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Cindy, he was temporary and if I recall correctly he stated fairly openly he did NOT want the permanent position.

Another good http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.htm … 1]SpaceRef link on Griffin.

See the bold section. Can you say 5 segment RSRB + RL-60?

Edited By BWhite on 1110581284

A sample of Griffins]http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=10683]Griffin's testimony to Congress, via SpaceRef.

I like his "why" answers, which focus on human expansion into the solar system, not merely presence. Rock collectors are present, then leave. Expansion requires settlement.

Anyway, a quote:

Edited By BWhite on 1110580360

"WHY?"  matters to a very great degree here.

If 6 lunar missions between 2020 and 2035 fulfill the "vision" of the VSE then an L1 station is not necessary and is an un-needed expense.

But if we only use expendable landers then we are no closer to a substantial and sustained presence.

Even if we have fancy viewgraphs for what we will do in 2040 or 2050.

(Add: This should drive the EELV & HLLV decision. If we want a less expensive skimpy program, okay go EELV, but understand what we are buying may not be what enthuses the public, who elect the politicians, who write the checks.)

= = =

With a depot at L1 with stockpiles of lunar LOX and Terran methane, re-useable landers can land anywhere on the Moon at any time. As often as crew can fly from Earth to L1.

Edited By BWhite on 1110570642

Lunar LOX? Absolutely essential!

However, shovel regolith into a closed chamber and heat with a passive solar furnace and O2 is extracted. Pyrolysis is simple and requires little expensive or massive equipment. Who cares if it is inefficient from a chemists point of view. Its darn cheap from an accountant's point of view.

Use parabolic inflatable/gossamer mylar mirrors plus pumps and compressors. A few hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment. Maybe a million or two, at most.

Lunar H2 or methane?

There just won't be any without massive infrastructure. Massive infrastructure cannot be built without large amounts of mass sent from Earth. As like Taylor Dinerman wrote, sending giant Catepillar trenchers and bulldozers may well need an HLLV.

So, we need to find a way to ship methane or LH2 to L1 (or LEO?) cheaply and efficiently. An HLLV could throw a decent supply of methane to L1 in a single throw. Add a rigid superstructure of trusses around your hab and use the methane tanks as a rad shield.

Suppose we assigned a Proton or a 5 segment SRB + RL-60 upper stage to deliver methane to L1. What would be the net price per pound?

Whatever that price is, how will you ever extract lunar LH2 or LMe for less than that price, without a truly massive upfront infrastructure investment?

Factoring in upfront costs of capital, extracting lunar LOX and bringing methane from Earth will be the most efficient route for a long time to come.

= OR =

We can declare that space exploration is essentially ON HOLD until we deploy honest-to-God RLVs. Except for a handful of flags and footprints stunts allowing us to pretend we are exploring space.

Because going to the Moon with EELVs using architecture we know is too flimsy to accomplish anything permanent is merely an Emperor's New Clothes type of undertaking.

AND - - as of today, no one is funding the R&D needed to build honest-to-God RLVs.

It strikes me that the VSE is falling "in between" EELV and SDV in terms of whether we "need" 100MT boosters. EELV is just too small to support permanent presence on the Moon and SDV may be just too big (& expensive) to fit NASA's budget and there does not appear to be a "just right" solution.

EELV may be better if the medium term goal (15-25 years) is to go slowly and postpone permanent presence for several decades while SDV may be necessary if the 15-25 year goal is to achieve and maintain a substantial presence on the Moon.

And, if Mars is to be anything more than "after the Moon, whenever. . ." EELV will plainly be insufficient.

= = =

Heh!

It always comes back to "why" we are going. At least IMHO.

Edited By BWhite on 1110563332

Yeah, well, whatever. . .

But the thought of dogs and cats doing, well - - you know.

Regardless of the importance of the bill, some of the cross-dressing comments at these blogs are pretty funny.

Speaking of Mexico, here is some gringo http://www.tdg.ch/tghome/tgnews.detailc … 0.html]mud in your eye!

Edited By BWhite on 1110479049

Actually, Bush may end up doing more good in ways he never intended.  He may serve as that hypothetical alien invasion fleet getting the rest of the world to unify and work for the common good.  :;):

=  =  =

Or maybe Bush does consciously intend to play act the wild 12 year old waving a loaded 45 caliber in order to scare the world straight. You know, that might actually work for the common good of humanity even if the US ends up with far less global influence, far sooner, because the rest of the world is scared shitless and stops all their petty quarrels.

Okay, I feel better, now.   

Thanks!

Edited By BWhite on 1110383518

Actually, much of my objection to our current foreign policy is my belief that our current strategies will seriously diminish our ability to influence future events.

In other words, Bush is popping the bubble of American supremacy far faster than George Soros dared hope and therefore our ability to Ameri-form global culture before our supremacy evaporates is thereby lessened.

How is this happening? By using hammers on screws and saying we have no need of screwdrivers.

Here is a time bomb waiting to explode.

Increasingly, credit card data processing is being moved to India. Suppose we (America) got into a nasty geopolitical fight with India and to "pay us back" the Indians give our credit card data to mafia types who simultaneously launch 20 million identity theft attacks.

Twenty million Americans suddenly find thousands of dollars billed to their credit cards for Chinese run porn web sites and ALL the records are in India, and have been scrambled.

When I have I ever disparaged myself? I merely predict bad consequences will flow from foolish decisions made by my fellow countrymen.

And there have been a great many of those, recently. 

Edited By BWhite on 1110326807