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True it would, But there are a lot of proposals for various space tugs. But even having one in orbit would potentially be a commercial success it could recover lost satelites and still push cargo. If it was made powerful enough it could push items to the Moon or Lagrange points
Frankly the shuttle is a bust, if you want to go asteroid mining get another vehicle that one is a waste of space( ignore the pun)
The Esa probe smart seems the best step forward, if launched by a more powerful Launcher it could start visiting the Near Earth Asteroids to start proper Minerological and chemical surveys of these rocks. So what if it takes a long time its not as if we are going anywhere soon (sigh)
If Bigalows plans to launch 6 pathfinder Habs at a time on Russian rockets that is a lot of orbiting infrastructure. These will need supplies initially from Earth but soon supplied from the Moon and those Asteroids. Frankly Metal support struts and internal furniture will be the biggest imports to the Bigalow orbital hotel. Food and Drink will come from Earth, This is a hotel they will need the best, the creme de la creme.
If Bigalow gets his way there will be orbiting industries within 20years, He is relying on these to buy his inflatable Habitats. These industries will need supplies, these supplies can come from the Asteroids/Moon. So now there is a customer.
These industries will start small but if they take off they will need a constant supply of resources and materials. If they can be supplied cheaper than by earth launch then there will be Asteroid mining.
Oh to show how ridiculous the Lunar treaty is a Scottish solicitor has claimed the Sun, we now owe him for 2-3 Billion years of energy.
Quote (Smurf975 @ July 07 2004, 17:53)
I dont understand why you would want learning robots for something like the Darpa challenge. The route is known and simple logic should handle unknown obstacles
Well smurf the first thing is the route was NOT known it was a closely guarded secret until the morning of the challenge. The teams where then given a set of waypoints there robot had to make and the final place to stop. These waypoints where allowed to be put into the robots computers but it became up to the robot how to get there. It was the problems the robots had with the stimuli they had that caused most of the crashes.
What is simple logic?
To a robot there is no such thing. A robot must learn that you cant drive through a wall, that going too fast in poor terrain will cause you to crash. Programming this in is a nightmare and you cant teach every scenario. That was the whole idea behind the Darpa challenge. They Want robots that can respond to a changing enviroment, the robot must be able to get to those target points and in a schedule (Darpa set a time limit). Why did no team succeed even though some organisations had robots with $millions of equipment, they could not get this very easy idea of terrain to a human into a way of thought for a robot.
Oh, and to show just how new this science is the most original and "intelligent" robot there was created by amateurs and the likelihood the way they set there Robot up will be copied by all the big Universities with there MegaBudget and sponsors next year.
Why did the Darpa grand challenge fail, It didnt, there where no winners so what, it was a research mission.
The problem is that we have imbecile robots, to programme into a robot enough information to create an imbecile dog level of intelligence would take a team about 300 years. So we try to create self learning robots, these robots learn for themselves and as they grow they get brighter. We are at a very early stage with these technigues and technology.
The rest of the technology that robots need is coming along fine, we just cant make them think. So this means until someone comes along with a revolutionary fix, we must rely on teleoperation. This is ok for Lunar and Orbit uses, but the radio timelag becomes a major hindrance at further distances. This is a good thing for Human space flight as it will need operators closer to the construction and or mining site to operate the Robots.
As for Darpa well Grand Challenge 2 is coming to desert near you, Oh by the way as no one won the last prize its been added by another 1 million dollars making a prize fund of 2 million$.
I dont think any buisness interest will build a lunar or similar base, It requires a goverment to do that. But a goverment could create a company to do it. What im thinking is a company like the British East India company. This companies duty is to create the bases and would recieve a stipend from the goverment to do so, which slowly reduces. This company would do the research that allows profits to be made and would be granted the only licence to get them and to exploit.
The East indies company became a patriotic thing to invest in, It attracted the cream of people to work for it, It made new trade routes and colonized new lands, It had its own army and navy and was responsible for the forming of the British empire.
Well Esa is to get bigger, both greece and luxemburg are to join.
So Esa will get a slightly bigger budget, but as it really is a cheap space organisation will it mean any big plans coming to fulfillment. Esa always tries to do space missions and research as cheap as possible it does not have Nasa's money. The smart-1 mission is example of a succesful mission, Why successful, It has shown how to use an Ion engine effectively, It is using its instruments already, its a success.
So when Smart gets to the Moon it will even if it does not find any water will still have been a worthwhile mission. But it is the big missions, people to space, landings on the moon that mean more. This is the problem with Esa it cant afford to do them. It tries to do everything with a smaller budget, it manages by having less beauracracy compared to other organisations.
So if the people of Europe where to fund Esa as well as Nasa is, it would prove to quickly become a powerful force in space. Easily being able to fund the missions to the Moon and Mars that will lead to permanent prescence in space.
But until that happens, Esa will quietly plod along, doing small missions cheaply, waiting for a chance to grow up
Burt Rutan is hoping for space tourism to take off, his hope is that there is a demand he can then make money. But for space tourism to really take off he has to have someplace for them to go. This is an earth orbiting hotel. Unfortunatly he seems to be the only group actively going to try, I hear many plans but none really get off the drawing pad.
If, space tourism does take off this will allow there to be a possible profit motive that would get more active funding. If we could make a lot of the components for a space hotel cheaper using a moon base or similar would it not fall that this would recieve private finance. But for this all to happen we still need cheaper access to space. So to be saying i think Mr Rutan and his white knight might be the only hope we have to get anywhere sometime soon is not too far off the mark.
I cannot see space manufacturing or mining being a direct profit motive at the moment. It will only happen as we start making other items in orbit that will be profitable. It will be the job of this society and the others to ensure that when the moment comes we can grasp it and run.
An Example,
If we can show that a robot lead base on the moon can make and transport structural materials to the Hotel at a cheaper rate than being Earth launched, we get funding. If we can show that we are ready to start building this base as soon as, we can close deals. If we also bring the research into it we can expand the base and get bigger. So when the next item that makes a profit in space needs support we are there to do it. All the time we are getting bigger and ready to go for what we want, In the case of This society, Mars
Unfortunatly orbital manufacturing and mining is at a beginning stage. Im sure that we will find items that will make profits but at the moment if there is any it is a low class earner. We have proved in orbit we can make really large artificial crystals, just not what great economic benefit these can do. We know there is a lot of incredibly useful minerals, but it costs too much to get them. It is in a word frustrating. A lot of this societies and the other space advocacy groups lives would be a lot easier if we could point to something and say to the investor look Euros/Dollars/Pounds.
At the moment the only potential is research but it as all research is something that big buisness will rather do without, or expects results yesterday.
In the end until we get cheaper access to space we remain stuck here with our hopes and dreams.
The use of Iron/Nickell-Carbonylls was and is a major way to construct components in space. The way to manage this is to have a mold and put the carbonyll liguid in, bleed of the carbon Dioxide leaving a solid very strong component in place. This works well for nickel but a lot less for iron.
Also would not the use of Ion-sputtering if it could be perfected be a way to get all the metals and materials from an asteroid.
We could learn a lot from the Moon and with its "closeness" to the Earth its the perfect place to start being energy rich and it allows us to develop industries to allow constant manned prescence.
If we are thinking of the big picture you must remember. Mars Direct will not allow colonisation of Mars. It is a means to explore not to allow full scale human transportation to Mars and beyond.
If we wish to do that the moon becomes really important. An example to access the Asteroid belt the moon becomes a better "base" than earth orbit.
If you do want to go for legs use the millipede effect, Lots of legs. This can go for wheeled vehicles too.
Actually the three wheeled vehicle/bike is a good idea too. It will give those Moon Miners a real kick out of driving. Biker gangs on the moon anyone.
That legged habitat was using Pneumatics to provide power to its legs. Nice looking vehicle just not very practical, The Pneumatics under the change of tempature from the sun to the side that is shaded will give very different speed and action. This will lead to the vehicle being lamed and unsafe. I have been experimenting on trying to createa robotic ant. To try to counteract this I use memory metal type strands to provide muscle.
This is still possible to be affected by the lunar enviroment but is less affected by lunar dust. It is easier though to seal away these delicate devices and this gives a chance for some use on the moon and mars
But i really think that simplicity should be our word for using vehicles on the moon and mars. We will need to repair them when they break down, and they will. If it is reasonably simple to repair them it will make the work of the initial base and colony builders a lot easier. Not to mention with all the different terrains it will hint towards all terrain types tracks or wheels. And my thinking is that wheels with there less moving parts are easier to operate.
I Had a good look at that Hobot, It is a technical nightmare. The picture of the one with legs. Well the moon wont be forgiving imagine that lunar regolith dust and constant heat and quick cooling. I can be assured you will not go far in that thing.
The other Mobitat the one with wheels looking like some science fictions writers mobile home. That will not be used i think until there is a full time base already built. It will be made by that base or not at all, It cant be supported any other way.
Those Sicilians get everywhere
:bars2: :bars: :bars3:
Earthfirst if you think people need drugs to be able to get girls you have a REAL problem.
There is little chance of a gene bank being used to populate mars. There would be moral outrage and well women would hardly thankyou for giving them the job description part time pioneer full time breeding machines.
There will be children it will happen naturally and as we put more people on the planet the population will naturally increase. People will stay, they will have children, we will have a colony.
NASA's plans for mobile bases seem to be a bit flawed.
1) To build something that size will reguire, either orbital assembly as it will be far too big for any existing launcher or recent proposed launcher or being made at an already constructed lunar base. It will be as complicated as the ISS to assemble and probably as expensive requiring a lot of manned space walks.
2) It is a very limited idea of the exploration of the moon it can only survey, It cant actually use any resource it finds. There will be no use of insitu lunar materials at this base.
3) Safety of crews. Frankly unless it is very heavy it will have about as much radiation shielding as the ISS. The ISS is great it has the protection of the Earth. But on the moon the radiation count increases never mind a solar flare. One advantage of a permanent base is that it can put a lot of shielding to the human compartments so almost eliminating this risk.
4) Finally, This base lends itself to the credence of being a flags and footprints mission. It is never designed to go and permanently stay on the moon. It is a superb example of a really expensive white elephant.
Soap is really only fat with a perfume added in and a few other toiletries to make it more presentable.
Modern mankind uses a lot of chemical processes but it just comes down to using the right plants. The best soap plant is the humble soya bean! It apparently gives the best Hydrogenated fat(cooking oil) which is needed at an economic rate of collection.
We also need a lye or sodium hydroxide, This is created by putting a current through a brine solution(salty water) and the lye is formed as a white solid substance. It also releases chlorine which is needed in a lot of other industrial processes.
I think youll find there is a lot of interest in the resources above our heads. Well if you have read the posts about India you will see that they believe it to be in there countries best interest.
Sure there are lots of minerals still on Earth but they are getting harder and harder to get at each year, Or we dont want the consequences of going for them. By this im talking mining antartica, the bottom of the ocean etc.
Why should we make this world barren just because we find it easier. This is our home you dont make a mess on your doorstep or throw your rubbish over your neighbours fence.
The space elevator seems to be the way to allow full scale human colonisation of space. Even making one will be a great adventure as it will reguire a lot of orbital work, Carbon Nano-tubes need a vacuum to be made. Great lets go for it, when we can.
Ah but they can jam it only in one area like any other contibuting partner to it, And vice versa the European Union has got the same powers and a bit stronger as they will actually be running it to do the same.
PS both China and Russia are partners of the new system.
YES we should
My personal idea is to try out inflatable structures.
Right you are not going to believe this, But
1) Cabbages, These are important for women who breast feed as they provide the main materials for cooling pads and the leaves are a natural means to cool inflamed breasts.
2) Nappies, Martian Nappies will be a mixture of disposibal and terry towel, The insides will be made of natural product that can be made of local vegetarian produce. These to clean we remove from the outside cover which is made of very durable mars made plastic and the innards shredded and put through the Bio waste machinery we use for human excretia and is so much fertiliser. The more durable outsides will be seperated from the inners when used. To clean these it will not need a major cleaning facility. Why its cold on mars really really cold. We put the nappies to be cleaned outside during the martian night, before dawn we then brush off the super frozen material putting it through a small locally made machine then it is put back into the drum which we had it in the night for and left exposed to the vigors of the martian daytime and all that hard Ultraviolet radiation killing off any other germs.
After that the outers will be combined with the new made inner moisture absorbing natural pads and ready for use.
3) Milk, Frankly we are going to export a machine to make artificial human milk and forget the cost this is too important.
4) Baby cream, This is moisturiser and anti irritant in one. Long before the first child is born on mars supplies of this will be had. Why, Martian Fines, small dust particles, will be a constant problem to martian humans they will get everywhere and even worse in a dust storm. Unless we use cream like this liberally we run the risk of the debilitating diseases caused by constant skin irritations, Not to mention driving the humans on mars mad.
5) Baby clothes. We will rely on our agriculture a lot more than people realize also on our ability to make fabrics from mars plastics. We will make clothes suitable for children. It is not hard. Also goats, They are hardy milk producing wooly animals, Well im thinking a new slogan mans best friend the goat. These we will send to mars, and children get first dibs.
And for those who call me a tree hugger for mentioning cabbages it is a TRADITIONAL SCOTTISH way of solving certain womens problems
When I was on a boat off Norway 10 years ago the sea seemed to be on fire, This was the methane/HydroCarbons stored at the bottom of the sea having been released, Through a minor sea quake or subsurface Sea slide.
I have great respect of these substances, They are an untapped resource or a potential Hazard to life. Frankly unlike oil we do not know how much there is of it or what tempature rise in the water would release it. It is a natural process that forms it and it is continous and does not necassarily need millions of years of pressure to form them, unlike oil.
I had a long talk with a Professor of Geology in Aberdeen who was of the opinion it would be able to form large deposits in only 20 Years.
We have no idea how long it will take to get mars an increased atmosphere and one which will reduce the radiation exposure of the planet below.
But our estimates are in the hundreds of years possibly in the thousands. So we are to keep mars as a science outpost till then. Sorry no. One of the reasons we go to mars will be to colonize it. The people may well be mostly scientists but they are there to expand the human race. And to expand the human race takes children. Its children which are the races future.
And children are more susceptible to radiation induced illnesses than adults. So we will make our bases and we will make them a lot safer for those children.
What it means is that the GPS can be switched off in an area if it was so wanted. This has never happened but it has always been a means to hurt enemies.
The Galileo system will as it uses more satelites and broader coverage allow improved resolution. This means its applications for civilian life are huge. It will allow driverless cars that "know" where they are using GPS. This is science fiction stuff which came a lot lot closer.