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If a standard engineering approach is taken, then a switch to liquefied methane as the fuel will allow the new Raptor engines to replace the Merlins currently using RP-1 with a significant improvement in thrust generated with a higher ISP. The thus improved Falcon Heavy should be able to throw more and bigger chunks of hardware skyward. Maybe this is what Musk has in mind for his tentative 2018 Red Dragon to Mars launch? What about a Falcon Super Heavy with 4 detachable booster stages instead of 2? Maybe a bigger core stage with 4 Falcon 9 size boosters all using Methylox propulsion?
Just did some reading on Wikipedia re: Teflon or PTFE production. It strikes me as possible to Teflon coat the entire Helium pressure tank inside a large enough pressure chamber and initiate the polymerization which would coat EVERYTHING inside it. It would then even encapsulate the carbon fibers in a solid matrix including those exposed to the tetrafluoroethylene. Requires some "playing around" experimentally, but seems feasible to me... It's probably already been done, so we might be reinventing the wheel?
The concept of "shrink wrapping" is also described therein. No ability of LOX to permeate the carbon fiber overwrap = no disruption by freezing of oxygen.
After giving this problem some thought, synthesis of a higher molecular weight fluorinated monomer is in order to allow a spray-on application , followed by an in-situ polymerization of a coating that's completely inert to LOX, and which alleviates the problem of oxygen crystallization within the carbon fiber overwrap? Robert: awaiting your thoughts on this. I've been exclusively a styrene guy in the past, doing suspension polymerization of my novel reactive monomers ---> reactive polymers.
The thought just occurred to me of making a bag made of a fluorocarbon polymer and "Shrink-wrap" it onto the tank? This could result in a multiplicity of layers, as well.
BITD, that view was only held by extreme "Ecofreaks." It's now become a bit more popular, but remains irrational.
The real research on finding life--or evidence of life past--will most assuredly be accomplished by those lucky enough to make a journey to the Red Planet. I believe that the best evidence pro or con will come by doing some detailed chemistry of diverse samples of Martian materials from deep underground locations. Chemistry will provide the answers.
Anyone truly interested in astro-biochemistry needs to read some of the scientific articles from this gentleman's research:
http://scrippsscholars.ucsd.edu/jbada
Professor Bada has continued the work of Stanley Miller, and Harold Urey.
I'm both impressed by, but dismayed by, the statements of Elon Musk at the big meeting in Mexico earlier this Fall. There need to be more of a stepwise development of the BFR, with several intermediate development vehicles.
My proposed development timeline would be building a new, larger diameter core replacing the Falcon 9 design with one using the liquid methane fueled Raptor engines, as a step forward with the Falcon Heavy after that particular bird flies. But first, the Falcon 9 could incorporate a vacuum version of the Raptor in the 2nd stage for an initial test flight version. I believe the Falcon 9 is 3.85 meters in diameter, so a slight upgrade there would be 4.88 meters. This would allow a larger capsule to be launched that Dragon II, if the 2nd stage is appropriately upscaled? Initially use the next Falcon Heavy boosters. I can see several versions being built in a progressive manner, each building on the previous models, until the whatever it's being called today is ready to fly. Just some progressive testing and development; Elon is an optimist if he believes the huge bird should be next.
This was my first opportunity to read comments on this website regarding the SpaceX Falcon 9 v. 1.2 "anomaly." RobertDyck expressed by same comments here that I stated on 2 other websites, that there is a materials incompatibility of LOX with Carbon fiber. I was badgered by several other posters on both SpaceNews and SpaceflightInsider, that there was "no materials" issue at all. I was deeply disturbed that no one understood that dunking a potential hunk of fuel in LOX was NOT a good idea. Using some form of PTFE or Fluorinated polymer as an overcoat would alleviate this problem, but the issue is how to do it. Maybe dunking the tank into a bath of monomer and carry out an in-situ polymerization? My polymer experience is principally biphasic suspension polymerization for manufacture of polystyrene microspheres, so maybe Robert has more experience in this area than I? Just another one of my wild, off-the-wall suggestions.
The show is pretty disappointing to me--both as a story and scientifically. There's just enough scientific accuracy to lend some credibility, but I expected better from National Geographic. Given the horrendous amount of money this expedition would be costing, transmission of power in a DC form through copper wire is almost laughable. There should be an inverter at the nuclear reactor and then us silver wire to reduce the resistance losses. The logic involved regarding the "decisions" is laughable. The "on site" mission commander should be just that--the commander, and not some investor bureaucrat on Earth. There will ultimately need to be a defined chain of command, and not some touchy-feely remote control by the funding organization.
SpaceX isn't operating on the cost-plus accounting model, so there isn't an accountant hiding behind every drafting table or lathe in the machine shop to record the actions and add to the overhead. Robert Zubrin commented in his book "Entering Space," that the biggest product Lockheed-Martin had for sale was overhead. Since Elon is footing most of the bill with his own nickel--that makes a big difference.
I'm not suggesting this be done in a Dragon capsule! Only later when there is adequate provision for extensive pressurized cargo.
The possibility of doing the refrigeration on board the spacecraft is viable; the subsequent incubation takes another 3 weeks before hatching. Baby chicks don't take much room for the first several weeks, so some young pullets might make it to Mars, and shortly thereafter begin their breeding and egg laying cycle. The onboard care wouldn't take much effort since all they do is eat, drink, sleep and poop for about a month after hatching. If the Zubrin artificial gravity program is carried out, the only weightlessness would be after separation form the tether and planetary entry. They could be sedated prior to, and placed in some reentry compartments.
On the other hand, I suspect the Tilapia eggs would withstand liquid Nitrogen freezing.
You may gather from my comments that I'm not a vegan?
Don't discount the possibility of taking an absolute newborn animal or several animals and doing some bottle feeding for the first 4-6 weeks. In addition to the frozen boar semen, that's probably the lowest weight penalty possible. That's easily accomplished by buying several straws from different boars to have adequate genetic diversity in the growing swine herd. My father in law (RIP) did artificial insemination on his cattle herd--exclusively--with nearly 95% pregnancy as a result. There could be some psychological benefit to having some domestic animals along--just as the emotional support of having pets accomplish in hospitals and nursing homes. I've tubed and bottle fed numerous calves that were born in cold weather. They become pets in a big hurry!
Just a point here; where is the initial salmonella coming from? The way to import the chickens would be as their embryos (eggs), which can be washed clean and sterilized before refrigerated transport to Mars. Incubation on Mars then has disease free chickens. Any diseases, plant, animal, and human would be imported from earth. The offal from chickens would make excellent soil amendments for the greenhouses; that includes all uneaten parts, feathers heads, feet, and all. Chickens have an excellent feed ratio, producing 1 pound of chicken for every 3 pounds they consume. And what they don't add to body weight becomes more fertilizer as chickenshit. They are probably one of the first non-vegan foods available, and the Tilapia stated elsewhere would be a good bet, too. The concept of using the water to raise the fish being "consumed" is also incorrect, since the water could be then used for crop irrigation--containing the nutrients of fish wastes. Consider these as closed and feedback systems, then the total requirements go way down.
Another comment about O-rings; one of my late colleagues was involved in making O-rings for G-M vehicles, and they were primarily butadiene styrene polymers. I need to check on some old personal notes. There is a distinct possibility they could be 3D printed.
Bisphenol is synthesized from phenol and acetone. Straightforward synthesis.
I like only 2 plastics here: ABS and polycarbonate (Lexan) which can be used in greenhouse construction. If you check out the Wikipedia comments, ABS can incorporate fibers for increased strength. The fluorinated polymers suggested elsewhere would be fine for inflatable domes, but my attitude here is somewhat primitive: what can be inflated--can also be deflated (catastrophically!).
One product manufactured from ABS is Lego blocks. I envision structures made possible by having giant Lego "bricks" all cemented together with an ABS cement (contains either methy ethyl ketone [MEK] or acetone, both locally manufactured). These blocks could incorporate some fiber or regolith in order to enhance the radiation shielding properties. My concept for structures tends to be very pragmatic rather than idealized and hypothetical
Addressing the list posted earlier about essential B-vitamins; 2 are missing: L-Carnitine, and Coenzyme Q-10, both of which are required for metabolism of fatty acids and subsequent bodily energy production. A totally vegan diet is NOT as healthy as many voluntary "vegans" would have you think.
In a separate post below, I'll comment on the food production issue, as in addition to a 45 year career in chemistry, I have ranched for 20 years and know a bit about livestock management and growing crops.
I'm "on it!"
Overall, a younger workforce will be a lot more innovative than one composed of older, experienced hands--those guys that would tell the young ones "that can't possibly work." Getting the workforce to put in the time necessary to do the job is definitely one strategy used in industry. I'd be unwilling to bet against SpaceX! On the other hand, NASA is now a highly institutionalized bureaucracy. Younger workers are more inclined to be better risk-takers. NASA has become TOO risk adverse.
Then there should be a new thread started regarding a potential plastics industry on Mars. I'll leave that to you! I'm too much of a newbie here to egotistically undertake such...
This series seems to be somewhat overdramatic and under realistic. Too many "anomalies" to account for that are highly improbable. I was initially very excited about the series, since it was to be directed by Ron Howard. I'm not that keen on watching any longer. Yawn.
elderflower-
What is the ultimate purpose of the thermosetting resin? To manufacture construction materials? What about flexibility?
Setting up a plastics industry for in-situ use of the products seems to be one of the earlier possibilities in early colonization. Problem with ethylene, propylene, and butadiene is they're gases. I have in mind conversion of Martian atmosphere to styrene(s) which is (are) liquid and thus pourable into molds for subsequent polymerization. Consider manufacture of ABS plastics as feasible.
Added as a P.S. ABS is useful in 3D printers!
Louis-
What we know so far about Martian regolith is a high perchlorate content on the surface. Not good for agriculture. Until we have more information regarding soil chemistry after digging down a bit---this question is almost a wild goose chase. I also own a cattle ranch, and am quite familiar with what works for plant growth: manure.
I live within driving distance of the CU, Boulder campus, and plan to begin attending any meetings or gatherings with the Rocky Mountain Mars Society group, weather permitting.
There are 3 areas where my background may be of some use: (1) problem of bone decalcification during travel to the Red Planet, should not the spacecraft Zubrin artificial gravity system be utilized; (2) manufacture of construction materials from locally obtained materials; (3) improvements in fuels for boosters here on Earth.
Many of these areas probably have had lots of input prior to my arrival here, so I'm somewhat handicapped by not knowing where to begin looking in the myriad threads in existence. But I'll stick my toe into the conversational pool here. In reverse order.
(3) The problem of fuel densification when using RP-1 (kerosene) is limited by the physical properties of phase change at cryogenic temperatures. At one point, Rocketdyne was looking at utilization of 1,2-diethylcyclohexane but abandoned this project. There are probably better options that come to my mind. I have in mind some other similarly energetic compounds with lower melting points (some may object to this and say freezing points, but not the correct nomenclature). I've actually done quite a bit of literature research on this problem.
(2) The plastic of my preference would be polycarbonate, since it could be utilized for greenhouse manufacture. All the components are available from the Martian atmosphere other than phosgene.
(1) Has anyone some information whether there has been any attempt to slow bone decalcification by hormonal regulation of the process? At one point (2007) I was doing some work in this area with the hope there would be an SBIR solicitation for some developments in this area. Sadly, NASA seems to have ignored this area of endeavor..
Hello to all here, as I'm new to this forum. Space travel, and principally travel to Mars, has been of interest to me ever since I read the articles in the old "Colliers" magazines authored by Wernher von Braun. My parents thought I was nuts to take this seriously, but I was already something of a science geek. Through my high school years, I took every science course offered as well as the necessary math courses supportive of a science career. After graduation, I entered the University of Colorado Engineering School, majoring in Aerospace Engineering. I did pretty well for the first 2 years and began to flounder, as engineering was neither as easy as I had assumed, nor as pure science oriented as suited my interests. I took a break from school, which in the early '60s, meant a stint in the military. After returning from 3 years in the U.S. Army, I re-enrolled as a Chemistry major at Colorado; I completed a B.S. in Chemistry and worked a year in industry with the Biochemical giant, Sigma Chemical Company in St. Louis, MO. I became somewhat dissatisfied at the pigeonhole drudgery of a low level industrial chemist, and entered graduate school at the University of Wyoming; after 4 1/4 years, completed my Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry, with a strong orientation towards Biochemistry. I managed to win a competitive Postdoctoral Fellowship from the NIH at the University of California, Santa Cruz Campus where I continued the research I had begun in Wyoming--working on the chemistry of the visual process, or the chemistry of energy transduction to neural impulses.
During this time period, NASA was achieving at a fantastic scale by putting men on the Moon, and I never really lost sight of what was happening w/r space travel. But, I soldiered on in my chosen field of physical chemistry related to biological systems. Unfortunately the academic area was clogged with far too many Ph.D.s with great credentials for far too few positions. It was then back to industry for me, but as an entrepreneur. My skills in synthetic organic chemistry of biochemically important compounds came into play here, and my wife (also a great chemist) and I built a nice company manufacturing peptide hormones, building block molecules for peptide synthesis, and polymeric resin supports for the Merrifield synthesis of peptides. I became something of a self-taught polymer chemist and amino acid chemist as a result. I attempted to retire and sell my business in 2005, but the business was purchased by another company with the proviso that I work for them for several (3) years, which I did--another learning process which expanded my background in synthesis of non-naturally occurring amino acids and peptide hormones. Today, I'm fully retired, going nuts, and watching in a frustrated manner, the travails of those in the aerospace industry being unable to deal with problems where I may have some solutions at hand...