New Mars Forums

Several years ago, either at New Mars or its predecessor board we were discussing what skills would be useful for the first long term team to visit Mars (or the moon).

Back then, I insisted we need a chemist. A versatile, broadly experienced chemist. 

I stand by that opinion.

Silicon, aluminum, oxygen and nitrogen! Si-Al-O-N Time to google on how to make this stuff. Lunar alon would be way better than fiberglass.

Maybe President Bush was right after all. We can build spaceships on the Moon.  8)

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ALON looks perfect for spacecraft portholes and helmet visors.

I agree. Pretty much everything is too precious to just dump.

My argument for imported methane / H2 works only if every drop of exhaust (H2O & CO2) is captured and recycled.

$30,000/lb? Proton is $1000 per pound to LEO today.

Besides, how do you supply power to that machine?

Is there any lunar hydrogen that is recoverable? As far as I know, it's not confirmed yet.

Why? Especially if a lunar LOX plant has been built.

Import methane and receive a four-fer;

Power
Water
carbon dioxide
cabon monoxide (for Mond process)

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Or, import large numbers of solar cells and/or a nuclear power plant. 

Which will be "lighter" and cheaper?

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I assert it will be far cheaper to import methane and extract LOX than dig water out of cold traps and crack into H2 & O2 (let alone process out the impurities)

A Honda power generator (a $1000 item) running methane / LOX will spew what is nearly distilled water from the tailpipe.

Since imported mass is a huge limiting factor, I believe a good solar alternative would be Stirling cycle engines that use supercritical CO2 as the working fluid (Argonne Nat'l Lab has done some work on supercrit CO2 turbines); deploys the "cold end" of the Stirling cycle engine in shaded regolith; and the "hot end" at the focal point of multiple inflatable mirrors.

Austin Stanley has pointed out the amount of solar energy that can be concentrated with a few hundred (or thousand) dollars of very light weight material.

One VSE LSAM redesigned to carry cargo only could deliver the hardware and the CO2 can be harvested from the exhaust of a methane / LOX surface rover.       

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Add a "for example" link: supercritical CO2 cycles for advanced nuclear power.

This link is for Brayton cycle but should work with just about any heat engine, the key being 2000 F plus temperatures coming from solar energy concentrated by commerical grade mylar mirrors.

To be clear, nuclear reactors would be nice. But lacking reactors, nickel can be digested and vapor deposited on a 14 days on and 14 days off schedule.

Rest and perform facility maintenance during the lunar night.

As for platinum revenue, nope its not enough to sustain a cis-lunar economy. Not even close.

In 2004, the entire world produced about $6 billion worth of platinum, half of that imported by China which has ZERO native platinum reserves.

Now, if China wanted to leverage lunar platinum to assist with the prestige of a lunar base, they begin with a $3 billion platinum import defict which can be used to partially offset a space program.

Anyway, my plan is for TV rights to pay for the EML-1 station and development of a re-useable EML-1 to Luna landing module. Then follow on mission are paid for with TV rights for the 1st Japanese, 1st Indonesian, 1st Mexican etc. .  plus  alumni donations for the 1st grad of Middle State Poly-Tech to walk on the Moon.

At Proton / Soyuz prices ($100 million per Soyuz + Proton) plus shipping some methane/kerosene and LOX, even places like Singapore might be able to sell TV rights for $200-$300 million for coverage of a native son or daughter walking on the Moon. Tourism offers more revenue.

Next, mint lunar platinum coins. The very first coins ever made with metals mined off of the Earth. 500 years from now, those will be extraordinarily valuable. Sell them today at a premium to artificially inflate the price of the first lunar platinum returned to the Earth.

Okay, that will run out before too long.

Harley Davidson makes more money on merchandize than they do selling motorcycles. So, as you are mining platinum (maybe at a loss) market the heck out of your company and brand consumer goods.

Buy our shoes, shirts and show your support for opening the lunar frontier. Can't be done? Study Nike. They spend $2 billion per year on endorsement contracts. If my company has begun mining lunar platinum, I can sell shirts, shoes, pants, whatever.

Genuine lunar nickel bathroom fixtures? The nickel is "free" since I cannot completely refine out the platinum on the Moon and the nickel needs to come back to Earth anyway.

Now by doing this in a fictional context, perhaps I can create a basis for discussion and provoke some "out of the box" thinking.

Is this the whole thing except for the movie?

Sorry, I forgot your Gateway construction questions.

Budget 1 Proton to lift the FGB-2 & budget 2 more to push to EML-1. That's why I specify 9 Proton.

If I need 3 Block D, no big deal, right? One Block D might be enough for a docking module to connect to the FGB-2 and TransHab.

Radiation protection? The Transhab can be made with boron doped polyethylene (& Kevlar) with a central core storm shelter and methane tanks can be stockpiled around the facility.

Standardized tanks are new. No question. But it is either that or cryogenic fuel pumping. I prefer to design a standardized tank.     

That re-useable landing module is the biggest new piece of hardware. I envision an oversized LEM with landing legs that do not come off. Methane / LOX is better than the Apollo hypergolics and methane stores way better than LH2. Same engines (RL-10 class) perform the descent and ascent functions.

Has the patent expired on the original basic RL-10 yet?

More fuel will be needed to return to EML-1 bringing the whole vessel but once lunar LOX comes on-line the long term savings will be enormous.

More answers:

FGB-1 was launched via Proton and is now part of ISS.

Re-fueling? I'd suggest standardized tanks of LOX and methane for the re-useable lander. Use a plug-n-play format. No zero gee fuel transfers.

Soyuz + Block DM can do a lunar fly-by from EML-1 or fly direct to Earth. Depends on the math. The upper stage will needs a few weeks (a month?) deep space shelf life.

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Once there were vague plans to build a Proton pad in equatorial Brazil.

This is a good answer.

12 hour payload cycles probably can recoup the investment at $100/lb. But again, this also requires potentially staggering levels of demand. 30,000 pounds going up every 12 hours.

2 million pounds of mass per month, per elevator, with multiple  elevators likely needed to fully achieve the economies of scale to get to $100/lb.

But yes this will change everything.

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Rather than flying tethers as an intermediate step, a lunar to EML-1 elevator would appear to be a good intermediate step.

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Next up, the geo-politics of all this.