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BWhite,
I know they are in the bed of DOD and NASA , but they are private companies that can make there own decisions. The Government wants the best price for their money and having private contractors sometimes works other times it doesn't work.
I don't care about the small narrow focus of NASA and their explorer missions and ideas. CEV ( Crew Exploration Vehicle ) is an explorer spacecraft again, nothing new there.
We need a vehicle assembly methodology and vehicle design for current level of technology both unmanned and manned designs that are flexible / modular and could be used for lunar bases, freighters, human-centric transports, power arrays (fixed and mobile), space stations, and orbital platforms. The methodolgy can be used to manufacture all these objects in LEO and provide the first generation in space migration.
If we don't we will just have the small explorer missions and might get up to a small outpost in 100 years, Because we won't have the large scale accumulative infrastructure investment in LEO, on the moon and around and on MArs.
BWhite,
then you explain to me, why the US Government has placed the Space Operations and Launch Operations into Private Contractors under license of NASA and not government employees anymore and they will do the same in space and also tender the orbiting platform operations the same way .
Dook, What a Jester , you make me Laugh :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Xaligen,
You don't understand entrenpenuers, because they will use - market share as a motive, or control within a market to open the finances to invest into a project. Business needs only clear outcomes and income / revenue streams and when those stream become active.
The best method for space to grow with business is to make the expenditure provides a 100% Rebate against income tax, instead of deduction of 30% or less on corporate tax reports. In some countries foster research and development through rebates up to 150% the same could be used to build a commercial space environment from LEO - Moon - Mars.
eg. Spend US$200 Million in LEO Space development and received a rebate of US$300 Million against the future income tax. Tax bill = US$800 Million - US$300 Million Rebate = Net Tax Bill of US$500 Million
We would have billions of dollars going into commercial space development and with some load taken off the nation's budget directly into indirect supply but would increase employment in these higher income fields would increase income tax paid back into federal tax system would see minimum effect.
The CEV, must be designed to meet the fairings of the rockets it will be launched from. We could design a small shuttle craft for personnel and personal effects only for earth to LEO and using the CEV modules also use some in a LEO to Lunar surface craft. But remember the size of the launch vehivle being used.
Rxke,
Ýou are right, You are also right about the pocket PCs and Phones at the end of the year we will have a Pocket PC with built-in HD 3-6GBs, dual core systems, flash drives at 2GB, Blueray DVD-R/RW Backup Storage up to 50GBs and more. But that won't help the missions outside the atomsphere. We need a whole new methodology for micro-circuitry platforms for space based on the repairability in space. ( Not throw away )
We also need information stoarge upwards of 1TB onboard spacecrafts for long duration missions and scientific work. All this technology is required for building a human presence in space for the future evolution of humanity.
Dook
You want some details ok:
We start with the infrastructure Issues - 2008-2025
1. Structure of an organization for the creation of space as a permanent place for humanity and not just on earth. Including Space Education and Technical Education Institute for the development of space settlement. Providing a large institute devoted in space research for private sector advancements in space.
2. Education, Training of personnel for tele-robotic systems for work from earth and within offworld sites ( both space station and planetary bases.
3. Pilot developments of Moon Bases and Space Station environments and train personnel to function in a command structure.
3. Pilot Developments of Large scale robotic construction and assembly systems for space and open hanger facilities in space and on the moon.
4. Research into new generation HTOL spacecraft developments that can be recycled in space and other human centric space vessels that are reuseable.
5. Establishment of an automated factory manufacturing of base components for space requires including solar panels, electronic circurity and more.
6. Command Infrastructure for a space port HTOL launches including the assembly facilities for HTOL Vehicles both manned and unmanned.
7. Income Stream establishement and generating the US$100+ Billions per year.
8. A series of launches will supply the necessary components in orbit to create a large scale spinning space station for residential use for permanent crews in orbit.
9. Increase the Tele-robotic teams in orbit and establish construction zones for rapid development of cargo transports for the lunar surface. Including construction of a large mobile solar array that can generate 10 Megawatts for lunar surface development. Continue development of more vessels for other activities listed below.
10. Launch a group of space crafts designed for landing on the moon and carry the necessary supplies to commence development of a large scale moon base for human.
11. Launch a group of cargo vessels designed for mining operations fo the lunar surface
12. Launch a large unmanned satellite / probe / science platform vessel to place navigation+communication and recon probes for the inner and outer planets and provide continuous science information and on-board experiments.
Current space population would approximately be 200-500
Next Level to Mars 2025-2040
13. We expand the infrastructure in orbit and continue to expand facilities on the moon including vehicle assembly bay for large vessels, increasing moon bases including a multiple radio telescope array on the far side of the moon. establishment of permanent transport routes and increase human traffic to the lunar surface expanding the mineral processing, food processing and training facilities.
14. Launch two missions to Mars in groups of four vessels ( 1 mars rated power array, 2 cargo and one human ) to setup two different sites one primary for the establishment of a future settlement and the other for food processing and exploration.
15. While the two explorer missions are underway on Mars the construction of a large scale human-centric vessel capable of moving 30-75 personnel + crew to mars and back, would be under construction on the Moon and a fleet of cargo vessels would be in orbit and on the moon.
Space Population by 2030 be 1000-2000 the framework on the interplanetary economy takes shape.
16. Another specialized vessels would be under development - Mining and processing vessel for asteroid mining ventures. and in earth orbit the creation of a mobile space station and repair bay for movement to Mars.
17. Launch a large convoy from earth and moon to Mars carrying some 60 personnel, permanent structures for base construction, construction droids, and supplies required. By this time the Agriculture Explorer Mission has complete the development of a large cultivated automated farm development.
18. Launch of the Mining and processing vessel for service into the asteroid belt. and start development of second cargo transport fleet of vessels on the launar surface.
Space Population by 2038 approximately 3000-5000 and the first major L Point Station for 10,000 people are under development.
Next Level 2040-2055
19. The Launch of the Mobile space station to Mars and Repair Bay and the second cargo fleet to Mars with more supplies and equipment for rapid development of the Martian Surface resources and the second human-centric vessel carrying another 60 personnel for expanding the settlement, manufacturing and exploration.
20. By this time the resources provided for the Martian surface will support 250 personnel and the two human-centric vessels are send back to earth to collect another 120 personnel. ( emergency provisions are in place to evacute the planet if necessary)
21. Completion of L Point Biosphere Station and commence movement of personnel into space to live aboard the biosphere and work either on the sphere, earth orbit or on the moon. The space population will creep past 10,000 by 2045-2048.
22. More Human-centric vessels are under construction by this time these will be upgrade versions of the future ships and would have faster drives and provide more space for more human passengers and same crew space - increasing the passenger numbers to 100-175 per vessel.
23. With the establishment of the required infrastructure and the added resources coming back to the interplanetary economy from the asteroid belt the expansion will continue.
Over the next 50 year the human race continue the growth of 1000 personnel per year in all activities in earth orbit , L points, Moon, Mars and the new missions to the outer planets and there moons to increase our understanding, and resources. We will have alot of next generation space laboratories in earth orbit, on the moon, in orbit of Mars and standalone in our star system.
Dook, I have given you a little more detailed outline of the process from 2008-2105 and the population grow for that time period. We have the technology to achieve that, but we lack the will to make hard decisions to implement that growth in space. Of course we have people also like Dook that doesn't see that this is possible to construct and its a logical plan and can be effective to deliver the human race to the next level of human evolution and revolution.
Before you try and shot holes in the outlined plan the budget is 2015 - 2055 = 40 years at US$100 Billion = 4 Trillion Dollars + Lunar mineral resources, food resources , Martian mineral resources, food resources and the asteroid belt mineral resources without talking about the value of the resources for 2055 -2105. I think we have the resources. !!!!!!!!!!
People,
What about telling both Control Freaks ( russia and usa ) to get lost and go private enterprise completely. What is required is a geo-survey of the moon and find the best spot and then get the largest construction and mining companies and aerospace companies together in a consortium to bring the capital together. Using the new corporation they then provide the base for the loans from a consortium of banks and large pension funds throughout the world.
You have the funds, technical expertise and the right people to develop the process. Next to build the project and the transportation route to earth. using maglev moon shots of material back to earth orbit for space processing into space vehicles or oter components.
You do have some merits to your plan but you need a detail business proposal including the right mix of in-trade consortium members and cash paying consortium members to setup the corporation for the lunar surface.
Dook,
When you add Scientists ( in all fields ), Medical Physicians, Engineers, Agriculturists, Miners, Material Refiners, Construction Workers, Administration Staff, Space Crews, all their families and more. Would add up to more than 50,000 over three planetary bodies and asteroids.
I am saying that the bulk of personnel will be in earth orbit, on Moon and Mars. I am not saying that its going to be easy to build but it will progress over time from 2045 - 2105.
We are not using the 50,000 as test subjects these people will be living productive lives outside the earth (terra) and helping to innovate and expand the frontiers of knowledge for humanity as well.
Our solar system is a "local street" and our local stars are our neigbourhood and we haven't go to deep space yet. I think you have an issue about using other technology ( Non-NASA ) that could be used to improve the prospects for settlement.
You have a low opinion of our scientists, they would jump for joy when a major strategy for advancement of humans into space and that continued funding along those lines. The scientists that wouldn't like this strategy would be the ones that don't have research that could be used for those purposes. That should be funded through the National Science Foundation and not NASA because the job for NASA is to get humans into space and all research satellites, probes, and landers should be focused for that goal in mind.
Dook,
You asked Why ?
Answer :
In our history we have evolved through overcoming our environment and creating new technologies through conflict and hardship. We have explored 90% of this planet and we need to expand our horizons by going into space to evolve into the next society.
Many other reasons are around for getting some people off the planet but the best one is the eveolution of science, technology, and society. We live on the outer edge of our galaxy and we need to develop technologies to explore our current neighbours the only way is to be out there testing the technologies in a real environment and that means human colonies out in space. We are social beings that need our sense of community and family.
I hope that answers your question why we should go with humans and why we need to be there. If you don't think the human race can do it then you don't have faith and trust in the human spirit and desire to succeed.
P.S.
We should support changes to the name of the sun to "SOL" and earth to " Terra " a name older than the current name and then we would have humans from the planet terra and in the future we would also have humans from the Planet Mars. in the Sol Star System.
Dook,
No, that is what I mean, its a small scale habitat that wouldn't support a permanent colony base. A permanent colony base would support more than 75 personnel and 350 droids in one location. The MD habitats could only be used for explorer missions, initial landing sites and / or remote location sites for use by explorers , scientists and surveyors for exploring territory, planetary research, mapping and co-ordinating large operations.
Anyhow - you are just talking about the application fo NASA current small budget and not the budget it will have when the public finds out they are not going to be the world leader in space within 20 years with the Russians, ESA, Japan, China, India and many others that could combine or work together on tasks that would benefit both parties.
We have forgotten that Private Enterprise funds alot of the development and research into space for NASA and receive grants for that work. There will be a time when the private sector will decide whether or not to continue with the current arrangements or branch out for themselves into space. It depends on how it is done and where the funds are drawn from and the income generated.
Dook, you have issues about humanities ability to move off this world and expand across the planetary system with a combination of human and human -controlled droids and self -functioning droids. If you don't think we have the technology go see honda's robot site and watch the videos. Using that same technology in telerobotic droids and self-functioning droids in space you can expand humans quickly.
srmeaney,
You must be (Australian), But banks would want a proven record of space investments and income driven. Starting with near earth space investments to generate income from earth businesses. Then you move to the lunar surface and you would have the banks in a consortium back your venture because of your previous achievements.
You could start space activities on earth providing infrastructure that would help the long term settlement of space and still draw income from earth activities within space infrastructure. Develop an open mind to the complex issues and work on solutions for all.
VitaminJ,
"We all care about science and Zubrin" - don't you think we do too !!!! We need a overall strategy and infrastructure document that will provide the framework to alter what we have governmental and non-governmental globally to meet short and long term goals for humanity in space.
When I am looking at the Mars Direct concept it could be an Apollo style missions and then go nowhere after the initial landings. We need to have them with a purpose - to settle humans on Moon and Mars. We need to balance scientific part of the mission with surveying and site preparation for large outpost / settlement developments. ( where to public can see progression and eventual benefit )
Dook,
Firstly, I don't have any issues with the explorer mission using Mars direct concept for the primary mission of science, surveying and locating a settlement site for future expansion.
What I am saying is that we need a overall strategy / roadmap to get people, equipment and resources into space and onto the planetary bodies. ( Moon and Mars ) I am not talking about the Star Trek style space vessels but I am not talking about the apollo capsules either. What we need to do is design, contruct and launch new larger current technology spacecrafts in orbit and from automated construction center/s on the lunar surface.
While we are building the larger human centric vessels we are using the Mars Direct Concept for explorer missions to the Martian surface in multiple locations. We need an overall plan to work towards to meet these goals for every group from sciences, colonists, business and government.
Grypd,
That's right, with families we need all the other infrastructure for society - schools, shops, entertainment, administration, tele-robotics, mining, food processing and more.
We would need settlement programs that would assist in the training of spouses for alternative positions than currently working on earth, If they have the required skills they will be moved to their primary occupation.
As a society going into space we need a strategy or road map to create the settlements in LEO, Moon , Mars and beyond. I do think we need to start now to develop that roadmap for the settlement and creation of the interplanetary economy for a 100 year timeline.
1. How to extend the earth economy ? and what in the Earth Space Economy ? and where the income from orbital space come from ?.
2. How to create a Lunar economy and extend that to earth and combine the two bodies into a single marketplace ?
3. How to create a Martian economy and extend that to earth and Moon and combine the three bodies into a single marketplace ?
These are the questions to answer because they will give the answer to who, when, where , how We expand our economy into a part of a large interplanetary economy of these three bodies.
Dook,
I did a typing error not 2199 for the 50,000+ humans but 2099 to 2101 the end of 21st century and the start of 22nd century.
For every human in space we will have upwards of 5 times ( 250,000+ ) in robotic systems from construction, mining, food processing, cargo transports, probes and more. With the combined human and robotic resources in the right places the interplanetary economy would be self-sustaining and would grow into the next century.
But to get to these levels of human and non-human resources in space we need to create the foundations and infrastructure to support them in orbit, on the moon, on mars and beyond and the transportation routes between the planetary bodies and the mining vessels for asteroid mining and mineral processing. There is alot of work ahead to get off this planet in a meaningful way.
Dook, the advancement of the human spirit, knowledge and society are based on experiences of humans not at arms-length viewing but the first hand experience. That is why we need to go to space, if we don't we become the small race of humans that never went anywhere, never experience first hand the universe and the close minded society.
Dook,
Its great to have a blinker carrying person in this forum. By the end of this year the multi-core computer processor will be out for commercial use starting with dual-core. Already the people at Intel and AMD have tested the quad -core as well. The 64 Bit language is getting rolled out by the end of next year we will have a 64 bit desktop, notebook, and servers.
That is current computer technology which supports all facets of the space sector. As the years move forward the technology within the vehicles gets increase in all aspects - speeds, complex calculations, graphics, voice, vision and more.
The spin-offs into energy research and control technologies including management systems for nuclear reactors will be updated and advanced. In every aspect of space requirements will be enhanced over the time and by the 2030's we will have advanced metal technologies and improved on new metals including extreme heat resistant and super strength alloys.
These are some areas that will be enhanced by the continuous improvements that are happening in Computer technology and the effects to other industry sectors that we need in space. So to answer you "blinker question of the 50,000 Humans in space by the end of (2199) of course they will be there and possibility of more, because our level of technology is growing at 400-700% faster than the speed of the industrial revolution.
Sorry not 2199 but 2099 through to 2101 the and end of the 21st century start of the 22nd Century
What about a competition for university students to show in some detail the development of an Interplanetary Economy with the locations of Earth, Moon, Mars and Asteroids.
The students must show what industrial sectors would go first up to a self-sustainable economy locally and interplanetary.
What do you think ? and What could be the reward for the competition ?
Dook,
The orderly progression of Humanity into space would be from earth to LEO to Moon to Mars and beyond for colonization, industry and society. Before this, We would have explorer missions and small outposts and mining camps then settlements.
As perviously outlined the large budget would provide the funding for the LEO Space assets, then provide the lunar infrastructure facilities and mining operations then the combined group would provide the necessary resources for Mars settlement.
By 2055 The governing authorities would be in a interplanetary security council and government with Lunar government and a Mars colony governor. The Lunar Government would have respresentatives attending the UN or (whatever the World government body is called ) and the Mars Colony will have overall government control from earth until they grow to the size of the Lunar Settlements then they are self governing.
The construction / development costs for infrastructure can be paid back through repayments based on a mining infrastructure development process on earth where the costs are capitalized and the settlers repay the costs back over a 30 year basis like a mortgage and to limit the costs other products could offset the costs like commodities etc.
A system can be developed easily for private enterprise not governments to build the infrastructure shipping and other transportation systems for interplanetary economy to function. Governments could build their internal economies based on taxation systems levied on their individual planetary bodies.
Dook , It can be done within the timeframe outlined previously to get 50,000+ humans ( approximately 5,000 in LEO and L Points, 28,000 on Moon in multiple locations, 15,000 on Mars in multiple locations, 2,000 on outposts across the star system and/or ships ) in space by the start of the 22nd century.
Dook,
We can achieve the larger space components, when we stop throwing the space components away in orbit or burn-up in the atomsphere. ( RECYCLE the name of the game ) and also (Re-Engineer the current designs for recycle and secondary use principles in all future designs ) use the question what happens after we use the component for the first use what then ? and create a second use . A second use industry can be developed for space objects and eventually lunar objects and martian objects as well.
First and foremost we don't new a junkyard in the orbit but a recycle center in orbit and break down launch vehicles, satellites, and other systems into base components and materials that can be used in new satellites, or launch vehicles from LEO to Moon and Mars, the control can be done from earth through human controlled tele-robotic teams. But we need the construction and engineering skills work teams that control the robotic systems in orbit.
I just showed another two industry sectors that are spin-offs from the main space program sector and can advance humans in space and reduce expenditure of space programs for future missions. That can lead to human residents in orbit and beyond.
Dook,
I am sorry I can't provide a link to the solar experiments on the increase of the Solar Energy production becuase of commercial confidentiality. Phrase 1 - Has been completed in a small test array the next is a full array then patents before public release.
To answer your statement about the automated construction system we have the engineered the construction components that are working but the issue that my engineers has outlined is with the delivery mechanism that requires to be automated for arms-length contruction through remote computer control systems including reloading of construction materials. As well to compact it down for launching from earth to the lunar surface. It will be ready for 2010-2015 Launch window for moon base development. Again Patent protection before public release.
Dook,
Space like earth is a dangerous place but we take risks everyday in life to expand our life towards goals that we set as a society and individual. The same will occur in space and some people will die in space and other will succeed and we need to keep the death low and the succeeds high.
Don't be afraid !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dook ,
Hehe, you believe in the statement "To boldly go where no-one has gone before"?
WE'VE BEEN TO THE MOON! WE HAVE A SPACE STATION IN ORBIT!
Then you criticize me for wanting to go to mars instead of the moon?
Yes I do, If you don't want to make the explorer missions to Mars - be the first step in a much larger push for a permanent presence on Mars within the next half-century ( by 2050-2055).
I am critical of anyone, doesn't have the goal of permanent human involvement in space with humans living and working in space from space and earth.
P.S. You call ISS a space station it is a toy platform - we need a true space station for residential living and science and industrial space orbiting platforms to conduct current and future research and production.
Dook,
The development of Moon and Mars are essential for the development of the outer planets in our solars systems because of the orbital differences they are provide communication, control, and human facilities to expand the human presence.
But the first thing we need to do is lower the dependence of human centric resources from earth and source them from space based assets starting with energy, food, then minerals include the processing of all these resources. The hardest resource to source outside earth is water, but it can be found and that would be future mining missions for the outer planets and moons.
It will take decades to bring the outer space community to a level of self sustainablility that earth environment has already. Once achieved they can grow and expand throughout our star system.
Answer a few of your questions :
1. Drive systems - by using electric propulsion by NASA and other Space Organizations ( ion or plasma ) can be sourced from any ionized compound doesn't need to be on the lower end of the periodic table either.
2. Water - moons throughout our solar system have water componunds frosen on these worlds. Also Comets have been made of water vapour mixed with dust, can be mined for the resources required. Working with near close environments with recycling systems reduce the loss of water reserves.
3. Energy - New Solar Panel System for industrial and residential platforms and orbiting stations that increase energy production by upwards of 500% on current production without any additional physical area used. Would provide the necessary power requirements for industrial in space.
4. A complete waterless flexible automated construction system to build outposts to city size settlements on outer space bodies - curremtly underdevelopment
and other developments to numerous to list.
All these are parts of the larger puzzle movement of humanity into space for a permanent presence and growth of our knowledge and understanding of the universe that we are part of and within.
Dook,
Thank you for a laugh at the crazy statements you have said. You don't have the first Idea about creating a viable human space community in our solar system. One of the largest evolutional changes for our society. One of main objectives is to move into space on a lower cost then the current platforms allow for, the answer remodel the current platform by working on incoming generating projects first then bring on the infrastructure required for those projects and plan for the next components that will provide the ground work for the future income streams.
At present we have not income generating assets in orbit for human space advancement. That should be the main focus, then you focus on the next income generating activity going for a joyride to Mars or developing a small scale mining and processing facility on the moon to extract ore and refine the metals and forge/rolling mill to process the minerals into usable components for lunar expansion and star system expansion.
Once the unmanned recon of mars is complete and the additional navigation and communication satellites have been placed around Mars the next phrase would be to send a foothold mission with all the necessary supplies for living on the surface for the time they are there, with priority in placing beacon towers on the proposed outpost sites.
If we do what you want , dook, we will still be in LEO after the joyride to Mars and back without any more to show then what happened to the apollo program for the moon. Its time to go back and stay permanently in space and expand into space and improve our technology and our knowledge and understanding of our solar system, galaxy and universe.
I have been talking over the past few posts the increased budget for the increase in space activity and the final expansion of humanity and the exploration ahead. As you like trekkie I see - I will add this " To Boldly go where no-one has gone before " a statement that I thought Mars Society tries to emulate trying to foster support for Mars.
I believe in that statement and I don't think you do, dook.
Dook,
If we had more people like you running the current space program that is why we haven't gone anywhere since landing on the moon. You have a tiny box for your perception of the world around you.
When you think about the development of a business methodology for outer space. You need to understand the risks, rewards, how to fund and the income streams for return on investment. Because space is new frontier for business the opportunities are enormous. An earth example would be the development of a new city from the planning to development of infrastructure such as roads, water, power and other utilities then onto the development of residential and business areas. The same applies when developing into space to create a viable presence in space you need to plan all necessary requirements and then develop those requirements and assembly the requirements in space.
For example an orbiting platform design for food production and processing would be a first step for presence in space, next would be manufacturing to recycle rocket modules and presence into new material components for other activities. Theses would help the creation of a permanent presence in earth orbit and on the moon Again you need to continue the explorer / foothold missions while the development of the space infrastructure increases to a point for settlement missions for moon and mars planetary bodies.
Inclusion Dook,
Another thing, about the infrastructure on earth and in space we don't have the necessary facilities for large scale off world development yet.