Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-05-26 20:38:37

So, now if you are going to propel a ship with a mass driver then you must have a electrical power source.

So, then on the same ship you may accommodate plasma bubble solar wind drive, and also perhaps Argon Electric propulsion.

This same on-board electric power system could be used to synthesize propellants from water ice and dry ice for instance.

A ship with long term and comprehensive life support could use gravitational passes and the Oberth Effect.

The inner solar system and the asteroid belt could be accessed, but I think that perhaps Titan can be considered.

You need Nuclear on that world of course. But the idea of wood has interested me for Titan. Could you make platforms on stilts. And on those platforms' large inflatable domes.

It is a notion. It is not easy to find a substantial Nitrogen dominated atmosphere.

So, particularly if fusion becomes big, Titan is quite a deal.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-26 20:45:46)

Void · 2023-05-29 09:56:36

So, I would like to be the Lazy Man that a boss puts on a job so see if an easier way to do the job can be found. In that way, hard efforts can then be diverted to other tasks that may need doing.

I am not knocking the idea of looking into Mass Drivers for the Moon and Mars but would like to think about if that is the best way to accomplish what things are wanted or are to be wanted.

I am very pleased with the direction NASA is currently taking. To stimulate two legs or arms, to reach towards the Moon and then perhaps Mars. One is Hydro-lox the other Metha-lox.

As far as mass to the Moon, I anticipate some level of Saturation. Most materials needed for the Lunar Surface can be gotten from the Moon, or perhaps substitutions for those not so available. That is, in the beginning big masses carried more by the Starship could boot-strap Lunar productive capabilities to where it will be much less needed due to the development of local production.

At that point Starship may still make Lunar runs but will no longer be needed for brute force for moving bulk down to the Moon. But will it be practical to move Oxygen to locations from the Moon, and by what methods? And may other sources be found? One possibility might be to pluck Oxygen and perhaps Nitrogen from the upper atmosphere of Earth.

Another could be to get it from Near Terrestrial Asteroids. (Near Earth Maybe). I am posing the question, not so much the answers. Inventions and future structure of human societies may change the answers to such questions.

An example of that is robots, perhaps similar to Tesla Bot (Optimus), where they might supply amplified labor, and yet need far less Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen than a human population.

Another example is Starship itself. It may become a reasonable cost to lift Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen to orbit from Earth, if not other worlds. Previously the idea of resources from Asteroids was you wanted the Water and perhaps some rare elements. You certainly did not want to move Iron from them, and you did not want the stony asteroids.

But Stony Asteroids appear to be the greater number of Near Terrestrial Asteroids, and they certainly hold Oxygen, and many desired bulk minerals. Also, they may as well have precious elements and even a bit of water. Phobos and Deimos may also fall into that category.

So, while thinking about extracting materials from the Moon, it may make sense to have a look at getting them from smaller objects in the solar system as an alternative.

I am not sure, but propulsion methods including Oxygen Mass Drivers, Magnetic Solar Wind Propulsion, and Photon Sails, may suggest that largely robotic expeditions could bring those from a point 'A' to a point 'B', for purposes valuable to human interests.

Building stuff on the Moon may lead to an excess of Oxygen as a waste material though, so it may be sensible to extract Oxygen from the Moon but get solid materials from the Asteroids. So, solid materials from 'A' to a preferred location 'B'.

I don't think we can answer yet, as it is very probable the desires and capabilities are going to shift a lot over the next 50 years.

Just things to think about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-29 11:07:14)

Void · 2023-05-30 11:09:44

Nothing Earth Shaking, just this query: "Getting Oxygen from the Moon"

Without the quotes, I get this general response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Getting+O … d910b84a8b

There are many ideas about Lunar Oxygen, here is one: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-s … 0for%20use.
Quote:

Helios’ process, called molten regolith electrolysis and tested in lunar-like conditions, can melt the lunar soil at 1,600 degrees Celsius and then, through electrolysis, creates oxygen that is stored for use.

I cannot contribute much to that process, but I will re-mention that I feel that Lunar Starship offers some interesting permissions that are harder to get for other major sized worlds.

I understand that the immediately rendered version of Starship will have crew accommodations and also two elevators.
That fits into current needs, but I want to emphasize landing legs and the utility of putting the major part of cargo into them and also leaving them behind on the Moon.

So, an obvious thing to do is to make the landing legs massive and of materials that can be repurposed on the Moon and are of materials in short supply on the Moon. Another thing is to put most additional cargo as attached to the legs assembly. Get rid of the elevators, and the crew accommodations. Perhaps even get rid of the internal cargo/crew compartments.

You may also attach dump-bags of materials to the legs to be dropped prior to landing. Explosive charges might do. Again these are to be of materials that are to be wanted, and that can survive an impact of that type and still be of use.

That would allow you to reduce the landing hover power you required to not crash and would allow the force of rocket plumes to be reduced.

The legs assembly being large it is then a good supply of semi-processed materials, or might allow future ships without legs to land on it. That is not likely to be more silly than landing on a launch tower on Earth.

For landing of Starships, it is expected that better hover capabilities would be utilized than for Falcon 9.

Such a ship might have 3 propellant tanks. On its flight Earth>Moon two would hold a fuel. One for sure would-be Methane. On its trip Moon>Earth two would hold Oxygen. The ship would take off from the Moon leaving the landing legs and cargo delivered to the Moon behind.

An aerobrake maneuver could utilize fins and thrusters, and propellants as coolants to get into a suitable fueling orbit, where Oxygen cargo would also be offloaded.

Just a fun possible fact, such a ship might be able to go SSTO, not having legs or cargo on it. Perhaps also it could be stretched.

I am not qualified to say that this set of notions will be of profit, but I have that idea in my mind that it could be.

Of course, it does not yet include additional means of propulsion such as solar sailing and mass driver, tethers, Electric Rockets, but it eventually might.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-30 11:42:49)

Void · 2023-05-31 09:51:48

Continuing with the prior post I want to comment on this:

An aerobrake maneuver could utilize fins and thrusters, and propellants as coolants to get into a suitable fueling orbit, where Oxygen cargo would also be offloaded.

Fins and motors for air braking into orbit would not travel with the ship to the Moona surface. They would be unclipped prior to a Lunar Landing and would then be re-attached for the trip back to Earth Orbits.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-31 09:52:07)

Void · 2023-05-31 09:55:10

In particular connection to the two prior posts, I have this this morning:

About the Tesla Bot, Optimus:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ra … M%3DHDRSC4

The Tesla Space, How SpaceX & NASA Plan To Establish The First Moon Base!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAbjAkXmLXE

I have my own opinions about the future and they be taken, modified, or rejected as other people might like.

In the Cargo/Propellant sort of Starship I recently suggested I do not include human crew as a normal option. I do include the notion of these ships having to land on platforms made of landing legs. A valid concern voiced on this site is that you cannot count on making it to the landing pad, and may have to do rough service landings. But not in this case, as humans would not be passengers except for emergencies.

The delivered platforms should be made as much as possible of materials hard to get on the Moon. But more platforms of a similar sort could be built of Lunar Materials. So you could have some emergency landing locations as well.

The story is not yet told of the possible utility of having the Moon as a preferred location of habitation. For now the idea would be a small population of humans and likely a much larger population of robots.

Starships are going to be OK for first human landings and for delivering cargo, but I think that for Antarctic level populations a smaller ship may do for the transfer of crews and special cargo.

Terran-R might be suitable. Or some other smaller vehicle.

So for this a Starship might still be involved, used as a carrier ship. If you had a Starship, not intended to land on the Moon, it could carry the Terran-R (Or other smaller ship), into Lunar Orbit. The Terran-R could then land and return to Lunar Orbit, and the two could head back to Earth. They would then each air brake individually in the manner desired.

The Terran-R might be built to handle rough service landings if needed.

The propellant starship could be integrated into this, where it could receive fuels from the Carrier Starship, and would donate Lunar Oxygen to it.

In this case, the Propellant Starship would not leave the Moons gravity well at all eventually the propellant starship would crash, as it could be expected to wear out. And so the crash site would become a salvage site for the materials.

As for the "Leggs" assembly for the Propellant Lunar Starship, those could be carried to Lunar Orbit by the Carrier Starship. They would not normally be reused to an orbit, rather they may be for Propellant Lunar Starships to land on again, or could be scrapped for their materials.

As for lithobraking methods, such legs could have that type of cargo attached to them.

A Propellant Lunar Starship might have little peg-legs like we saw for the first prototypes, but they would need to land on a rugged lags stand of the type I have been discussing.

A Propellant Lunar Starship also may intentionally do Lithobraking materials drops even if it did not have the large landing legs assembly attached. It would drop a certain distance above its landing altitude and would then move horizontally to a landing legs platform.

If ships would be able to refill with Lunar Oxygen, then their departure from Earth Orbit to the Moon, would not have to be burdened with as much of a propellant load.

Done

And by the way, then Mars bound Ships would be able to refill with Lunar Oxygen in Lunar Orbit. But I am not suggesting that the first missions to Mars need to wait for this option.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-31 10:27:31)

Void · 2023-05-31 14:06:20

But then again there is the possibility of supplemental means of propulsion.

One Example would be Argon Electric, especially of Argon can be gotten in quantity on the Moon.

Oxygen Mass Drivers are a concept, but I am not aware of any existing test devices, but that may be an option as well.

Solar Sailing?

I guess the point is that to transfer fuels to the Moon or Oxygen from the Moon, such propulsive systems may be useful to make it more profitable. After all fuel depots moved about can take their time, unlike ships with crews. So, a greater emphasis on efficiency might be chosen as method.

Done.

Void · 2023-05-31 19:44:18

Using a previously landed set of legs with a platform, the assembly might also have a stabilizing device like an Octagrabber: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comment … now_about/

That is used for Falcon 9 1st stage recovery on sea platforms.

But really, when a Starship lands with such a leg assembly, it may land on tilted ground so you would want the rocket to be stabilized by the same connection to the legs assembly that held the legs assembly to the rocket. However, once the rocket leaves leaving the legs assembly behind, then a "Ground Crew" could jack up and brace the legs assembly to be level in the gravity field of the Moon, and capable of receiving another rocket which would not have legs.

Such a rocket might simply have peg legs. The legs assembly might have a shock absorber function as well.

The ship if it had side engines as sometimes depicted could use those engines to maintain the vertical for the ship if it was a rough landing. But perhaps some kind of a grabber device would be wanted on the leg's assembly.

Should a ship land and tip over and/or explode, then I guess you have some scrap materials. And if the legs assembly were purposely made of hard to get materials on the Moon then it to might be recycled.

Litho-braked materials and legs materials for instance may be of plastic to some degree. Plastics would have uses on the Moon, such as binder for structures made of regolith, as a possible example.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-31 19:52:42)

Void · 2023-05-31 19:56:08

I am also thinking about your Mars vision. I think you should look into Vast space.

Critics say that Mars is worse than Antarctica. I don't agree, but they say it.

So, in orbit you may project very nice warm habitats as part of the effort.

We can anticipate the intentions of the nay sayers. They wish to occupy high positions and to keep subordinates beneath them. Guess what their vision of your proper place in the scheme of things should be.

Yes, they needs to be important, you needs to be a peasant.

Done.

Void · 2023-06-01 08:43:23

I have been lately primarily focused in the inner solar system and even more so the Earth<>Moon.

It seems convenient to divert attention outwards for at least one post, and Isaac Arthur has provided such a view.

It can be useful to have 'Like>Proportion' evaluations to get a measurement of reality. Even when crude, this helps for trying to configure concepts of reality, and methods for it.

Isaac Arthur, Colonizing the Kuiper Belt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQu7C-7Y6LM

I guess I will watch it again, it is not the worst thing I might do.

Something about the "Solar Moth" he mentions: https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4916f16658a9e

He also mentions Methane and Ammonia, being more available as you go outwards in the solar system. And that it both true and important, as far as I know. But Venus may offer both the Carbon and Nitrogen, and even the Hydrogen.

A bet at this point is that there is no life in the clouds of Venus. So, in my reality that gives greater permission to use the resources of Venus.

It seems that Venus loses atmosphere to the solar wind, but still has a lot of it. It is said to be very "Dry" but the Sulfuric Acid contains Hydrogen. One way to reduce the amount of Sulfuric Acid in the clouds of Venus is to harvest the Hydrogen from the Sulfuric Acid.

The source of the Hydrogen is unclear. It may be from the interior of the Planet, or from the Solar Wind, or the last remnants of Seas and Oceans. In any case it is a resource. It may be finite if from Seas and Oceans or replenished if from the planet itself or from the Solar Wind.

The planet may host floating and orbital habitations.

Hydrogen would not be the only resource to take from Venus. Oxygen, Carbon, and Nitrogen would be available. So, along with Hydrogen it would be the bulk of chemicals for organics and other hydrocarbons.

The quantity of Nitrogen is many times more than that of the Earth's atmosphere. So, many space habitats could be filled from the atmosphere of Venus.

As for rocky materials for building space habitats, that might come from asteroids, our Moon, Mercury, and perhaps Venus itself.

The use of rockets for Venus would be benefited by a ~.9 gravity. The overly think atmosphere might be compensated for, by having launch platforms high in the sky. For the ships to "Land", they could enter the atmosphere and then sink into it until they float with a lifting gas, perhaps Nitrogen.

Sulfuric Acid would be bad for the rockets but perhaps a method to tolerate it could be found.

If the bulk of Hydrogen in the atmosphere of Venus comes from the solar wind, then a created global magnetic field may amplify that, provided it is leaky enough to allow the Hydrogen in on the sun facing side and stop it from leaving on the leeward side form the sun.

The inner planets of course are most suited for solar powered transport, so it might be very attractive. But it would not prevent activities from occurring in the outer solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 09:43:26)

Void · 2023-06-01 09:53:25

Returning to Lunar Starships and in general ships for the Moon, it seems apparent to me that over time the ships will either be for crew or for bulk cargo. Crewed ships will center around safety, and cargo ships will center around economic utility.

It is not yet clear if the Moon will become a place of large population. We may get some indicators for that in the next 10 years or so, as medical information becomes available.

This about Blue Origin is a surprise: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/ … earth.html

But Vast Space will perhaps explore it as well.

Japan has ideas it seems: https://phys.org/news/2022-07-artificia … giant.html
https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/j … 20explains.

At some point it may be that it makes sense to put large populations on the Moon, provided health and resources can be obtained in, on, or imported to the Moon.

Fire Fountains on the Moon: https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/fire-f … 0champagne.
Quote:

Using the latest ultra-sensitive versions of analytical instruments known as mass spectrometers, Saal and his team discovered the Moon beads contained water, sulfur, chlorine and fluorine at the same concentrations as volcanic beads found on Earth.

And there is at least a little amount of Carbon as well.

So, what if you mined these old fire fountains? Dig down and down. Make caves and perhaps discover reserves of useful materials?

The answer to that also is for the future perhaps. But it may also be possible to import materials to the Moon economically.

So, a big question is could healthy habitations be built in large amounts on the Moon itself?

The first needed answer to that would be how much exposure to Lunar Gravity is healthy, and then if you spend some of you time in higher simulated gravity, can you have a reasonably healthy life on the Moon.

Making spin gravity devices in orbit requires lifting lots of mass through gravity wells, but working on the Moons surface and interior require much less of that.

Some things to discover, I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 10:17:43)

Void · 2023-06-01 10:50:37

Decided to have some Coffee so more blab time available.

Was thinking that if inhabiting the Moon, high g places could be underground, or maybe near surface. Similar for low g.

It "May Be" that places for low g would be the activities of laying down or sitting. This seems to me to where the least accumulation of damage would occur from low g. So then if you are upright/standing, then higher g may be healthier.

Then it occurred to me that if you had a robotic chair, it might be able to apply stress to bone. Of course this could be annoying or dangerous if not done correctly, but may help as per bone loss. And similar might be done for sleep, but might need getting used to for sure.

Such may also be useful for us old persons, and particularly women. (That's reality as I know it, don't woke me).

It is possible that muscle could be stimulated with electricity, but that may be annoying.

But maybe Neuralink could cycle muscles, in a way that was not too annoying.

These ideas might contribute to greater health in lower gravity.

I had previously thought of something like this for space travelers, where they might exercise while unconscious of their flesh body, but they might be conscious in a virtual realty of computers, or in an avatar mechanical body.

Imagine you had a body for swimming in ice moon oceans, as your avatar body.

Yes getting way out there. But the bone stress chair could be looked into.

I often sit in compression boots at my gym, and they squeeze your legs, and you can read while that is going on. It is usually not very annoying.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 11:02:34)

Void · 2023-06-01 11:26:12

More Coffee it seems. Its Japan again, about the Moon: https://www.realclearscience.com/articl … on%20Earth.
Quote:

Could We Turn the Moon Into a Giant Power Plant?
.By Roy Mathews

I have been aware of this interest of Japan for a while. Equatorial Rings is interesting. While you could beam power to Earth, you could beam it to spacecraft as well.

Quote:

The Japan-based Shimizu Corporation has proposed doing this by building a ring of solar panels on the Moon’s equator and beaming the collected energy back to Earth-based energy conversion plants. The project, Luna Ring, would place solar panels and a power transmission cable on the moon, but the majority of infrastructure could be on Earth. Moon-based solar power could also be transported to small, cheap satellites in Earth’s orbit for transportation to stations on Earth’s surface. Microwaves can penetrate cloud cover with little energy loss, so this cheaper version of Moon solar power could be made available for countries and companies on a budget.

So, that is fine, but I am starting to think about Oxygen Mass Driver propulsion using beamed power from the Moon. This may allow the satisfaction of an "Energy Density" per ship mass that is favorable to space transport.

Blue Origin has this: https://www.pcmag.com/news/blue-origins … h%2C%20too.

Quote:

Jeff Bezos' space company Blue Origin has figured out how to manufacture solar panels on the Moon that only require materials already available on the lunar surface.
The technology to achieve this is called Blue Alchemist(Opens in a new window), and it has the potential to directly benefit Earth, too.

Yes beamed power can be a danger to Earth, but so are nuclear weapons and other nasty things that somehow we hold in restraints, (So Far).

So, with such a resource, would it be that hard to procure the quantity of organic chemicals to keep a suitable population of humans happy on the Moon? And of course they may have 1000 robots for 1 human.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 11:35:47)

Void · 2023-06-01 12:21:15

So, then there is no reason to not go to Mars and set up a base, but the development of the Moon could accelerate the development of Mars and other worlds in later times.

A silly truth seems to exist where it may make more sense to build on the Moon and less in space orbits. But then for Mars, it makes more sense to build in space orbit, and at least for a time less on the surface of Mars.

The moon does not have asteroid sized objects near it. Mars does.

For the Moon it makes most sense at this time to start at the poles and then extend to the equator.

For Mars at this time, it make most sense to do the reverse. To start near the equator, and then to build seas at the poles, eventually seas with some open water even.

What I am getting at is it all comes as one package. There is no idiot binary conflict that makes sense. If you can do one world, you Likely can do many worlds.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 12:26:18)

Void · 2023-06-01 19:52:58

I certainly cannot validate this articles content as true, but it is certainly interesting.

Does higher pressure perhaps make body processes easier?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 6dbe&ei=43

Scientist living at the bottom of the Atlantic said he has de-aged
Story by Stacy Liberatore For Dailymail.com • 8h ago
A scientist claims he has increased his lifespan by 20 percent after living 93 days underwater.
Joseph Dituri, 55, a retired Naval officer, has been living inside a 100-square-foot pod at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean for 93 days, researching how a pressurized environment impacts the human body.
The mission was also designed to beat the world record for living underwater - the previous stay was 73 days.
Dituri told DailyMail.com that doctors conducted tests on his body to see how it changed from March to June, including tests that measure telomeres, compounds at the end of chromosomes that shorten with age.
He claims they are now 20 percent longer, and he has up to 10 times more stem cells than when he first moved into the underwater pod in March.
Dituri experiences 60 to 66 percent deep REM sleep every night, his inflammatory markers have been cut by half and his cholesterol has dropped by 72 points, he claims.
The scientist did not provide details of how his telomeres were measured, but there are testing services that measure their length from blood samples.
And most services take about two weeks to provide results.

I have been having a rethink about the Moon lately. Can it be possible that Earth's gravitation is not ideal for humans?

Certainly we don't know yet.

Of course if humans were going to live on the Moon, we would expect them to live at lower pressures not higher.

But I think that some thinking about the Moon is now archaic. From the 60's and 70's.

I recall back then that it was stated that spin gravity machines could not be used on worlds except the very smallest.
Isaac Arthur has suggested that they are possible on various worlds. Apparently, people in Japan think it could be done on the Moon. I suppose if you have magnetic levitation trains you might start to think that way.

Well way back when it was speculated that the Moons gravity would be insufficient for human health maintenance. And that may prove true, but if you can have access to higher spin gravity, then it might be OK.

Now, I have suggested that rather than only processing lose regolith on the Moon, digging deeper into the remnants of the fire fountains, may yield useful materials in significant quantities.

Hollowing out these depths into vaults may also create a location for spin gravity machines. And if it is true that high pressure helps human health, (????? ), then what else is needed is Nitrogen to dilute the Oxygen, and perhaps Argon might work as well. Argon may be had on the Moon, perhaps.

So then the psychology about the Moon may change.

All of this has to be tested and confirmed, but if somehow true, then rather than taking things from the Moon and people living elsewhere, the Moon might be the place to be. Organic chemicals might be imported to the Moon.

Various doners would exist. Even, perhaps the Earth. Maybe Venus, Asteroids, and maybe Mars.

The thought has been to get water from the Moon for propellants. I guess a degree of that is OK, but what if you also built large green places for plants. It is thought that the polar deposits contain CO and CO2. Then the only thing needed in bulk is Nitrogen. There actually are Nitrogen compounds in the Lunar soil, but to make high pressure chambers for people underground you would likely need to import a considerable amount of it.

But the Moon has things to export, such as power, Oxygen, maybe Iron and other metals.

Historically the idea of importing metals from the Moon to places is from the view of the use of Mass Drivers of the sort that shoot it to orbit.

Oxygen can be promoted as a monopropellant, if you use something like Mass Drivers of another sort.

Power beaming from the Moon to Earth, also allows power beaming to spacecraft, which may use Oxygen as a propellant shot out of a Mass Driver Engine.

So, yes, we need pilot bases on both the Moon and Mars, to discover what the potentials are. We also need Vast Space to assist in these discoveries.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-01 20:24:51)

Void · 2023-06-02 10:20:48

The question of Beam powered propulsion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powe … efficiency.
Quote:

Electric propulsion
Some proposed spacecraft propulsion mechanisms use electrically powered spacecraft propulsion, in which electrical energy is used by an electrically powered rocket engine, such as an ion thruster or plasma propulsion engine. Usually these schemes assume either solar panels, or an on-board reactor. However, both power sources are heavy.
Beamed propulsion in the form of laser can be used to send power to a photovoltaic panel, for Laser electric propulsion. In this system, if high intensity is incident on the solar array, careful design of the panels is necessary to avoid a fall-off of the conversion efficiency due to heating effects. John Brophy has analyzed transmission of laser power to a photovoltaic array powering a high-efficiency electric propulsion system as a means of accomplishing high delta-V missions such as an interstellar precursor mission in a NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts project.[4]
A microwave beam could be used to send power to a rectenna, for microwave electric propulsion. Microwave broadcast power has been practically demonstrated several times (e.g. Goldstone, California in 1974), rectennas are potentially lightweight and can handle high power at high conversion efficiency. However, rectennas tend to need to be very large for a significant amount of power to be captured.

Such power systems might occur "Down-The-Road", sometime in the future.

However, if we did the solar rings around the equator of the Moon as Japan interests seem to be interested in, you might not have to beam power further than say a rather low Lunar orbit. This might facilitate a number of propulsion methods that can use electric power.

I really don't desire to drill down too deep into the weeds, which more exotic methods, but an Oxygen Mass Driver with tethers comes to mind. I am also not against the old notion of projecting loads to a "L4" or "L5" location, and those could include Oxygen bound in solid materials.

A produce that might be wanted for deployment to the Moon perhaps could be Ammonia. I am contemplating some type of Lithobraking for it. If it would be rendered as a solid ice, perhaps a fine sand of it or snowflake of it, then dropped into a shadowed crater after some reduction of speed, perhaps it could be imported in that way.

It might be distributed over a small time period. Air Braking might be a factor as you could generate a small very temporary cushion of vapors of Ammonia, and Moon Dust. The first arrival impacting the Moon vaporizing, and rebounding from the surface, then the later arrivals materials having a more cushioned impact. Freezing point of Ammonia is -77.73 °C. Not impossible to do.

So, some craters may be just cold enough to allow this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent … wed_crater
Quote:

Permanently shadowed regions have a stable surface temperature. On the Moon, the temperature hovers somewhere at or below 50 Kelvin.[20] Another temperatures estimate is 25 K to 70 K.[21] The low temperatures make the regions desirable locations for future infrared telescopes.[22][23]

It looks marginal, I admit. Maybe some other Nitrogen containing compound than Ammonia?

But indeed, just Starships delivering Ammonia may be a sensible beginning.

Discovery of human health and Lunar Gravity simulations of "Vast Space" could be very important.

As I have indicated, if you could simply bring Nitrogen to habitats built on and inside the Moon, that may be much less work than trying to lift massive amounts of materials from the Moon to build space habitats in orbit.

So, depending on results of testing, a fork in the path may be decided on.

Medical tricks that might enhance the health of people on the Moon could be very important.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-02 10:50:50)

tahanson43206 · 2023-06-02 15:06:45

For Void re #1090

Thanks for adding a discussion of Beam Power propulsion to your topic.

I ran a quick check, and we do NOT have a topic set up in Interplanetary Transportation. Your post would seem to be good fit for such a topic, if you were willing to create one.

Your comparison of laser and microwave power delivery was interesting (to me for sure!) and hopefully it might be interesting to others as well.

A mission to a distant part of the Solar System might be sustained with nothing but solar panels, if a beam of suitable photons could be delivered to the probe with accuracy.

(th)

Void · 2023-06-02 17:00:06

It is a good thing that you have such an interest. (th)

I will work in that direction at your request. But a bad night's sleep. There is not that much pain, but I am receding. A bit of thought may be blessed by a night's rest.

For now, if I feel the energy I will continue here a bit, but hope tomorrow I can do as you request.

For now the major scope of my interest is the Moon, but it could be expanded.

Query Phrase: "particle beams in space propulsion"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=particle+ … 44e071dd15

Some way out thinking there. As I see it the Moon as considered by Japanese people with rings of solar power around it's equator, could support some kind of power projections which may have values. Unlike Earth and Mars, no clouds are expected. Such a power system could double to project power to Earth also at times when needed.

Later...........

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-02 17:03:34)

tahanson43206 · 2023-06-02 17:17:29

For Void re suggestion of a focus on Beamed Power Propulsion ...

Your posts over a number of years cover such a wide range, and often extend so deep into space, that a reader might understandably miss some of the specific concentrations buried in your many general topics.

Should you decide to provide a concentration on Beamed Power Propulsion, it would run along in parallel with your more wide ranging topics, and certainly not detract from them. The creation of a focused topic might permit and perhaps even encourage contributions by others. As you must have noticed, forum members have learned to avoid disrupting the flow of your creativity in your wide ranging topics.

(th)

Void · 2023-06-02 21:44:29

I be glad to do something as you suggest as time allows.

Just now I am doing hunter/gathering. I like to see if I can secure better footing, to be more assured if possible of being close to the correct path(s).

Some materials:

Whats inside the Moon?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wa … M%3DHDRSC4
https://moon.nasa.gov/inside-and-out/water-on-the-moon/
Quote:
Revisiting Apollo Samples (2008)
Photo of astronaut on the Moon digging into the surface.
Apollo 17 astronaut Eugene Cernan preparing to collect samples. Credit: NASA
Capitalizing on major advances in technology since the Apollo era, researchers from Brown University revisited the Apollo samples. They found hydrogen inside tiny beads of volcanic glass. Since no volcanoes are erupting on the Moon today, the discovery presented evidence that water had existed in the Moon when the volcanoes erupted in the Moon’s ancient past. Additionally, the preserved hydrogen provided clues to the origins of lunar water: if it emerged from erupting volcanoes, it must have come from within the Moon. The discovery suggested that water was a part of the Moon since its early existence – and perhaps since it first formed.
Underground water for Earth:
https://www.theverge.com/2014/6/14/5808 … nderground

It is not guaranteed that the Moon has an underground ocean, but it starts to seem possible.

Others more competent have suggested things like mass drivers and tethers to lift materials off of the Moon, and I have struggled to seek that sort of thing as well.

But I can feel pretty confident that the L5 society and the notion of shooting Lunar materials off to L5 could work to some degree, even if other methods do not.

Then if you have beamed power of some sort, you may try various methods to redistribute mass up and down in the gravity wells of our binary world, Earth/Luna. But I am also seeking methods to bring in large amounts of Nitrogen and perhaps other things as well so that would be "Down Mass" to the Moon.

I am fond of the idea of an Oxygen Mass Driver that ejects Oxygen as reaction mass, but other possibilities exist such as Solar Wind Magnetic Bubble propulsion and perhaps the boiling of a liquid if you could get one suitable in quantity.

As I have mentioned though Luna might then be linked to a joined power grid, so the solar power collection would not be just for shipping materials.

But again, I am tired. It is an exciting notion though.

Isaac Arthur and others have things to say about beamed propulsion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-02 21:55:12)

Void · 2023-06-03 06:19:11

This is about the Moon having a significant atmosphere way back when:

The Moon Had a Thick Atmosphere Billions of Years Ago, NASA Study Fnds
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+Moon+ … db&pc=U531

So, that is something to be reminded of about the Moon. What we see on the surface now does not completely say everything about the subsurface of the Moon now. The exterior of the Earth and Moon being different, it seems possible that the interiors are more similar.

Query: "How deep could you dig on this moon": https://yourwisdominfo.com/how-deep-can … -the-moon/ Quote of an opinion:

How deep can you dig on the moon?
As the deepest mine on Earth is apparently limited by a temperature of 66C, it follows that the deepest ‘traditional’ mine on the Moon should be ~14km. That Wikipedia article is sourced from Wired’s 2012 article Digging for Riches in the World’s Deepest Gold Mine.

Pause..............

Well, I suppose this is a mix of good and bad per humans and space development: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/na … 1c66&ei=14 Quote:

NASA Is At War With China Over Moon Water
Story by TeeJay Small • Yesterday 8:52 PM

I guess I will stand back and try not to make things worse per the above.

The press of course can be careless in what they do with words.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 07:20:50)

Void · 2023-06-03 11:11:50

I have been looking at the Lunar Ring concept, seemingly supported by persons of Japan. I am going to consider modifications of it. As far as beaming power from such a device to spaceships or Earth, for now that is a potential background item. For now I am a bit more interested in establishing infrastructure on the Moon and considering the potentials for a significant population or robots and even Humans on the Moon.

https://www.space.com/23810-moon-luna-b … ansmitters.
Image Quote: Yg5WG8aZwmCLtNNC9oYKSJ-1200-80.jpg.webp
Quote:

This artist's illustration shows the Luna Belt solar power ring station on the moon as envisioned by Japan's Shimizu Corporation. A giant ring of solar arrays around the moon would collect solar power, which would then be beamed to Earth via microwave and laser transmitters. (Image credit: Shimizu Corporation)

I would like to blend this with a German discovery: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/ne … rformance/ Image Quote:
Quote:

New Research Says Vertical Solar Panels Have Improved Performance
BySteve HanleyPublishedJuly 25, 2022

So, if we have bifacial solar panels vertical, lets spread the bottom a bit and keep the tops connected, forming an 'A' frame structure. One side of the "Roof" will point East the other will point west.

The north-south dimensions of the sheds will be very long. As long as the width of the ring.

The sheds will be spaces fairly well from each other, leaving considerable ground between in the East-West dimention.
The Albedo of Lunar soil is nor at as reflective as we might want it to be.
https://www.universetoday.com/19981/moon-albedo/
Quote:

The albedo of the Moon is 0.12. In other words, the Moon reflects back 12% of all the radiation that falls upon it.

To improve on this a reflective material could be put on the ground between the sheds.

Of course there could be a concern of overheating the solar panels, but I am sure that can be calculated properly and also other tricks may emerge. Radiative heat sinks perhaps?

I would like a basement foundation under each of these 'A' frame sheds. I am hoping that microwaving creation of landing pads contemplated could be adapted to the purpose of making a "Basement" for these 'A' frame sheds.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20205010871
Quote:

Microwave Sintering Lunar Landing Pads & Horizontal Infrastructure
Moon to Mars Planetary Autonomous Construction Technology’s (MMPACT) Microwave Structure Construction Capability (MSCC) team is developing the ability to prepare the lunar regolith and densify it into glass-ceramic landing pads and horizontal infrastructure. Microwave energy will be utilized to densify the lunar regolith. Some of the concept of operations, simulant and synthetic minerals, site preparation, design, microwave sintering, testing, & ancillary instrument technical challenges were listed. A current status of the MSCC project is also provided.
Document ID
20205010871

So with that we may have largely enclosed a large volume of vacuum on the Moon. We could want to put walls on the two ends of the very long 'A' frame sheds.

We then want to turn them into somewhat sheltered workshops for robots. Reduced dust, and reduced temperature swings in the interior, and with power storage and/or transmission power throughout the Lunar Day/Night.

There could be East-West roads and power conductors to connect them to each other. The roads might be covered.

Although I did say power lines and that should work out OK, I also reserve the possibility that these structures could beam power to each other.

This might be combined with orbital devices of similar properties perhaps: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20170008159
Quote:

Orbital Space Solar Power Option for a Lunar Village

Using that, it would be possible to encompass the Moon, without having built the full array of the sheds on the ground.

So in the day the sheds might project power to elements in orbit and during the night the orbital elements might project power to the ground based sheds.

This sort of bypasses the Chicken>Egg>Chicken>Egg dilemma.

Over time though, you would fill out the whole ring(s) on the ground.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 11:54:56)

Void · 2023-06-03 20:45:37

If we have these 'A' frame houses for countless robots on the Moon, and reflective materials on the ground between the 'A' frames, that reflective mate3rials could include heliostats. Being motorized, they may shine extra light onto the solar panels of the 'A' frames, or might work together to project focus(s) to orbital positions to enhance power to a orbital device(s).

And there is the possibility of this to project power to the Earth. You also might stimulate rain by heating an ocean a tiny amount. You might, I did not say you should or would. Be nice to have if you suffered an Ice Age though.

Actually, if you could influence cloud cover, you might even cool the Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 20:49:22)

Void · 2023-06-04 09:02:31

Because I am not an aerospace professional, I prefer to keep most of my speculations in locations like this to be more compatible. Like other people it is fun to speculate on the possibility of new things. But I try from time to time to check on what thinking is available on the internet. Then try to get my thinking more aligned with things that might be more professionally generated.

Here is a reference from 2016 about making rockets from Lunar materials:

To explore deep space, an astronaut says we need to build a rocket factory on the moon
Rebecca Harrington, Tech Insider Apr 18, 2016, 1:57 PM CDT

https://www.businessinsider.com/rocket- … the%20moon.
Quote:

Scientists have found silicon, titanium, iron, and oxygen in the lunar soil. All of these elements could be mined and turned into rockets — and rocket fuel.

Hmmm........... I think they could include Aluminum and Calcium as well.
OK, for some reason very hard to obtain what I wanted but this will do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Moon

Lunar surface chemical composition[13]
Compound Formula Composition
Maria Highlands
silica SiO2 45.4% 45.5%
alumina Al2O3 14.9% 24.0%
lime CaO 11.8% 15.9%
iron(II) oxide FeO 14.1% 5.9%
magnesia MgO 9.2% 7.5%
titanium dioxide TiO2 3.9% 0.6%
sodium oxide Na2O 0.6% 0.6%
99.9% 100.0%

The table inside the linked article of course is correctly formatted. The percentages are after the removal of Oxygen I presume which is ~40-45% of the content of regolith, I believe.

Silica, I do not understand much about except it may behave to some degree like Carbon.
OK, I still am ignorant of it but I have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon
There apparently can be Silica Gels, which sounds interesting.

Aluminum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
I know a bit more about it. If you can bypass the oxide layer typically formed on the metal it will burn very quickly I believe.

Melting point 933.47 K (660.32 °C, 1220.58 °F)
Boiling point 2743 K (2470 °C, 4478 °F)

Calcium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium

Melting point 1115 K (842 °C, 1548 °F)
Boiling point 1757 K (1484 °C, 2703 °F)

Calcium, I believe is a very good electrical conductor, but burns easily in Oxygen.

I have been moving along with the notion of binary thermal masses applied to special chemical rockets that might be shot out of a Mass Driver.

I have now considered a solid Oxygen tank. That is a tank of tolerant materials that Oxygen Ice might be stored in. This would be the cold side of the binary thermal device. I am hoping that it could survive the massive g forces which might be used in a load shot out of a magnetic Mass Driver. I am hoping that paramagnets in the Oxygen ice would assist in accelerating the load. Having Oxygen Ice could provide a time delay before the tank heated up so much that boil off was a problem.

I am hoping to be able to have a hot side perhaps including a ceramic container with channels in it that could have liquid metals in it such as Aluminum and Calcium, which I hope can be made to react inductively with the magnetic fields of the Mass Driver.

I have the notion to shoot these to an "L" location, maybe "L5".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L5_Society
Quote:

L5 Society
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The original L5 Society logo.
The L5 Society was founded in 1975 by Carolyn Meinel and Keith Henson to promote the space colony ideas of Gerard K. O'Neill.[1]
In 1987, the L5 Society merged with the National Space Institute to form the National Space Society.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_ … s_in_Space
I think that I recall that bags of regolith should slow enough as the would rise out of the Lunar gravity field, to be caught into a spinning receiver.

For Binary Thermal Loads, perhaps the hot end would be the nose/nozzle of the device and the Oxygen reservoir would trail. So, upon intercept of the "L5" pocket a small amount of thrust would slow it down, and make it easier to receive.

The binary temperature would allow a thermal-electric device to provide a small amount of power and I suppose some type of computer and communication device might be included.

Back in the day, the idea of robot sheds with countless robots maybe some like Tesla Bot, to mass produce these would have been beyond fiction. But I think we may be close.

I have puzzled over other methods, but I like this one as it has some anchors in the previous works of professionals that have gone before us.

So that would be weird. Regolith might go in one end of a long 'A' frame shed, and like a auto production line rockets would come out the other end, and then be shot out of a Mass Driver. That would be something to see. Pardon me but I think I know of someone who has almost everything it would take to do it.

Bread, fish, water?

And then rendering the projected devices in "L5", materials could be moved about by using reflected sunlight from the Moon, from complexes of Heliostats.

Installations on the surface of the Moon could provide concentrations of light suitable to the power of this: https://www.universetoday.com/148241/wa … sun-first/
I think that it is concentrated inertia projection.

And of course Oxygen Mass Drivers could power ships as well.

So then we have the means to land things like Nitrogen and Carbon.

I think it could work out.

Why not have good things?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-04 10:09:42)

Void · 2023-06-04 21:10:11

I was very surprised to find compatible materials in the Lunar-pedia about Mass Drivers.
https://lunarpedia.org/w/Mass_Drivers

Surprisingly they move away from shooting to the "L5", but rather to a low Lunar orbits and short tethers with robot arms and nets.

Quote:

What Will Work
Instead a mass driver should launch 10 kilogram loads as fast as can be managed. This should be once a minute or better. The payloads should go into equatorial orbit about Luna. Each payload should be about a 10.2 kilogram spaceship containing a supposed 120 gram pressurized oxygen flash bulb rocket. The payload is spin stabilized and the rocket is fired by a timer at apolune to circularize the orbit. The payloads orbit at a 111 minute orbit at 30 kilometers altitude. The catcher satelite orbits at 127 kilometers altitude once every 120 minutes. A set of nets is attached to computer controlled radar guided arms. These operate from a structure depended by tether from the main body of the catcher satellite and sweep up the entire payload orbit once in twenty-four hours, sending the payloads by conveyor up the tether. For launch to a 30 kilometer orbit launch velocity is about 7.2 meters per second more than circular orbit velocity at the surface which combined is about 1685.7 meters per second.(The launch velocity requirement was worked out as an example in Orbital Dynamics.) The circularizing impulse at 30 kilometers altitude is about 7.1 meters per second. So the work to be done by the flash bulb rocket is rather small. An alternative rocket would use magnesium and/or aluminum powder as fuel and sodium superoxide (NaO2) as an oxidizer. 4Mg + 8NaO2 ==> 4MgO + 4Na2O + 4O2 The reaction yields heat and excess oxygen with the performance characteristics to be determined by experimentation. The planned reaction mass is hot oxygen.
If the design of any obit circularization rocket results in dust ejected from the rocket nozzle, it would be ejected in the direction opposite orbital motion and the dust would crash into the lunar surface and be of no further concern. The problem will be in choosing the cargo launching techniques that are most economical.

Well that it wild and wooly, but I really like it.

I am very familiar with the physical nature of a 10 kg calibration weight; I am not entirely a hillbilly.

The Circular Mass Driver really looks interesting. I imagine one might go nicely into certain craters.

Circular Mass Driver
Consider here a circular mass driver or mass accelerator which would keep power requirements low by spreading the acceleration out over many laps of a circular track. The payload could be about 200 kilograms. If there are passengers or cargo available every 110 minutes for rendezvous with a catcher satelite, it can keep constantly busy. Suitability for passenger service requires a low radial acceleration, 30 meters per second squared (about 3 g's) will do. This in turn requires a large diameter (about 120 miles). The shape of the device is like a very regular volcanic mountain peak with gently sloping sides and a circular crater on top. The accelerator track would run along the vertical wall of the circular crater. When the payload and carrier reach orbital velocity (1680 meters per second), the payload is dropped tangentially outward over the top of the wall. A counter weight may be required on the carrier near the base of the wall to ballance the carrier. Since the diameter of the track is 120 miles, there is about one and two thirds miles bulge of the curvature of Luna interfering with line of sight communication from one side of the track to the other. The plane of the circular track makes a 3.2 degree angle with the surface of Luna. (It's like a slice off of the top of Luna one and two thirds miles thick at the Pole.) Payloads launched tangentialy from the track, however, deviate from that plane by curving downward toward Luna in an orbital path. This makes it more likely than otherwise that a payload would smash into a mountain peak. So the accelerator track should be built up on fill as high as practical and care should be taken in choosing the exact dirrection of launch. The circular accelerator should be centered at the North pole while the catcher satelite would orbit about once per 110 minutes at an inclination of about 86.8 degrees. So it would pass over one or another spot on the circular track with every orbit as Luna rotates under the orbit. It could catch a payload whenever a mountain peak did not interfere. Troublesome peaks could be razed.
The above specifications would require 43 kilowatts average power put constantly into payloads plus power to accelerate the carrier and allow for the losses in magnetic levitation. Unfortunately, the carrier can not constantly accelerate because it must come to a stop to be ready to pick up the next payload. Two tracks, the second with 10 meters less radius and 2 meters more altitude than the first would allow one track to accelerate while the other uses regenerative braking.
As long as we consider developments that must be many years in the future, there is a capability of adding carriers in a train as there is increased available power and need for cargo tonnage. The whole 370 mile circumference of the accelerator could be filled with one train of carriers. The payloads could be connected by rope and the whole train of payloads launched from one point on the circumference into one orbit as 5 minutes and 53 seconds go by.

Keep in mind that my idea about the Moon and other non-Mars activities is that they will accelerate the development of Mars.

For US Hillbillies, the masses then are sent to an orbit ~18.6411358 miles up. So, the catcher Satellite is ~78.9141414 above the Moons average surface.

I am going to believe that at first the catcher Satellites will be discrete objects, but if they system were to work, then why not eventually a ring?

Catching loads tossed up will slow the ring of satellites or the ring down. But methods to add speed to it should exist.

The Momentum of Sunlight may do OK. Heliostats below the orbit may concentrate the light 10x or more above the natural for the Photon Sails.

The solar wind might be tapped. If the magnetic bubbles are expanded in the part of the ring passing away from the sun, and contracted when passing towards the sun, thrust might be achieved in that way by tapping the momentum of the plasma matter from the sun in the solar wind.

Expansion and contraction are another possible amusing method for an actual connected whole ring. The ring closer to the sun and catching reflection from the Moons surface will swell, but when away from the sun a little bit and especially if occulted by the sun will cool and contract. In an amusing way this an analog to a fluid driving a heat engine by transition from a liquid to vapor, but this would be a solid-state heat engine.

Should we wish to we may also make the Moon and Ring into an electromagnetic motor, where we would pulse magnetic fields to adjust the rings spin relative to the Moons surface.

Something like this may work for other worlds as well.

In the case of Venus, some far away time it might be possible to have a ring that skims the atmosphere and scoops it off. Of course, that art is quite deep into a future I don't expect to live into.

That is a nice vision though.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-04 21:32:47)

Void · 2023-06-04 22:09:47

As for robot sheds on the Moon, perhaps 'A' frames with solar panels pointing East and West. Perhaps sintered regolith for a basement.

As they would have a vacuum environment inside of them, I think it would not be hard to keep the temperatures relatively stable day and night. A little bit of insulation in vacuum should go a long way, like a thermos bottle.

It is possible that pressurized human habitats could be inside of them with greater environmental protections all around including from radiation.

Probably power storage and transmission methods included.

I am not sure, but perhaps micrometeor damage to the solar panels may be less???

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-04 22:10:31)

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