New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations via email. Please see Recruiting Topic for additional information. Write newmarsmember[at_symbol]gmail.com.
  1. Index
  2. » Search
  3. » Posts by BWhite

#2101 Re: Not So Free Chat » Blogger Andrew Sullivan - on Kerry, Bush and Iraq » 2004-10-12 12:08:54

Add: Before 9/11 George Bush openly despised and ridiculed nation building. Now, he says "trust me" as he embarks on the most audacious example of nation building in the history of the world.

A flip-flop? Nah, he says 9/11 changed everything.

So why can't we believe John Kerry when he says he will fight the War on Terror?

Because Bush has been consistent either side of 9/11. There was no flip to the flop. Kerry on the other hand...

No flip to flop?

When did George Bush ever support nation building as an appropriate use of American power before 9/11?

In the 2000 campaign Bush was insistent that nation building was a fool's errand. Now he trumpets it as the core of his policy. Turn Afghanistan and Iraq into models of freedom and democracy.

Its a good thing, but not what he stood for before 9/11.

#2102 Re: Not So Free Chat » Blogger Andrew Sullivan - on Kerry, Bush and Iraq » 2004-10-12 11:37:17

Lets go back to Andrew Sullivan's point.

How can we fight a global war on terror when the party in power (the GOP) refuses to share power with roughly 50% of the population?

Isn't that fighting a global war and a civil war at the same time?

Next, going separate ways from (Old) Europe may be inevitable (and maybe not) but why is it wise to do it now?

= = =

Add: Before 9/11 George Bush openly despised and ridiculed nation building. Now, he says "trust me" as he embarks on the most audacious example of nation building in the history of the world.

A flip-flop? Nah, he says 9/11 changed everything.

So why can't we believe John Kerry when he says he will fight the War on Terror?

= = =

Back to Sullivan:

Moreover, the war on terror, if we are going to succeed in the long run, has to be a bipartisan affair. By far the most worrying legacy of the Bush years is the sense that this is a Republican war: that one party owns it and that our partisan battles will define it. Simply put: that's bad for the country and bad for the war. Electing Kerry would force the Democrats to take responsibility for a war that is theirs' as well.

= = =

PS - - On not sharing power, locking one party out of House/Senate conference committee meetings is a fairly blatant example, IMHO.  big_smile

#2103 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » My idea on mars governance - Im feeling optimistic » 2004-10-12 10:18:32

*Isn't -property- (land ownership) the rights on which all other rights and privileges rest

Unless you're unarmed and someone who is comes along and takes your property. Without the ability to exercise force, rights become privileges.

Guns are a most imperfect form of power.

Ownership of land and other property requires lawyers, guns and money and IF secure ownership requires that everyone have a gun we are already in really big trouble.

Guns do nothing to help assure my ownership of 10,000 shares of Boeing, held by a family partnership trust lodged at the A.G. Edwards brokerage house.

= = =

A society which can secure property rights without universal ownership of guns will outproduce and thus out-compete a society which depends upon universal ownership of guns.

= = =

The genuis of Adam Smith rests on the division of labor. We hire police to carry guns and secure our property rights so we don't have to and thus be more productive in other ways.

#2104 Re: Not So Free Chat » Blogger Andrew Sullivan - on Kerry, Bush and Iraq » 2004-10-12 07:47:03

Sometimes we have to get up and work, and sometimes we have to fight.

In theory, I agree. Yet choose your battles wisely.

That "blue & white flag" encapsulates quite well what the neo-cons thought they were doing. And now its all about CYA and saving face for President Bush.

= = =

It appears our military allowed looters to steal http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm … ]equipment that can be used to make nuclear weapons.

We invade because of WMD and then fail to safeguard equipment for making WMD.

Can good intentions trump incompetence?

#2105 Re: Not So Free Chat » Blogger Andrew Sullivan - on Kerry, Bush and Iraq » 2004-10-11 14:48:05

THE WAR AND THE DEMS: One of the central questions in this election is simply: can John Kerry be trusted to fight the war on terror? Worrying about this is what keeps me from making the jump to supporting him. I'm a believer in the notion that we are at war, that you cannot ignore state sponsors of terrorism, and that the 1990s approach obviously failed. Bush rightly shifted our direction toward regime change rather than police work, something long overdue. But when you look ahead, it's more difficult to see where the differences between Kerry and Bush would actually lie. Bush, after all, doesn't deny the importance of police work or nation-building in the war (indeed, at this point, they're the bulk of his policy). And Kerry has no option but to acquiesce in regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the future policy mix is bound to be somewhat similar. More to the point: I don't see a huge difference between Bush's and Kerry's approaches to North Korea and Iran. In some respects, Kerry even seems tougher on Saudi Arabia than Bush is. In Iraq, Bush declared last Friday night that Kerry's plan was a carbon copy of his own. Why, then, would Kerry be such a risk?

BUSH AS BAD COP: Kerry also brings some obvious advantages. In Afghanistan and Iraq, Bush has committed any successor to a process of lengthy and difficult nation-building. If that truly is the major task of the next few years, wouldn't it be better to have people who have experience in nation-building and who actually believe in it (like Holbrooke), rather than people like Rummy and Cheney who clearly disdain it and keep under-funding and under-manning it? One of the advantages of being a democracy in wartime is that we can shift leaders and tactics as circumstances permit. Think of this strategy as a bad-cop-good-cop routine in a war against an elusive enemy. Bush has scared the living daylights out of our foes, removed two dictatorships and regained the initiative against Jihadism (all very, very good). But it's in America's interests also to show that we can reach out to moderate Muslims, placate the Europeans, and expand the anti-terror alliance. Why wouldn't a Kerry administration be effective in that respect? As long as it is seen as a shift in tactics, rather than an exercise in appeasement, I don't see the major downside. We're fighting two wars: one against the terror-masters in Jihadist regimes, and another in world and Muslim opinion against the ideology of Islamo-fascism. Bush has done well in the former and not-so-well in the latter. A hammer clad in a little Kerry velvet might not be so bad a weapon in the coming four years.

KERRY AS GOOD COP: The major objection to this, of course, is that Kerry simply cannot be trusted. He won't simply change tactics in the war; he'll change direction. His long record of appeasing America's enemies certainly suggests as much. And I don't blame anyone who thinks that's enough evidence and votes for Bush as a result. But it behooves fair-minded people also to listen to what Kerry has actually said in this campaign: that he won't relent against terrorism. He isn't Howard Dean. And 9/11 has changed things - even within the Democratic party. Moreover, the war on terror, if we are going to succeed in the long run, has to be a bipartisan affair. By far the most worrying legacy of the Bush years is the sense that this is a Republican war: that one party owns it and that our partisan battles will define it. Simply put: that's bad for the country and bad for the war. Electing Kerry would force the Democrats to take responsibility for a war that is theirs' as well. It would deny the Deaniac-Mooreish wing a perpetual chance to whine and pretend that we are not threatened, or to entertain such excrescences as the notion that president Bush is as big a threat as al Qaeda or Saddam. It would call their bluff and force the Democrats to get serious again about defending this country. Maybe I'm naive in hoping this could happen. But it is not an inappropriate hope. And it is offered in the broader belief that we can win this war - united rather than divided.

Interesting. . .

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php … 43606]Link

#2106 Re: Not So Free Chat » Holy Smokes! - I agree with the CATO Institute » 2004-10-11 14:22:51

Though a one-party state has advantages all its own.   big_smile

In theory, perhaps.

Yet the example of "McSmirky the Chimp" as Supreme Leader should cause even the most hard core fascists to take pause.

#2108 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » My idea on mars governance - Im feeling optimistic » 2004-10-11 13:07:15

Guns are dangerous, and there's no justification for there existence on Mars.

Emotionally, I might agree.

However, given the McGyver (spellling?) type skills that will be needed to survive on Mars making guns (or worse) will be very easy to do.

A rapid prototype machine and software and voila! - - a ceramic pistol.

#2109 Re: Not So Free Chat » Apropos of Nothing -3- » 2004-10-11 11:05:02

Viva la Telemundo!

On Jon Stewart's show, IIRC, he had a bit about Telemundo's assessment of the 2004 election:

(1) Senor Tight Ass

versus

(2) Le Grande Moron.

#2110 Re: Not So Free Chat » Holy Smokes! - I agree with the CATO Institute » 2004-10-11 10:41:44

Who would have http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-07-03.html]thought that?

As far as I am concerned, one out of three Democrat wins is enough for this year.

White House OR Senate OR House of Representatives

#2111 Re: Not So Free Chat » Kenneth Bigley beheaded... » 2004-10-10 18:56:58

I agree with clark.

These videos are released to manipulate us. 9/11 was perpetrated to manipulate us.

Rage blinds our reason and we write checks we cannot cash and seek to capture bridges that are beyond our abilities.

= = =

When JDAMs go astray and kill children and grandparents "by mistake" and we justify it as collateral damage the hatred becomes mutual and there will be no end unless we kill them all.

But we cannot kill them all because we need their oil.

#2112 Re: Human missions » Kerry's position on space *2* - ...continue discussion here (for now) » 2004-10-08 13:53:23

Bush vs Kerry? Gawd, I am getting so weary of that.

But Sol-III does look like it could become a pretty cool blog. See my comments in Free Chat.

#2113 Re: Not So Free Chat » Sol-III and other - Mars or space web-logs » 2004-10-08 13:51:41

wgc again claims Bush is good for space and Kerry is a train wreck. Been there, done that. Whatever.  :;):

However, I have to say his http://sol3.typepad.com/]Sol-III website offers some interesting possibilities for some space related fun. 

So setting all that election hoopla aside, I ask, who can point me to other "cool" space themed bloigs?

Since typepad and livejournal are so darn cheap, maybe I will create a website that provides links to cool space blogs others create.

Thoughts?

#2114 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Universal Health Care on Mars? - How best to take care of Martians? » 2004-10-06 15:40:11

Yet our lifestyle is predominately the result of the life we must lead- most families have two people working outside of the home, which tends to lead to greater instances of eating out, and eating less healthy. 40 hour weeks and overtime with child rearing or night classes to get ahead deprive people of available time to get out and exercise. We can go on about what your socio-economic status means in determing your health since the poorer you are, the less available fresh fruit and vegtables tend to be (this is especially true for the inner cities) which leads to higher instances of geographicly specific areas where the majority of the unhealthy people live in one area, which over taxes the local services.

I recall reading about a doctor at Cornell who discovered that mammals born to underweight or malnourished mothers had their liver and pancreas "tuned" to be less able to strain out fats and cholesterol.

If born into a famine setting, such tuning would be advantageous as it helps the body preserve such nutrition as is available.

Now, take a mother on crack, who smoke cigarettes and is functionally malnourished, even if she eats plenty of junk food. Her baby is born with organs tuned to be less able to screen out fat and cholestrol and is then fed a diet of KFC, Burger King and McDonalds.

Voila! Obesity and heart disease.

#2115 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Universal Health Care on Mars? - How best to take care of Martians? » 2004-10-06 15:35:17

Anyway, people will all die off and it will sort itself out. Release the veilocoraptors!  tongue

When I was at the Moon-Mars Blitz, one night at dinner a fellow told me that Bejing is actively pushing smoking on its citizens, even to the point of subsidizing cigarettes.

He did appear to speak fluent Mandarin (according to someone else who claimed he also spoke fluent Mandarin) and claimed some expertise on present day China.

Anyway, the alleged rationale was to kill people off before they could collect social welfare benefits for the aged.

#2116 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Universal Health Care on Mars? - How best to take care of Martians? » 2004-10-06 12:17:58

In my opinion, a huge problem in America is the utter lack of sensible preventive treatments and the media promotion of frankly unhealthy lifestyles in the name of profit.

We spend billions of $$$ (hundreds of billions of $$$) for by-pass operations on smokers and obese people. Don't misunderstand, I do not favor rationing and my human compassion goes out to the overweight person who needs heart surgery.

But, a very real cost of selling super-Size portions at McDonalds is higher health care costs.

#2117 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-10-06 08:41:21

If we want to see if artificialy spinning a ship on a tether will create gravity in which a Human will feel reasonably comfortable then we should try it. But using Soyuz or progress modules is a no go for a start they are not designed for having gravity in the first place. You can hardly stand up in one and that is the point we need to see if normal human movement will work and also that prolonged human occupation is a go'er in that enviroment. So we need an alternative and in this new enviroment of allowing small industry to access space we should give this job to. Bigelow.

Yeah I know, but his habs can inflate and as such we can fit both habs needed into a smaller rocket and simply installing ion engines should provide the motive force to accelerate and slow down. It would also give a chance to actually see how effective these inflatable structures are and as his cost estimates to get habs working is cheaper than the "heavy" alternative and this era of shrinking space budgets it has to be done as cheap as we can get it.

I would =VERY= much prefer to spin a Bigelow inflated hab in preference to a Soyuz/Progress tandem.

My main point is that doing a Soyuz/Progress tandem or a Progress/Progress tandem is VERY inexpensive (relatively speaking) since the launch costs have already been fully paid for in the ISS budget.

Two Progress spinning for 18 months followed by tether recovery would allow examination of tether wear issues.

= = =

Related to my main point is the observation that we are spending $$$ now to launch Soyuz and Progress. Using them is not ideal but it goes give additional research "bang" for those bucks already spent.

Let the tether companies pay the incremental costs to allow testing and fine tuning. If they can subsidize their tests by adding a Discovery Channel cam to the Progress? Well, good.

#2118 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-10-06 08:35:52

Zero gee for extended periods is bad for people. We do not need "research" at ISS to prove that.

If we simulate gravity by spinning we need a large diameter to minimize the rpms needed to generate 3/8ths gee.

Spinning faster on  on a short axis creates Coriolis and differential gravity if your hab has more than 1 story or level.

The ideal is as long an axis of rotation as possible with as few rpms as possible. This is balanced against eth size of the vessel and the length of any tether or boom.

Rigid trusses have advantages but add weight.

To rotate the entire vessel will need either a VERY big ship or spinning VERY fast. Both bad ideas.

#2119 Re: Human missions » 7-Up:  Free Space Flight Offer » 2004-10-05 10:07:47

Larry, ummmmm, ridiculous question !!!!

but does this help move space forward ?

Interesting to see comments -  both answers are correct in different reasons . Depends on your view of moving space foward .

It moves space forward, maybe not by much, but forward nonetheless.

By beginning the essential task of paying for space with funds that do not originate with the US federal government. With the exploding federal deficits, public-private joint financing is the only way we will ever get anywhere.

Besides, as the Aldridge Commission concluded, moving space into a more central role in our culture is mission-critical for sustainability.

#2120 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-10-04 21:12:58

Ian Flint,

SpaceshipOne isn't shoestring technology, it was systematic, tested and proven technology, what I mean shoestring technology is unproven technology with limited scope of use and alot of risks associated with the technology and not thought through.

So you say take Mars off the table until we can build Battlestar Galactica, correct?

= = =

PS - - suppose some wingnuts decided to go to Mars with tethers, and somehow survived.

By the time you build the first BattleStar Galactica, all the prime real estate will have been snarfed up. . .

cool

#2121 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-10-03 19:17:33

Tethered space vessels , look primative and not in the best interests in long term space development.

Why? Other than you say so?

Development of artifical gravity mechanisms on space vessels are the issue. We need to build this for long term exploration and colonization, starting with mars.

Coriolis effects rule out spinning vessels on a short radius.

The idea of putting habs on a wheel will need a really big wheel to avoid Coriolis and even tidal forces. Hence, a BattleStar Galactica.

Centrifuge chairs might solve certain physiological effects but the kinesthetic skills of the astronauts will be shot all to hell transitioning between 3/8ths gee or 1 gee and zero gee.

#2122 Re: Human missions » New Funding Source - Nascar/Nextel Track pass » 2004-10-03 12:33:26

Well, trouble is that most space telemetry is pretty boring and there really aren't that many people interested in the technical aspects of spaceflight. They'll watch launch, landing, and the occasional taped crew/mission control interview on the news. You could maybe get a few thousand or even tens of thousands of subscribers for a few dollars a month maybe, but I don't see this idea as raking in much money compared to its expenses.

On one hand I agree, but on the other The Aldridge Commission did say that enlarging the presence of spaceflight within our culture is a "mission critical" task for keeping any program sustainable.

People are strange.

Give them something for free and they de-value it. Charge them even a nominal amount and they value it more highly.

No one will listen to the boring chats (I agree completely) BUT daily "highlights" might be more interesting and if you subscribe you are guaranteed to be able to tune in if something exciting does happen. $9.99 a month guarantees you can tune in - - instantly - - if you chose to and once a week you can get a succinct update on the highlights of the last week.

Subscribers can also be given the privilege of priority delivery of e-mail requests to the crew(s) and first acccess to photos and data before public release.

#2123 Re: Human missions » New Funding Source - Nascar/Nextel Track pass » 2004-10-03 06:58:28

Nascar and Nextel have a new premium service called http://products.digitalorchid.com/nasca … ]TrackPass.

A few minutes ago, I was driving home from Starbucks with coffee and heard a radio ad for TrackPass at $9.99 per month.

= = =

What if NASA actually went someplace (Moon, Mars, L1, whatever) and sold live on-line feeds of all radio traffic and selected telemetry for $9.99 per month?

Space advocates could subscribe and their money flows straight to NASA.

10 million subscribers is more than $1 billion dollars per year.

Charge more for video.  :;):

= = =

A snip from the link:

NASCAR.com TO GO Application Demo
This demo will show you how to use the NASCAR.com TO GO application on a web-ready phone.

#2124 Re: Life support systems » If gravity is essential to embryo development... - then here's how Mars will beat it. » 2004-10-01 10:31:29

We discussed this at length a few years ago.

My plan was to build gimballed, suspended subway cars and spin them around the settlement. Someone else pointed out that an inclined track works just as well.

Maybe 8 hours a day of 1 gee wold be sufficient for fetal development. Add a dining car and a sleeping car and pregnancy confinement takes on a whole new meaning.

A 3/8ths gee lab in LEO breeding chimps and the like seems like a necessary place to start.

#2125 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-10-01 09:32:37

Tethered flight is either easy, hard or in the middle.

If its easy then lets stop whining that micro-gravity is a problem for Mars mission. Not necessarily you GCNRevenger, but the folks who wrote the article about immunity loss that started this thread.

If tethered flight is easy, extended zero-gee human life science experiements at ISS border on the unethical.

If tethered flight is hard, then lets practice and solve the tough bits.

Thats all I am saying.

  1. Index
  2. » Search
  3. » Posts by BWhite

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB