Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-11-21 10:18:08

I will likely linger on the Moon for a bit longer, or so.

https://moon.nasa.gov/inside-and-out/water-on-the-moon/

The above suggests why the bias against the Moon having water was so deeply set in the minds of humans. It goes way back. So, apparently this set the notion in motion: Quote:

Totally Dry Moon (1892)
American astronomer William Pickering made measurements in the late 1800s that led him to conclude the Moon essentially has no atmosphere. With no clouds and no atmosphere, scientists generally agreed that any water on the lunar surface would evaporate immediately. Pickering’s measurements led to a widespread view that the Moon was devoid of water.

But, more recently: Quote:

Confirmation of Moon Water – Sunlit Surface (2020)
In 2020, NASA announced the discovery of water on the sunlit surface of the Moon. Data from the Strategic Observatory for Infrared Astronomy (SOFIA), revealed that in Clavius crater, water exists in concentrations roughly equivalent to a 12-ounce bottle of water within a cubic meter of soil across the lunar surface. The discovery showed that water could be distributed across the lunar surface, even on sunlit portions, and not confined to cold, dark areas.

And: Quote:

More to Discover
Researchers have confirmed that water exists both in the sunlit and shadowed surfaces of the Moon, yet many questions remain. Lunar scientists continue to investigate the origins of water and its behavior. There is evidence that the water on the Moon comes from ancient and current comet impacts, icy micrometeorites colliding on the lunar surface, and lunar dust interactions with the solar wind. However, more research is needed to understand the full history, present, and future of water on the Moon.

So, it looks like less cold areas might give enough water for a base to start up, and then over time bigger deposits might supply more than life support and experimental levels of water access.

A very good thing, I feel.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-21 10:23:50)

Void · 2022-11-21 19:17:40

I feel a need to send a message to (th) and company about "Venus Balloons". I applaud your efforts to create a Venus probe. However, I feel that what I suggested was not a glass balloon as seems to now be the notion.

Some time ago it occurred to me that robotic aircraft might be able to be cooled and powered by cold substances created in cloud cities. Then those robots could dive down to the surface, grab some stuff and then rise back again.

I was actually thinking propeller driven planes, but they also could behave like an airship at times, if filled with a lifting gas. The substances pondered would come from the atmosphere of Venus. Dry Ice, Liquid CO2, Liquid Nitrogen, perhaps even water.

In the same way that a floating house can be imagined for Venus, (Specially Designed of course), a plane filled with gas Nitrogen could float in the atmosphere of Venus.

So, although these things could drop like submarines, with Dry Ice as Ballast, they would allow the same internal pressure on the inside as on the outside all the way down and all the way up.

The cold substances vaporizing, will cool the necessary parts, and when the Dry Ice is gone, the ship should start up, then being filled with gas Nitrogen. It might however still do a powered flight, should it have a means to run a motor.

In order to carry a load of regolith, I suggest that there should be a hanger for it at the 10-bar level. The Hanger might actually also be a plane with the ability of powered flight that could bring loads up to the 1 bar level.

The materials needed for the deep dive aircraft will have to tolerate acid, and very high heat, but not necessarily at the same time.

Oh, by the way, coolant could alternately be Sulfuric Acid collected from the clouds, but of course that would be hell to run though a turbine to generate power.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-21 19:28:26)

Void · 2022-11-21 19:35:08

Now, let's have a Halloween party on the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … &FORM=VIRE

So, I am thinking about space tethers with bones, joints, tendons, and ligaments.

Can be make giant arms to grab stuff shot up with a mass driver? For the moment I am restricting my thinking to the Moon.

So, it might be good to review this from Isaac Arthur: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3

Lots of stuff bubbling up on this. Of course, we could consider Canada Arm(s) as existing and baby versions. As I have said, I am focusing on the Moon at this time. Let's consider spinning tethers. For simplicity, just two arms, but of course the thing could be like a Farris wheel with many arms from a hub.

Isaac Arthur has suggested ion drives for a make up momentum method. Argon from the Moon was suggested. And fine with that! It is good!

But I have considered magnetic bubbles in the Solar Wind, Throttling the field size appropriate to harvesting momentum of orbit and spin as might be done. Of course the Earth's magnetotail hits the Moon once a month, so that is a problem wanting a solution, perhaps that can help to offer momentum as well.

Let's try to use the Moon for propellant. Not taking propellant from the Moon but using the Moon itself as propellant. For tether spin, you might turn a magnet on each end on and off appropriately in the spin cycle to attract the Moon. This will most likely work to modify the tether spin.

But now let's put a magnetic unicycle wheel on each tether end. Goofy stuff!

You see you could spin the wheel forward or reverse, and you could also "Turn the Wheel".

Now you might spin the magnetic wheel on each tether end to steer, and also to give orbital energy, and also effect the spin of the tether device.

Might you cause dust emissions doing wheel spins? What about the electrostatically levitated dust? Can you collect these to the device magnetically and/or electrostatically?

I think this is quite interesting.

And Isaac Arthur thinks things can be snatched right off the surface of the Moon. I might also consider netting objects lofted with a mass driver. Maybe even heavy fishing line hooked to the net, and a fishing pole drag reel sort of thing.

Really cool stuff, I think.

Wheels Within Wheels, I am afraid. Hope the license fee is not too high, and that the space cops don't arrest us.

The Moon has some magnetic materials and likely some inductive materials in its regolith, I believe.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … roilite%29. Quote:

Earth and Planetary Science Letters
Volume 292, Issues 3–4, 1 April 2010, Pages 383-391
Earth and Planetary Science Letters
Magnetic properties of lunar materials: Meteorites, Luna and Apollo returned samples
Author links open overlay panelP.RochetteaJ.GattaccecaaA.V.IvanovbM.A.NazarovbN.S.Bezaevaac
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.epsl.2010.02.007Get rights and content
Abstract
We present the first comprehensive study of the magnetic properties of lunar meteorites and compare them with measurements from Apollo and Luna returned samples. 37 unpaired lunar meteorites were studied, while new susceptibility measurements were performed on 88 Luna soil and rock samples, to complement published Luna and Apollo data. New magnetic data were also obtained on 4 Apollo mare basalt samples. Magnetic susceptibility and saturation remanence appear mainly controlled by the amount of metallic iron added by the regolith-forming processes and meteoritic contamination, as shown by a positive correlation with Ni and Ir content, a decrease with depth in regolith core profiles, and a decrease with increasing soil size fraction. The three sources of lunar materials provide coherent range of magnetic properties, although the much larger abundance of anorthositic highland samples in the meteorite collection allows one to better describe the properties of this major lunar lithology. The observed range of saturation remanence implies that mare basalts cannot contribute significantly to the patchy lunar crustal magnetizations, which must be attributed to superficial impact processed feldspathic or mafic lithologies.
Introduction
Our natural satellite is the only body in the solar system from which samples are available through two completely different processes: sampling through man made spacecrafts, i.e. « returned sample », and natural sampling by impact and transport to the Earth, i.e. meteorites.
The lunar surface has been sampled at 9 sites (Fig. 1), covering a restricted range of latitude (45°) and longitude (85°) in the near-sided and near equatorial part of the Moon (Heiken et al., 1991). The iron-rich lithologies, essentially basalts from the maria, are overrepresented in the returned samples. The main lunar crustal type, the iron-poor feldspathic highland rocks, makes only 2.5% of the sample returned collection in mass (present in Apollo 16 and Luna 20 collection mostly, see Wieczorek et al., 2006). Lunar meteorites, although sampled by impacts in unknown position and depth, present the advantage of potentially providing lithologies not sampled by lunar missions. In particular the high latitudes and far side of the Moon are suspected to show quite different lithologies and lunar meteorites appear to provide a more representative average lunar crustal composition (Korotev et al., 2003, Demidova et al., 2007).
While the samples returned by the Apollo 11 to 17 missions from 1969 to 1972 (380 kg of soils and rocks) and by the Luna 16, 20 and 24 missions from 1970 to 1976 (320 g of soils and minute rock fragments) have been the subject of considerable work in the years following missions (see Ivanov et al., 1980, Fuller and Cisowski, 1987), lunar meteorites have not been subjected to any magnetic study, except the Yamato 791197 (Nagata and Funaki, 1986) and ALHA 81005 (Morris, 1983). Morris (1983) reported only saturation magnetization measurements together with ferromagnetic resonance data. The aim of the present work is thus to present a comprehensive study of lunar meteorites, and compare it to published data on the Apollo and Luna missions. We also provide new data from the Luna 16 and 20 surface soil samples, from the Luna 24 two meters long core, and from a few Apollo rocks.
In the framework of building a database of magnetic properties of meteorites, we have compiled and measured in a large number of meteorite collections the magnetic susceptibility (χ) of more than 5000 samples (Rochette et al., 2003, Rochette et al., 2008, Rochette et al., 2009). Magnetic susceptibility has the advantage of providing rapid and non-destructive bulk measurements, using portable instruments that can be operated in the repository rooms, without any sample preparation. It allows measuring large and small masses of multiple samples and thus estimating meteorite heterogeneity at the centimeter to meter scales. Therefore the present work will rely mainly on magnetic susceptibility measurements, and secondarily on saturation remanence measurements (Mrs), mostly obtained by compiling literature.
Reviewing such intrinsic magnetic properties for lunar material has various applications: (1) providing clues for meteorite classification (i.e. distinction between lunar meteorites and other achondrites, Rochette et al., 2009), (2) better defining the processes responsible for the presence of metallic iron in lunar materials and discuss e.g. soil maturity (Korotev et al., 1997), and (3) providing a detailed framework for the interpretation of the paleomagnetic signal of lunar rocks and the origin of crustal magnetization (Fuller and Cisowski, 1987). The lunar crustal magnetization, contrary to the Martian case, appears to be limited to a few isolated patches based on magnetic field measurements by Lunar Prospector (Fig. 1 after Richmond and Hood, 2008). According to electron reflectometer data (Mitchell et al., 2008), these patches (of > 3 nT at 40 km altitude) correspond to somehow more extended magnetized zone at the surface, with fields than can reach over 100 nT. Clearly most magnetized zones are found in highlands terranes, and their interpretation may not be feasible based on sample returned data only. Understanding how and in what magnetic field these magnetizations were acquired is a major pending question about the lunar interior structure and history, related to the still hypothetic existence of a metallic core and an early dynamo (Fuller, 1998, Wieczorek et al., 2006, Hood and Artemieva, 2008, Lawrence et al., 2008, Garrick-Bethell et al., 2009).
Section snippets
Samples, magnetic mineralogy and measurements
Total iron content varies from 2 to > 21 wt.% FeO in lunar rocks based on laboratory analyses and spectroscopic mapping by the Clementine mission (Lucey et al., 2000, Gillis et al., 2004; Fig. 1). The low iron content of highland rocks (mostly in the 2–5% FeO range) is unique among other bulk solar system materials that all have FeO content well above 8% (Rochette et al., 2008, Rochette et al., 2009), except some aubrites. MnO and Cr2O3 contents are on average about 0.1 wt.% in highland rocks and
Summary of magnetic properties of Apollo samples
Numerous authors have studied the magnetic properties of Apollo samples (e.g. Nagata et al., 1972, Brecher et al., 1973, Collinson et al., 1973, Wasilewski and Fuller, 1975). Fuller and Cisowski (1987, see also Fuller, 1998) have reviewed the rock magnetic data available on Apollo samples and present in particular a susceptibility (χ) and saturation remanence (Mrs) database on 60 samples (20 non brecciated rocks, 26 breccias, 14 soils, from all missions). This database is not representative for
New magnetic susceptibility data
We will present here the newly performed measurements of the samples studied by Ivanov et al. (1980, see also Ivanov and Gorshkov, 1979) and compared it to published data by Pillinger et al. (1978) (Tables A and B in the Appendix). Barsukov (1977) presented the general characteristics of the Luna 24 core that provided continuous sampling from 73 to 225 cm nominal depth, the drilling tube being inclined at 30° from the vertical. Above 73 cm (unit 1) have been recovered only a few fragments > 1 mm,
Magnetic susceptibility
After tentative pairing following Korotev (http://meteorites.wustl.edu/), Nazarov et al., 2003, Demidova et al., 2007 we obtained average data from 37 out of the 66 unpaired declared lunar meteorites (Table C in the Appendix), plus the ungrouped GRA 06128 meteorite, petrographically similar to some lunar materials although oxygen isotopic data point toward affinities with brachinites (Zeigler et al., 2008, Day et al., 2009). We separated (simplifying Korotev's scheme) lunar meteorites into 3
Discussion
Overall lunar meteorites share the same range of magnetic properties as rock samples from Apollo and Luna missions (see Table 1), although lower magnetic susceptibilities are more frequent in the meteorites, in agreement with the much larger abundance of anorthositic samples. On the other hand anorthositic samples with meteoritic contamination are among the most magnetic lunar rocks.
When compared to other metal bearing evolved achondrites (the howardites–eucrites–diogenites clan i.e. HED, and
Conclusions
Lunar materials, both meteorites and returned samples, are rare materials that as far as possible require non-destructive methods for their systematic study. Magnetic properties provide such a non-destructive method, essentially probing the amount and nature of metallic iron particles, ubiquitous in lunar materials although in small amount (≪ 5 wt.%). The magnetic method allows to measure such amount with high sensitivity (down to the order of 10 ppm depending on mass and measurement method) and
Acknowledgments
The PICS CNRS/RFFI (grant no. 07-05-92165) program funded the personal exchanges between the Aix en Provence and Moscow partners that were necessary to fulfill this study. The PNP program of INSU and CNES and project ANR09 BLAN 0042-01 also funded this work.
We acknowledge the loan of Apollo samples by NASA through M. Fuller and G. Lofgren. We thank M. Fuller, R. Korotev and B. Weiss for their important contribution through data and discussion. We are also indebted to numerous persons who

A long quote, but what the heck, this might be some good stuff!

An orbital electrostatic dust collector, with momentum additions by various means possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-23 21:26:03)

Void · 2022-11-23 11:07:01

On the notion of adding robotic parts to a tether, it has to be accepted that this will place more strain on the tethers, so its value must justify the move.

A device might be a motorized hub, which might move both ends of the spinning type tether. That would require lots of brute force ability.
It might do each end independently if desired.

Or it might be possible to have a counterweight(s) on each half of the tether that moves up and down to change the balance. That would be a bit like a "Space Elevator".

Or you might have parts dangling from the ends of each tether. That would put a lot of strain on the tethers.

And then there would be the magnetic fields that might be employed.

Query: "Magnetic bubble space propulsion"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Magnetic% … cc=0&ghpl=

Here is one source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail

Query: "Magnetic bubble space propulsion, size"

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20030067378
Quote:

Fundamentals of Plasma Sails Propulsion Concept The Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion (M2P2), originally proposed by Winglee et al., is based on the two-fluid plasma model and requires a 15-km frontal standoff distance (or 20-km cross-sectional diameter) in order for the magnetic bubble to absorb sufficient momentum from the SW to accelerate a spacecraft to the unprecedented speeds of 50-80 km/s after an acceleration period of about three months.
Author: G. V. Khazanov, K. Kabin, P. A. Delamere
Publish Year: 2002

So, there seem to be different types of magnetic sails, and I am somewhat confused, some you push plasma into some gather part of the solar wind, and perhaps some are more or less just magnetic fields.

If the spinning tether system for the Moon resembled a "Q-Tip" then the magnetic fields might resemble the "Swab" portions.

We may have this spinning around in an orbit, and the tether spinning on its axis, and we may have magnetic fields that can be moved up and down on elevators, and those magnetic fields may spin like a wheel, and we might steer the magnetic fields like the front wheel on a bicycle. So, try to see that in your mind!

The magnetic fields might expand 15-km or more from the end of the tether??? So, then the magnetic fields might interact with the Moon's surface, acting on both the Ferromagnetic materials in the regolith, and perhaps the inductive materials which might be ionized gasses, which might be induced to produce a counter EMF and so a counter magnetic field.

I guess I will let this rest for a bit, go have something to eat.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-23 11:25:23)

Void · 2022-11-23 19:59:56

So, I like the rotating tether method, as I feel it is more likely to operate in "Clean" space, as opposed to places of more space junk. Space elevators are supposed to be possible for the Moon with today's technology, but the longer the tether, the more likely to be damaged by impactors.

I do think that the possibility of lifting lots of mass off of the Moon is likely, and so we might consider how this can affect the access to the rest of the solar system.

I very much upgrade my assessment of the Moon and think it could eventually have a very large population either directly on it or in association with it in synthetic gravity machines.

Everything I think I now know about the Moon suggests that the rocks down below may be much more Earth like in their content, so may have a distribution of substances suitable to human activities. If not then it may be possible to get those in bulk from asteroids, maybe even Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-23 20:05:03)

Void · 2022-11-23 21:26:56

I have the video from Isaac Arthur from post #628 here again if anyone wants to review it: (Skyhooks)
So, it might be good to review this from Isaac Arthur: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3

I am still thinking the Moon and trying to figure out possible options. Gym Kettlebells might be interesting: https://repfitness.com/collections/kettlebells

So, my experience with working at a Taconite processing facility, is that although you could ship raw ore, what was done was to take it apart, and then put it together again with more iron content. Also, with a useful shape. In a similar fashion, for materials from the Moon, it might be desirable to have what is sent be in proportions that are the most useful to the location where they arrive to.

This is sort of like what we made to ship to the steel mills: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165734851714?c … 35daca83f9

And I am only nominating the concept of Kettlebells to "Snatch" from the Lunar surface. We can give it a try.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettlebell

But it could be imagined that the exterior and handle of the object might be of crafted metals. In the interior might be other substances.
Oxides or Hydrated Minerals, maybe liquid Argon, or water ice. For water ice you would need to be careful that the freezing does not expand and crack the kettlebell.

Possibly a rotating tether would "Snatch" these things from the top of a crater wall. Some craters may have extra magnetic materials that the tether can attract towards to impact its orbit and spin.

The Kettlebells also might be convenient to fling. and perhaps some kind of a Mass Driver could handle them.

I guess I would prefer the shells of these not be returned to the Moon, rather a "Maker" could mass produce them.

We do have the possible option of having robots and telepresence on the Moon with guidance from Earth.

So, then that brings us back to the machine to get Oxygen from Lunar Regolith and produce useful alloys:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -soil.html

I trot these out from time to time: https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ation.html

I would not mind some input from the other members if it were convenient to them.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-23 21:44:41)

Void · 2022-11-24 14:31:47

So, if a tether system with an arm on the bottom to snatch a load up were used, then there might be a "Hand UP Arm" on the edge of a crater wall. Maybe something like an extension ladder, to push the "Payload" up to be grabbed by the tether arm. The hope being if it went wrong, the ladder would tend to tip over, if addressed by the tether arm in a bad way.

So, then if this would work, the idea of choosing what the payload contains. If you want Oxygen in orbit for space habitats, that is one thing, if you want Oxygen for propellants for propulsion devices then that is an additional amount to be included.

If someone has better to offer, that would be fine, and good!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-24 14:35:35)

Void · 2022-11-25 10:27:47

OK, so I have this not entirely correct drawing of a possible type of Lunar Tether system:

Obviously, whoever is directing it will crash it into the Moon with its spin, but just suppose someone better than me did the drawing. Then it might be OK.

So, I anticipate possibly four propulsion methods at least. Isaac Arthur has suggested ion drive, which I do not depict in the above drawing.

But the sail magnetic field could sail on the solar wind. It could be throttled in size to catch the solar wind more or less as might be desired.

If there were magnetic concentrations in the Lunar Crust, perhaps it could also expand appropriately to either accelerate or brake using those.
As this magnet would be at the hub, it could be the big one.

The sail going around the Moon would at times be occulted by the Moon, and at times be heading into the solar wind, or alternately with the solar wind.

Although I have not indicated it the sail field might also be given a spin in either direction to react with any substances which might interact with the field. The Moon's crust, or the Solar Wind or the Earth's magnetotail, which at times will reach the Moon. If I recall it might be 4 days of the month, approximately.

The fields at each end of the tether must be smaller as the magnets will be heavy and the tether must bear their weight. But they may also be throttled and spun in either direction just as the main hub field. They may also interact with the Lunar Crust, the Solar wind, and the Earth's Magnetotail.

The objective is to provide thrust to lift loads off the surface of the Moon or to catch loads shot out of a Mass Driver. The loads might also be cast off to another location by centrifugal force, or it may be that the hub of the tether might have a mass driver, which could use the loads as propellants, and also shoot them to a location. Of course, to do both then something has to go retrograde, either the loads or the tether.

So, this might have a space elevator aspect as you might pick up a load with the end of a tether, and then move it to the hub and shoot it out of a Mass Driver in the hub.

Weird stuff if it can be done.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 14:39:35)

Void · 2022-11-27 14:25:57

Well, I think I will move back here for a while. I am thinking about the previous post and wondering if such a machine would be useful in the asteroid belt as well.

I am also planning on adopting materials from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geostored Energy" as of post #32.

I am interested in that material for Callisto, Ceres and perhaps other asteroids, Mars and of course the Earth as well as other worlds.

For some worlds I will be hoping to figure out how to have seas but keep ahead of atmospheric losses due to materials absorbing it.

I kind of think that microbes might pull Oxygen and Carbon out of regolith, if they are given Hydrogen in a temperate environment.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-27 14:35:34)

Void · 2022-11-27 20:40:08

I like this material from post #6 of ""Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geostored Energy"":

Transplanted materials from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power."
I imagine I missed some good stuff from other members, but below is at least a compact library of appropriate items.
From (th) #45:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61mz4vr1EeE
Associated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtQmGPmyLA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDQ4t_lIMo
From Spacenut #90:
https://electrek.co/2022/11/21/heres-ho … ys-future/
From Void #82:
OTEC associated geothermal:
https://www.maritime-executive.com/edit … eat%20sink
Eavor: #82:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3
From Spacenut, Heat Pump system #91:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/hom … 59ac411c6a
--------
While most articles indicate that the Earth's heat comes from the original accretion of the planet, and from radioactive decay, I am of the opinion that the solar wind has been inducing heat into the Earth and other planets over billions of years also.
This article slightly supports the idea: https://solarsystemwiki.org/solar-wind. … %20density. Quote:
When solar output increases, the Earth grows warmer. Sun spots and the solar wind are both byproducts of the Sun’s internal processes. While a greater solar wind does not mean that the Earth will get hotter, increased activity in the Sun that makes it hotter will warm the Earth while increasing the solar wind’s speed and density.
My opinion is that although the solar wind does not directly reach the Earth itself, it warps the Earth's magnetic field like a punching bag. Bending and fluctuating the magnetic field lines, should heat molecules deep in the Earth.
As for the Moon and Mars, a tiny bit of that where a fossil field exists, and also, I expect that the magnetics of the magnetic field induced in the collision of the solar wind with the atmosphere, (Mars), or the body itself, (Moon), should be felt internally.
I seem to recall that both the Moon and Mars appear now to be warmer inside than was expected. I think magnetic field lines could be part of why.
I do recall articles some time ago that suggested that planets around red dwarf flare stars, might have magma oceans underground from very active stellar winds, so the idea is not entirely unthinkable. Inductive heating would be the situation.
Here is an article on inductive heating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating
So, in modeling the geothermal heat potential for other worlds, I feel that that should be considered. For instance, it might help to heat oceans for Ceres, maybe Pluto, although Pluto is a bit farfetched.
[Added 11/25/2022 from "Index» Not So Free Chat» When Science becomes perverted by Politics." Post #630:
This seems like a rational opinion. Some here will like it, perhaps some others will not like it as much.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
Done.
Added 11/25/2022 Spacenut has provided very good wind information in post #20 of this topic.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-27 20:40:53)

Void · 2022-11-27 20:55:02

This is from post #31 of that topic mentioned in the last post:

Now, as it happens, I was just provided with a new idea from Utube, and will add it in here. It is rather exciting for Earth and probably other worlds.
If I upset you (th) then I am sorry.
This Query: "Vertical solar panels are 7 times more efficient than horizontal panels, The Electric Viking"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Vertical+ … 2b256895da
A specific response: https://www.renewable.news/renewables/s … d%20energy.
The video I watched? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxW4x86mpLk
Quote:
Vertical solar panels are 7 times more efficient than horizontal panels
The Electric Viking
106K subscribers
I don't like his use of the phrase "Climate Crisis", but it is a good video.
His claim of 7 times better must be reconciled with his indicating "Horizontal" as the reference. Of course, Horizontal will not yield as much energy as a sun facing installation.
But now I am very excited about this east west installation method, as at high latitudes, I anticipate that snow on the ground will boost the amount of sunlight to impinge on the panels, especially in mid-day.
So, this may apply to the "Great Lakes" area, and of course up into Canada, and Alaska.
This sort of installation would be better cooled by winds, and thermal convection in air as well, so then the efficiency should be greater, at least in the winter.
If we apply this to Mars, then by laying a reflective or diffusive foil/vapor barrier on the ground, this may improve the operation.
The vertical panels might also become heat exchanger fins for a geothermal/geostorage facility.
This could be important on worlds like Ceres, and others.
The method in the land of the Midnight Sun? Well it requires some thinking, I guess.
And back on Earth, he indicates that some crops could be grown between the panels, and of course then the "Yards" are available for use if people have lawns between the panels.
I may also suggest the evaporation from the soil may be reduced, or I suppose that may be true.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-27 20:55:18)

Void · 2022-11-27 20:57:53

While I am still strongly interested in high latitude solar and other energy on Earth, now I am focusing on Mars for a bit.
I also am interested in the vertical solar panels mentioned in the previous post's quote.

I think that they could work together well. even solar and nuclear, as the panels could be made to incorporate radiators, that would dip into the deep cold Mars can offer.

Of course, then I would seek to adapt that to still more worlds.

Done.

Void · 2022-11-28 09:07:12

OK, well I am going to start with the Eavor presentation again, as it is what I am the more familiar with, and it may be suitable to both Earth and Mars.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

They cite 50 degrees C per km for the Earth, possibly 60 in the American west.

Their pilot plant is 2 km, and is for demonstration. They would like to go 4.5 km or more eventually. They are looking for 100, 200, 300 c or even more eventually. To convert to miles: https://www.unitconverters.net/length/km-to-miles.htm

(So, 2 km = 1.2427423845 Miles, 4.5 km = 2.7961703651 Miles)

So, that is fairly modest for drilling deep, not requiring fantastic tech, I think.

---

A potential partner technology has shown itself to me, which is a good accident.
From post #636: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxW4x86mpLk

So, the 7 to 1 claim, I presume involves panels that are actually horizontal, but no matter. If I visualize this correctly these panels would be bifacial and would face East and West and would resemble a giant heat exchanger fins arrangement. And so, I would like to consider including heat exchanger capabilities in the fins. The Eavor device appears to use a fluid that is not water, perhaps Propane, or Butane?

And I am thinking that for Mars the ground between them would have a reflective foil/vapor barrier on it so that at noon day, light hitting the ground would tend to reflect too the panels. This could be augmented by making the ground not flat. Say a "V" trench, or a mound.

If you were on Earth and growing a plant, then such a "V" or mound might give more surface area.

So now the Eavor, and the vertical solar panels can work together.

The solar panels being a radiator for the Eavor, and the Solar Panels pushing energy into the Eavor.

The electricity from the solar panels could run a heater and pump, and then you could pump hot fluids into the Eavor.

However, I am thinking to run an electric current through the Eavor, creating a resistive and possibly inductive heating process.

And then especially for Mars there is the notion of underground habitat space, and also under ice water reservoirs.

This does not preclude transparent structure method on the surface.

I am going to rest for a bit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-28 09:58:07)

Void · 2022-11-28 10:38:55

So, on Mars you might maintain a reflective white or mirrored, surface on the ground. Wind borne dust will be a problem, and so that has to be mitigated.

For parts or North America, snowfall may do as the reflector, so solar may be augmented by noon sun reflecting from the snow onto the panels.

This query may be good: "North American solar energy map"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=North%20A … cc=0&ghpl=

So snow reflection may be assistive, but of course the land of the midnight sun, is also the land of the noonday night.

This one seems of value: https://solargis.com/file?url=download/ … t=solargis

Well, this one has monthly for the USA, it seems: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html

Very good, so it does seem to show that for higher latitudes during July more sun, as we would expect. The sun gets higher in the sky, and the days are longer.

So, to be able to stuff all that summer energy into an Eavor well system may indeed yield a favorable result!

Done.

I will be away for a number of hours.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-28 10:54:44)

Void · 2022-11-28 21:52:05

Alright, I have been thinking on it some more, and also studying the Eavor information.

They do have a special fluid, mix, I think but they do mention Propane and Butane.

Propane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane
Quote: Boiling Point:

−42.25 to −42.04 °C; −44.05 to −43.67 °F; 230.90 to 231.11 K

Quote: Melting Point:

−187.7 °C; −305.8 °F; 85.5 K

Butane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane
Quote: Boiling Point:

−1 to 1 °C; 30 to 34 °F; 272 to 274 K

Quote: Melting Point:

−140 to −134 °C; −220 to −209 °F; 133 to 139 K

Temperatures of Mars:
https://www.weather.gov/fsd/mars#:~:tex … ert%20like.
Quote:

Temperatures on Mars average about -81 degrees F. However, temperatures range from around -220 degrees F. in the wintertime at the poles, to +70 degrees F. over the lower latitudes in the summer. Various probes over the past few decades have found the surface of Mars to be rather desert like.

So, an Eaver fluid mix may not freeze even in the winter at the poles, at least the Propane. Probably the mix would not freeze, I am supposing.

Thats -140 C to 21.1111111 C, converted for you metrics.

So, now if we have vertical East-West oriented panels, with a reflector on soil or ice, if radiator methods were included, the structures could mutually exist elevated against gravitation. And it might be nice to integrate a microwave rectenna into that as well, for an additional energy function and even more strength, perhaps.

I have this then:

OK, so if this is over an ice-covered body of water, the device would be replicated as needed.

Of course, it could also be over just icy permafrost, or dry permafrost, or any solid surface.

If it does have solar panels, radiator functions, and rectenna functions it can then work with solar, geothermal, geostored, nuclear, and solar orbital both microwaves and mirrors in orbit.

Not bad I feel.

This again is the article about vertical solar panels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxW4x86mpLk

So, we can anticipate heating a geostorage method underground, and perhaps also have geothermal.

Geostorage may be fed from collected electrical energy, and nuclear, and by its nature in some circumstances geothermal energy.

And we may perhaps span between as much as -140 C and whatever the geostorage/geothermal temperature is.

Of course I will want to consider other worlds, including the Earth.

But it is late.

Perhaps more tomorrow.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-28 22:32:15)

Calliban · 2022-11-29 07:22:18

Void, some interesting ideas. Essentially, we could store summer heat in the ground and use it to generate 24/7 power using a vapour cycle. This would be especially useful on the moon, which has a two week long night.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-11-29 07:31:59)

Void · 2022-11-29 11:12:28

Well sure, that looks good Calliban. Interesting the Lunar Night is also its winter, sort of. Much shorter than the seasonal interruptions for Earth and Mars. And this system might also protect from Martian Dust Storms.

Carbon in the Lunar polar deposits do exist.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … r-craters/

Some polar solar locations for the Moon may only have a 4 day night. The upright panels will work well for morning and afternoon. But very light mirrors between the panels with actuation could divert noon light into them.

Done.

Calliban or others,

Perhaps you might have some insights on a problem.

My preferred way to warm the drilled tubes is to run electric current though the fluids in them. However Hydrocarbons are not conductive. The same is true of distilled water. But I did read that some types of salt could be included into some hydrocarbons, and so then they can become conductive. So, it may be possible.

I do fear that chemical reactions may degrade the system with liquid hydrocarbons with salts, and an electric current.

I guess the alternative is to heat the fluids directly and pump them into the tubes in the rock. That is not so bad actually.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-29 12:08:08)

Void · 2022-11-29 13:39:44

I ran into this today, and have been trying to consider how to integrate it into some of the materials in recent posts:

Query: "How Solar Panels Can Help Solve California's Drought, "Undecided with Matt Ferrell, Utube"

https://undecidedmf.com/how-solar-panel … s-drought/

OK, so that has stimulated me.

A warning to the reader. This will be very speculative, and simply conversation, which I hope may reveal something of value. I will not be focusing on the cost benefit ratio some of the time. More, the technical possibilities. If environmentalists get upset, remember, just because we possibly could do something does not say that we will.

In the tropics, trees are of a shape to receive most light from above. In high latitudes trees are more formed to receive light from a lower angle.

So, what will work in the north of the great basin, might work less well in the southern great basin. That is where I am looking just now. The "Great Salt Lake", and the "Salton Sea".

Sometimes my mind can recall technical information I learned a long time ago. For instance, I claim that I read that the Great Salt Lake if moisturized mostly by direct absorption of moisture from the winter air.

This article does not support that claim, but it is of interest: https://www.eenews.net/articles/great-s … r%20supply.

This is interesting: https://www.upr.org/utah-news/2021-09-1 … for-utahns

So dust from evaporated basins can be a problem, I believe that the Aral Sea has this problem as well.
https://news.miami.edu/stories/2022/09/ … -lake.html

So, OK, this finally supports my memory to a degree: https://techiescientist.com/does-salt-absorb-water/
Quote:

So coming to our question, can salt absorb water? Yes, salts strongly absorb water. Salt compounds and water are polar in nature, so the force of attraction between them is quite strong. Salts that can absorb water are called hygroscopic. Above the 75% relative humidity, salt becomes deliquescent ie; it absorbs so much amount of water that it forms a solution.

Another factor I recall is that dropping air temperature by about 20 degrees F, doubles the Relative Humidity. So, the temperature of the salty water will matter to the film of air over it as to if it will absorb or evaporate water.

6.66666667 degrees C?

So, where I am going of course is a partial covering of the lake, to reduce its temperature, and to extract solar energy, and to reduce evaporation and promote deliquescent activity. But the Great Salt Lake would simply be a possible example. What people actually decide to do is their problem, not mine. I am simply speculating.

I suspect that vertical double-sided solar panels might be good. The reflections from the water would help to power them in the mid-day. So, in the day they would provide some shade cooling. In the night, they may draw heat out of the lake and reject it to the universe. If it were economical, it might even be possible that these devices would have a circulating fluid in them that rises when warmer and falls when cooler.

A more active, (And expensive) system might use refrigeration/heat pumping to extract heat from the water and reject it to the air from the solar panels. Obviously, there is a conflict between hot solar panels in the sunlight, and the notion of using them as radiators, so then that may imply electrical energy storage. I did not say economic, I said speculation.

Benefits of vertical panels might be protection from precipitants, relative to horizontal panels. But they may be more of a problem for wind.

So, the idea then is cold salty water which can absorb moisture from much warmer air.

The amount that this would be compatible with things like brine shrimp and the microbes they feed on and the birds that feed on the brine shrimp could be a concern.

So then going away from something that is "Natural" could you make a super cold and salty pond in the great basin, and collect atmospheric water? Maybe.

I will leave the masters of the Great Salt Lake to have a ruckus or two or more about this.

Now then let's consider the Salton Sea, which is not really "Natural" in this current instance.

It has salt to export. And if you make a salt pond, with cold water, it might be possible to absorb water from the atmosphere. And of course I am contemplating extracting heat from it, and pushing it into a Eavor type underground geostorage/geothermal system.

In this case plenty of solar power from solar panels that also shade the pond. Then active cooling of the solar panels, and the storage of the heat into underground radiators. Then lower grade stored heat. Another network could have higher temperature heat. The big hope then would be to extract a useful amount of energy to a purpose. Either to heat something or hopefully electricity. This then would allow the export of salt from the Salton sea to such machines.
And if you can extract fresh water from your brine condenser, you might be able to have potable water for usage.

So, it may be that some variation of these could work somewhere on the Planet Earth.

I also am thinking of doing similar for Mars. But that is a whole nother thing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 11:58:43)

Void · 2022-11-30 11:08:28

I feel that I should go on a bit, and this section being Terra formation, I guess I will move in that direction for both Earth and Mars.

So, for Earth at least I recall that there is a cycle which can be established in some places that are semi-arid, where you may plant vegetation, and that vegetation will cause the sky to cool, and that would better promote rain. So, a sort of feedback loop.

So, I guess I am thinking of this as positive feedback: https://biologydictionary.net/positive-feedback/

But there are limits to coping for such vegetation planted as the "Front-Line". And for every 1 CO2 molecule a plant pulls in 100 water vapor molecules are sacrificed to the atmosphere. (That is a recollection from a video I looked at recently).

So, if solar panels become the front line, then there is already some experience with this: https://unboundsolar.com/blog/understan … oil-health
Quote:

Understanding the Relationship between Solar Panels and Soil Health
Published on June 14, 2022

Quote:

Effects of Solar Panels on Water Distribution
Significant research has studied the interaction of PV arrays and soil health.

Multiple studies confirm that soil under ground-mounted panels holds more moisture than the surrounding soil.
Also, plants growing there produce a cooling effect, which helps solar panels operate more efficiently.
Solar panels’ effect on soil moisture can help increase energy independence and reduce water consumption while boosting crop yields.
Another area to examine is the redirection of runoff from panel surfaces.
When channeled properly, this rainwater can be used for irrigation, further reducing demands on your farm.

I tend to like the idea of the vertical mount east-west solar panel method.

So, then solar panels being an electrical source, some excess can then go to Geostorage locations to promote stored heat. Also in the Great Basin, it seems that there may better geothermal potentials.

So, the solar panels will use direct radiation and convective air flow cooling. It is not expected to be involved very much in evaporative cooling.

So, to cool the sky, the idea is to absorb wavelengths that would heat the sky, and to emit wavelengths that are less likely to heat the sky. If the solar panel is 25% efficient, actually I expect that alone cools the sky as light is absorbed to provide electricity. But additional pigments might be added to the panels to absorb what might be passed to the sky, that would be a problem. Wavelengths that react with the substances up there where you want the clouds to form.

It is not clear how Eavor rejects heat. I presume whatever heat exchanger they may want. to use.
If the solar panels would have radiators incorporated into them, then that might be a way, and it would be radiative, and convective cooled but probably not evaporatively cooled.

So, then the question of what is under the "Frontline" solar panels. Plants that need fresh water are one option.
But what about plants that tolerate salt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_tolerance_of_crops

So, if the panels cool the ground, and salt is in the soil, then absorption of water into the salts may be possible at times.
What plants may tolerate that level of salt water; I do not know.

Here is a reference: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/soil-salini … 20Moderate

Anyway, that is a passing interest for me. I will presume that very little domestication of such crops has been done.

And then I suppose in some circumstances it might be possible to maintain shallow water under the Frontline solar panels. Perhaps some existing ponds or lakes, maybe those could be expanded out if evaporation is suppressed, and if the salt water is cooler as a result, it might be that in some cases moisture could be absorbed directly out of the atmosphere, into the salt water.

------
Going to Mars, it might be possible to similarly cool the ground in that manner, and to allow condensation of frost under the assembly. That might be a way to collect water, but in all honesty, I think that ice deposits are in most locations, or the bulk of them.

So, that is a start for Mars. I think it might be helpful to maintain a reservoir covered in ice by having Frontline solar panels, probably vertical.

A concern has existed that liquid water would absorb the atmosphere into rocks. That may be true, but it may also be true that methods to extract atmosphere from Rocks and Water itself, will balance that out.

So, the bottom water for such lakes can be warm if it has a salt gradient to prohibit water convection.

So, if a Geostorage/Geothermal heat source were to boil a fluid, then that fluid could pass through the bottom waters to cool off, and then though the solar panels, if those solar panels had a radiator function included. This would be a vapor fluid.

In a contradiction of sorts, the fluids condensed in the solar panels might be preheated in the warm bottom waters and then sent to the additional heat of the Geostorage/Geothermal functions. This would be a liquid fluid.

I think that is OK and sensible. I will consider it a bit more.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 11:55:38)

Void · 2022-11-30 12:00:31

I think I made a mistake in post #643, saying that 20 degF(as a span) =6.66666667 degrees C?

It has been a while.

The conversion of a span, I think would be 20/9 =(2.222222222222222) times 5=11.11111111111111 degC.

Perhaps that is correct, so then ~20 F or ~11 C drop in temperature will double the existing Relative Humidity.

Slap me if you need to on that.

If that is true, the existing humidity at the Great Salt Lake would be 36%???

So a temperature drop of the magnitude above would get it to 72%, which is almost enough for salt water to pull moisture out of the air (Maybe). I don't know if they want to cool off their lake that way though. Not my problem.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 12:06:32)

Void · 2022-11-30 19:37:40

Well as for vertical solar panels with a radiator in them, it seems reasonable to suppose that if they are shedding heat at night, they would up to a point protect crops between the panels from frost. That could be of some benefit.

That does kind of suggest some kind of a greenhouse with the panel/radiator as part of the support means. But then you reduce the amount of sunlight that would get to the panels themselves, and also make it harder for the radiator to shed heat. But never say never, ever.....

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 19:42:32)

Void · 2022-11-30 19:46:10

I found this today: Query: China Reveals Plans To Develop a Solar Power Plant In Space! "The Space Race"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ch … &FORM=VIRE

This also:
https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/3 … in%20space.

https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/3 … imited.htm

The thing I like about it just now, is that I think that if a multiple method power system(s) were possible, then the space based solar power plants might be able to point to various receivers, as might be desired.

If energy was geostored, then if one system was low on energy, then it could be topped off with space solar microwaves, I would think.

While of course this would be good for Earth, I also think that it would help out with Mars a lot.

While flash nuclear bombs might vaporize some of the polar areas, microwaves might penetrate the ice, and melt water and allow rivers to flow out from under the ice caps. The rivers would be ice covered for sure, but this is a possibility. Such a thing could actually create and maintain ice covered seas at the poles, perhaps.

And then with Geostorage/Geothermal, high temperature steam might be stored underground under that. Some of that energy might come from the orbital solar facilities, by way of microwaves.

And that does not forbid the making of "Domes" or something more practical, so that people could be in sunlight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 20:06:50)

Void · 2022-11-30 21:15:19

Well, this showed up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmjM1EvQV4
Quote:

Inside the $4 Billion Massive TerraPower Plant: Bill Gates' Secret Nuclear Project
Bill Gates BuzzNew

What caught my attention is that they have thermal storage, in salts like some solar projects. This then might also be fitted in with geostorage/geothermal and handling variable loads.

I try to keep an open mind.

I think that it is important to "Exercise" each energy technology, and so build up skills with them, rather than to pick a favorite, and become specialized. We absolutely will want nuclear fission in space and of course Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 21:19:06)

Void · 2022-12-03 14:49:59

I guess I have my eyes on water vapor as a greenhouse gas for Mars at this point.

The Topic: "Index» Not So Free Chat» When Science becomes perverted by Politics." up to post #645 at this time, seems to offer support that water vapor is a very important greenhouse gas for Earth. 70% of the greenhouse gas is said to be water vapor for Earth.

The ability of Mars to host water vapor at this time is suppressed, I feel. At night at least at the surface Relative Humidity approaches 70%-100% at times, at least in some places. But then this may drain some of the water that is in the upper atmosphere.

Of course, the polar winters also suck water vapor out of the atmosphere of Mars. And any water vapor that gets up higher where it cannot condense due to low pressure probably gets split into Oxygen and Hydrogen by the solar flux and it's hard U.V. spectrum portion.

Some methods that might get more water vapor up there, could be adding dust to the polar caps in spring, so that sunlight will cause a greater evaporation of it, and also perhaps to have solar power satellites in orbit, with microwave beams, or perhaps lasers. These might heat the air column in spots so that moist air from lower down could be pulled up into the upper atmosphere.

The hope would be that this in turn would both create a greater greenhouse effect in the Martian atmosphere, and also high-altitude clouds.

The hope would be to create a "Cloud Diode". My definition of that is where the water vapor up high repeatedly condenses into ice fog at night, and serves as a blanket to hold in heat, and that it would perhaps evaporate during the day, and provide a greenhouse effect.

Here is a query phrase for the high-altitude clouds: "High Altitude clouds kept Mars warm"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=High+Alti … 0d63aab493

And a specific response: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … %20Systems. Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds May Have Warmed Early Mars

There may be other ways to increase water levels in the high altitudes.

Nucleon points may matter. It may be possible to inject these into the high atmosphere as well to promote ice fogs. A certain size and substance may matter. Of course, Phobos and Mars itself could be a source.

If enough warming were to occur is possible that more of the dry ice in the polar ice caps could be kept in a vapor phase and increase the atmospheric pressure. The use of small amounts of selected greenhouse gasses might also help of course.

If it is decided to do this, it is thought possible that Mars could support temporary melt streams. This could be bad, for loosing atmosphere to bond with sediments. But the introduction of water to the upper atmosphere will lead to an increase of Oxygen in the atmosphere and maybe for a short bit Hydrogen could also function as a greenhouse gas. Hydrogen will tend to float off into space though.

If an artificial magnetic field were imposed, then perhaps the Hydrogen might linger a bit longer.

If a magnetic field were created with the dust of Phobos, that might feed into the introduction of nucleation points to the upper atmosphere of Mars to create high altitude clouds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-03 15:08:21)

Calliban · 2022-12-05 04:52:50

How to conquer the entire universe with Von Neuman machines.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fVrUNuADkHI

Quite an old idea. Technology seems to be bringing us closer to it. The idea is simple. Truly self replicating machines would allow a technological civilisation to spread throughout the universe, by launching seed machines to other stars using coil gun accelerators, at a significant fraction of C. The expansion of the universe actually provides braking for probes dispatched to very distant galaxies. When the probes arrive, they build space stations and factories, and grow human beings from stored genetic codes. This is how humanity could conquer the universe at a low energy cost.

I put this topic under 'terraforming' because that is likely to be one of the first applications of Von Neuman machines. Terraforming planets on human timeframes, requires huge amounts of energy and infrastructure. Not really possible until we produce robots that can build other robots. Of course, by creating a truly self replicating machine, we also run the risk that they will become the ultimate vermin of the universe.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-05 04:56:08)

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