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#126 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-20 13:02:03

Gorgeous new detailed panorama of the Columbia Hills available here...

[http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/SCIbigpan_web.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/SCIbigpan_web.jpg

Are you ready? A new, great "scoop" is going to appear on funny-forums and stupid-magazines:  :band:
spirit-martian.jpg

tongue      roll

Luca

#127 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-15 01:40:07

My simple 800$ digital camcorder has a nice feature called "auto white balance": you point it to a white sheet, you click the button, and - tah-dah! - :band:  you have your colors automaGically balanced, just as human eye does when looking at differently enlightened scenes! If I don't use auto-white-balance, if I shoot pictures INSIDE home they look yellowish, due to artificial illumination; but, after the auto-balance, white objects appear white, no more yellow.

But that´s the point: It´s corrections are made by just one color, not by all colors possible.  That makes that it´s theoreticaaly never exactly possible to deteeeermine the right color.

I think this is the method used by human eyes to make "color calibration": this is the reason for which it is used in camcorders.
When I look around inside my home, ALL objects are enlightened by yellow lights, so ALL colors are changed with the same yellow-factor: when I make "white-balance", I subtract the exceeding yellow component from all objects I look at, so I don't feel like looking at yellow landscape (but I catually see a yellow landscape into my camcorder, if I don't make white balance!).
I suppose the same would happen on Mars: as soon as I would arrive on Mars, I would see all reddish, but then my eyes would adjust ("white-balance"), and I would see "true colors"... or not?!? ???

In case of Viking these problems where bigger than yet.

What are you talking about?


Beside that, more the fact with the Venera´s, even your calibration-sheets on your spacecraft can be wrong, because of filtered sunlight or  dust in  the air or on your sheets.

See above.

Luca

#128 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-15 01:33:11

Hi Cassioli!
    It's interesting you should mention animals moving around near the MERs;[...]
    One can certainly visualise such creatures being effectively invisible to the MER cameras, unless two consecutive shots happened to pick up a 'rock' changing position.
    However, in view of the characteristics of the soil, visible in the pictures we've seen so far, there would surely be tell-tale tracks in the sand to alert us to the movement, wouldn't there?

Good point... smile

One more objection to the idea is that animals require food; herbivores need large amounts of vegetation and carnivores need proportionately larger numbers of herbivores to prey upon. Leaving aside the complexities of the carnivore/herbivore ratio, is there enough vegetation to sustain even quite small herds of browsing 'rocks'? So far, I haven't seen any incontrovertible signs of vegetation at all.

...bluberries?
Ok, I'm joking...


While it would be interesting to see 'auto white balance' pictures of the sky on Mars (I'm one of the heretics who think the martian sky is probably blue-tinged quite often, when airborne dust levels are low enough) and panoramic movies in glorious colour, I don't think we'd actually see anything moving. There's just no food for animals to feed on.

I wonder why Polar Lander had a microphone installed...  tongue  To listen to the wind?...

Luca

#129 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-14 03:00:25

This is quite a hard job, because the sensitivity of the three color-sensors has to be the same as that of the human eye. Calibration can go wrong, because it's in fact never totally sure that the reproduced color of a screen represents the same mix of frequncy's. Exact calibrating needs strictly for every color a particular mix of calibration-values. Compromises have to be made. In color-transmitting of television-signals it's even a problem. That's one of the reasons televison-white is a little blueish. But no doubt...... Mars is red!!! :rant:

My simple 800$ digital camcorder has a nice feature called "auto white balance": you point it to a white sheet, you click the button, and - tah-dah! - :band:  you have your colors automaGically balanced, just as human eye does when looking at differently enlightened scenes! If I don't use auto-white-balance, if I shoot pictures INSIDE home they look yellowish, due to artificial illumination; but, after the auto-balance, white objects appear white, no more yellow.

Didn't they have some hundreds of bucks out of those 800 million, to add a simple commercial camcorder to all those instruments?...  ???
This would have also solved another simple problem: if there was something moving (!) around the rovers, we'll never know, just because they can't shoot frames quick enough...
They could be even surrounded by martian bugs looking like little rocks, and we would never know, as rovers have no life-detection or motion-detection systems! Maybe they were too expensive... but it's quite interesting how a simple 800 bucks instrument would have solved these problems!  smile

Luca

#130 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-13 05:08:12

[...] (And maybe the enhancing process also did things to the Martian sky which made the image less photogenic or less comprehensible.)

If they really "cleaned" the sky becuase "it was not good to see", they are REALLY stupid!  :angry:
This is NOT a scientific behaviour!!! :realllymad:

Luca

#131 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-13 05:01:40

Regarding blueberries near Bonneville Crater: isn't Bonneville inside Gusev, 180 degrees around the planet from opportunity?

         -- RobS

Yes. Unfotrunately I couldn't find orbital color image of opportunity's site.  sad

Luca

#132 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-13 04:56:04

That's just jpeg compression you're looking at.  You're "raw" image isn't raw at all--it's highly compressed jpeg.  You can even see the compression blocks.

As for the color, NASA's images look pink and washed out because to the human eye Mars would look pink and washed out.  The raw images have more contrast because the cameras are designed to work in the range of light available on the martian surface.

The strange thing is that I can see compression blocks in the lower part of NASA image (terrain), but not in upper part (sky).  ???

Luca

#133 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-13 04:54:47

I dont think they would be doing that kind of wholesale editing of the images (pasting in dull pink skies), especially when everyone outside NASA has teh same data to build with. it seems possible that noise is just getting compressed away

I think compression should INCREASE noise...

[...]but regarding the same picture data being different colors in the hands of NASA: A big part of it has to do with how a user puts the images together. There was [http://www.atsnn.com/story/30048.html]an article a few monts back that dealt with some of these issues.

I don't mind the color, I  am looking just at the noise: if there is noise in R, G, and B components, it MUST be present also in RGB composition!

But maybe other users of this forum proposed the right explanation: there are no raw images available on Internet, only COMPRESSED raw images, while probably NASA built that panorama from REAL raw images, with no noise... although it still looks quite difficult that the sky is actually so flat, with no color variations (blue or pink, it is not important).

Luca

#134 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-12 04:01:59

Guys, I found a great image:
Gusev_HSRC_THEMIS_mosaic_thumb.jpg
(From [http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/]Markoff's site).

Now we know what that dark area is made of!
Blueberries!!!

If it's true, this image also shows that they have some sources: you can see them near the "bonnevill crater" text. There are some craters from where the dark tracks depart, maybe due to the wind bringing away the blueberries from the sources.

It would be interesting if, after reaching Columbia Hills, we could get South, to the VERY dark area... But probably it is definitely too far: reaching Columbia will be already a difficult task to accomplish. sad

Luca

#135 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-12 03:07:58

And how do you know the sky is hidden? I don't see what is missing.

             -- RobS

Really you don't see it?!?  :hm:
Don't you see that in the original images the sky is blue and "noisy", while in NASA's ones is flat and reddish?
Don't you see, in the detail of NASA image, the difference between the upper part of the image, flat and "perfect", and the lower part, irregular and  noisy?

It's quite obvious that the sky has been cut and replaced with flat color. If it was just a color matter, it could be "noisy red", but it CAN'T be a flat color, the raw images are VERY noisy!

Look again:

raw image                                                                       NASA image
detail-l7.jpg       detail-NASA.jpg

Luca

#136 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-12 03:02:37

??

What's you point?  Is there supposed to be something in the sky?

Don't ask me what I am asking to you!  big_smile

Luca

#137 Re: Unmanned probes » Nasa hoax: why?!? » 2004-04-11 12:51:57

I don't believe in NASA conspiracy, in  hidden Martians, in plants&animals spotted by Spirit & Opportunity, I just believe in what I can see, and THIS is what I see:
89-MIO-th.jpg
My composition from [http://www.lyle.org/mars/bysol/2-089.html]raw images

91-marcoff-th.jpg
[http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/spirit_index_81_100.html]Marcoff's composition

89-nasa-th.jpg
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 20040408a/]NASA composition

Details:
detail-mio.jpg  detail-NASA.jpg  detail-marcoff.jpg  detail-l7.jpg

(Last one is raw l7 pancam image).

Why do they hide the sky? There is nothing there!!!  :hm:  ??? :rant:

Luca  :realllymad:

#138 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-10 06:14:15

This anim is little enough, so I can put it here:
anim-trench3.gif
Opportunity trench, Sol 73.
In real-time, the trench was completed in 27 minutes!

But there is also a [http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 3-maxi.gif]full-res 5MB (!!!) version available.

Luca

#139 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-10 03:38:22

I found a [http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/]great site for Spirit/Opportunity color images!! :band:
(It's not Keith Laney's one).

Luca

thx, very good site indeed, it makes me wonder how much other really cool stuff is hidden on the lyle.org servers!?!

Nice question!

(i use lyle.org every day becuse of their browse scheme, i hardly ever use NASA anymore).

So do I, since several weeks. :;):

Luca

#140 Re: Unmanned probes » More 3d anim - warning, large downloads! » 2004-04-09 03:57:43

Thanks to the great work of [http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/]Daniel Crotty, now we have amazing color animations:

Example:
anim-trench.gif

Others:
[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … rench2.gif]Trench - 2 (1MB)

[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini/anim-tri.gif]"Triangle" (which was the real name?!?) 600 KB

[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … -color.gif]Blueberries - changing shadows 900KB

[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … -color.gif]Blueberries - changing shadows - bowl  600KB

Luca

#141 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-09 02:39:43

I found a [http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/]great site for Spirit/Opportunity color images!! :band:
(It's not Keith Laney's one).

Luca

#142 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-09 02:21:35

Why the hell do they delete the real sky and replace it with "flat red"?!?

08-JT-03-easthills-A094R1_br.jpg
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … A094R1.jpg](look at zoom to see that the sky has been deleted; you don't need to download the full 3+ MB image, just the upper part).

Luca

#144 Re: Unmanned probes » More 3d anim - warning, large downloads! » 2004-04-09 02:07:15

Oops... now they ACTUALLY work... there were some problems with file reading permissions, sorry.

Luca

#146 Re: Unmanned probes » More 3d anim - warning, large downloads! » 2004-04-08 15:52:48

3d color hills:

images built by me from raw ones, Sols 88-89-90:
[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … -89-90.gif]first  (800KB)

animation from Keith Laney and NASA images (fist Sols - Sol ~90):
[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini/anim-hills2.gif]Second  (600 KB)

You will have to zoom-out them to appreciate the 3d effect.

Luca

#149 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-06 02:13:30

Interesting idea... But it is not on a vulcano-crater-floor.

Probably just old impact-craters, but i have a *wilder* idea: suppose there are remnants of life on that plains, underground, and they 'eat' rock... causing the surface, over time, to cave in, because some of their metabolising changes part of the soil into gases (methane, for instance, heh) wich escape... leaving 'holes'...

But these isolated 'pits' would mean the organisms stay close together, maybe living off some isolated concentration of (fill in your favourite yummy chemical)

This is a very wild idea... :;):

I think that the surface temperature is suitable for existence of ice, and that underground volcanic activity could explain why it is not detected from orbit; maybe there could be no hot lava under those craters, but just warm water flowing under the frozen surface, causing sinking in some areas were ice is thinner.
Warm water could be the result of hot lava warming it butfar from here... I think Opportunity should follow the crater (which actually looks more like a rut than like a creater), to see where it come from, or where it goes to. (I am thinking to something like underground river).

Luca

#150 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-04-06 01:30:56

This remebers me something:
1P134412870EFF0900P2414L7M1.JPG
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 14L7M1.JPG](zoom)

Some years ago, I had a walk on Mount Etna, an Italian volcano: it was covered with one or two meters of snow, and over the snow there were some centimeters of gray dust, due to an eruction of some days before. Under the snow, there were some areas were hot lava was still flowing, and this caused the dust-covered snow to sink, creating "craters" similar to these ones, which do not look like impact craters, but look like originated by soil sinking, in my opinion.

I hope I'll be able to find old photos about what I am talking about.

Luca

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