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#1 2021-09-10 06:15:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,942

Captain's Mast

NewMars is a very small vessel.

We have a small crew (contributing members) and four officers.

We have an Admiral-of-the-Fleet back at Headquarters, but otherwise we're pretty much on our own.

We ** do ** have a global audience, of all ages.  The only common characteristic of our global audience is the ability to read (or puzzle out) English.

Occasionally a member of the crew may ingest drugs or in some other way lose control of their behavior.

In the past (before I arrived) the officers banned crew for offences not recorded for posterity.

In light of recent events, I would like to offer a Captain's Mast procedure, in case a member must be given a Time Out due to drunken or otherwise impaired behavior.

The officers of NewMars are;

SpaceNut, Senior Administrator
kbd512, Junior Administrator
RobertDyck, Senior Moderator
tahanson43206, Junior Moderator

The procedure I would like to suggest would consist of:

An officer acting as prosecutor will initiate a complaint against a member.

The Prosecutor will call for a Captain's Mast proceeding.

In no more than one week, the officers will consider the request, and render a decision.

Depending upon the nature of the offense, and the judgement of the officers:

1) The Prosecutor will enact the penalty or...
2) An Administrator will enact the penalty
3) The member will be excused from penalty, but invited to avoid future misbehavior
4) The member will be excused from penalty

Provision for defense and for adjustment of penalty needs to be included in this concept.

(th)

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#2 2021-09-10 18:01:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,294

Re: Captain's Mast

The report post button is a first step to flag any content found to be not in line with a topic.
Then the newmars rules are brought into play for does the post as indicated in the report stand or is altered or removed or in some cases reposted via the copy of the quote which was done to another topic.
warning can be given in the post area as needed for rules but its still a grey area for free speech.

The warning if ignored can cause the user to be banned for the issue caused from the website for as little as a day to permanently with such cause that can not be tolerated.

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#3 2021-12-22 07:54:57

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,942

Re: Captain's Mast

The recent dust up between Calliban and clark can be compared to a passage from one of kbd512's posts about life aboard ship.

The dispute is over language.  That makes sense because this is a text based forum.

The conflict took place in the forum equivalent of the "rec room" in a small vessel (or a large one, for that matter).

It has moved out into the main lobby of the forum, and three members of the four member leadership team have offered posts.

I'd like to (and in fact will) add this item to next Sunday's Zoom session.

We (leadership) team have been avoiding the offensive language that occurs in the Chat by simply ignoring it ... not reading it.

We have a community to (try to) guide toward productive engagement with the Mars Settlement goal set that emanates from the Mars Society.

The Mars Society itself has no place for the kind of language that appears in the forum chat from time to time.

What makes this situation surprising is that the person who initiated offensive language objected when another member responded by calling it out.

It is entirely possible that the original speaker is totally unaware of the deeply offensive nature of the language. 

One of us (RobertDyck) has called for a way of dealing with situations like this short of banning members.

Ideally, we would find a solution that allows a member who is productive in Mars Settlement to (somehow) continue engagement with the group without deliberately (or accidentally) offending half the human race with unconscious attitudes.

(th)

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#4 2021-12-22 08:04:28

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,781

Re: Captain's Mast

Reposted from other thread.

Calliban wrote:

I have done nothing with the intention of provoking clark.  In fact until yesterday, I wasn't particularly aware of his existence.  I have nothing against the man, indeed I don't know him at all.  I believe that I have respected forum rules and I have not personally attacked other members or been insulting or threatening to anyone in particular.  But I don't think I can be responsible for whatever happens to trigger any man's personal neuroses.  It doesn't seem right to me that debate should be curtailed just to prevent one man from publicly misbehaving.  Surely that is his problem and not mine?

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me.  That is healthy and this board would be pointless without different points of view.  I have personally learned a lot from this board and there are many topics that have changed my mind on certain things.  I am not calling for any particular action - that is entirely for others to decide.  I am personally opposed to censorship, for what it is worth.  But I would point out that what Clark has written indicates more than just disagreeing.  He clearly cannot tolerate people that disagree with him and resorts to abusing anyone that utters a differing point of view.  That is different to just disagreeing and saying so.  It demonstrates deep seated psychological problems and frankly raises concerns around his mental health.  I hope that he at least talks to someone about this for his own sake, before things get worse for him.

When people like that hold sway over rules of conduct you end up living in a police state, where you go to prison just for saying things that other people might disagree with.  There is no compromise that can be reached with those people.  Freedom of speech is either something you have or something you don't have.  And without it, you do not live in a democratic state.  I live in exactly such a place, where political zealots were able to criminalise people simply for uttering the wrong opinion.  The same people that turned the UK into a police state are trying to do the same in the US, but are stiffled by the constitution, at least for the time being.  It was the absence of a constitution that made it so easy for these people to undermine democracy in Britain.  It should be a warning to everyone in the US.  And you should not heed anyone that tells you that discussing certain topics is off limits just to protect their feelings.  That is the first step on the road to serfdom; the road to a police state; the sort of place where you are not a person that is free to choose, but a resource to be used and a part within a machine.  If you want to know what that looks like, read up on 1980s East Germany.  And take a good look at what is happening to the UK, where many people now rot in prison not because of anything they did, but what they think and dared to say.  It is a dead society now and the next few decades will see its final destruction.  I hope the US can avoid that fate.

My issue has nothing to do with clark's opinions, which I welcome, but personal abuse.  I am not calling for any action against him.  I would simply rather he respects the spirit of democratic forum, which means discussing issues without personal slights.  Am I wrong in asking him for this much?

I cannot be held responsible for what you or others might personally find to be objectionable or 'deeply offensive'.  That is something that is unique to you and it shouldn't be my or anyone else's problem.  But we should be able to talk without throwing mud, would you not agree?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-22 08:10:12)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#5 2021-12-22 10:12:38

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

I've been here before. The bagels are great, but man, the line is always out the door.

"Captain's Mast". Lovely imagery. Look at my would be executioners. Look at your process. How very formal. Trappings of fairness. There can't be bias here.

If you gotta ban me, ban me. Your sandbox. You want me to hug it out with closet racists? I ask what is wrong with you.

This is text. Yet somehow with these digital words I've elicited a response. Am I really worth that? I think I am, but then again, I'm an emotional hot mess who clearly needs professional help, as diagnosed by a man-child suffering oppression in the UK because his country couldn't be bothered to have its own revolution (apologies to Guy Fox). But hey, I'm the only one throwing out personal insults, am I right?

In sum, Calliban is sorry for making a stink, doesn't think I should be banned, and I don't give a sh*t either way. Your honors, we await your wise decision. Space me or whatever,

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#6 2021-12-22 11:23:25

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

I am now well aware of how you two feel about each other.

I've requested that you two refrain from attacking each other as clearly, politely, and directly as I know how.

Can we please move on now?

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#7 2021-12-22 12:20:40

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

tahanson43206,

I'm not inclined to ban anyone at this point, but I do need the personal attacks to stop.  I would like to remove the posts and/or threads containing personal attacks, but will wait for agreement from SpaceNut, Robert, and you before proceeding.

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#8 2021-12-22 12:56:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,294

Re: Captain's Mast

Agreed some pruning is required and have move a parts and clarks topic created by caliban to the not so free chat area.

Posting in the meta area is intended to be positive commenting only for the individuals post of the topic labeling which have been made.

Aka Thumbs up acknowledgement...

This topic is to identify crossing the line which may and often will need reminding that free speech is not at all free.

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#9 2021-12-22 16:01:25

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

Lovely.

To stay on topic and glean what we might from this pitiful farce, you have taken the time tahanson43206 to outline a process to judge and execute the powerless while neglecting to consider a process or structure for those empowered to deliver your so called justice. Shall we all live in thrall to the council of 4? Whom do we prostrate ourselves to in the event of a split decision? Does a Senior Administrator have more discretion than a Junior Administrator? What of the power dynamic of Moderator vs Administrator? Who gets more of a say? Who gets to be more "right"? Who do we turn to if the council of 4 is an offender?

My point: Do us all a collective favor and just burn this thread for the bad idea it really is. If I'm out of line, you don't need to hold a vote or spin some theater to make yourself feel better. Just scold me or put me in time out- just like every other troll.

In my defense, I almost never detract from the topics in the MARS THEMED areas. This place allows a forum for politics and general free chat that runs counter to anything related to the overall purpose of the board. If people are going to take the time to express their views, then we all, collectively, have to expect that replies and reactions will be messy.

Anyways, thanks all for the stay of execution. I appreciate your patience and your forgiveness. We can share the dream of Mars, even if some of us would likely lock the other out on the outside of an airlock if given the chance.

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#10 2021-12-22 18:44:59

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

Do you feel as though I or any other New Mars Forums staff members have either treated you unfairly or marginalized you in some way?

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#11 2021-12-23 02:40:11

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

Yes. Entire threads devoted to me is unfair treatment. Talk of "what do we do with clark" is unfair treatment. Yes I recognize my own role in getting to this place.

I appreciate you kbd512, even if most of your world view is anathema to me. I appreciate you taking on the inglorious responsibility of moderating this site. I appreciate the sentiments, even if they are insufferably wrong, in trying to instill some type of judicial process here.

You are a good person, i think. If you think I cross a line, call me on it. I don't need a vote, which was my point. We don't need to make this bigger than it is.

My previous post was to only outline the absurdity of trying to systematize this situation.

You are a karate chopping gun toting texan, WTF are you doing even asking this kind of question? Thank you for being fair when you didn't have to be.

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#12 2021-12-23 13:45:47

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

What started this was done in public, so the administrative staff's response to it was also made public.  All opinions and responses between administrative staff were plainly made known to everyone, in written form, so that nobody was left guessing about whether or not personal animus or prejudices affected the outcome.  We haven't come up with a more impartial and transparent way to do this.  If you have ideas to improve the process, then you can submit those ideas and they will at least be considered by the administrative staff.

What parts of maintaining a modicum of civility in public discourse are insufferably wrong?

You've no doubt seen how the alternatives played out over the past year or two.  It wasn't pretty.  I don't expect people to agree with each other, but it can't devolve into personal attacks on a continual basis, or we are in much deeper trouble than we already are.  To hold civilization together, at some point you have to behave in a civil manner, which means treating others the way you would want to be treated.

Recall that I stated that everyone has agency and accountability.  If I had not asked the question, then it should have been obvious that those were empty words.  However, that is truly what I believe.  There is no other "version of me".  What you see is what you get.

You should join us on Sunday at 7PM one of these weekends, so that you have the opportunity to chat face-to-face with both the other members of the administrative staff and myself.  Most weekends, at least 3 out of the 4 of us are present.

Anyway, I hope you get to see or at least talk to your family over the holidays.

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#13 2021-12-26 13:37:43

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

I will address your only question since the rest of your lecture leaves little evidence that an alternate view would be heard.

"What parts of maintaining a modicum of civility in public discourse are insufferably wrong?"

Maintaining civility in the face of those who spout hate or express ideas that are anathema to a base level of civilized society is patently absurd.

I am continually amazed at the level of insight and knowledge expressed here when it comes to science and Mars. I am equally horrified when these same wunderkinds then start spouting off on matters not related to science or mars, such as the state of racism, immigration, human rights, vaccination, etc.

If we were in a theater, and I started shouting about politics, I would be roundly, and rightly, yelled at. Yet if the same is done here, in written form, somehow that is sacrosanct? I reject the premise that I must be polite when someone says something impolite, even if said politely.

Anyways, I appreciate the reply. My original point was that the process as outlined isn't needed. I am saying that I trust the admins and moderators to exercise good judgement. If you think I'm worth a ban, so be it.

Thanks for the invite but my mom doesn't let me use electronics after 5pm.

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#14 2021-12-26 17:01:46

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

Maintaining civility in the face of those who spout hate or express ideas that are anathema to a base level of civilized society is patently absurd.

Speaking of absurdity, this is you making an excuse for behaving the same way as the people you assert are anathema to civilized society.  What's the difference between their version of "civilized society" and your version?  You perceive others to be uncivilized, therefore you treat them in an uncivilized manner.  From my perspective, both of you ate the fruit from the same poison tree.

Nobody here is calling expressing a political opinion sacrosanct.  We are telling everyone that the form of argumentation attached to their political opinion may not be so reductive that it starts and ends with, "You're dumb, because you don't think exactly like I do."

Thanks for the invite but my mom doesn't let me use electronics after 5pm.

This is another cop-out to preclude making a real attempt to engage with other people.

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#15 2021-12-27 02:43:16

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

WTF is happening here? At least two times I've made the attempt to state or communicate that I'm fine with you guys running things as you see fit. You want me to mouth cock your version of interaction?

Should I and you respect someone who holds that a subset of people be gassed? Should I and you respect someone that holds that a subset of people, based on anything, should be treated indifferently?

You live in Texas. Not everyone that crosses that border is someone we want here. Not everyone that crosses that border isn't someone we should welcome. A fuc*king guy from England doesn't understand the difference. You want to pretend otherwise over the words i choose? Who or what are you defending?

You want me to engage, but you decide what the parameters of engagement are. Fu*k that. You made an offer, thank you, but this bullsh*t reply to goad me is just fuc*king sad.

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#16 2021-12-27 07:53:22

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

I'm respectfully requesting that all New Mars Forums members show basic human respect for other people, starting with the other members of this forum.  That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

Engage in a way that doesn't parrot back the sort of behavior you despise.

Nobody is trying to goad you into anything.  You're upset over something I never thought about, much less attempted to foment.  I asked you to join a call where we discuss Mars related topics, like the large ship concept.

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#17 2021-12-29 03:54:09

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

so be it. your mars will b e splendid in the imagination of  trolls. i will tack into the wind.

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#18 2021-12-29 15:37:42

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

Mars doesn't belong to me.  Mars is an empty canvas, a blank slate such as it were.  It belongs to everyone.  That's part of its charm.

This forum, on the other hand, does have owners.  The owners have asked the forum staff to uphold a modicum of civility and basic human respect here.  I find no fault in their request and I'm obligated to carry it out.

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#19 2021-12-30 02:10:58

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

I too follow orders. A sentence rich in steeped history.

The owners are at best dis-interested dead beat dads. Good for a payment now and then, maybe an occasional life lesson of general value, but the eyes always belie the truth, resentment of mistakes made and a societal expectation they burden under.

Thanks, once again, for doing the interminable. I recognize your role and function. I lay no blame at your feet.

I feel for you in trying to maintain basic human respect here given the penchant for outright racist comments made from afar, made in polite, civil, terms. I am unconstrained as you are, so will navigate accordingly.

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#20 2021-12-30 02:55:01

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

I don't view my children as mistakes, nor anyone else's children that way.  It's a pity that some people do.  Small minds, I guess.  Hard to say.  In any event, destructive behavior does nothing useful for self or society.  It's merely throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to take personal responsibility.  There are real consequences to every action taken.  If you don't want children, or don't want to have children with someone specific, then don't have sex with them.  It's always been that simple.

The higher you go in leadership positions, the lesser the relevance of what you personally want, or at least that has always been my experience.  YMMV.

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#21 2021-12-30 15:26:52

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,342

Re: Captain's Mast

I get your point, but my mind always wanders with binary statements like "destructive behavior does nothing useful for self or society". Is this true? Boxing as a sport is destructive, but is enjoyed by society. Demolition experts routinely destroy buildings so new ones can be created, or dangerous ones removed from causing future harm. We euthanize animals and people, with the death penalty ostensibly to make society safer. We have tortured people to gain information to prevent future or greater harm. We have waged war for a greater good.

So, what I am saying, is that destructive behavior does have uses, or at least given enough context, it can.

The higher one goes in leadership, what you personally want is always relevant, however it is tempered by the need to meet the needs of those above and below you, unless of course you are an autocratic jerk. At least that's been my personal experience.

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#22 2021-12-30 17:55:28

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,510

Re: Captain's Mast

clark,

Boxing causes traumatic brain injury, so no, it doesn't really help society to have a bunch of brain injury patients to take care of.  However, learning how to box can save your life if someone is intent on seriously injuring or killing you.  I didn't start in martial arts because I was interested in it.  It was a way to keep from getting the crap beat out of me going to and from school by small gangs of older kids that were bigger than I was.  Eventually they quit attacking me, but there were a lot of fights to get to that point, and no matter if I won or lost I was still bruised and bloodied.  I would have been overjoyed to never have to learn any of that, but outside environmental factors forced me to change who / what I was, and not for the better in my opinion.

Back to the point, continually engaging in pointless contests of fighting skill in a boxing ring is ultimately destructive.  That's why I stopped doing it.  You get good at it after awhile, or at least I did, but it will never make you any smarter and all the bruises and blood teach you is that fighting is painful.  People who have never been kicked in the head by a 200+ pound man or tossed into the pavement probably can't appreciate the force involved, but that was life for me for many years.  I never enjoyed fighting, but I didn't do it because I found it enjoyable.  I thought it was necessary, and sometimes it was.  There's an aspect of personal improvement and discipline that goes with training to fight, and I liked that part of it, but that was about it.

As you noted, demolishing buildings that will eventually fall down and hurt people is not destructive to society.  Nothing lasts forever, so eventually old buildings must be razed to make room for replacements.  So yes, in that very narrowly defined context demolition of a structurally unsound building is a net benefit to society, but destroying perfectly serviceable buildings does not benefit society at all.

In any event, I do not view people as mistakes.  I view some of their behavior as mistakes, but that doesn't stop me from interacting with them.  You take the good with the bad.  People are the only asset that assures long term survival.  Supplies of consumables doesn't do that for you, nor does technology.  Even if you have pointed differences with some of them, you ultimately need them.

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