled solar panels will be more efficient, so that increased efficiency will help power the heat pump.

Here is polar night energy again: https://polarnightenergy.fi/

This could make sense for locations on the Earth, and if it could be done on Mars, would be very valuable as well to provide stored heat and to also melt large bodies of water.

For a place like Texas though I guess you might want to employ forced convection at night to cool the interior of the "Attic".  You would probably use different methods of structure as well.

But the device may make many higher latitude locations more suitable for solar and maybe wind eneryg.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-10 11:55:42)


Done.

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#1113 2023-06-10 20:49:52

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void,
You sure cover a lot of topics, as tahanson stated in post#1093, and I mean that as a compliment. If you don't mind I'd like to mention something you brought up in one of your posts. In post #1095 you posted the following link:

NASA Is At War With China Over Moon Water

I did a search on this forum looking for Bill Nelson's testimony to members of the House Appropriations Committee at a hearing on April 19, 2023. Mars_B4_Moon did post something about it (post#312 under "Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first"), but not much more has been said on his post.

Ever since Nelsons testimony on April 19th, there have been many articles written about NASA being in a Moon race with China. We know there is water on the Moon at the South Pole. The fear is that if China gets to the Moon first, they will claim the South Pole (and water) as theirs, and will tell the rest of the World to stay away. Here are some articles about China and Bill Nelsons testimony:


nUoqinF.jpg


Nelson supports continuing restrictions on NASA cooperation with China

He also reiterated comments about competition with China in space exploration. “Not the same as Apollo, but we’re in a space race with China,” he said when asked by the subcommittee’s chair, Rep. Hal Rogers (R-Ky.), if there was a space race between the U.S. and China.

“China has, in the last 10 years, established a very successful human space program,” Nelson said, describing development of China’s space station and long-term plans for human missions to the moon. “So, is that a space race? Yes, sir, I believe it is.”

He added, though, that NASA was not returning to the moon simply to beat China there. “But there are other reasons that we go to the moon, because we’re going to Mars,” he said, describing how future human lunar missions will test technologies and operations needed for later missions to Mars.


‘We better watch out’: NASA boss sounds alarm on Chinese moon ambitions

The race to the moon between the United States and China is getting tighter and the next two years could determine who gains the upper hand.

So says NASA Administrator Bill Nelson, who warns that Beijing could establish a foothold and try to dominate the most resource-rich locations on the lunar surface — or even keep the U.S. out.

“It is a fact: we’re in a space race,” the former Florida senator and astronaut said in an interview. “And it is true that we better watch out that they don’t get to a place on the moon under the guise of scientific research. And it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they say, ‘Keep out, we’re here, this is our territory.’”

He cited an Earthly example in the South China Sea, where the Chinese military has established bases on contested islands. “If you doubt that, look at what they did with the Spratly Islands.”


Not Only South China Sea, NASA Says Beijing Could Claim Ownership Of Moon If It Wins The New ‘Space Race’

He further stated that the US should watch out that Beijing doesn’t get to a place on the moon under the premise of conducting a scientific study, and it is not beyond the horizon of possibilities that they say, “Keep out, we’re here, this is our land.”

Nelson continued by bringing up China’s aggressive behavior in the South China Sea, where the Chinese government frequently asserts its sovereignty over territories that belong to other nations.


'We're in a space race.' NASA chief says US 'better watch out' for China's moon goals

NASA Administrator Bill Nelson claims that the U.S. is in a space race with China which could see Beijing attempt to make territorial claims to parts of the moon.

Both China and the United States have lofty goals for lunar exploration and colonization. Both the U.S. and China have major lunar ambitions, with NASA working on its Artemis program to return astronauts to the moon, while China aims to send its own crews to the moon before the end of the decade and build a lunar base in the 2030s. Both powers are considering landing in some of the same areas near the lunar south pole.

"It is a fact: we're in a space race," the NASA administrator told Politico in an interview published Jan. 1. "And it is true that we better watch out that they don't get to a place on the moon under the guise of scientific research. And it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they say, 'Keep out, we're here, this is our territory.'"


China has said they plan to be on the Moon by 2030. NASA's current schedule is for Artemis III to land on the Moon is December 2025 (A year and a half from now). Neil deGrasse Tyson was on "CNN This Morning" recently and said:

"We have rejuvenated our Lunar space program right around the time when China says that's what they want to do. So, who we kidding? If we're just going to say 'Oh we're just doing it because it's time to do it again'. No, there are forces operating out there that rival a little bit, what we felt back in the space race with the Soviet Union."

Neil deGrasse Tyson says this Chinese move is putting pressure on NASA


There has been a long standing debate about whether we should go to Mars or the Moon first. That debate is now over. We are going to the Moon. NASA has been working on the Artemis program for some time now, as well as the Gateway, and many other Moon projects. However, since Bill Nelson's testimony, it is now official, the West is in a space race with China to get to the Moon first. Here is a YouTube video that explains the Artemis program and how we will return to the Moon:

How We Are Going to the Moon
5 min 31 sec

wECeVva.jpg

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#1114 2023-06-10 22:19:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Steve Stewart,

Thank you for your post.  I will study it and get back to you perhaps tomorrow.

I guess I could comment a bit tonight.  I would hesitate to interfere with careful stepping being done by persons at NASA.  Thay are not dumb.  In the past there has been some frustration at the long dead space that followed the Apollo program.  But without the activities of some in NASA, it appears to me that we might not have SpaceX and some of the others.

I was told in a class at school a long time ago that power flip-flops from east<>west on a time scale repetition.  China had vast ships up to about the time that the Europeans began to venture out.  We should not hold them in contempt.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/a … explorers/

I believe that the supposed era of Columbus is at its end.  But do not consider North America to be the same of the line of cities of "Western" expansion.  Those being, in my opinion, Dublin, London, Paris, Rome, Athens, Cairo, and two others> I will not name.

We of North America and also the India can still function rather well in this time period.

All three of us are expending and expanding in power in this new major era, but by my calculations, of shorter phases, China is in temporary decline.  Again, no contempt.  These things come and go for everyone.  Just not at the same time necessarily.

My feeling is that we have to be sure that they understand that sharing is needed.  It may be that they are not hard to convince, perhaps they already think so.

The point is that we should not make ourselves contemptable by being lazy and incompetent.

I follow the articles of Peter Zeihan, and see some merit in them, but we must remember that China is to some degree an alien culture to that of Rome.  Rome has had the powerful hand for about 500 years in the world.  We cannot assume that we can read China as we would read Rome.

So, if we think China may fail for doing things that we fear to do, it may be that they are a different animal.  Maybe they can get away with some things other than that which is within our bubble of understanding.

However, Socialism was used to rupture the European Empires, and the USA sometimes helped.  Should China come as China then that can be good.  If China comes to build itself that is good.  But if they come to again with the socialists, try to break the American nation and those who are friends and family, then things might get more rugged.

There are two poles on the Moon, and also, if you follow Peter Zeihan we have quite a few levers on this planet to make life miserable for them if they make life miserable for us in space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 09:54:15)


Done.

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#1115 2023-06-11 10:00:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

When I said that there are two poles on the Moon, I did not intend to say that two entities from Earth could take possession of one of them each.  I intended to indicate that there is a considerable amount of elbow room available.

I do not favor the UN as the main arbiter.  It is too prone to slaver impulses.  Too many free rider wanna-be's.

The notion that you are born on this planet and then automatically every able bodied and responsible person has to raise you like you are a helpless child.  I don't care for that.

But shared effort, responsibility, and positive outcomes are to be desired in this case, at least in my opinion.

Those who can do work on the Moon and other places should have by far, the greater voices than those who demand tribute while giving no value added contribution to the efforts.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 10:11:29)


Done.

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#1116 2023-06-11 10:12:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Should you wish to continue we can Steve, but I am now moving on to another item.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dujr3DRkpDU
Quote:

Understanding Tesla's Heat Pump System

I found the presenter in the above video to be excellent in being able to keep my limited attention span in focus more than is usually possible.
The subject materials are really good in my opinion.

I am going to appropriate from this topic to some degree as well in this path now: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10510  Quote:

"Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Limestone-based Thermal Battery"

I will return to their "Hot Side Batch Process" later, but will flip to a "Cold Side Batch Process" earlier.

Do you remember boxes?  Probably no so much.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebox
Quote:

An icebox (also called a cold closet) is a compact non-mechanical refrigerator which was a common early-twentieth-century kitchen appliance before the development of safely powered refrigeration devices. Before the development of electric refrigerators, iceboxes were referred to by the public as "refrigerators". Only after the invention of the modern electric refrigerator did early non-electric refrigerators become known as iceboxes.[1] The terms ice box and refrigerator were used interchangeably in advertising as long ago as 1848.[2]

So, if buildings are going to be environmentally controlled with heat pumps, which source from various things, why not have ice delivery as one such source?  The melt water could be potable or just sewered.

Now, if you are going to consider doing the Polar Night Energy thing or some other heat sink, why not make ice in the summer and push the extracted heat into the sand?

While we may think of district level chilled water in piping,  maybe we can have district batch distribution as a method.  Use the icy side to pool buildings and store the heat into heat sinks.

The Hot Side is simply a sort of a reversal, making "Hot Blocks" of some kind and batch delivering them to buildings heat pump systems, storing the cold into sand.

Some places this might be workable.  Might fit into populated areas where continental climate dominates with cold/cool winters and Hot/warm summers.  Typically good for agriculture and having some reasonable amount of water.

But we need to not squish people particularly children, and not damage property.  This relates to how we handle car traffic.

------

I have been considering the desire to extract heat from solar panels to put to a use.  Installations on home roofs make that harder.  Installing in free space on a frame cools the panels but does not capture the heat.

Using an 'A' frame or Tetrahedron frame may allow some tricks I might like.

Pause.............

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 10:36:54)


Done.

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#1117 2023-06-11 10:34:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,111

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re #1116

Thank you for the link to the presentation on automobile cabin heaters, and the advantages of the heat pump.

In your previous discussion with Steve Steward, I came away from the exchange unable to report what the discussion was about.

You said something, Steve said something, and then you said two things back and then closed the discussion.

The lesson Steve might take from this experience is never to post in one of your topics. 

Most of us have learned that lesson long ago, but each new person (or returning person) will have to go through the learning process.

(th)

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#1118 2023-06-11 10:43:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I hope I did not disappoint either you or Steve.  I though my response was correctly pointed, sad that it might not be so.  We must be very careful about meddling in space related geopolitical issues.  I may have even gone further than I should have.  I enjoyed Steves post.  I do not mind participation, but I am the sort that I am.  Not particularly normal.

Done


Done.

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#1119 2023-06-11 10:45:21

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing...............From post #1116:

For this shape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote: 280px-Tetrahedron.jpg

If this is a shell, we may put a combination of solar panels and windows on the two green faces, facing southeast and southwest.
On the brown face we might put anti-solar panels.  (Might).

So, I don't want to excessively restrict options with a particular definition at this point.  But one option would be to suck heated air off of the inside surface of the sun facing solar panels, and place it to the anti-solar cells.  We might put a heat sink between the two mentioned parts of the process.  Polar Night Energy offers a possible heat sink.

Alternately we might 3D print a giant heat sink inside this frame.  In some cases the heat sink would even hold up the frame.  Low bulk materials would be desired.

Adobe like materials with reinforcement materials inside?  You already have a "Wet" barrier on the three upper faces, but you may need special efforts to keep the wet from the ground from infiltrating.  It depends on location, I think.

But if you want to glue it together with some plastic goop, I guess that is an option.

Now the heat sink fins will be so large that you can have rooms/chambers inside the heat sink.

The Martian soils may be somewhat compatible with this set of notions.  And then this giant heat sink is also a radiation shielding.

If you have place cables inside the heat sink you may anchor the shell to the heat sink, or also you may weight down the outside of the frame.  Where you might have windows you may have gardens overhead, while you may be down below lower down in the fins of the heat sink.

For the Moon we might use sintered blocks to build a heat sink.

Back to Earth, we can test models of this.  It should be much easier on Earth.

I have for now mostly considered air as the heat transfer fluid between faces and a heat sink.  Heat pumps can be interposed into the situation.  It depends on desire.  The environment inside these enclosures are not intended to be comfortable for humans year around.  It is to be more an energy machine.  But you could build them as both types if you wanted.  But if you want easy comfort inside, then you have to compromise energy utility.  But, you can have many of these and some one way and some another way.

As I have said, I also like 'A' frames, and we could do square based pyramids as well.

But in some places, it might be considered to put a big pile of ice inside of some of them as similar to olden days with barns.

In some cases where you have a giant heat sink, you might ventilate with the outside at particular times.  On a cold night perhaps.  Then the cold naturally cools the sun facing solar panels and gives better efficiency.

While air can be a primary fluid of interactions, the Tesla Heat pump suggests that you can grab heat from individual heated items or similarly from cold items.  So then you might even have solar panels cooled with a liquid fluid on the back sides.  So, then you get lots of heat, and at times maybe cold out of these panels, not just electricity.  And if you cool the panels, then you may make them more efficient, and perhaps prolong their working life as well.

Too cool and you might attract condensation on them and that could be turned into an asset, but also could give trouble.

I think that is a lot.

Done.

We could consider sub-surface piping for district heating and cooling with these, but we might also consider batch deliveries of hot and cold to heat pump systems on buildings.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 11:32:50)


Done.

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#1120 2023-06-11 17:08:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am going to return to the Mammoth Steppe as I want straw from it.

Review: 

Mammoth Steppe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_steppe

Park:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_Park
Quote:

The primary aim of Pleistocene Park is to recreate the mammoth steppe (ancient taiga/tundra grasslands that were widespread in the region during the last ice age). The key concept is that animals, rather than climate, maintained that ecosystem. Reintroducing large herbivores to Siberia would then initiate a positive feedback loop promoting the reestablishment of grassland ecosystems. This argument is the basis for rewilding Pleistocene Park's landscape with megafauna that were previously abundant in the area, as evidenced by the fossil record.[8][9][11]

I don't think we can wait for Mammoths to do the hard work.  I think we want robots for it.

Wood from these areas will likely be low quality but might be suitable to incorporate into Adobe Structure.

Grasslands created might likewise be harvested by robots.  The grass also going into Adobe structure.

And so this will be Carbon Capture that helps to build housing and solar storage devices, Heat Sinks.

In modifying the Taiga, fire brakes can be created, converted to grasslands.  The albedo of grasslands will be more cooling to the climate than would be Taiga.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo
Albedo of green grass is .25
Albedo of fresh snow is .80

https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index … pic=2359.0
Quote:

I gathered this small list from various sources, so there may be few duplicates or even contradictions. But i think it's nice to have such list handy. Feel free to contribute to this list.

ALBEDO:

New asphalt, 0.04 - 0.05
Black acrylic paint, 0.05
Aged asphalt, 0.1 - 0.12
Conifer Forest, 0.08 - 0.15
Bare soil, 0.17
Deciduous trees, 0.15 - 0.18
"White" asphalt shingle, 0.2
Green grass, 0.25
Aged concrete, 0.2 - 0.3
Desert sand, 0.4
New concrete (traditional), 0.4 - 0.55
Ocean ice, 0.5 - 0.7
New concrete with white portland cement, 0.7 - 0.8
White acrylic paint, 0.8
Fresh snow, 0.8 - 0.9
Water, 0.03 - 1.0

Old/melting snow  0.40 - 0.80
Tundra 0.2

Soil (Dark/Wet) 0.05
Soil (Light/Grey) 0.4
Sand 0.15 - 0.45
Ice (Sea) 0.3 - 0.45
Ice (Glacier) 0.2 - 0.4

white asphalt shingle - 0.2
galvanized steel - 0.24
terra cota tile - 0.28
tar & gravel - 0.33

magnesium oxide - 0.96 [D]
alabaster - 0.92 [D]
polished silver - 0.88-0.93 (S)
white gypsum - 0.85 [D]
fresh snow - 0.75-0.78 [M]
mirror - 0.72-0.85 (S)
matte silver - 0.7 [D-S]
polished aluminum - 0.65-0.75 (S)
polished chrome - 0.6-0.7 (S)
matte aluminum - 0.55-0.6 [D-S]
white paper sheet - 0.6-0.7 [D-S]
melting snow (clean) - 0.6-0.62 [M]
matte chrome - 0.5 [D-S]
plaster - 0.4-0.45 [D]
natural silk fabric - 0.35-0.55 [M]
batten (fresh wood) - 0.35-0.42 [D-S]
face skin - 0.25-0.35 [M]
white dry sand - 0.24-0.32 [D]
yellow clay - 0.16 [D]
batten (old, weathered) 0.12-0.16 [D-S]
white wet sand - 0,11-0.2 [D]
dry asphalt - 0.1-0.18 [M]
black soil (dry) - 0.07-0.08 [D]
wet asphalt - 0.06-0.08 [D-S]
summer foliage - 0.09-0.12 [D-S]
conifer - 0.08-0.12 [D & D-S]
autumn foliage - 0.15-0.3 [D-S]
black soil (wet) - 0.02-0.05 [D-S]
black velvet - 0.01-0.03 [D]

D - diffuse
S - specular
M - mixed
Logged
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/ho … nd-climate

I think that dry grass is a bit more reflective than green grass.  Hard to get a number.

Anyway, restored Mammoth Steppe converted from Taiga, will have a much higher albedo than Conifer forests.
Grassland: ~.25 to .80.  Conifer Forest ~0.08-0.12

Those are likely "Ballpark numbers".

OK, so you sequester Carbon by extracting biomaterials and shipping them to a place where they could be used in Adobe structures.
If you are a sort of "Green", then you shipping trucks burn Ammonia, or have batteries.

Now you have these open areas and you have a reflective field.  So, you could build a Structure at those locations to provide power to groom the fields, and hopefully to provide excess power for humans.

Grooming the fields could involve removal of grass by robots, modifying the snow thickness.  Stomping down the snow to make cold go into the ground like animals might have naturally done.

So, this may also keep Carbon sequestered, by preserving the permafrost.

In continuing to remove grass, it will be necessary to fertilize the fields.

I don't have much patience for people who come from lala land who cannot deal with this necessity.

If you say the planet is overheating, you have to fix the problem in ways that do not increase human suffering.

Or maybe you are a jerk.................lala.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 17:52:54)


Done.

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#1121 2023-06-11 19:14:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Apparently, the world's hottest heat pump: https://www.sintef.no/en/latest-news/20 … %20neutral.  Quote:

Developing the world’s ‘hottest’ heat pump ever

Up to 180 degrees C it seems.  Now that might be OK to store energy in Adobe.  Getting rather hot though.  I guess the wood and grass will not destructively distill into Carbon.

What I might want though is to daisy chain their heat pump to an ice making machines warm/hot output.  While I might want to heat up Adobe, I might also want to make a pile of ice.  Perhaps two different buildings one with the Adobe and one with the ice.

But these would be two different components in a complex process.  I also want to extract heat from the solar panels when they are hot.

So, though you might have district heating, in piping, you might augment air conditioning with deliveries of ice.'

It needs work.  But Tesla's heat pump did not appear overnight either.

Keep in mind also that these buildings, particularly if they have a Adobe heat exchanger inside of them may have a windmill above to also provide power.

But enough for this for now.


Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-11 19:23:19)


Done.

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#1122 2023-06-12 20:07:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess I want to expand on the "Adobe Heat Sink" coupled to a "Over Shell".

For the Moment my focus is on Mars.

This again: https://www.industrytap.com/martian-soi … ngredients.  Quote:

They discovered that Mars soil can be compressed into bricks stronger than even steel-reinforced concrete.  Scientists found the way Martian soil reacts to being put under pressure, and one can craft bricks from the soil with the pressure equivalent of a hammer blow, without the need for ovens or any extra ingredients.

So, it may be that additives are going to be explored to improve the result, but the result already shows promise.

Such a possible heat sink could be composed of parallel walls of Pseudo Adobe.

Heat Sink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink
Image Quote: 440px-Heat_sink_control_volume.png

The walls don't necessarily have to be cubic rectangular in shape.  And you could punch a hole though a series of them so passage would be possible though a set of parallel walls.

I would consider having the green faces as solar panels and the brown one as window glazes.

Heliostats "Behind" the shape would be needed to sine reflected sunlight into the device.

The green faces could have radiation protection under the solar panels.

So, then hard radiation from the sun could be reduces.  Only some GCR and some secondary radiation would be of major significance as a radiation problem.

I would be very happy to have members suggestions for alternatives or to give criticisms as well.

Done.



Good foundations will be needed, icy permafrost might need to remove/mine out and dry regolith used to fill the resulting hole.

Now you can put an "Over Shell" over the heat sink.

The "Over Shell" can be a combination of transparencies, Solar Panels, Anti-Solar Panels, Other.

It might not be pressurized, but it would be desired that it block dust from entering the enclosed space.  I might prefer that the sunshine cold not directly enter into the VOID spaces of the heat sink, but would likely put solar panels there.  However, on the poleward side, I might want to use exterior heliostats to convey light into the VOID spaces.

In this minimal case I would suggest using terrarium farming.  Canisters with crops in them could be set into the VOIDs between the heat sink fins.  To plant and harvest they would be moved to a chamber which would be suited for that action.  Robots and automation would likely be very involved.

If you want to pressurize the "Over Shell", then you need to do more.  You could use exterior counterweights for that or could imbed rebar or cables in the Pseudo Adobe, to use to anchor the "Over Shell".

Thats a good start, I think.

The "Over Shell" could be of many shapes, and I would tend to think that the Pseudo Adobe heat sink made for them would be form fitted.

This shape is one to consider: : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote: 280px-Tetrahedron.jpg

Last edited by Void (2023-06-13 21:56:45)


Done.

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#1123 2023-06-13 11:16:44

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I believe that I have displayed this video elsewhere some time ago: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ge … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Get 4X The Power From Your Solar Panels! - TI Sunday
YouTube750.7K viewsDec 12, 2021

As a sort of demonstration I think the video has a lot of useful information.

I think that solar energy and heat pumps are in a good place in a "S" curve to keep accumulating improvements over time.

Heliostat systems typically are for thermal results only, either heat or to drive a heat engine, and typically do not involve solar panels or heat pumps.  I feel that there is some room for improvements in that regard.

Using Heliostats improperly with solar panels will have costs.  The cost of the effort, and the possible damage to the solar panels long term and even short term.  But with Propper regulation and the possible use of heat pumps to draw heat off of the solar panels it may become possible to make the effort worthwhile.

Particularly on Mars, where I think it will be a long time before there is ever an excess of useable energy.  But also, on Earth and other worlds.

Worldwide, forms of Adobe are used in many locations, under other names, and so there may be some useful discovery to gain from those examples/methods.



With Mars as an example, you might want something like Tesla Bot to clean the heliostat mirrors periodically.  Also, you may want Tesla bot to make seasonal changes to the positions of the mirrors.  It could even be that Tesla Bot would adjust such mirrors continuously in small period changes.  Of course if you have the actuators for Tesla Bot, you could give degrees of freedom to each Heliostat to do some of it themselves.  Tesla Bot might be able to do some of the repairs required.  Tesla Bot might do other work inside an enclosure at night.

I think the morality of making Tesla Bot do endless work will depend on how sentient it is and if it feels distress.  It is more likely that the Hive Mind collective of many Tesla Bots would develop to that level, and it seems reasonable to me that it would not have to have feelings of distress, but if it could feel, it might actually like to do activities.  Time will tell.

I do have it in mind that Heat Pumps could be used to push heat into heat sinks composed of Pseudo Adobe, tanks of water, and perhaps sand as in Polar Night Energy.  https://polarnightenergy.fi/

I do wonder about the use of Anti-Solar Cells on Mars and maybe some places on Earth.  For Mars, with such intensely cold nights might the preform well by rejecting heat from a heat sink to the skies?

I am hoping that in some cases Adobe or Martian Pseudo Adobe, can be used in large part as the supporting structure for a "Over Shell".

A possible augmentation of structure might be I-Beams placed periodically across the structure to help hold the "Over Shell" in place against  a differential pressure where the internal pressure is higher than that of the exterior on Mars.  In reality I would want Delta-Beams with regolith fill inside them.  A triangle cross section.  Then the ends could be anchored somehow.  But also, if you had cables or rebar embedded in the Pseudo Adobe, you might use anchor of tensile strength to hold the beams in place.

A caution needs to be given, in order to use Adobe or Martian Pseudo Adobe, you have to solve the problems that are the reasons why Adobe is used in the American Southwest and not the other parts of the country.

The "Over Shell" will help, I think.  Then you have to be concerned about foundations which may wick water up or may frost heave.  And of course, you need a suitable material for the Adobe, or Martian Pseudo Adobe.  Earthquakes are not good for Adobe.  On Mars it may not be much of a problem.

Heliostats will not be expected to suffer hail or high wind forces either.

Adobe (Bricks not software smile )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe
Quote:

Distribution
Buildings made of sun-dried earth are common throughout the world (Middle East, Western Asia, North Africa, West Africa, South America, southwestern North America, Southwestern and Eastern Europe.)[5] Adobe had been in use by indigenous peoples of the Americas in the Southwestern United States, Mesoamerica, and the Andes for several thousand years.[6] Puebloan peoples built their adobe structures with handsful or basketsful of adobe, until the Spanish introduced them to making bricks. Adobe bricks were used in Spain from the Late Bronze and Iron Ages (eighth century BCE onwards).[7] Its wide use can be attributed to its simplicity of design and manufacture, and economics.[8]

Moving to new technology, such as 3D printing and possible additives, it might be that the material used with an "Over Shell" and proper foundation methods could be used in additional areas.

Done.

So, for those who like Nuclear of some kind or other, fine, but I think we are far from having too much energy either on Earth or Mars or the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-13 12:08:26)


Done.

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#1124 2023-06-13 13:22:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing, but more on the cooler side of things:

This video is on a bit on the tedious side but from my view worth viewing if you have the time: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Revolutio … A0&PC=U531  Quote:

Revolutionary Paint: How to Make Surfaces Stay Cool in the Sun Tech

Looking for a cleaning fluid for use on Mars to clean solar and radiator surfaces:

Query: "freezing point of a mox of Hydrogen Peroxide and water"  A little typo there.
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=freezing+ … A0&PC=U531

Specific Response: https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dos … %20%C2%B0C.

Quote:

-50 °C
In the hydrogen peroxide - water system, the freezing point of each component is depressed by the addition of the other. Mixtures of hydrogen peroxide and water with a fraction of hydrogen peroxide between 45 and 60% exhibit a freezing point below -50 °C.

Potentially explosive I believe. But maybe we don't need as strong a mix.

Anti-Solar Panels: "Anti Solar Panels"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Anti+Sola … 68ed9ec2ea


https://medium.com/the-treatise/anti-so … ight%20sky.
Quote:

An anti-Solar Panel is a device that can generate electricity during the night by making use of the heat difference between the surrounding air and the surface of the device that is cooling itself by emitting infrared radiations towards the night sky.

Quote:

The panels produce about a quarter of what traditional solar panels produce in a day.

I don't know what effect having a hotter hot and a colder cold has on this?????  Of course, hot adobe heat sinks and cold Martian nights and winters come to mind.

Another article on it: https://thehill.com/changing-america/su … %20a%20day.

So, 25% during a Martian night or winter or dust storm may be of great value.  Nuclear would be welcome as well in such times, but this technology might be used to reject its heat to the universe as well.

Other ways to store heat, (Or cold), can be tanks or reservoirs of water.

So, that looks interesting for Mars, and I don't know maybe for some situations on Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-13 13:43:34)


Done.

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#1125 2023-06-13 21:38:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Nuclear is nice for startup on Mars.  But my understanding at this time is it will be a while before the fuels needed can be mined and processed on Mars.  So, I am presuming that the startup reactors will be donors from Earth.

Today I ran into this interesting notion about a type of Thorium reactor: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 54#p210754
Quote:

I thought I would put this here.  I am not very informed bout nuclear, but it sounds good.

The part I like most is that they claim to be able to burn up old nuclear waste products and make the result much less a problem.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=En … M%3DHDRSC4
Quote:

Energy Future Unveiled! THORIUM Molten Salt Reactors
YouTube2.8K views2 days agoby Copenhagen Atomics

I am an observer; I do not claim to know.

Done

From that video, it appears that the amount of Thorium needed for one human lifetime is not that much mass, so perhaps for a while Starships could bring Thorium to Mars from Earth.  The cost of enough Thorium for 1 humans energy needs for a lifetime is said to be $100.00.  Which seems rather cheap, if true.

It was not expected by me that Uranium and Thorium would be less prevalent on Mars than Earth, but if true, it may be a hard start to obtain nuclear fuels on Mars for some time.

I am still a fan of solar, especially for Mars.  But reactors could make the start much easier and safer.

The idea of using Aerogel to warm up Mars, is not as silly as I first thought: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/want-t … could-help  Quote:

Aerogel is a Styrofoam-like solid that is 99% air, making it extremely light. It’s adept at preventing the transfer of heat as well, making it an excellent insulator; in fact, it's been used for that purpose on all of NASA's Mars rovers. Moreover, aerogel is translucent, allowing visible light to pass through while blocking ultraviolet light's harmful radiation. Most aerogel is made from silica, the same material found in glass.

In an experiment conducted by lead author Robin Wordsworth of Harvard, 2-3 centimeters of silica aerogel allowed light from a lamp tuned to simulate Martian sunlight to heat the surface beneath it by up to 150 degrees Fahrenheit (65 degrees Celsius) — enough to raise temperatures on the Martian surface and melt water ice.

If Aerogel were used, I think it would have to be encapsulated in something to keep dirt and moisture out.

But their calculations sustain what I have thought for a long time.  There is plenty of light coming to Mars, it is just that the existing environment lets the heat of it leak out into space too easily and too quickly.

So, yes I am back to solar devices similar to what I have been talking about previously but in this case to melt ponds, lakes, and seas.

Now consider this again:

This shape is one to consider: : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote: 280px-Tetrahedron.jpg

But now make it into a raft that can float on water and ice.  Even give it a transparent poly film bottom.

The two green faces can face the equator, the brown face a pole.

You may place Aluminum foil on the ground in front of the two green faces, to deflect/reflect more light onto the green faces.  On the green faces can be solar panels.  Should be panels get too warm then a heat pump method can cool them down.  The heat can be shunted down into hot water tanks in the water below.

The brown face may be fed reflected sunshine from heliostats that will be to the north or south of the brown face, depending on what hemisphere you would be having it in.  The mirrors should avoid reflecting UV light but reflect visible light into the windows of the brown face.

So, then light that plants can grow in.  Very likely the light will pass though a very clear ice layer under the structure, on top of liquid water.

Of course these are thing similar to other I have promoted before.

But the point is this device would gather electric power, gather heat, liquify bodies of water, and promote the plants doing photosynthesis.

I think that's not bad at all.

Done

Also, it is possible that Uranium will dissolve into these bodies of water from the wetted regolith, and might be recovered with some effort.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-15 14:03:28)


Done.

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