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#101 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Reduce Government Drag » 2003-04-16 15:37:14

Consider yourself ignored until you say something with substance.

Do I have an echo?

So, in other words, until I agree with you.  Got it.

#102 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War? » 2003-04-16 14:08:04

Right.  The idea that all military production will be shifted to space production is ludicrous as well.  An airplane requires vastly different tooling from a spacecraft, so your average subcontractor will not be able to simply say, "OK, let's build a spaceship today."

And your typical bin Laden is going to be even more brash when Mars begins to be colonized, perhaps bombing spaceports and factories to prevent space access.

#103 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Reduce Government Drag » 2003-04-16 13:59:32

Trolling?  Ah, I see, as long as somebody supports your fringe view of economics, it's not trolling?  If somebody opposes you, no matter how right they are, they're trolling?

And besides, I've resolved not to discuss economics with you until you have a real grasp on the realities of economics.  So you can postulate all you want on the brilliance of Proudhon.

#104 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War? » 2003-04-16 13:21:28

And interestingly, England gets let off the hook after a certain point; before 1776, Parliament declared it illegal for Colonists to attempt to move into and settle land west of the Alleghenies because such a move would infringe upon the rights of the Native Americans.  No more land was to be taken from them, so Parliament decreed.

Or so was the public rationale.  The real reason?  French Louisiana claims, fear of American strength, and so on.  Parliament did this to protect English interests.  They were done with the New World, except for Canada, so they wanted to keep it off limits to any potential dissenters.

#105 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Reduce Government Drag » 2003-04-16 13:03:15

Wow, your economic analysis is completely off, once again. 

Capitalism allows you to keep the fruits of your labor, while socialism and communism, and other similar "equal" systems do not.  If I outproduce my neighbor, under these so-called "fair" systems, I do not get my share of the resources, no, my output is robbed from me and distributed to my underproductive neighbor.  However, in capitalism, these "exploited slaves" can quit and work somewhere else, for money.  They can start their own business.  This "life of servitude" is a fallacy.

This kind of an economy would never work.  Management is a necessity in any enterprise.  Why do all democracies have an executive branch?  Because there has to be a top manager. 

With equal resource appropriation, as in the USSR, there is no incentive to work harder, and thus, the economic model will never work.

#106 Re: Interplanetary transportation » De-orbiting from LEO revisited - How to avoid highspeed re-entry » 2003-04-16 12:55:03

Mars Direct is explained in the most detail in Zubrin's _The Case for Mars_

#107 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2003-04-16 04:34:44

The second amendment was also written when America had just received independence due to militias, without which, the country would not have been able to defend itself.  This is obsolete today.  We have a military, and don't need civilian militias to defend ourselves. 

From findlaw.com:
" In spite of extensive recent discussion and much legislative action with respect to regulation of the purchase, possession, and transportation of firearms, as well as proposals to substantially curtail ownership of firearms, there is no definitive resolution by the courts of just what right the Second Amendment protects."

They may have privately been against gun control, but that was before the machine gun, pistol, Mine bullet, etc.  And, they did not write that gun control is explicitly illegal, either.  So, modern interpretations are applied.  Notice, that most people, given training and a law-abiding background, can own a gun, which follows the text of the Bill of Rights (which are Amendments, themselves) We are not bound by the personal desires of 18th century founding fathers.

The exact text of the second amendment:

" No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. "

In peace, and in war.  Obviously, this means that there are peacetime soldiers.  You were saying?

#108 Re: Planetary transportation » Routine launches to LMO - Volcano slope maglev launching ramps » 2003-04-15 20:00:00

Actually, no.  Mt. Kilamanjaro is not already in motion, so inertia favors the Martian moons in terms of ability to be moved.   :laugh:

#109 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War? » 2003-04-15 13:19:32

It is already a disaster in Iraq, where the US aims to rule the country by force through a military administration, leaving only when the government it has imposed is suitably stable.

Actually, it worked quite well in Iraq, and we intend to leave after a few months.  Nice try, though.

not heeding such annoyances as international law or the peaceful disapproval of other nations, even powerful ones

Except for the fact that UN approval is not needed for war (as China and Russia have shown quite well), and we have had the legal basis for war since the early '90s.  Again, nice try.

#110 Re: Planetary transportation » Routine launches to LMO - Volcano slope maglev launching ramps » 2003-04-15 13:14:26

So if you were to use an oil rig (in water), or a mobile structure (on land) as your base, it would be fairly "easy" to move it out of harm's way, avoiding any collision?

#111 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Languages - Parlo Italiano - What langauge should be the Official? » 2003-04-15 04:36:47

There's a reason Europe switched to the Euro, and America uses a  uniform dollar.  If interstate commerce was done with multiple currencies, it would grind to a halt.  Foreign currency exchange is hard enough (although most nations I know accept the dollar), which is why most countries have standard currencies.

I have to run now, I'll finish the post later.

#112 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2003-04-14 20:42:37

I would have to disagree.  People are allowed to keep and bear arms, but with regulations.  If I were to scream "fire" in a movie theater, I would be arrested, but this does not mean that my freedom of speech is being infringed. 

My understanding is that the fourth amendment leaves gun control up to the lawmakers.  It never explicity says it is illegal, nor does it say it is legal.  Interpretatively, it is not unreasonable to conclude that as long as gun ownership is allowed, then gun control is constitutional.

#113 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2003-04-14 19:38:57

There's gun control, a standing army, and wars without an actual declaration of war by congress. These all violate the constitution.

None of those violate the Constitution.  Your lack of knowledge about the Constitution is quite telling, as well.

Gun control does not violate the Constitution, as long as people can own guns, which they most undoubtedely can.

A standing army is allowed, as long as they do not quarter in American civilian homes, which they don't.

The President has the right to 90 days of military action without Congressional approval. 


The post wasn't really anti-american, though I am very proud to be anti-american.. since american seems to be defined as a supporter of police state militarism.

Well, I'm not anti-France, although the French government seems to be devoted to going against America and protecting its own oil interests lately.  But if you feel the need to be anti-American, that's not my choice. 

America hasn't been the cleanest country, but neither has France, Germany, Russia, and any other major power.  In fact, compared to European nations, and Russia, China, etc.  we are relatively clean.  Stalin killed 30+ million people in Russia.  Hitler killed 12+ million in Germany.  France's actions in Africa have been less than pleasant.  China raped and pillaged Tibet.  Care to reevaluate your anti-Americanism?

And you obviously don't know enough about America to be taken seriously.

#114 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Languages - Parlo Italiano - What langauge should be the Official? » 2003-04-14 19:30:10

Oh no, Charno is anti-government too.  Well, let's see, why do we need an official language?  Why do we need an official currency?

The answer is quite simple.  If everyone speaks a different language, or pays in different money, nothing will happen societally, economically, or scientifically.  You don't have to ban other languages, but you should have a language that everyone should know. 

Remember the NASA mission that was lost due to different measurements?  Now, wouldn't it have been easier if there had been a single, official measurement system?

#116 Re: Not So Free Chat » $74 Billion - What would you do? » 2003-04-13 19:10:25

Personally, I would put $20 billion each towards fuel cells, the space elevator, and nuclear propulsion.  I would spend the rest on the OSP, mountain tracks, and Sea Launch tech.

#117 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The State, Anarchy, And The Frontier - An essay written by George Potter » 2003-04-13 18:21:40

However you damn please?  Murder? 

A state is necessary to enforce the order of society.  Even if the state is only a simple state as in early 1800s America, keeping order on the frontiers.  Any society without a semblance of a government is doomed to chaos.

#118 Re: Civilization and Culture » Fun and games - 3 hypothetical Martian settlements... » 2003-04-13 17:57:00

What I see as a major benefit of Mars Direct is that it will be an economic core-private companies will send missions around it, perhaps a consortium of companies (McDonald's, Radioshack, etc.) with people and products, to sell to the Martian market. 

The same market that the ISS provides the private sector now (or the hopeful fledgling companies) will be comparable to the market a Mars Direct base would provide private industry.

#119 Re: Planetary transportation » Routine launches to LMO - Volcano slope maglev launching ramps » 2003-04-13 17:51:54

Shaun, sorry if you missed it, but could you tell me if the orbits of the moons cross the equator at specific areas, or in random areas?

#120 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Martian Calender and Timekeeping » 2003-04-13 15:48:37

AJ...it was in response to the 10 day week question--why not just cut it in half...that was what I was getting at.

But I agree, a 7 day week is best, if only for symbolic reasons (and Earth synchronization).

#122 Re: Planetary transportation » Routine launches to LMO - Volcano slope maglev launching ramps » 2003-04-13 12:55:52

Do you know how thin the cable is?  It wouldn't do any damage if it were destroyed, even if it somehow came crashing down in one piece. 

Shaun, do the Martian Moons have a certain area in which they make their equatorial passes, or are the passes random?

#123 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Averting Deadly Conflict » 2003-04-12 20:20:19

Why does the government allow Sea Launch to operate?  Why does the government allow planes to fly? 

Technological exports are allowed, classified exports are not.

Why would/should the Pentagon allow low cost Earth to LEO launch systems to become available for purchase in the private sector?

They already are.

#124 Re: Interplanetary transportation » De-orbiting from LEO revisited - How to avoid highspeed re-entry » 2003-04-12 15:16:45

Well, if you used an NTR, the only expense would be more tankage, which is usually about 3% of the mass of your fuel.  Due to the mass ratio of NTRs, you can sacrifice a little mass and still get vastly more payload than a chemical system.

If it is launched via heavy lift booster, it could be a huge tank of fuel, so it could last several missions.  The payload gained by reducing the tile/heat shield would be worth the cost. And then there's the added safety.

#125 Re: Planetary transportation » Routine launches to LMO - Volcano slope maglev launching ramps » 2003-04-12 13:41:56

Yes, I made a mistake about geosynchronous orbit.  However, the chances of Phobos or Deimos ever coming near the elevator are extremely slim, and perhaps even impossible if the elevator is put in the right locations (for example, the equatorial crossovers may be limited to certain regions). 

Russian Roulette has risky odds-these aren't really that risky.

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