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#351 2022-07-03 19:18:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I can recognize this as valuable potential.

Yes, any chances are worth hope.

I understand that we exist in a reality of the vortex. we siphon our life force from it.  It is the life giver.  And in reality no less the fision.

I can hear and see.

Done.


Done.

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#352 2022-07-03 19:19:28

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,241

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void,

You can join if you want to, as well.

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#353 2022-07-03 19:23:38

kbd512
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Posts: 6,241

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

C'mon guys, have a meeting of the minds.  Talk to each other for a change instead of typing on a keyboard.

Human-to-human interactions are not quite as scary as they're made out to be.

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#354 2022-07-03 19:24:53

kbd512
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Posts: 6,241

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Details are here (scroll to the bottom of the page):

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9753&p=15

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#355 2022-07-03 19:27:15

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,232

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

kbd512 wrote:

Calliban,

If you're still online right now, then you could join the NewMars Nightowl web session, if you want to.

I may attend the next one.  I can't afford too much time right now.  But I am hoping to take some leave over the next few days.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#356 2022-07-03 19:28:47

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,241

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban,

Okay.  At some point it would be good for you and Void to actually talk to each other to discuss these ideas.

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#357 2022-07-03 19:40:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,803

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

To keep water under an ice sheet requires the water to have no contact with the sheet and to be isolated by a volume of lower than mars air pressure. Otherwise they need to be very thick...

Beneath its ruddy layer of dirt is a sheet of ice 300 feet (90 metres) thick that gives the landscape a blue-black hue.

PIA00407-16_1024.jpg

On Mars, the polar ice caps are called the Planum Australe (southern) and the Planum Boreum (northern). The Martian ice caps are made of water and carbon dioxide about 3 kilometers (1.9 miles) thick.

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#358 2022-07-04 07:18:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Thank You for the invitation kbd512.

I will consult with people I know who do similar things, and see if I can rig up for it in a while.  I turned into a real luddite sort of when I retired, as my previous employment sort of tired me of computer tech as entertainment.

Here and there it is possible that some person(s) might benefit the objective with exchange of ideas.

Spacenut.  Thanks for the link.  I have had notions of artificial lakes and maybe even seas, and it still could be an option.

What excites me even more though would be regions of soft rocks like Sandstone, or Salt Domes under such a layer of ice.

Now that we think there exists a chemical path to agriculture that is more than goop foods, I would think that a system of chambers and tunnels under such ice could become very large, and a happy and comfortable place for people to live.

And that does not stop people from building small arena's, glassed over so to speak, where they can be in natural sunlight or under the stars in park like conditions.

Done.

Making some corrections they will be bold type, had some home repair activities going on so I was in a hurry.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-04 08:56:43)


Done.

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#359 2022-07-04 07:42:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Scott Manley briefly talks about the Terran-R.

I am rather excited for that "Mini-Starship", as I can see that it would be filled with propellants, perhaps by far less Starship tankers, than a Starship mission beyond LEO would need.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Re … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

Relativity's Mini Starship Gets Major Deal and Everybody Is Launching Rockets - Deep Space Updates

I do like the Starship, and hope that it will do everything SpaceX plans for it.

But I also feel that a little more could be done to think about Cargo ships, that can use Slo-Mo methods, and perhaps in the case of Mars, Ballistic Capture, if that turns out to be worthwhile.

Eventually Starships and Mini-Starships specifically tuned for the Martian environment, could be developed to communicate cargo from orbit to the ground.  Similar for the development of the Moon perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-04 07:45:53)


Done.

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#360 2022-07-05 08:53:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Spacenut provided this linke in post #357: https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid

I am just now thinking of an expanding system of tunnels at the bottom of the ice layers, where water is harvested and conveyed to a distribution system beyond the ice slabs.  Probably towards low latitudes and altitudes.

The point is these tunnels would yield water, and perhaps provide access to minerals, and the tunnels themselves though cold, could be a passage for the movement of vehicles.  Perhaps on ice, as I think (th) once suggested, or on wheels.

And yes, I still have my silly ideas about canoes and canals.

Booting up a new economy on an alien planet, may find use for both tunnels and canals.

We really don't need to zoom through tunnels at hundreds of miles per hour.  Patient robots and efficiency of movement might be very important.

Thats' a start.

Done.


Done.

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#361 2022-07-05 10:29:20

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re #360

Thanks for mention of ice "rails" in paragraph 3.

Your vision (conveyed through words) ended up in my mind as a question: would a luge design work?

If a tunnel were built with a slight downward slope, it might allow sleds packed with goodies to travel rapidly over many kilometers, and accumulate enough momentum to rise most of the way up to the surface at the far end.

Some clever engineering (and precision excavation) might yield a transportation system that is fast and ** very ** efficient.

Because you are one of the few NewMars members who have demonstrated visual artistry, I am hoping you might be tempted to show us a side view of such a tunnel system on Mars.

(th)

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#362 2022-07-05 17:24:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

(th) I am having some personal issues at this time.  Not immense, but troubling.  I will seek to indulge your request if I at some future time, it seems to be of any use to anyone.

No big deal, I already know what I have to do about personal issues, and will do, but, I will be less than easy just now.  I don't really think I have much to offer in regard to illustrations anyway.

But it can be in interesting path to work for.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-05 17:25:11)


Done.

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#363 2022-07-05 17:25:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,803

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

What has landed in the darker areas have been viking 1, pathfinder and opportunity rover. of which we do have lots of images from them.

Opportunity-Landing-Site_1024x1024.jpg?v=1447781701

Opportunity rover tracks at ridge of small crater and dune that have a blue hue to it.

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#364 2022-07-06 09:56:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have posted this elsewhere, but I don't mind thinking of it here in relations to possible visits to Mars, Phobos, and Deimos:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Two Blue Origin employees building Jeff Bezos' worst nightmare! - Relativity Space!
YouTube · 30,000+ views · 23 hr ago · by The Angry Astronaut

At some point, a question can occur: "If we can do it, should we do it?".

The point is yes we could turn all the ice on Mars into liquid water, and store it in containments that are appropriate.   But for what purpose?
Are we going to grow food in them?  How much food is needed?  How much Oxygen?


Well, if a planet of billions of people maybe eventually all of it, but not for a very long time.

Tunnels in the ice could have uses, for instance as a radiator, or to grow crops in special tents.

Access to a particular mineral would be the more sensible notion, and a transport corridor between points 'A' and 'B' is another useful option.

Flowing melted water towards the equator for use might also be valuable.

But, otherwise, if there is sandstone in proximity of a water resource, then that could be very much more valuable for habitat locations.

If there were oceans and seas at times, when they dried up did it create salt deposits/Domes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_dome

I am not going to claim petroleum on Mars, but if there has been Methane, just maybe a salt dome can hold a lot of it.

Apparently a salt dome is known of on Mars: https://oilonmars.blogspot.com/#:~:text … 0particles.
Quote:

There is crude oil on Mars !

Within the collapse alcove of the giant Hebes Mensa salt dome on Mars, there is a feature called the "Oil Spill" (Adams et al., 2009). According to these researchers the fluid consists of liquid brines that have been coloured black by dark dust particles. However, - this cannot be true.

I am not interested in getting into a silly argument that there cannot be oil on Mars.  I don't know what that "Spill" is, and cannot know until it might be investigated scientifically.  I do care that there is a salt dome.

I anticipate that there could be many in the Nothern Hemisphere, and perhaps Hellas.

The chemicals in the salts may be of value, and if there is Methane, of course that also, and then you could carve lots of habitat into a salt deposit.


Images of Salt caves, natural and carved, I guess: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Sa … HoverTitle

Polish Salt Caves: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Po … HoverTitle

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-06 10:20:52)


Done.

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#365 2022-07-07 06:38:46

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Before working with the Mid-Latitude ice slabs, it does appear that there might be one in the Valles Marinaris, also, apparently a salt dome, and Sandstone, and a thicker puddle of atmosphere to try to land in.

But I believe that all of these ice slabs can be very good turf to expand into eventually.

I will put this link from Spacenut here again, so that I can quote it.
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid
Quote:

The slope rises as high as London's Big Ben tower. Beneath its ruddy layer of dirt is a sheet of ice 300 feet (90 metres) thick that gives the landscape a blue-black hue. If such a scene sounds otherworldly, it is. To visit it, you'll have to travel to Mars.

So, that thickness should give ~3 bars pressure, but no actually if only the ice is considered, then .9 * 3 bars gives a corrected value of 2.7 bars pressure.  But then there can be regolith on top, as the overburden, so that might push it in the direction of 3 bars again.

Perhaps a bit like a lava tube, I anticipate that a trick could be that you distribute excess regolith from a donor site and pile it thicker in certain places, this would make more pressurization, and perhaps protect from a "Blowout", if an ice tube is being pressurized.  Measures might also be needed to avoid cave-in's.

So, possibly the methods to tunnel under rivers, may relate partially to working with these slabs: https://radiolab.org/episodes/99930-bla … -and-river
Quote:

NOV 3, 2010

Surviving a Blowout Under the East River

In our Cities episode, Jad tells the story of Marshall Mabey, a sandhog who was working to dig a subway tunnel under the East River in 1916. In order to keep the tunnel from collapsing under the weight of the riverbed and river, compressed air was pumped into the tunnel. One day in February, Mabey looked up and saw a crack--which meant he was in trouble. Before he and his co-workers could plug the growing crack, the pressure from the compressed air rushed through it--causing what's known as a blowout. The escaping air rushed through the hole, through the muck and mud of the riverbed, through the river itself, and shot into the air...sucking Mabey along with it before spitting him back in the water near a pier. Here's a link to an account from a New York Times article from 1916, in which Mabey describes the unbelieveable experience (which killed the other men standing next to him). If you haven't listened to our Cities episode yet, you can hear Mabey's story in the tunnels piece of the episode here.


So, air pressure can be used to order to keep tunnels from collapsing, but of course the above shows how that can go wrong.

Never-the-less, I think it can be said that these ice slabs may offer forms of relative mercy from the typical Martian surface environment.

The way I am looking at it is these ice slabs can be tunneled into to produce water to use and transport, and then somehow to make something useful out of the tunnels themselves.  It remains to be seen what sort of "Art" for working with them could be developed.

I guess I need breakfast.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-07 06:59:31)


Done.

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#366 2022-07-07 08:16:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, per request of (th): Psyscdu.png

As a transport method, the dark blue could actually be liquid water with ice on top of it or at times it might have the ice melted, and so allow some type of watercraft.

I am starting to think that the thing to do to obtain water, is to melt a pool, near but not attached to the ice tube.

Then you could pump perhaps 2/3 of the water out, into the "Canal/Ice Tube", and still have a considerable amount of water/ice in that location.

I am actually warming up to or freezing to the notion that it might be better to have sleds for traffic, on top of the ice.  Rather than to have open water.  I guess I think that batteries and periodic charge stations would power the moving elements of this scheme.

It may be that something like Pykrete could be the liner for the upper parts of the tubes.  Maybe Bamboo or Hemp fibers?

The white area in the tube could allow the transport of Air, Oxygen or other gasses from one location to another.

The required pressure to deal with Tripple point of water will be rather low, but it may be that the pressures will be higher, if that is desired and helpful.

So, then a water empire. smile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire
Quote:

Hydraulic empire
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Not to be confused with Maritime power or Thalassocracy.
A hydraulic empire, also known as a hydraulic despotism, hydraulic society, hydraulic civilization, or water monopoly empire, is a social or government structure which maintains power and control through exclusive control over access to water. It arises through the need for flood control and irrigation, which requires central coordination and a specialized bureaucracy.[1]

Often associated with these terms and concepts is the notion of a water dynasty. This body is a political structure which is commonly characterized by a system of hierarchy and control often based on class or caste. Power, both over resources (food, water, energy) and a means of enforcement such as the military, is vital for the maintenance of control.

In general, I think that the water would be transported to locations where agriculture of some sort was favored, or for the production of fuels and plastics.  I guess.

I guess a water works, is important enough.

And in the tubes, if it is desired to grow things in the water under the ice, that might be an option.  Chemical or artificial lights.

Some useful organisms would do OK with near freezing liquid water and an energy source of some kind.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-09 17:29:35)


Done.

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#367 2022-07-08 11:09:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just now I am considering alternatives to the notion that access to Mars will be "Only" by Starship 1.0.

Here I believe I am also using some of Dr. Zubrin's thinking, and then adding a lot of mine.

I am first of all wondering about the combination of Starship 1.0 and Terran-R, with the possibility of Starship 2.0 as one way cargo transfers.

I think I have also indicated that I would like to see solar driven cargo transfers, and also Electric propulsion methods included where it can make sense.

For the moment what I have in mind at it's core would be;
1) Land a bunch of SpaceX Starships with Cargo.  Most ships will stay on Mars, but perhaps one or so might return to Earth eventually if needed.
2) Send a Starship and a Terran-R to Mars with crew.  The Starship will not land but do a 2 year free return, upon approach of Mars.
3) The crew will attempt to land in the Terran-R.

On the way, it may be possible that the crew will mostly be in the Starship for life support.  But when within weeks of Mars, some attempt might be made to acclimate at least some of the crew to artificial gravity, perhaps by spinning the Terran-R around the Starship.  Probably all of the crew will then attempt to land using the Terran-R, unless it is necessary to do an abort and ride the free return.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-retu … an%20abort.
Quote:

It takes 250 days (0.68 years) in the transit to Mars, and in the case of a free-return style abort without the use of propulsion at Mars, 1.5 years to get back to Earth, at a total delta-v requirement of 3.34 km/s. Zubrin advocates a slightly faster transfer, that takes only 180 days to Mars, but 2 years back to Earth in case of an abort.

The Terran-R will only need to do full life support for a relatively small period of time as there should be life support already available on Mars using the Cargo Starships.

In the case of a successful landing, then a possibility can exist to only have to fill the Terran-R with propellants.

My feeling is that once they landed, if all had gone well, a Starship with nuclear power would have cooked up some tanks of Liquid Oxygen and Carbon Monoxide, drawing from the atmosphere of Mars.

This then would allow the use of those gasses for whatever, and then I think that some method could be used to combine CO with Hydrogen from water, to make the Methane.

I suppose that that step could be done with solar or nuclear electricity.

About a Mini-Starship: http://themisfortuneteller.com/Reading% … rship.html
Quote:

[6:31] Now, Starship, if you think of it as an exploration vehicle, his architecture is sub-optimal and having to refuel a whole big Starship on Mars to send it back. I think they should develop a miniature Starship sized to be about the upper stage of the Falcon 9 for the return vehicle. But if we’re talking colonization and you’re sending lots of Starships to Mars and probably just sending back one- in- ten, because with colonization, you want to be sending a lot of people to Mars and only the pilots and a few other people want to come back. So if you have a Starship on Mars, leave it there. Especially if you are mass-producing them on Earth, that’s an apartment house on Mars. And the propulsive parts of it are, you know, a hundred tons of high-grade stainless steel, which can be turned into almost anything using 3D-printing, so you have all sorts of raw materials to make anything you want on Mars, available straight away. Eventually, of course, we’ll make iron and steel out of Martian iron ore. But to produce high-grade stainless steel, you know, it took awhile before people were able to do that on earth. And to just have a handy supply of it, starting from the very first mission, it’s certainly attractive.”

Honestly I would be a little nervous about sending crew back with Terran-R only, but maybe it would not be all the crew.

But definitely, you could more easily fill Terran-R with propellants than a Starship 1.0 or 2.0.

And when it comes down to it why not send more than one Terran-R?  Redundancy, and also the extra might be able to do some scouting of this and that.

And if it really came down to it and you had to perhaps eventually you would be able to refill a Starship 1.0 when you got everything up and running full volume per propellant productions.

So, even in a bad situation there might be Options A and Options B.

It is never possible to completely remove all the danger.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-08 11:34:17)


Done.

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#368 2022-07-09 16:48:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to draw reference(s) from: "Index» Planetary transportation» Tunnel Transportation on Earth, Mars or Luna", posts #8, #9, and #10.

My narcissistic quote of my post smile

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,565
Email
I am pretty close in view to you.

One item that I care to note is that when dealing with freight and robots, it may be that speed is not so much a value.

Speed increases friction and so energy use, and requires a greater fitness of the machinery, that may have a cost.

Of course, people don't want to have their time wasted at slow speeds.

I feel the same thing can be true on Mars, and also in transit through the solar system.

Speed has value in the transport of people, but not so much in the transport of bulk freight, provided people don't run out of materials essential to continuous survival provisions.

Done.

I want to expand on both the notion of freight in interplanetary space, and also tunnels on Mars.

-------

For interplanetary travel, I do have an interest in electric rockets, and Magnetic plasma bubbles possibly a combination of both actually.
A bit like a boat that would have propulsion from a steam engine and sails.  I think it is important to realize that we have not completed the invention the best things yet.

I am interested in solar sails using photons, and also Laser propulsions of various kinds, but I think those may have further to go to reach practicality.

I do like Ballistic Capture of freight to Mars: https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … %20anytime.
Quote:

The idea is called ballistic capture. In a new study, researchers Francesco Topputo and Edward Belbruno propose that this approach would make Mars missions cheaper and more efficient. Whereas typical missions must be launched at an optimal time, when Earth and Mars are close together, ballistic capture missions could go just about anytime.

Ballistic Capture may remove the need for a heat shield.  In the case of Mars, there is a potential that both electric rockets and Plasma bubble drive may work close to the planet as there is no global magnetic field.

If these deliveries are one way for the most part, solar panels that supplied the electricity can then be repurposed to Mars and it's orbits.

It is possible that some of the other propulsion parts could be sent back to Earth, perhaps in a Starship.

Relativity Space (Terran-R), actually intend to 3D print spaceships on Mars itself.  If that is the case, then perhaps some of those can be specially tuned to the task of moving freight from Mars orbit to the surface.

I guess for Mars, to some degree perhaps Terran-R could be favored, as I believe that it will not suffer too much atmospheric drag going up but may have a better air braking situation than Starship, coming down.  But of course, you would want Starship(s), also especially for large items.  I am supposing that Terran-R will have a better ratio of surface area to weight/volume?  The Martian atmosphere being very thin, I would think that could be an asset.

I will make note that if Ballistic Capture method can be used "Just about any time", then the Terran-R's could do useful work around the clock to the degree that maintenance and planet conditions might allow.

It may be easier to have a maintenance enclosure for a smaller Terran-R, than a Starship 1.0 or 2.0.  I would suggest a vertical shaft in ice, with a lid that can be rolled on top of it to allow pressurization.

------

Now back to Para Terraforming Mars.  It is my view that for a long time, materials from Earth, perhaps delivered by the above, will be very important to Para Terraform.

But now about Ice Slabs, and probably Sandstone, Lava Tubes, and Salt Domes.

I guess I am getting tired but will say a little more (Covid is over, but I think I have some recovery to make still).

Where substantial slabs of ice reportedly cover 1/3 of the planet more or less, at the mid latitudes, and also I presume around the poles,
The hollowing out of them to harvest water, and low-grade improved volumes, still allows you to flow water to other locations and make extensions of the ice slabs, so that ice tubes might be used to carry freight, and water and perhaps gasses from city to city or productive facility.

This is sort of a minimal example.  But the more upgrading you do the more the costs of the materials to upgrade.

Psyscdu.png

And then I would like to think that a lot of city and facility might be in Sandstone or Salt Domes, under the ice slabs and tubes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-09 23:01:59)


Done.

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#369 2022-07-12 19:55:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

A reference/prelude for this post can be "Index» Not So Free Chat» Peter Zeihan again:" Posts #79-#84.

For #84, which is a strange post, my focus was on how I believe that the "Greens" are Ruler-Wana bees, and in general want servants below them and to obey them and do not really want technological/industrial people to defy them.  All other entities I may seem to have focused on are not a thing that I obsess about.

What I care for is actual attempts to solve our problems.  I do not care for people who simply want to have something to get in charge of. (And milk for power and possessions).

So, I do have some notions that I would like to speak of further.  They do parallel Fracking and also perhaps Geothermal.

I have hopes for this for both Earth and Mars.

While Fracking has been discovered to require best practices to avoid negative consequences, I am personally satisfied that it is being done well at this time, and the story of the "Greens' interference attempts, have been mostly put down.  I of a belief that foreign powers have assisted in trying to kill fracking, and also there are other powers within our country that for various reasons likely also tried to kill fracking.  To detail theories of who and why, is not important at this time.

The justification for geothermal energy, is typically that there should be enough heat in the ground to pay.  But what if you combine geothermal extraction with solar thermal storage?  Unlike geothermal, this might never run down, as it would be recharged episodically when the seasonal conditions permitted it.

Enhanced Oil and Gas extraction and also possibly the extraction of minerals and the generation of Hydrogen, could possibly be achieved within a set of methods.  Energy storage and a small amount of geothermal contribution may also be involved.

If this would work, it would be greener than the "Greens", and it might be practical.

So, when extracting oil from the frack zone very large amounts of brine also come up.  This cannot be disposed on land or surface water.  This is then disposed of down a well to a layer of rock.  In some places this can induce earthquakes.
I believe that it is now being avoided to do that.  In some cases, they just have to limit the volume of fluids to put down the wells.  Oklahoma is likely such a place.  A assistive method is to evaporate off some of the water.

If it were me, I would think to distill the brine to a higher concentration and also generate some condensate of water.  That condensate may have some use, at least as an industrial input.

The Oil companies are interested in selling Oil and to a lesser extent selling/disposing natural gas.

The situation where fluids come out of the ground and also are returned to another location in the ground suggests the possibility of a long-term heat sink.  Extra heat could come from wind power surges, and/or from solar thermal concentration methods.  If this is near users for electricity or perhaps even central heating, then such a heat storage, may be useful.  But what of locations where petrochemicals are not believed to be in the ground?  It could be that such a storage device, might be economically justified.  Really, I don't know.  It may be.

For this combinational system it may not be necessary to have as rich a geothermal reservoir as would be required to justify the drilling and such.

Fluids injected might include pressurized and dissolved CO2, and obviously water would be present as well as dissolved salts.  Such fluids also very hot may react with the rocks.  Not all rocks are the same, and the precise mix of the fluids may be tailored to induce a reaction(s).

In such an environment, if the rocks are not fully Oxidized, they may do so by pulling Oxygen off of water molecules, and perhaps also CO2 molecules.  This might liberate Hydrogen, and perhaps even create Methane, maybe even oils.

It is possible that some of the CO2 will be absorbed into the rocks, I am not sure.  All situations are not the same.

It is also possible that minerals might come out of the rocks and into the fluids, as a product that might be recovered as well.  No promises, just a notion.

------

Now, I am very familiar with the taconite processing methods that existed about 30 or more years ago.

It is my opinion that it may be possible that some of the tailings may be processed into a substitute for fracking sand.  I am not sure of that but suggest that it could be tried.

I think that is plenty, goodnight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-12 21:37:37)


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#370 2022-07-13 07:16:31

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now, still continuing with the flow previous, I am wondering about a couple of things.
1) Chemicals that you add or remove from the brine.  CO2, H2?
2) Radioactive chemicals you might add to the brine.

This will need some explaining.  Plutonium I believe is very dangerous and poisonous, so no to that.

Aluminum 26?  Maybe.

Level of compatibility with living things would be important.

So, a query: "Radioactivity feeds life under the sea floor."

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Radioacti … fe967ee4d3

A specific Response: https://news.softpedia.com/news/Natural … 20isotopes.
Quote:

They found a model which explains microorganisms' survival due to the natural radioactivity deep under the sea floor. This provides energy that breaks water apart in hydrogen and oxygen.

Radioactivity is produced by the decomposition of naturally occurring potassium, thorium and uranium isotopes.

This process can deliver sufficient energy for the microorganisms, making these communities independent from the Earth's surface.

So, whatever might be put into the saline aquifer, which does not communicate with fresh water aquifers, needs to not be toxic as a chemical, and also it seems to me that we would want it to cling to rock surfaces or be included into artificially created frack sand.  In general, we would probably not want to go back into solution either.

Where to get the "Stuff".  Maybe from radioactive wastes, but I think that might be expensive and hard to do safely.
Perhaps we can transmute Aluminum to Aluminum 26, maybe it would be something else.

Query: "using a nuclear fission reactor to transmute"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_t … es%20place.
Quote:

One type of natural transmutation observable in the present occurs when certain radioactive elements present in nature spontaneously decay by a process that causes transmutation, such as alpha or beta decay. An example is the natural decay of potassium-40 to argon-40, which forms most of the argon in the air. Also on Earth, natural transmutations from the different mechanisms of natural nuclear reactions occur, due to cosmic ray bombardment of elements (for example, to form carbon-14), and also occasionally from natural neutron bombardment (for example, see natural nuclear fission reactor).

Artificial transmutation may occur in machinery that has enough energy to cause changes in the nuclear structure of the elements. Such machines include particle accelerators and tokamak reactors. Conventional fission power reactors also cause artificial transmutation, not from the power of the machine, but by exposing elements to neutrons produced by fission from an artificially produced nuclear chain reaction. For instance, when a uranium atom is bombarded with slow neutrons, fission takes place. This releases, on average, 3 neutrons and a large amount of energy. The released neutrons then cause fission of other uranium atoms, until all of the available uranium is exhausted. This is called a chain reaction.

Query: "Aluminum 26"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium … gnesium-26.
Quote:

Aluminium-26 (26Al, Al-26) is a radioactive isotope of the chemical element aluminium, decaying by either positron emission or electron capture to stable magnesium-26. The half-life of 26Al is 7.17×105 (717,000) years. This is far too short for the isotope to survive as a primordial nuclide, but a small amount of it is produced by collisions of atoms with cosmic ray protons.[1]

Decay of aluminium-26 also produces gamma rays and x-rays.[2] The x-rays and Auger electrons are emitted by the excited atomic shell of the daughter 26Mg after the electron capture which typically leaves a hole in one of the lower sub-shells.

Because it is radioactive, it is typically stored behind at least 5 centimetres (2 in) of lead. Contact with 26Al may result in radiological contamination necessitating special tools for transfer, use, and storage.[3]

Quote:

Dating
Aluminium-26 can be used to calculate the terrestrial age of meteorites and comets. It is produced in significant quantities in extraterrestrial objects via spallation of silicon alongside beryllium-10, though after falling to Earth, 26Al production ceases and its abundance relative to other cosmogenic nuclides decreases. Absence of aluminium-26 sources on Earth is a consequence of Earth's atmosphere obstructing silicon on the surface and low troposphere from interaction with cosmic rays. Consequently, the amount of 26Al in the sample can be used to calculate the date the meteorite fell to Earth.[1]

Occurrence in the interstellar medium

The distribution of 26Al in Milky Way
The gamma ray emission from the decay of Al-26 at 1809 keV was the first observed gamma emission from the galactic center. The observation was made by the HEAO-3 satellite in 1984.[4][5]

The isotope is mainly produced in supernovas ejecting many radioactive nuclides in the interstellar medium. The isotope is believed to provide enough heat to small planetary bodies so as to differentiate their interiors, such as has been the case in the early history of the asteroids 1 Ceres and 4 Vesta.[6][7][8] This isotope also features in hypotheses regarding the equatorial bulge of Saturn's moon Iapetus.[9]

History

Aluminum 26 may not be something to use on Earth.  I don't know at this time what would be.  For Mars though with proper care it might work out.

Down the frack wells could also go catalysts.  The seafloor works better to generate Hydrogen from the radioactive decay than for just water.  So, it is thought that there are catalysts in the soil.

I think I have had a fun notion about the Magnetic field of Jupiter, and other planets.  Could you put Aluminum objects in orbit and let the be bombarded by radiation?  Would that create useful isotopes.  Might it help to alter the radiation environment?

What about our Van Allen belts?

Although it may be likely that certain parts of such an aquifer would host microbes, I am thinking of thermal conditions very hot, rocks started in a relatively reduced state per Oxygen, and then this radioactive decay, to splinter water molecules and perhaps also injected CO2 molecules, in hopes of producing H2 and CH4, maybe oils, maybe not oils.

I think that's plenty.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-13 07:46:30)


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#371 2022-07-13 18:02:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have had a further look around about Aluminum-26, and what I think I know is....
-It used to be thought that Aluminum-26 had to some from a supernova, so solar systems like ours might be rare.
-However, it appears that the process of the formation of the solar system, itself can generate it.
-The Earth's magnetic field mostly contains radiation from the sun, but it also has some Cosmic Rays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium … 0decreases.
So, it is created....
Quote:

Aluminium-26 can be used to calculate the terrestrial age of meteorites and comets. It is produced in significant quantities in extraterrestrial objects via spallation of silicon alongside beryllium-10, though after falling to Earth, 26Al production ceases and its abundance relative to other cosmogenic nuclides decreases. Absence of aluminium-26 sources on Earth is a consequence of Earth's atmosphere obstructing silicon on the surface and low troposphere from interaction with cosmic rays. Consequently, the amount of 26Al in the sample can be used to calculate the date the meteorite fell to Earth.[1]

And so, I have come to the conclusion, that if there were mudballs in the early solar system kept melted by the decay of Aluminum-26, I feel that just like the seafloor communities, this would also create chemicals for life to live on.

So, if then a solar system with life, did sling mudballs to other solar systems in a stellar nursery, a further spread of the infection of life could continue.

Even a frozen or mostly frozen mudball could also later infect other solar systems, if it were ejected from its parent solar system.

So, panspermia.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-13 18:08:09)


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#372 2022-07-14 07:42:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am just wanting to mention that if some are troubled, then radioactive materials do not need to be added, but their will still then be "Natural" radioactivity.

This is a fun word, Natural.

For instance the latest fun use of it is to make industrially produced Fertilizer a "SIN".

Sri Lanka, and the Netherlands are seeming to be suffering for that.  Don't let those people wreck "Your Town!".

Slash and Burn agriculture is not Natural, but these dopes seem to think that it is a good idea to injure productivity of agriculture.  One method is to prohibit industrial fertilizers and go back to feudalism.

But at least here in the USA, and I suspect many other more advanced economies, they are beginning to employ robotics, to limit the chemicals used and make it appropriate for a single plant.  That then can save on costs, and also reduces the chemical inputs.

So, given a choice don't let the Religious tell you how to farm, employ technology and science, and logic.  Just remember quite a few religious organizations think it is very good for your soul to suffer, a lot.

And if you dig, you will find that they would also like to own you as a servant.

Natural?  What is Natural?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-14 07:49:28)


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#373 2022-07-14 19:49:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, a new item.  The Earth is a world, and so is Mars, and there are several others possibly for this as well.  Well for part of it.

Breakthrough Wind Turbine Fixes Renewable's HUGE Problem!, Two Bit Da Vinci

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc0rF58pP3c
Quote:

Breakthrough Wind Turbine Fixes Renewable's HUGE Problem!

To be honest, I will have to see future articles that say that the wind turbines work as suggested, but I am very interested in the energy storage method for Mars and other worlds.

And I wish them success.

But the gravity batteries are what I am interested in.

The natural altitude differences on Mars might be employed.

But I am also considering shafts in soft materials, such as Ice, Sandstone, and Salt Domes.

Ice now interests me the most.

1/3 of the planet covered with ice slabs, ~300 feet thick per previous posts.

In post #357, Spacenut provided this: https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid
Quote:

The slope rises as high as London's Big Ben tower. Beneath its ruddy layer of dirt is a sheet of ice 300 feet (90 metres) thick that gives the landscape a blue-black hue. If such a scene sounds otherworldly, it is. To visit it, you'll have to travel to Mars.

So, this could be yet another situation where you might extract water from the ice and leave a shaft, and you might make a weight composed of permafrost/Pykrete, and then you would need cables, and motor/generator and supporting hardware, to make an energy storage device.  The gravity is less, but you eliminate the buoyance of water.  The travel distance may be shorter.  But the shaft could be at an angle.

OK, here is an illustration: Z05EiQo.png

I would imagine the weight to be on a skid, but really, just a possible version.

In Sandstone Shafts, or Salt Domes, the shaft might be vertical, but unless a cold temperature in the shaft, then the weight cannot be of frozen regolith.

It's a notion.  But so many of them could be built, and also at the same time to make the shafts in the ice, you are mining water.

And of course the polar ice caps themselves are thousands of feet thick.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-14 20:25:11)


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#374 2022-07-15 08:58:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

From "Index» Human missions» Starship is Go...", Post #1652:
Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,580
Email
Elon Musk's Genius Solution to Launch Starship from the sea...No More FAA, "GREAT SPACEX"

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+E … &FORM=VIRE
This is interesting of course, as the sea launch facilities may be in a more favorable location, and also might not be entangled in as much red tape.  And then insurance and lawsuits may be less of a concern.

OTEC, an energy manufacturing platform(s), are placed in a special slot in the weather between North and South Hemispheres, (Approximately), where Hurricane problems are much less.  So, Starship might do similar.

In the Pacific, I think this runs roughly from ~Panama, to a bit north of Papua New Guinea.  Somewhat south of the Hawaiian Islands.

I believe the ultimately SpaceX wants to produce its own Methane and Oxygen from so called "Green Energy".  I don't like that term, actually,

But I suppose tankers could deliver it to the platform, from locations in the Pacific.  Australia is likely great for Solar Energy, so, perhaps from there.

But I am not thinking that at first, they would do it that way.

So, I am thinking of propellants to orbit for this as you have the other benefits of the platform concept, and also the Equatorial spin.  The platforms could probably go on to the actual Equator, except for during the storm seasons.

After Breakfast, I intend to make some further comments on "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."
It will involve the concept of orbital propellant depots, and launching 1000 Starships almost at once, periodically to Mars.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10144&p=15  It will likely be post #374.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Today 08:34:18)

I am going to argue, for methods to Mars involving the Equatorial lifting of propellants, materials from the Moon, and an Oberth method involving the Moon.  But I need a rest just now.

So, the Pacific Ocean to orbit for materials might be a good possibility.

Typically it is said that it is not useful to use the Moon for going to Mars.  But I am thinking there might be a bit of a loophole.

The materials from the Pacific, if placed in an Elliptical Lunar Orbit, might await the arrival of more materials from the Moon.

Then after joining them , to  the same elliptical orbit, a launch from that orbit of the Moon using the Oberth Effect.

The Inputs from the Pacific and the Moon may also employ efficient low thrust methods, to get the materials into an orbit where the Oberth Effect might pay off.


But for the Lunar Materials you first need a high thrust method to get up to a minimal orbit.
Also to do the Oberth Maneuver, you might want rockets made on the Moon.

Query "Making Rockets from Lunar materials".

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Making+Ro … c92323bd95

Then you may or may not use a Ballistic Capture to Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-15 20:23:11)


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#375 2022-07-15 21:52:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,087

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, a little more about the just prior post.

Lifting materials, and in particular propellants to LEO, would be high thrust methods.  Lifting materials off from the Moon would likely be chemical rockets.

Then the desire might be to move these orbital masses to the same elliptical orbit around the Moon to get set up for the Oberth Effect.

Low thrust methods might be Electric Rockets, Solar Sails, or Magnetic sails.  Under the circumstances I am leaning towards Electric Argon Rockets for the low thrust method(s).

As I see it you are stretching a rubber band by placing mass in that Elliptical orbit of the Moon, with low thrust methods.

Where propulsion that uses solar panels suffers power drop, as the ship moves away from the sun, the Moon holds the propulsion device inside of it's gravity well, while you are accumulating orbital energy, which involves altitude and speed increases.  And if you can get propulsive devices from the Moon, into this assembly, then you can do a fast burn when at the low end of the elliptical orbit to harness the Oberth Effect.

The Argon to wind up the Lunar produced mass would come from the Moon, it can be hoped.  Also it may be possible to use chemical or hybrid rocket manufactured from the Moon materials for the Oberth burn.  But Hydro lox or even perhaps Metha lox might be included.

Just prior to the Oberth Burn, you might even include humans, but if you are going to go to a Ballistic Capture to Mars, then you need lots of radiation protection, and other means to maintain human health.  If this mass is very big, composed of needed hardware, then radiation may not be the usual big problem.

You might even keep the Electric Rockets with the mass to be used further.  Therefore, it would be good to have extra Argon from the Moon, presuming it can be had.

While you might finish with a Hohmann transfer of part of the object going to Mars, another part might go to a Ballistic Capture.  I am not sure that those two can be hosted on the same mission.

I do know that Ballistic Capture can be launched almost any time of the year.

In order to make all of this work you would need lots of production facilities on the Moon.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-15 22:08:24)


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