New Mars Forums

Griffin's plan in a nutshell appears to be to use ISS support and crew transfer to jumpstart alt-space (SpaceDev & t/space) with CEV to be capable of LEO return from the Moon. (Hat tip to John Creighton for the cogent analysis).

Did you go right to the source?

Link:

Scaled up SpaceShipOne rubber rockets?

I believe Griffin would be willing to pay substantially more than the cost of Soyuz (if substantially less than the projected $400 million cost per launch for CEV+CLV).

If SpaceDev can fly its variant of the HL-20 to LEO, then I'd say the chances of them selling seats to tourists come close to 100%.

Indeed, using this HL-20 variant for suborbital tourism may happen first.

As for lunar real property rights, I oppose any near term comprehensive "solution" as being politically non-viable.

Nonetheless, under current international law, a growing consensus holds than moon miners can "own" whatever they extract however they cannot own the land itself (akin to fishing in international waters).

Regulations akin to "no littering" would be sensible.

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What follows reads my argument backwards.

Marketing can be tacky, crass and sleazy. Often is.

However, prohibiting such conduct will not allow us to achieve "transcendence" - - offer another way to fund space and I will listen. To deny any role for media and marketing revenue as being crass or "whore-ish" aspires to a form of purity, of transcendence, I find to be an illusion.

Taxing people and using that tax revenue to allow a priestly class go do science on the Moon is not a more noble route to pursue.

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The central point to Adam Smith is that large numbers of human beings, relatively equal in power, and allowed to choose freely will lead to a healthier happier society than a society where some central planner says what is permitted and what is not.

Personally, I find the whole space tourism thing very much over-rated. However, to say that too loudly at the other places I visit tends to get me flamed. 

So, being a diplomatic soul, I employ the classic "Yes, and" or "Yes, but" rather than "no"

As always, such issues are rarely either / or. The phrase "nothing more" and the phrase "blatant whoring" suggests a denial of the essential human ambiguity that we are flesh and blood yet also have aspirations for trancendence all rolled into one package. (Is Platonic trolling like platonic love?)

The Moon can be a source of PGMs without being "nothing more" a source of PGMs.

Besides I believe in private property and I assert Adam Smith was the first true modern liberal. But that discussion will outlive both of us, I am sure.

Uninhibited freedom? Sounds good to me, within reason.  8)

Sensible zoning (or its celestial analouge) is called for. Yup, radio noise near a FarSide scope is a bad idea. Light pollution near a big lunar liquid telescope is a bad idea.

But there is no platonic or ideal solution even if laser links for data flows are coming on line and will partially solve such problems.

Strip mining? I oppose unregulated, unrestricted strip mining, anywhere.

Done sensibly to help re-green the Earth? A worthy trade.

No. But fuel cells need platinum. The house always covers all its bases.

And direct methanol fuel cells are way cool. Imagine portable light fixtures and electronic gadgets using LED lighting and direct methanol fuel cells.

No need to wire a home. The same standard of living (or better) at a much lower cost.

All made possible by the wonders of platinum. 

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Seriously, direct methanol fuel cells will do nothing for global warming but would reduce the total waste stream arising from used up batteries.

Throwing away fewer batteries allows us to live "more lightly" to use the green metaphor.

Space exploitation will not work (IMHO) unless the exploiters persuade humanity in general that the species benefits from entering space. Adventure or exploitation as we normally think of it won't be enough to raise sell the billions that are needed

Space TV as a variation of "Survivor" simply will not sell at the levels needed to buy the necessary equipemnt. A sound stage is sufficient for that

This guy wrote an interesting short story about the first expedition to Mars with the viewers at home being more interested in the heroine's bra cup size than the science. IMHO that is a ludicrous scenario since that type of media cannot raise the billions needed to do the job.

Only a story that resonates more deeply than shallow sex appeal or other tacky themes can raise the billions needed to exploit space.

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By the way, if Dennis Wingo is correct about exploitable PGMs being present in lunar asteroid fragments, returning lunar platinum will materiallly increase Terran standards of living.  Its a theory, but its exploitation of a resource we can all benefit from.

Cut the price of platinum in half and every new car will cost $50 - $75 less than today, because of the cost of the catalytic converter.

If we sell souvenir coins to build the infrastructure to do that, so what?

A few weeks ago I spent a morning in Chicago's Art Institute. I don't go there often enough.

The art was stunning, of course, however I was also struck by the donor name plates that were plastered everywhere. Rubloff, Pritzker (sp?) and many of the other wealthy Chicago families.  Oh, and Boeing. heh!

Advertising. Tasteful, Art Institute vetted advertising. 

A group of us sat in an audiotorium named after a wealthy heiress.  So what?

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Retired USAF General Pete Worden has said that he tells rich capitalists that they should do things like fund liquid mirror telescopes on the Moon "to atone for their sins" - - of course he wants a big telescope to play with.

Is tax revenue really "cleaner" - - that is the question, IMHO.

By the way, google liquid mirror telescopes. Waaay waaay cool.

A large lunar liquid mirror (use mercury) telescope could make Hubble look like a child's toy at a surprisingly affordable price.

Rxke, there is nothing "mere" about clark. 

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When he trolls, it's usually very well done and you gotta admire a really good troll.

PS - - Do some people waste their lives? Squander the few moments we are granted?

Yup. Film at 11.

Is that a reason for  not going to the Moon?

Rxke said he liked it also, over in malaprops

I read somewhere that JIMO (or at least the nuclear propulsion portion) has been removed from the budget.

Was that my bet with clark or Josh Cryer's bet?