Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-12-16 12:09:25

Perhaps not the best thing to consider, but I want to see what can be done with soft stone, to expand on it a bit if possible.

This article can be helpful: https://marspedia.org/Layers_on_Mars
Quote:

Layers on Mars
Jump to: navigation, search
Mars topography (MOLA dataset) HiRes (1).jpg
Article written by Jim Secosky. Jim is a retired science teacher who has used the Hubble Space Telescope, the Mars Global Surveyor, and HiRISE.
When the pictures from Mariner 9 were examined, scientists thought that with all the craters, Mars must be like the moon. Billions of years of bombardment would have caused the crust to be just broken up rocks they thought. However, this view did not hold up. Mars Global Surveyor from the beginning showed vast areas of layered rocks; layered showed up to 10 km deep in the Valles Marineris. Today, we believe layered is planet-wide. [1] [2]

I am fairly sure that it would not be desired to make a cone cavity 10 km deep, but it might be possible in places.

The cone shape, depending on the pitch of the cone, and the characteristics of the rock might not need supports.

This would be a cone within a cone:

'A' is an entrance from the surface which would probably have some type of device over it.

The interior of the void in the rock could be filled with water or air of some kind.

If air, then I would suppose that the pitch is too steep. If it were made with a shallower pitch, then supports to hold up the ceiling might be desired.

In theory, the cone within a cone could go down quite deep. Maybe 10 km? Probably not desired, but imaginable.

If water inside, then in part a thermal reservoir possible.

And this showed up around summertime in 2022:
Artificial photosynthesis:
https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/
https://futurism.com/the-byte/plants-da … osynthesis
https://www.inverse.com/innovation/horizons-27-06-2022
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … 0to%20grow.

Algae, yeast, and mushrooms apparently can be grown, without light, and even some other plants show a response.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-16 21:26:40)

Calliban · 2022-12-16 12:29:02

Void,
It occurs to me that if we had an underground mine with impermeable walls, we could fill it with water and use it as a giant steam drum. Solar thermal power could charge it during the summer and it could provide steam all year round. The ice covered ponds could function as radiator panels, then they could produce fish year round.
http://www.thermalfluidscentral.org/enc … ies:_Water

On Earth, this arrangement would be dangerous, because precipitation introduces ground water that could lead to steam explosion. But Mars appears to lack precipitation. At a depth of 150m, pressure on Mars would be 15bar. The saturation temperature of water atvthis pressure is 200°C. Specific heat of water between 150-200°C, is about 4.5KJ/Kg.K. Average density is 900kg/m3. Each cubic metre of heated water would store 50kWh of heat. So a mine with 10 million m3 of excavated volume, would store 500 million kWh of heat. Enough to generate 100,000MWh of electricity. Or 23MWe for 6 months.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-16 12:49:13)

Void · 2022-12-16 12:35:18

I very much agree.

While I have been working on low temperature activities, if you can "cut" many of these some of them could possibly hold some higher levels of heat. I guess the limits would be the erosion of the rock by super hot steam.

But even a few hundred degrees would be very useful. The heat is also not only stored in the steam but in the rock as well.

I agree that ice covered bodies of water can be radiators.

And even ice blocks with a hollow tubing radiator in them.

I am also looking in the direction of bonding tubing to recent lava flows in the Cerberus Fossae. Tar bonded to the rock, with tubing, and with a foil bonded on top????

I would like to get the max heat sink.

So, a hydrocarbon heated and through a turbine, and then to cool in lake water, and then even to a large rock face?

Also perhaps put vertical solar panels to shade the rock. But perhaps by the time you have such a steam power engine you don't even want to bother with solar.

And then we have the potential of geothermal at Cerberus Fossae, (We very hope).

It may be possible to impregnate some of the rock with a substance which would make it impermeable.

Also, if a water table develops, then you might be able to contain the steam in the hollow, provided the "Head" of water is sufficiently deep over the cave.

I like the rough notion of 10 mb pressure for each "Foot" (Sorry), of water. So, for 100 degrees C, then 33 feet? But then as the temps go up you need proportionally more and more "Head" of water. Presumably with icy permafrost over that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-16 12:40:34)

Void · 2022-12-16 20:13:57

I wish to continue while noting good content from Calliban for this post elsewhere: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 40#p204140

That is from: "Index» Life support systems» Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars" Others have recently done wonderful posting as well, about things like salt deposits. Steve Stewart, and kdb512 included. Spacenut and (th) are also included.

One thing leads to another: Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 04#p204204

Void: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 10#p204210

But we are also looking into chambers in rocks, which might be habitations and farms, but could also be energy devices.

Originally, I was thinking of metal cones in ice covered reservoirs, weighted down with regolith on top of them. But now I would avoid that expense, rather carve cones in the unbroken rock under the broken regolith. And now I am beginning to think that we might want these on Earth as well, if we have energy sources that are suitable as we now may be seeing. https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/29/ne … ower-ball/

So various types of cones which I will begin to try to develop my own descriptive language for. (I would welcome professional terminology).

And these might also store thermal energy, and/or also be farms, and I suppose weird habitats for humans as well, in some cases.

I think I start by describing the cones. I am going to be vain and describe the hollowed-out portions as the "VOID SPACE" of the conical structure.

My notion which I don't feel entirely secure about would be to convey sunlight into the rather small opening at the top from a set of concentrating mirrors. A solar salt pond method might be used, which can also be similar to "Lake Vanda".
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Lake+Vand … 63b8b44b8f
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:

Efficiency
The energy obtained is in the form of low-grade heat of 70 to 80 °C compared to an assumed 20 °C ambient temperature. According to the second law of thermodynamics (see Carnot-cycle), the maximum theoretical efficiency of a cycle that uses heat from a high temperature reservoir at 80 °C and has a lower temperature of 20 °C is 1−(273+20)/(273+80)=17%. By comparison, a power plant's heat engine delivering high-grade heat at 800 °C would have a maximum theoretical limit of 73% for converting heat into useful work (and thus would be forced to divest as little as 27% in waste heat to the cold temperature reservoir at 20 °C). The low efficiency of solar ponds is usually justified with the argument that the 'collector', being just a plastic-lined pond, might potentially result in a large-scale system that is of lower overall levelised energy cost than a solar concentrating system.

So, it might be possible to hope for such a performance. But it can also be that a situation like this can allow for distillation of water at the top of the apparatus, the growth of photo-microbes a bit further down, and to store temperatures of perhaps 80 degrees C.

But keeping in mind that there will be a water column pressure maybe more than 80 degrees C is possible to store?

Or perhaps we put a water drum at the bottom of this cone and cover it with regolith, and fill it with really hot water or even steam?

The window that will allow the concentrated light into the opening at the top, might get very hot, particularly if you also use transparent aerogel. So this could be a source of high heat for the drum at the bottom. But you could also just have a separate heater unit that might get up to 1300 degrees F ???

You see that I am trying to get it all. The concentrated light could just heat a fluid, but it also contains wavelengths of light that things with chlorophyl can use. So, then this is a source of biomass and Oxygen, and also a thermal reservoir that can run a power plant.

I would also like to stretch the cold side, by tapping into the cold of Mars. I have recently visualized this as being tubing bonded to a rock face, perhaps embedded in a tar like substance. Perhaps a reflective foil with heat exchanger fins incorporated into it. Maybe some kind of shading devices?

The if we borrow from one of the Eavor processes, we might do well. https://www.eavor.com/

Before I finish this section on this cone, I will mention that although the waters inside of the cone will be too salty for large algae, (I think), and vascular plants, "Barges" which could have modified internal environments could be placed in them at an appropriate pressure and temperature level to intercept some of the sunlight.

The tunnel and diving bell to access the interior of the "Cone Pond" would allow access for servicing this.

A break and then I discuss a different cone-in-rock type.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-16 21:16:56)

Void · 2022-12-16 21:22:18

This one has a "Void Space" which is "Sheet Form" between rock faces: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 95#p204195

This could obviously be a thermal reservoir with the fluid of choice within it. I guess I will show it:
This would be a cone within a cone:

With this:

And this showed up around summertime in 2022:
Artificial photosynthesis:
https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/
https://futurism.com/the-byte/plants-da … osynthesis
https://www.inverse.com/innovation/horizons-27-06-2022
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … 0to%20grow.
Algae, yeast, and mushrooms apparently can be grown, without light, and even some other plants show a response.

Farming might be done in the dark for the most part. I favor Mushrooms especially as they are multicellular and might over time be genetically modified to fulfil quite a lot of needs and desires, I would hope.

In a partial recollection of something from Calliban, the "Food", (acetate), manufactured for the farmed life, and then Oxygen provided. Either from Perchlorates, of if water is split, then the Hydrogen used to forge steel, hopefully.

I expect that this farmed life during its metabolic process will have the side effect of heating up the VOID SPACE. Similar to a wet hay pile, I expect. After all, they would be burning acetate in Oxygen in order to build their biomass and run it.

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsreleas … the%20heat. Quote:

Odd as it might seem, wet hay is more likely to lead to a spontaneous-combustion fire than dry hay.”
High-moisture haystacks and bales can catch on fire because they have chemical reactions that build heat. Hay insulates, so the larger the haystack, the less cooling that occurs to offset the heat.

So, this heat could be used as an asset.

If you have a bonded rock face cooler to condense a fluid from a vapor, and then cool the cone farm thus heating the fluid, then run the fluid through an even hotter process, perhaps a cone process, then through a turbine and the vapor back to the condenser.

I think I am right to suppose also that if you had artificial lighting in such a cone void(s), the waste heat would heat the void, but you could recover some of the energy by a process similar to what is in the previous paragraph.

So, I hope I am not wrong to think that it may be possible to increase the energy efficiency of an artificial light farm.

Green plants may also be able to use the acetate also, but probably they need some light. But productivity might be rather high, I hope.

I think that that will do for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-18 10:56:45)

Void · 2022-12-17 11:28:12

I am putting this fusion video here as a place for it here will do.
Fusion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38
This proposed aneutronic fusion reactor apparently is a binary linear mass driver method. I have never seen its type before and find it interesting.

As far as binary thinking, I see it this way: I think many cultures are being sensible, in exercising "Infant" technologies. And it is important to evaluate potentials, but a mode of thinking that says, "Let's have a contest, and we will then know which of the candidate if the golden one so we can drop all the others", is a stupid way to operate, and can only be justified if an economic situation is in dire straits.

If a culture has found itself in dire straits, then it suggests that they should rethink how things have been done.

I regard binary contest to be a poor way to evaluate where energy of any type should be allocated.

The reactor to me has a feel as something that could eventually work, perhaps when they go to larger scale it will work better. But I think even this one may need 50 years, maybe less, but patience might yield a really good tool. It is a complicated device though and everything has to actually work, repeatedly. I was put off by the need for Helium 3, but apparently, they can generate it with a version of the machine.

It is nerd candy, at least.

So, now for Mars, it appears that Fission, Solar, and perhaps Geothermal may be workable. My opinion is that they should be nurtured and exercised. And perhaps some type of Fusion will emerge over long stretches of time.

So, one version of solar which I have been speculating on:

My software is misbehaving so this will have to do:

The "Black Box" entry point and the mirror are only represented, but not particularly described.

And I am actually rather sketchy at this time on exactly what to do. But I will see if I can put forward a starting notion.
I am not at this time thinking of a trough concentration method.

The representation of a primary mirror needs to be capable of tilting away from its present position, if the sun is at a noon day high in the sky. A secondary mirror at 'A' needs to also be capable to receive the focused output of the primary mirror and tilt to deflect the concentrated light though the entrance to the cone cave.

The primary mirror, being a circle can ride on the ground like a wheel and would have attachment to the apparatus at 'A'. So, the wheel turning would be able then to follow the sun and also adjust tilt, to be able to work through the day.

If we were doing this on Mars, and you did not need to pressurize the cone cave, the light path would not travel through a widow. It is possible that that could have some use.

But I intend to have a window. Maybe it is of Alon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride
Perhaps the window can be something else.

The problems for the window could be heat and pressure. However, for the moment I do not intend for a large pressure differential across the window. So, the window perhaps could be relatively thin.

The window is expected to absorb some of the light, and allow the majority of it though, if I understand the nature of it.

This article seems to suit me: http://www.surmet.com/technology/alon-optical-ceramics/

ALON® Optical Ceramic's Key Features
Transparent: High optical transmission (>85%) near-UV to mid-IR wavelengths (0.25 to 4.0 μm)
Crystal clear: Excellent clarity and no inherent birefringence
Durable: Outstanding hardness, scratch resistance and high strength
High quality: Excellent Refractive index homogeneity over large areas
Commercially available: Available in large sizes up to 18x35-in windows as well as in various shapes including hyperhemispherical and hemispherical domes in large quantities..
Robust process: Produced using very robust process with consistently high quality and yields
Enormous Broad Application Potential: Applicable to a wide variety of industries where combination of high transparency and durability are needed. Examples include aerospace, security, defense and semiconductor, Energy, mining and consumer products.
Applications:
ALON Transparent Armor for Helicopters and aircraft ALON Transparent Armor for Helicopters and aircraft
ALON Transparent Armor for Helicopters and aircraftALON Transparent Armor for Helicopters and aircraft

ALON® Optical Ceramic Properties
Composition:
Al23-1/3XO27+XN5-X
Grain Size (typical):
150-250 microns
Structure:
Cubic, Spinel
Density:
3.696 - 3.691 g/cc
Form:
Polycrystalline
Melting Point:
2150°C
Young's Modulus:
323 GPa
Hardness:
1850 kg/mm2 (Knoop Indent, 200g)
Fracture Toughness:
2.0-2.9MPa-m1/2
Flexure Strength:
380-700 MPa
Thermal Conductivity
13 W/mK
Transmission Limits:
0.22 to 6 microns

So possibly the window tolerating "Melting Point: 2150°C", it can be a heating device if you attach some sort of heat exchanger and flow a fluid though it. So, you could get some high temperature fluids out of this when the sun was shining. It might be stored in a special storage device somewhere, perhaps a drum at the bottom of the cone cave.

It is my intent that the higher layers of water in the cone cave will be cooler, the lower layers warmer/hotter.

The water just under 'A' might boil however if you applied a vacuum pump to pull its pressure down below its boiling point. So, then this is a source of distilled water. It may be that the hot window could power the pump. So, the temperature of the brine, just below 'A' could be rather cool, due to evaporative cooling.

So, the concentrated light will spread out by various effects, and be available to drive photosynthesis, if you have a layer of brine with sufficiently temperate temperatures.

And like a solar salt pond we hope to maintain temperatures of perhaps 90 degrees C at the bottom above the hot water tank. This would be heated like a solar salt pond, but also by heat leaking from the high temperature storage tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
The efficiency of that is said to be ~17%

Efficiency
The energy obtained is in the form of low-grade heat of 70 to 80 °C compared to an assumed 20 °C ambient temperature. According to the second law of thermodynamics (see Carnot-cycle), the maximum theoretical efficiency of a cycle that uses heat from a high temperature reservoir at 80 °C and has a lower temperature of 20 °C is 1−(273+20)/(273+80)=17%. By comparison, a power plant's heat engine delivering high-grade heat at 800 °C would have a maximum theoretical limit of 73% for converting heat into useful work (and thus would be forced to divest as little as 27% in waste heat to the cold temperature reservoir at 20 °C). The low efficiency of solar ponds is usually justified with the argument that the 'collector', being just a plastic-lined pond, might potentially result in a large-scale system that is of lower overall levelised energy cost than a solar concentrating system.
Development

But we are also hoping to have a hot water reservoir below the 90 degrees C bottom of the brine stratification.

If we were on Mars, we might get the lower temperature down to 0 degrees C if we are using ice water, and if we can access the -60 degrees C of the regolith average temperature, then I anticipate efficiency to be better.

I hope it works.

For Earth, a large scale of this might help to store seasonal energy, perhaps. Solar and Wind actually.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-17 12:15:49)

Void · 2022-12-17 12:56:46

OK, already a revision. The primary mirror perhaps being round, not then though being used as a mirror. Simply put wheels or rail tracks under it to allow a sun following pivot. A tilt method is also still needed.

Done.

Void · 2022-12-17 19:58:43

I have been thinking about the rock conditions on the various worlds of the solar system, and I am starting to think that Mars may be the best, or at least 2nd best if Earth turns out to be the best.

Icy worlds are not likely to have good rock near the surface at all, but maybe there could be exceptions for some asteroids.

I guess I would define good rocks as likely sedimentary, unless there is a good ore body in hard rock. Mars is not likely to have limestone, but should have sandstone, and apparently does. It seems to have at least one salt dome but should have many. It should have rock formed from volcanic ash.

Some rock would also be deposited by wind and water, with water alterations.

I would like to bring up the volcanic ash rock again.
I believe that these underground cities were dug in rock from volcanic ash, where the water table was low enough to allow it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu … y#Features
It is probable that on Mars the water table if any tends to be low. That could be a good thing.

But the gravity being .38 g, I am going to venture that Mars very likely has the best underground potential in the solar system.

With machinery, digging should be much easier in such rocks.

If this is volcanic rock or ice, either way it may be of value, but if rock then a hard rock.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … ice%20caps.
https://rense.com/general63/froe.htm
https://www.marsdaily.com/news/mars-wat … e-05b.html
Very Good Map Image Quote: https://www.marsdaily.com/images/mars-e … -chart.jpg
Image quote: https://www.marsdaily.com/images/marsex … k-1024.jpg
Even if it is volcanic rock, I have read that it is thought that water may be trapped under it.

It is then in the area of Cerberus Fossae, and it can be noted that there are some craters, so those would have punched through the lava, if it is lava. So that might be an entry to some possible sedimentary deposits under the lava, if it is lava. If ice, well I do like ice sheets especially near the equator.

From post #674:
2) Cerberus Fossae: (Possible Geothermal):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Fossae
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … in_context
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3522004353

From post #664:

These two maps as image quotes from the above are very helpful.
Very Good Map Image Quote: Big Picture: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.48c6dcee931 … ImgRaw&r=0
Very Good Map Image Quote: Drill Down: https://www.dlr.de/content/en/images/20 … normal&v=4
The geothermal region apparently has been pushed up "1 Mile?" by a newer volcanic plume, so it might have been lower when an ocean was there. And so maybe salt domes.
If you could hollow out a salt dome in warm rock, that might be worth something.

I love having good maps.

I did not realize it but you can click on this map to drill down deeper: Quote:

Very Good Map Image Quote: https://www.dlr.de/content/en/images/20 … normal&v=4

So, the thinking is these days that the Pack Ice might be lava, or ice, maybe. If lava, it is thought that there may be water under it, and I speculate that there might be sedimentary rock under the "Pack Ice". And holes have been punched into the "Pack Ice" with craters apparent. And geothermal power might be available. It is near the equator, so we can anticipate better solar prospects.

If the "Pack Ice" is lava, then I would hope to make massive heat rejection devices from it. Dry to the external heat exchangers.

I suggest tar to bond tubing to the rock face. (Of course, cleaning the rock face first). Then with a thick enough layer of "Tar", place finned heat sinks on top. A torch might heat up the heat exchanger so the tar would melt, and you could press the heat exchanger down to bond on it. The shade it with east/west solar panels.

This again: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/ne … rformance/
Picture quote: https://cleantechnica.com/files/2022/07 … panels.jpg

In the night the solar panels might even serve a heat sink service, conducting some cold into the rock.

And cold from the rock might improve the efficiency of the solar panels during the day. Maybe.

Then this sort of heat sink might help with rejecting heat from various thermal energy sources.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-17 20:55:55)

Void · 2022-12-17 21:22:59

I am putting this here, as of course it might be very significant on Earth, but maybe it could be used in space as well, or some modification of it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/t … f1e3bdbaf4

Quote:

These Ultra-Thin Solar Cells Can Be Glued To Any Surface And Produce Incredible Power
Story by Nadeem Sarwar • 13h ago
8 Comments
Ultra thin solar cell panels are being researched at a staggering pace, and the promises are seemingly endless. Now, the folks over at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have developed a new ultra-thin, organic photovoltaic solar cell that can be pasted like a sticker on any surface to generate power. Plus, they are extremely efficient, producing 18 times as much power per kilogram compared to conventional thick film solutions.
Instead of glass, the team used vapor-deposited parylene as the substrate material, which also offers the benefit of being easy to manufacture at a mass scale. For creating the photovoltaic films, the team used a UV curing adhesive to laminate the photovoltaic devices on a layer of Dyneema Composite Fabric, which is extremely light, but quite sturdy. During tests, this flexible and paper-thin solar panel retained over 90% of its efficiency after 500 rolling and unrolling cycles. Interestingly, MIT experts similarly made a solar film light enough to sit above a soap bubble a few years ago.
As per the research paper published in the Small Methods journal, the entire fabric-based solar cell system is just about 50 micron in thickness, less than the average thickness of human hair. When compared against a regular solar cell panel, these experimental photovoltaic cells are roughly a hundred times lighter too, while also surpassing them at power generation. In 2021, experts at German company named Heliatek did a similar experiment by pasting flexible ultrathin organic solar films over a water tank and produced encouraging results.

I am very interested if these can have space applications, as they are Quote:

producing 18 times as much power per kilogram compared to conventional thick film solutions

If they can be made space worthy, then along with Starship, I would expect power satellites to be promoted. I am of course interested in power satellites with synthetic gravity machines as well on big platforms.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-17 21:27:57)

Void · 2022-12-17 22:15:25

Well, I am really goofy tonight.

Let's have a look at combining two items: Liquid Air Battery and Eavor Geothermal.

https://earthbuddies.net/liquid-air-bat … 0it%20work.

https://www.eavor.com/

Now with the drilling technology for Eavor, then drill several heat exchangers.

Into one which would be relatively shallow, put liquid air. I know it will boil, but give this some time, I will get to that.

Drill the Eavor Heat Exchanger for geothermal.

Then drill a similar one for electrothermal storage. It can be shallower than the geothermal one, and so I presume less expensive.

The Eavor working fluid can be Benzine or Propane, I believe, in some cases. I will look a bit at propane: https://upgradedhome.com/can-propane-freeze/
Quote: [

Yes, propane can freeze, but this is highly unlikely to happen. The freezing point of propane is -306 degrees Fahrenheit. No place on earth has ever gotten that cold, even Antarctica. There is no possible way for propane to freeze unless it’s done purposefully, in a lab.

That seems to be (-187.777778 C)

Then temperature of liquid air?
https://thermopedia.com/content/553/#:~ … formations.
Quote:

-191.4°C

So, I would suppose that if you can run Liquid Methane and Liquid Oxygen in a raptor, you could make a heat exchanger that would do the same for liquid air and liquid Propane. And since it does not have to fly, you could put a better safety margin into it.

So, if you have a store of liquid air, then you have a "Super Condensing" process for Eavor to use. It is my notion that liquid air should be easier to produce in a cold place than a warm place. So, hurray for the north, and maybe Antarctica. (Environmental people scream!).

And Mars, by the way.

So could you put liquid air down an Eavor Heat Exchanger, (not the hot ones of course)?

You might make a "Cold Sandwich" out of rock. You would not want to go deep because of geothermal but would not want to be too close to the surface as the Earth's surface is warmer than liquid air. At first you would have a lot of boil off, but later less so as the rock was cooled down.

You would want two types of heat exchangers propane to air. One would be propane to cold boil off air, and one propane to liquid air.

You may also want a rock heat exchanger to store heat from the liquid air process.

And I would like to think of one which might be water based where you would run an electric current through it to store heat, very high heat perhaps. This electricity would be peak power from anything such as solar, wind or other.

If we do something like this on Mars, we would more or less liquify CO2, and put under pressure into a rock heat exchanger. That would leave you with a mixture of the other gasses which would not liquify at those temperatures to use for other purposes.

Then your Eavor system geothermal would use a heat exchanger to cool Propane with liquid CO2. And that might turn a turbine both for the Propane and the gasified CO2.

You could also have the electric heated rock heat exchanger.

So, if the electric rock heat exchanger were the hottest, you would draw geothermal hot propane, (Or whatever), through it to heat it even more. The turbine to spin, then to condense the hydrocarbon fluid using liquid air on Earth or liquid CO2 on Mars.

And in both cases being able to both dump excess electricity into the electric heated rock heat exchanger, and to also draw less from the geothermal when power conditions are otherwise good.

Even nuclear can be included where you might have a steady run on the plant but store excess heat in a rock heat exchanger. Just a thought.

So, I am thinking this might be a good path.

It does reduce the relative worth of the sunbelt to the north, as the cold process is better perhaps where it is cold, and also you might be able to store seasonal energy both hot and cold in rock heat exchangers.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-17 22:42:40)

Void · 2022-12-18 10:50:34

I have really boosted my tilt towards Mars as a primary objective, because of what I think the rocks will be like.

And I think that over time it will be very possible to make surface structures that can be sunny inside, and yet will be rather safety secured in nature.

It is a step down in gravity, and a step towards the asteroid belts, and eventually the Trojans of Jupiter.

As for the gravity problem, if necessary, I anticipate that spin gravity methods will be possible in caves. Elon Musk thinks that the air pressure is low enough on Mars to allow Hyperloop without tunnels, but on the surface.

This would be a cone within a cone:

This could actually have a "Train(s)" at its bottom perimeter, in an evacuated chamber, for added synthetic gravity.

The pyramid inside the cave could be a "Step Pyramid" so you would not tumble down an incline.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=st … HoverTitle

Your elevators might travel an incline.

Supposing green plants would need a minimum of light if given acetate, the cost of lighting might be affordable.

And from the underground pyramid(s), you could have surface sunrooms.

The gravity being low and the atmosphere thin, it might be easy to manufacture "Stuff" to ship off world. Particularly if robotics gets very advanced.

As for the gravity problem, I am guessing that in time medical science will figure out how things like bones and muscle are stimulated and it may become possible to force a "Normal" body structure in a low gravity field. I would certainly be worthwhile for the Martians to figure out how to do that.

But I still allow for orbital habitats, particularly for Phobos and Deimos, but I see now that the subsurface of Mars has a lot to offer.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-18 11:07:08)

Void · 2022-12-18 19:33:49

I am thinking quite a bit about sediments in the large Martian basins. The northern hemisphere, and Hellas in particular.

https://geology.com/stories/13/rocks-on … 0image.%20 Quote:

Sediments on the surface of Mars are a product of millions of years of asteroid impacts and mechanical weathering. They are reworked by the wind today, and in the past, they were moved, deposited, and reworked by flowing water. Image by NASA

I have been thinking about how it may be that the supposed history of Mars rather than a story about a Earth like world dying, rather it is beginning to look like a world developed to be useful to humans.

Deep sediments which are not flooded by a water table looks very good actually.

Of course I keep repeating things, but: https://www.mytouristanbul.com/the-unde … City%3A%20
Quote:

The Underground Cities of Cappadocia!

Image Quote: https://lirp.cdn-website.com/a93a197e/d … -1920w.jpg

The area of Cerberus Fossae, being pushed up is a good thing because before it became volcanic, it probably had been sea floor sediments at some time in the past.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … %20surface.
Because of this, and if it is true that Mars does not have as much water as it once did, we would not have to worry about a new northern sea/ocean flooding cities that might be built there.

But some of us think that a strong terraform of Mars might not be in the interests of humans. Most of the surface of Mars, might end up with enormous networks of caves underground and also pressurized buildings on the surface which can admit sunlight.

As for melting water, I think rather than melt the poles, we might want to use lasers to melt there interiors, releasing water and also creating vaults. And it may be that the sediments under the poles and around them can also host many caves in the rocks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-18 19:57:14)

Void · 2022-12-19 08:40:55

Calliban has been an influence on my thinking.

The idea of making lots of liquid water on the surface Mars, without having a use for it, could "Damage" the atmosphere, by it being absorbed into sediments.

I do think that we should want to evaporate the CO2 in the poles, but not wholesale want to malt the water of the poles.

A cold sea, an ice-covered sea, of massive size may not be that much use. And if it is ice and snow covered, it would reflect light into space.

The blue Mars concept, does not seem to take that into account. If you could pump enough greenhouse gasses into the Martian atmosphere, I suppose that over time, you could produce an ocean/sea(s) in the low spots. This would likely to two things I don't like. 1) Flood low lands, without good reasons, and 2) Probably create a ocean/sea(s) which would likely resemble Antarctica. You might make the ice transparent, but that would be a lot of work. Snows would probably cover pack ice and reflect light away from Mars.

In order for Mars to resemble Earth, you would need 1 bar of CO2 or 2 bar of Nitrogen/Oxygen.
Until then, little hope of keeping water open and blue would likely exist. Most likely you would cool the planet by reflecting light.

So, in my view, we do want to increase the atmospheric pressure, but do not want to melt the polar ice caps.
This perhaps can be done, as our best efforts might double the present atmospheric pressure in near future, unless some new powerful technologies show up.

In that condition a double of the atmosphere, it is considered that snow and temporary melt streams may be possible. That could be useful if ductwork to collect the malt water were created.

But having a planet wide network of underground caves/tunnels, with greenhouse/swimming pools on the surface, connecting to them looks pretty good to me, at least for the next few centuries.

In such a method the ability to redistribute water would be a good feature.

As for Mass Drivers, it may be that they could still be used at high elevations. That would be the hope.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-19 08:54:59)

Void · 2022-12-19 09:38:25

As I see it, future Martians, which I presume will have come from Earth, will look at Mars and consider how fortunate it is that Mars is not covered in water. So how, as we presume, water was lost would not so much matter, but that it was lost.

As for the atmosphere, the ~6 mb to a possible 333 mb, might be considered a gift, just also the gravity .38 g.
So, that they can more easily launch stuff into space than is the case for Earth. But Mars is not a Hard Vacuum, and yet it also can be used for aerobraking.

The Mountains may be high enough to allow tether snatches even at 333 mb, and perhaps also mass drivers.

So, they might not really want Mars to become an Earth.

It is an interesting shift in perspective. A way to perhaps be more sensible about settling Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-19 09:41:53)

Calliban · 2022-12-19 12:46:18

Carbon dioxide is far more soluble than oxygen and nitrogen, because it reacts chemically with water to form carbonic acid.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gase … _1148.html

CO2 +H20 = H2CO3

Carbonic acid will then react with any dissolved base to form stable carbonates, which permanently sequester the CO2. The Martian surface is highly basic. So a high pressure CO2 atmosphere would be thermodynamically unstable on Mars. The present atmospheric pressure, 6.1mbar, is right at the triple point of water. That isn't likely a coincidence. Any liquid water that exists on Mars, would absorb atmospheric CO2 and sequester it in carbonate.

One option for building an oxygen atmosphere would be to release CO2 slowly and to compress it and inject it into plastic lined, ice covered ponds containing algae. The algae will fix the carbon and release oxygen into the air. The biomass can be composted and the sludge used to produce soil. This would avoid losing CO2 to carbonate, but it woukd take a very long time.

In the long run, a cold ocean could be very productive. On Earth, the most biorich seas are the coldest, close to the poles. This is because cold water has higher dissolved oxygen concentration. Those beautiful pacific atols, with their pristine, crystal clear waters, are clear precisely becauuse they are dead.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-19 12:52:50)

Void · 2022-12-19 13:51:56

I sort of agree almost entirely.

But will answer from my view.

Managed water would make the most sense.

We do want to inhibit atmospheric losses to solids, and also perhaps also loss to space.

The Example of Korolev Crater, might be a place where we could produce some type of mapiulations.

Allow me to propose something close to what you have suggested.

Melting canals in the upper layer of ice, then lining it with regolith. The plan seeks to exclude CO2 for the most part from the regolith, so please tolerate this for a bit.

If we put slightly pressurized plastic bubbles over these canals, we could have a formable and also meltable ice layer.

As far as CO2 in the water, that could be controlled rather well, I think, as you might only have a small amount of it dissolved in the water at any time. As you pumped in it, protoorganisms would consume it. So, if you pushed Martian air into these canals at a suitable rate, Carbon would be captured biomass. N2 and Argon would accumulate to saturation and would bubble out of the solution to the bottom of the ice, to perhaps be collected.

A plant consuming CO2 has to also get Hydrogen from the water, most likely, so the plants are liberating Oxygen from both CO2 and H2O. That is how I understand it. So, you lose some Carbon out of the atmosphere, and keep the Oxygen from the atmosphere, but also extract Oxygen from the water to the water as dissolved Oxygen, and so then ultimately to the atmosphere.

For fresh water, you can stratify the situation, as 39 degree water is the heaviest water in a fresh situation and will settle to the bottom, blocking the turnover of water.

So for the metric majority, 3.88888889 degrees C is the heaviest fresh water.

If the Martian atmosphere is mixed with the ~0 degrees C water, and a balance is maintained, the CO2 should have a hard time migrating down to the warmer (3.88888889 degrees C) water at the bottom. Of course, the edges might be exposed, but that regolith should saturate, so as to only absorb limited amounts of CO2. But we could further isolate the edges with plastic as you suggested.

The reason for a canal shape, is so that cold can permeate under the canal to keep that ice under the regolith layer frozen.

So, we want to utilize a simulation of subsea permafrost:
https://www.britannica.com/science/permafrost
Quote:

A unique occurrence of permafrost—one that has no analogue on land—lies under the Arctic Ocean, on the northern continental shelves of North America and Eurasia. This is known as subsea or offshore permafrost.

Quote:

Offshore structures
One of the most active and exciting areas of permafrost engineering is in subsea permafrost. Knowledge of the distribution, type, and water or ice content of subsea permafrost is critical for planning petroleum exploration, locating production structures, burying pipelines, and driving tunnels beneath the seabed. Furthermore, the temperature of the seabed must be known in order to predict potential sites of accumulation of gas hydrates or areas in which groundwater or artesian pressures are likely. In addition, knowledge of the distribution of subsea permafrost permits a thorough interpretation of regional geologic history.

This might be a resource: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/c1 … e88015dd73
Quote:

Coastal and offshore permafrost

Image Quote:

https://storymap.grida.no/wp-content/up … master.png

So, for Korolev, you might have canal and radiator strips alongside each other. The radiator strips can be made colder by putting something shading them in place. This could be solar panels or Heliostats for instance.

This very likely may work in most low-lying areas of Mars at least, where water could be obtained to.

If fresh water was the method, then at least seasonally the contents of such canals could be considered frost free.

Very slow moving submerged (Not floating), barges with transparent tops could be buoyant in these canals. By heating them additionally, crops could be fostered, and also the heat leaking out would help to keep the canals from freezing solid. So, then a network of canals could host an endless amount of cropland.

The cold stripes with solar power equipment could provide the energy for that heating. Although outside of dust storms, solar power on Mars is regular, loads on the electrical supplies may be irregular, so heating these barges would be a load leveling activity. Not every day is the same temperature on Earth, so that should not be a critical problem. Even at night although the barges should retain heat, these barges should not freeze inside.

But during a winter episode, or a prolonged dust storm it may be that these canals will freeze solid, so they have to be made to not be seriously damaged by that.

Now if we wanted to actually have open water canals, that is not impossible. It might be facilitated with salt.
A saturated salt solution like that of Don Juan Pond would not freeze, and the vapor pressure might be very low.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond

Instead of a pressurized film over these, they might be pressurized with a Nitrogen/Argon mix, at about ambient Martian air pressure. The "Bonnet would be a vapor barrier for the most part. Such canals will not be great for fostering life, but for transferring floating cargo, water, and salts.

But solar salt ponds are possible, they just might need more work.

So, now, as I see it for a long time, makeup water could be extracted from the polar ice caps by drilling holes into them with lasers and pumping the vapors out and compressing them into liquid.

Such ice caves may have some uses. Robots don't have to be that warm for instance.

There could be ice caves in the Korolev ice mass as well.

For a crop of course I have suggested barges with water inside them with Hydrilla as an option.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

So, it is ok as an emergency food, perhaps, and as a supplement.
Could it be gm changed to make lots of sugar to ferment?
Then the left-over biomass could be subjected to pyrolysis.
That could produce Hydrocarbons, and also possibly Carbon Char.

That char could be used to make steel perhaps.
Or a biogas fermenter could produce Methane and Hydrogen could be extracted from that to make steel.

Either way making steel should liberate Oxygen to the atmosphere.

So, not much of this you might want to swim in, but I did work on this as well, so that people could have a pleasant experience. http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 46#p204146

A concern can be condensation on the inside of the dome structures. Hopefully this can be managed as daytime should tend to melt or vaporize it off further into the interior. Of course in some cases this could be a source of fresh distilled water.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-19 14:56:21)

Void · 2022-12-19 20:41:29

A possible rudimentary depiction of circular canals which might host a "Train" of barges.

The basic concept might have merit, but don't expect this drawing to be proportional.

Where I depicted "Buildings", this could also be a vertical shaft where each "Barge" might be brought down to a processing center through a shaft filled with a column of water.

The blue rings would be toroidal balloons perhaps, in a dug trench, that would be one way to hold a minimum pressure. Where I have speculated on Barges, it might also be possible to actually keep the toroidal balloons pressurized and warm so that perhaps you could grow duckweed or Hydrilla. Now that I think about it that might be very, a good alternative as well.

The grey depicting solar power equipment could be movable or set mirrors to increase the sunlight to the blue rings.
But also, Solar Panels. I do not abandon the barge idea for other crops, but it does look very good in this for crops, aquatic, that could actually travel in the circulation of water through a loop.

While the part of the loop shown as blue may flow horizontally, in the building a vertical loop might suck the vegetation under ground to a cave pool, where it could be harvested, and some of the plants then sent back up into the blue loop.

The harvesting could be done at a low pressure with a minimal pressure suit, or at 333 mb in O2, or .5 bar in a N2/O2 mix.

I believe that Robert has mentioned that 100 mb is approximately where many land crops have their limits.
So, the pressure in the blue loop, may be as low as that.

But, the pressure in the loop might be lower, for some aquatic crops such as Algae, or Cyanobacteria.

Hydrilla, and Duckweed, I am not sure. The problem for the land crops at 100 mb was that they would dehydrate.
Hydrilla might have a greater tolerance, as it is to remain submerged in water.

So, then balloon toroid's, may be permitted to hold less pressure than would be suitable to humans and the like of animals.

So, if we have a system of underground tunnels, we can build vast numbers of these "Pads", and they would sort of function like leaves of a tree. The cave tunnels would serve like the branches and trunk and roots, I guess.

The solar apparatus would then also send electrical power to the undergrounds, and probably heat as well if needed.

And these would make the situation more spiritually acceptable, while the circles would produce bulk goods.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p204077

I changed course midway through doing the barge thing, but I am glad I did. The barge thing could be worked out as well. But there may be better ways to grow many crops. We might see, those who might live to see it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-19 21:03:37)

Void · 2022-12-19 22:23:27

Just for giggles, I would like to improve on this a bit: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p204077

I do have used the evil word "Dome", which is really just a placeholder word for a more developed idea of a structure.

I guess the main reason to be in an above ground structure is to let light in and also to have view ports so you can see the outside.

Additional functions could be to simulate habitats on Earth or gardens, and also to sufficiently give protection. Radiation being a considerable concern.

I have acquired various notions from members here and from things I read on the internet.

Dr. Johnson has a "Mushroom House" Which I believe has a weighted top to it looking like the top of a mushroom and perhaps being filled with regolith, I might suggest a water tank as an alternative which it is likely he might think of as well. I believe that the windows would be positioned vertically from the ground up to the mushroom top.

Spacenut has mentioned a room with an aquarium above it.

NASA is associated with this sort of thing: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/langley/a- … red-planet

Here are some additional pictures: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ma … HoverTitle

Isaac Arthur has suggested a small window with the focus of a mirror shining in it. I suppose it needs a waver guide tube sort of thing. And if the window breaks a door would shut ending the air leak. Not a bad notion to work on. Mars will have less impactors by far than the Moon though so perhaps a bit more liberal on how that is done.

And fiber optics has been suggested for bringing in concentrated light as well.

As for being able to look out over the Martian surface, I guess there could be small observation Copulas, but really, I wonder if good cameras and video screens may be a reasonable substitute?

But there could also be artificial lights as well. Why not? Or else the place would not be that cheery when the nights may be long.

Anyway, I hope that there will be other ideas as well.

But it would be great to be on the surface in a garden simulation, that would be well lighted, and very protected from hard radiation problems.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-19 22:43:03)

Void · 2022-12-20 17:14:47

I am posting this here, as I am ready for a switch anyway. I feel like for now enough is speculated on for Mars itself, or at least some of enough is speculated on.

Query: "Building Space Cities Out of Asteroids and Carbon Bags? New O'Neill Cylinder, Anton Petrov"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_dm0xLtjnM

There has been some despair on this site about how to manipulate rubble piles, but I do recall some members sort of approaching something like the above. It was not me.

The way I see it Phobos, and Demos are somewhat rubble piles, and as they are in orbit of Mars, rather than experimenting on NEO's or going straight to the asteroid belt, we have 3 worlds that can be explored, and where methods could be tried. There should be some sort of economy in doing it that way.

As for Phobos, my hope is that there are big VOIDS between large rock pieces inside it. If that were the case, and the size were large enough a centrifuge of the type they suggest could possibly be put inside, and then of course to build starter structures in that centrifuge.

Or, if not then to do what they suggest with modifications and to attach such a centrifuge external to the moon, Phobos and/or Demos, and in that case put a radiation shield in the toroid/cylinder netting of Carbon structure?

Anyway, that is all I have time for.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-20 17:21:39)

Void · 2022-12-21 09:25:55

I did have a nice video that was from "The Electric Viking" about Quaise Geothermal, but of course I fumbled the ball.

Here it is after all:

"12 mile deep holes could be the key to limitless clean energy, "The Electric Viking"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHdc_GDrR4

But here is something about Quaise Geothermal anyway: https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/disrupti … the-world/ Quote:

Disruptive drilling technology to help geothermal power the world

Quote:

This is about the thin solar cells: https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … human-hair Quote:

Scientists Have Developed Solar Cells 100 Times Thinner Than a Human Hair
TECH
21 June 2016
ByPETER DOCKRILL

I think this one might be important as it can perhaps help address the "Electrical Throughput" problem. That is if a home location can have a local power source like solar, then a more centralized power source does not have to be as big a part of home energy, which then reduces the amount of electrical transmission equipment. Of course, home electric then should have some battery storage.

Battery storage as well as small thermal storage can stand alone as well for "Off-Peak" power.

This other geothermal company has been displayed previously: https://www.eavor.com/
Quote:

Truly Scalable Clean Baseload & Dispatchable Power

The why of this post, why I am doing it? Well, I want the references in a spot I can find, and also, I want to talk about the local vs centralized power sources.

It looks like solar panels might end up being stickers on built structures. Also local can be battery packs owned by a local owner. On the town scale could be seasonal thermal: https://polarnightenergy.fi/ "Sand Batteries". It seems like Geothermal might be on a "Town" scale as well.

And then I think that Modern Nuclear and Wind will likely be on a large scale.

Much of this is not yet "Birds in the hand", but they are things being reached for.

So, the issue of local vs central, impacts the throughput needed for electrical systems, and so than influences how much in the way of transmission lines are needed.

Done.

This showed up in a timely manner. Peter Zihan's presentation in this video is on the surface technical and I think valuable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LV-D9mKoig Quote:

Where in the World: Quartzite and Greentech
Zeihan on Geopolitics
24K views 5 hours ago
Let's talk about Greentech - Solar and Wind in particular. The underlying goal of these green solutions is to produce clean energy at scale, but we are a long way off from that goal.
…

He seems to be down on solar installations in many places, but he is very upbeat about wind.

Some of his criticism of solar includes the use of Coal in China to make solar panels, and also the claimed use of slave labor.

I will note that it appears to me that high heat solar thermal may become possible, and perhaps could be the energy source to manufacture the newer solar panels? The ones listed above using 100 times less materials, (I think). Certainly, this would be a thing that might work out well in the "Sun Belts" of the world.

And I have been thinking that things like Tesla Bot might be able to get rid of the low wage labor currently in use to make solar panels.

So, the calculations for solar panels may be revised favorably over time.

I am glad though that Peter Zeihan is upbeat about wind at least.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-21 17:00:14)

Void · 2022-12-21 11:56:50

This place is empty today. I hope everyone is OK.

I wish to both deal with stuff on Mars itself and also the moons of Mars. I don't consider it to be a contradiction, it would be silly to go to that gravity well and not address all three worlds.

So, back to this, what I would call a 90 degree water loop agriculture system. (Post #696)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p204288
Imgur Quote:

In that post I began with a canal hosting barges with agricultural gardens in them. It was my intention that the barges would be brought periodically to a location where they can more easily be manipulated. So, one such method would be a "water column elevator". Most likely the elevator would allow barges to be brought down into an underground facility, using buoyancy and motivating methods.

And then in mid-stream it occurred to me that microbial and also floating vegetation could be hosted in these tubes without barges. Things like Algae, Cyanobacteria, Duckweed, and Hydrilla. These could be flowed from the sunlight part of the loop down into the cave system. In such a case, the temperatures have to be high enough for the hosted "Crop". So, the walls of the loop, including especially the horizontal sunlight part of the loop have to endure significant differential pressure. 70 millibar, or more, I expect.

However, Calliban has indicated that cold water which can hold more gasses, and which also gets nutrients that can be dissolved in the water, is very productive as far as photosynthesis is concerned.

This is rather confusing but does have Antarctic sea water temps along with something about lake Miichagan.
https://seatemperature.info/antarctica- … McMurdo%29.
Well, we know that Antarctic sea water can be below the freezing point of fresh water.
Quote:

How cold is Antarctica water in autumn? In October sea water temperature throughout Antarctica is not yet warm enough for swimming and does not exceed 20°C. Based on average water temperature observations over the past ten years, the warmest sea in Antarctica in October was -1.1°C (in Elephant Island), and the coldest water -1.8°C (in McMurdo). To find out the sea temperature today and in the coming days, go to Current sea temperature in Antarctica

It is possible for life to function at -20 degrees C, but lets use 0 degrees C, and we know that the ambient average surface pressure for Mars is near the Tripple point of water.

So, ignoring the pressure, it would be possible to simulate Antarctic conditions on Mars with water very near the Tripple point of water. So, I guess it should not be that necessary to do that. What I am getting at is I want to see if the pressure can be reduced to very near that of Mars, and still host a vigorous photosynthesis. I think there is some hope of it.

In realty if a loop were to be built which is of transparent materials, it should not be that hard to make it hold some small differential pressure. But that is unknown. Just how far it would be desired to push this is also undiscovered at this time.

But it does seem to me that the differential pressure could be low.

The only entanglement with that is to have enough dissolved gasses in the water to suit the life forms being grown.
I am of the opinion that some types of Cyanobacteria might do OK, maybe Algae as well.

I think I need a vertical drawing for the loop now. Pause.....................

This relates to the previous diagram, but is a side view not a top view, and shows the vertical columns of the loop in some greater detail. Its method relates to a Barometer.

This may be assistive for understanding: "barometric pet water dispenser"
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

Another method to understand is to fill a sink with water and immerse a glass in the water and get rid of the air. Then draw the glass up out of the water partly but not completely so that air can get in.

The pressure in the glass will be highest at the lip of the glass, and lowest inside the glass at its highest point.

In the Earth's gravitational field, if the glass were tall enough, say 33 feet or so, you would end up with a low-pressure vapor bubble in the upper end of the inverted glass. That effect would also be influenced by the water temperature. 33 feet = 10.0584 Meters, you metrics.

In a good enough way, you can multiply those numbers by 3 to approximate the Martian gravitational field.

The behavior of dissolved gasses could be a problem in this system, if any gas reaches a saturation point, then it will tend to come out of solution in the horizontal part of the loop. Typical gasses would be CO2, O2, N2, Argon, and perhaps others. So then to prevent the loop from becoming air bound you would need a vacuum system to extract that excess buildup of gas bubbles in the Horizontal part of the loop.

Well, that moves it along.

Anyway, I consider it possible to do what I have indicated, perhaps to a profit.

To even perhaps have some type of photo-aquiculture at 10 millibars, 6 millibars, and possibly even lower, but I do not know why that would be bothered with. Returning to barge enclosures which would float within the tubes, then if the water is at .01 deg C, frost will not occur within the barges, and the barges would need whatever internal heating the crop they held would need. Of course, for the Barges concept, the tubes would need to be significantly large.

Done.

Applications on Earth? Well maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-21 12:58:56)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-21 14:29:42

For Void re #695

Thank you for both links provided in this post!

The thin cell article is encouraging, and the report of Australian achievement is remarkable!

The article about millimeter microwave melting of rock was well researched and written by the author. It showed both the potential, and the difficulties in the path of the research/developers. I was glad to see a mix of public and private funding for this work. The public would benefit greatly as increased supplies of energy act to reduce costs for production of goods, and the private sector would benefit with distributions to investors and reduced costs for customers over time.

Please keep an eye on developments in both areas!

Your work on the underground habitats shows signs of "genius at work", so no one would presume to intrude without a ** very ** good reason!

If you want comments upon your work, you might be able to set up a place for comments. In the past, when members have attempted to intrude upon topics you have created, it has seemed (to me at least) that such intrusions are not welcome.

In any case, thank you for sharing your unfolding visions as they occur.

(th)

Void · 2022-12-21 17:04:51

(th),

I appreciate the encouragement. Comments are welcome in most cases, within reason of course.

Genius? Pashion perhaps.

I do enjoy trying to adapt to other worlds and feel that I am getting rather close to some level of practicality.

Part of why I try to do it is I am not satisfied, of a reality where the people are surfs who exist only to be less than the idiot savants, that can exploit them with words and violence. I consider it to be a deep corruption to allow the people to be misused in such a way, when they could be doing so much more.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-21 17:08:25)

Void · 2022-12-21 17:17:49

Well, back to the Antarctic Seaweed: https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/u … a%E2%80%9D.
Quote:

Seaweed found living 100m below Antarctic ice shelf
Researchers say the discovery of red algae is 'important for furthering our knowledge of Antarctica'

There is some important counselling from Calliban to pay attention to in this matter:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p204277

And I wish to expand on this:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 05#p204305

What I am thinking is the simulation as much as possible of an Antarctic Sea, and that in hopes of being able to grow life forms native to it on Mars.

The algae

"Seaweed found living 100m below Antarctic ice shelf
Researchers say the discovery of red algae is 'important for furthering our knowledge of Antarctica'"

Another Article: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63785575
I guess this is an image of the organisms?: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr … 5.jpg.webp
Query: "red alga palmaria decipiens"
Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=re … HoverTitle

So, probably in general these "Canals" of this size for this purpose would be of cold sea water simulant, with domes above the surface, and the surface typically covered with ice, although if needed it could be melted to reform the ice windows. Upon melting the old ice, the trick might be to pool degassed cold water on top, to freeze as without gasses in it such water would have less light defusing bubbles in it.

This sort of canal might be used:

But these would be of a larger scale.

A concern might be that not enough CO2 would be dissolved in the water. The water being cold helps. But the thickness of the ice on top of the water would determine the amount of dissolved gas that could stay in solution.

There are two directions to go with this. If you compress Martian Air into solution, then the Algae would consume the CO2 and liberate Oxygen. Those becoming saturated would bubble out of solution and collect under the ice. And at some point, that would need to be collected.

The other way is to only push CO2 into the water, and so then Oxygen would be what saturates and then bubbles out of solution. So, a fairly pure Oxygen.

I don't know in each situation how the algae get their Nitrogen and other nutrients. Perhaps they are added as chemicals prepared for farming the Algae.

These Canals could be linked horizontally. Forming a strange sea of circles attached to each other.

Here again a "Jim" suit modified, might allow humans to travel in this cold garden habitat(s): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIM_suit

The modifications might allow for proper gloves instead of what has to be used for deep sea activities on Earth.

And these seas could have diving bells where the suits could be recharged, or maybe the person could get out and do metabolic related activities on a periodic basis.

I would also expect telepresence, but being able to walk though a sea on Mars in the sunshine, might be valuable for human psychology.

Although Mars can be quite rugged, in many places it can also be quite flat, so imagine an array of these canals that would cover most of the Northern lowlands.

Perhaps that would work out well.

Done.

Using permafrost to seal the bottom of these canals, it might be possible to put some non-reactive substance on top of the permafrost that might be thermally insulating, and which would not capture CO2 from a reaction. Perhaps Sandstone tiles pulled out of caves when the caves are created. Sandstone may already be saturated with atmospheric gasses. And then perhaps an insulator under the sandstone. Styrofoam? Maybe something new. Bubbled Glass Foam?

Something to work on.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-21 17:56:07)

Void · 2022-12-21 18:40:23

I am making this post in part as a note to myself. But light therapy will likely be very important on Mars.

i believe that NASA already knows about this as they do red light on the ISS, I believe.

"doctor uses red light box for 3 months Blood test results, "Johny & Yusef""
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cjZwllSaZY

Nuff said!

Done

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