New Mars Forums

So, economically speaking, there is great impetus to get into space?

    Poltically speaking, the establishment is probably not interested in making competition for themselves by such a economically uplifting program. . . .

    Scientifically speaking, the benefits of space are limited unless they are tied to the economic and poltical arena. . .

    Therefore the spearhead to get in space must be resumed by the private sector. 
      Sure, a poltical organization is a great way to plan a space outing.  But the infamous moon treaty must be removed first, or at least debated with russia.
     That in itself is something rather risky as anti nukers will not like this for they will see it as a trojan horse for the miltary. 
      Therefore, in repudation of this treaty, a clause must be made of some sort.  And it does not have to be mentioned that in order for these events to transpire, attitudes about space exploitation and exploration will have to change a great deal. . .I am afraid it will have to be almost unaimoius consent of the USA (the voters, congressmen and the administration) to do such a thing.  Even more, it would take private and public companies to show a interest in exploitation. 

-Clark-   
When I said

I meant this in the context that they will have to have the skills necessary to run the enterprise (not the ship, look up the meaning of the word) and it would be more difficult to exploit them.  Skilled workers are usually organized (guild, unions, etc) and the employer will not be able to find replacements for them.  Supply and demand will largely ensure humane treatment of workers in space enterprises. 

-clark-
I would like if you gave me your thoughts (I appreciate them) on my website www.parksweb.com/nateweb

sorry I'm assuming rustyplanet is female. . .if you are not I sincerely apoligize.

I am not for doing the lease thing with the planetary union.

directly prior to the days of the spainish main, the catholic church made the line of demarcation with portuagual and spain.  What if, by some sort of lack of knowledge this union , league would do a simalar thing?  What would happen if a vast vein of gold (hypotheical at the moment) was found right on the line of demarcation?  only war would ensure.  and this organization might reconize corporations first, and hinder delevolpment as the major blocs of land would already be in the hands of companies.  perhaps the best compermise is to create some sort of local government, backed by some national government on earth (51st state?) or create what is known as a commonweal. 
     the reason people should go to space is to get rich.  but those people sure as hell won't be slacking off.  They must build almost everything from nothing-robotic techology does not come without a pretty exstensive infrastructure.  sure, techology would help them a lot, but they will be working their butts off, especially if it is a for profit organization.  Non profit organizations will probably not require anywere near as work.  rich people don't get rich by slacking off, they do it by working their butts off.   
    These people are unlikely to be exploited simply because there are no other people out there.  The colonizers of south america exploited the indians simply because they were there. . .the beauty of space is that it is almost impossible to exploit people up there.  The reason why is primarly because the majority of the people will have some sort of all-important skill that is neccessary to keep the colony running.  The new england colonys are a simlarity in that no local labor was around to exploit.  (for whatever reason, the new englanders did not enslave the indians)  The people in their communitys were respected and were given a sense of worth to the community.  On the other hand the south imported slaves from africa (a continuation of the spainish sugar plantation system) and essentaily forced them to work.  It is likely that humans in space will be very valuable to the comunity in the large, but it is also certian if they are there to work for profit, they are gonna work very, very hard.  It is not easy to make a infrastructure at all.  But it is possible.  Read my website at www.parksweb.com/nateweb for a suggestion on how a infrastructure could be errected, and for what reasons. 
    Right now, I hate to admit it, the conditions are not very good to allivate suffering in africa and other third world nations.  The dicators are not interested in improving conditions simply because they don't care.  and if someone's condition did improve, they will view it as a threat.  Would elimation of that dicator improve lives?  Probably not.  The Judeo-Christain view point is unique to europe and the usa when it concerns human worth.  If you are truly interested in allivating suffering support some missionarys-they are protected by the United States government (and a few others) in the countrys they help.  The dictators have little power over the missionarys in any case.  It is much better than UN aid.
      A governing body with powers as exstensive as clark wants is probably going to hinder and possibly even terminate exploration.  perhaps something more on the lines of a department in the government (like dept. agriculture) with the power to regulate land sales and directly answerable to the people.  In land sales two kinds of property ownership would become apparent-claims and actual use of the land.  If a enity would be or had actually used the land then it would have full rights of property (I might be wrong here, tell me if I am so) and a claim is just that, only with the legal backing of a government.

-Clark-

-Nate-
(thats me!!)

speaking of weight reduction. . .there is an unique oppoturnity in the field of weight reduction in space!  things weigh nothing in space! (sorry if I'm too startisic, make fun of my spelling if you like)

If what you really mean is mass reduction, then realize this. . .there is no gravity in space.  on earth gravity produces straitificoin of all things (oil and water, heavy goes to bottem and light goes to top) and the major problem with alloys is that when the mixing time comes they do exactly that.  a perfect mix (or as near to a perfect mix) can be achived in zero g.  further more, the casting of steel also falls into this same realm, (steel is a very dirty product to make) and is about 300-900x stronger without this stritification.  of course the natural questoins are
    1.Where do we get it?
    2.What are the benefits?

The asteroids are a prime canditate to gather the ores to make the metals.  Go to www.parksweb.com/nateweb  to read more about how I think the actual process will be done.

The benefits are pretty oboius.  (spelling, sorry!)  first off, with metal 300-900x stronger a lot less of it will be needed to make any ships.  all the ore is ready to be processed in near earth orbit is not exceedingly difficult (NASA sent the shoemaker probe to land on a near earth asteroid)  and is said to be easier to reach a asteroid than to go to the moon.  Am I advocating ships to be built in orbit? maybe, after a time peroid after the resquite techology is in place.  But the unfished metal could be returned to earth by casting crude saucers (lord help me . . .flying saucers) and loading the semi-finished metals to be shot to earth and processed.  ballons could be attached to the saucers to deploy once they hit the ocean to float them, and ocean going ships could retrive them.

Maybe in the early years the focus could be on developing long range railroads.  The advantages are enourmous.

   1.large masses could be transported with a modicum of energy.

   2.reliable.  The techology used in railroads has been on earth for 180 yrs, enough time to work out most of the bugs! 

   3.adaptable.  it does not take much effort to lay a railroad bed (although if a mining oparation occured, there would be a need for substaintal reinforcement of beds)  and almost any source of energy could be used to propel the train. .the tracks do not limit the type of train (except electric) on the tracks! 
 
   4.Cheap.  I'll grant the initial cost might seem a bit on the high side, but the tracks will last for 20-30 yrs of continuous use.  Don't forget martain gravity is less, making wear and tear less, too.  less wear and tear means less replacement, making it cheaper to run.

   5.verstile.  Anysort of cargo can be moved, including large, heavy and bulky pieces.  (mining, again, would most likly involve modification of track bed.

   6.fast.  It would be quicker than dune buggys for sure, never having to stop or slow down on the track.

There is no conspiracy. . .the only thing that stops the space program is the ingorance of the american public (and french, japanese public) concerning matters in space exploration.  people think space travel is for crackpots, and therefore anyone who even remotely suggests space travel should be done is a crackpot. 
  the public is like this:
   1.  space travel is BS
   2.  crackpots spew BS
   3.  therefore, anyone who mentions space travel is a crackpot.

that is not my personal thinking, but it is what I have observed-not just space travel but my religious beleifs (I am a card carrying calvinist(well, almost) and proud of it.)

Man is persuaded not by logic, but by emotional pull.  If one man goes one way, and everyone else goes the other, which way do you go?  Only with those whom you have an emotional investment (assuming you process emotionally) and the majority will almost absolutly win.  sorry  if I got a little sidetracked.

I agree with you.  The transaltanic trip would take a month in 1820 (start of the industrial revolution) and most of the people on ships would be staying in america (or europe) for at least 1-2 yrs or settle.

putting nanotech in humans sounds pretty dangerous, and the benefits go only to those who are directly involved in the process.  what if the nano tech was damaged by radiation and its own reproduction went out of control. . .it would be worse than cancer.  fortantly, if it does, the bearer would probably be killed so quickly the cancerous nanobots would die and run out of energy before finding another host.  The benefit sounds questionable at best, with augementation techologys. . .purhaps an inititative would better be suited to focus on the medical possiblitys.  (in the short term, not more than, say, 2 weeks, and only with terminal conditions)

We are always going to have enviromental problems.  If we let things like that hold us back, we (as a human race) will never make it into mars orbit.  (or anywhere for that matter)The spinoffs of a program to mars could provide some sort of enviromental benefit, too.

it doesn't matter how many people think he is a crackpot unless he actually is a crackpot.  I know he is not based on the agruement in "The Case for Mars".  most people will think with their hearts and think zubrin is crackpot if they hear him on coast to coast.  If jesus (pardon my blashemy) appeared on jerry springer he would be considered to be (forgive me I pray) white trash.  It is the perception of the viewer, not the agruement of the speaker that determines the outcome of such a meeting.  if zubrin goes to this radio station, he will forever be smeared as a crackpot for time enternity.  everyone before him thought they would be able to prove the listeners otherwise but none were able to.  It would be a tragic mistake to assume that zubrin could do so.

nuke space, I am in total agreement with you, other than the orion style rocket plan.  I believe NTR is a better choice simply because the techology is on the shelf (its been there for 30+ yrs) and it been done.  I do hold your thoughts about public activism and logical reasoning to be true.  I commend you for that.

Will doing the space exploitation actually make things worse as you have stated?  Won't doing nothing bring the same result?  space exploition brings the possiblity that your sceinaro might occur, however not doing it ensures that it will happen. . .doing nothing encourages stabilty.  In instabilty it is possible for those who would normally not be able to escape the confines of their class (yes, I truly mean class) to excel in instabilty.  Times of instabilty bring out the best (and worst) in people.  "In 500 yrs of peace and brotherhood in sweden, they came up with the cuckoo clock.  In 30 years of violent warfare on the italian pensuila, they came with Da Vinci, Micheleago, and many of the masters."  I cannot remember who said this specifically.  I do not advocate war or death but I must remind that anytime a major event like space colonization occurs it is for the benefit of mankind.  Who wants a Pax Mundana?(muduane peace, trans.)  I do not, for one.  I want this, with all of its passions and hardships to bear.  If others don't want it, thats fine, they won't recieve the benefit and be left behind with no hope of catching up for milliena to come.