New Mars Forums

Trebuchet,

You don't understand the reasons behind warfare, with FTL Transportation nations would war for territory, resources and other reasons for conquest.

Showtime17

You have the right idea about the Galactic Governement for the Humans in space , It allows autonomy for single planets (nations) to manage their resources with a federal oversight government.  The galactic police / security group would continual need expansion as new territory be created. The explorer vessels would be part military / part civilian working in groups to meet the challenges on the frontier.

But We need to start from our existing political structures by using the United Nations and developing a model for continuing member states regional management of earth territory but the creation of a planetary government called United Earth Government it would be the start for the Terran Solar System Council then Terran System Government.

Many other forms of government could exist on Mars , from imperialism with a self-claimed royals (Princes / Kings ? Dukes ) to Corporate Governors that are controlled from a board of a corporation.

You need to remember that space doesn't stop people taking reseources and control over different cities / outposts / settlements / colonies by force of arms. It depends on the backup from earth or other nearby resources. What we bring to space including robotics could be used for war as well. The Justice , legal and legislative structures and the interaction with Earth all plays a part in the development and also the reduction of risks in the formation of goverment on Mars or any other body in our solar system.

I don't think Mars will have a single government. !!!!!

I think that Mars will have colonies from various nations from Earth.  each Nation will decide what governing authority for their colony, some will provide a governor like an external territory on earth, other will provide a self-governing structure and other will state major decision from earth command.

Eventually private concerns will also open their own colonies, this could have various management structure again. The corporate board structure could be used with a CEO managing operational affairs and board of directors managing the strategic future of the colony.

I think you need to be open to alot of different colonies on the surface of Mars, with USA, Russia, Europe, China, and Japan deciding to go to Mars and they all will eventually want colonies, before we look at commerical interests. Remember all parties ( including Nations will protect their interests or other interests that provide advantage to them)

Rxke,

Well, I see you can't read and understand because the answer has been given twice before on this topic about how the money can be generated and the maths behind the answer. Before I can provide the rest of the answer we need to have the solution infrastructure completed.

Again I told you and the other before and again you don't listen. The government budgets are not bottomless for scientific research into space and the public will eventually call for a halt into space because they won't see any earth based benefits.

You need to make plans for all possibilities including those possibilities that effect the movement for exploration (prospecting) and colonization / settlement in space.

The other part of your comments regarding Rupert --- If you mean Rupert Murdoch, Chairman of News Limited then I would love his resources to help meet our goals for the development of space, If you are talking about your cousin Rupert, then you can have him, and the comments about ISA ---- what is that ? don't know and Its not a factor in our objectives ---- But what about the Rockfellers or other resource rich families and indivdiuals of the world, they could also provide their fortunes into the long term ventures for humanity. Bigalow is using his personal fortune to expand into space with bigalow aerospace. I think its time the space community really asks and markets to the global rich community about the long term benefits for humanity and the possible asset rich resources in space.

Rxke,

I was talking about the size and complexity of the Internet ----- Example of a large customer base  ----- Not taken over the Internet Providers ------ ,, the NASDAQ every years processes hundreds of millions of transactions for over 100 million clients through their brokers again another Example -----  I am telling you how misinformed you are and providing some knowledge about the internet structure and size and the continuing growth of the net.

The Target Market currently is more than 1 Billion customer Blocks and growing daily by the time we can implement the solution the market size will be four or close to five times the current size.

Forecasted Customer Market structure:

1 Block usage  - 5% of market ( 30 million customers ) = 30 Million Blocks

10 Blocks average - 30% ( 18 million customers ) = 180 Million Blocks

25 Blocks average - 45% ( 10.8 Million customers ) = 270 Million Blocks

50 Blocks Average - 20 % (2.4 Million customers ) = 120 Million Blocks

Customer Base of approx = 61.2 million approximately across the whole world would provide the 600 Million customer blocks required to meet objectives or even less if the upper market is larger then forecasted. 

I know you are having a hard time understanding Basic Maths and Business Planning to comprehen yje creation of a new income source for space development and then implement the development of the infrastructure required to expand into space, including the infrastructure on earth.

Rxke, you need to open your eyes, because you didn't read and understand my previous statement. So I hope you understand this message outlines potential customer base and future grow.

Sdc2,

I understand, the public across the world doesn't understand why we are going to space and doesn't see a benefit for space development and exploration. We need to provide that across the whole space community on earth and make the public understand we are going to stay this time and build into space, if not then we will need the courage of private enterprise to take up the slack.

If you want to put your views directly to me just message me, I only respond as I am responded too, and I find that certain members you need to hold your ideals forcefully.  I hope you do get involved we need more to discuss this important issue.

GCNRevenger,

Well thank you for your ranting !!!!!, I will explain again to you, problems have solutions , so look at the issue to create a vast quantity of funds on a regular basis and you might come up with a similar answer ( 600 million customer blocks x $30.00 per month = $18 Billion per month over a year = $18B x 12 = $216 Billion with $86 Billion for operations and other earth based projects leaving $130 Billion for space per year ----- ALL PRIVATE ENTERPRISE   ) or it might explode your little mind trying because it outside the norms for your mind to function.  It was like a job I went for in a think-tank type working environment where you have to design processes for a software apps to test without have app specifications that interview lasted four interviewers for four hours and i was shortlisted, but sadly didn't get the job. You need to use the same grey matter y( your Brain) between your ears to think outside the norms when you are dealing with space, GCNRevenger.

I know exactly what happened with Apollo XIII with the fuel connection malfunction but what I was trying to illustrate that a focused laser would do the same slicing through the skin of the spacecraft and cutting the fuel containers and creating heat and combustion that could destroy the spacecraft, I was trying to explain a scenerio ----- about private ownership of moon property and the issues about all the nations going to the moon for national interests not sightseeing----- but again you didn't read back on previous messages within this topic, So I needed to explain to you again , to help you understand. 

Again you don't understand using private funds to go into space when on the surface you are spending billions to build into space without any upfront returns. You need to think again longer term and strategic in nature. Here we go strategy 101 - When you build all the infrastructure in space for other space fairing enterprises to come after you build the highways and the ability to become the backbone of the expansion until other enterprises enlarge in size to become more competitors then customers. It also means the capital returns will flow back over a number of decades and human generations.  I hope this doesn't hurt your mind to expand into these large and complex thoughts----- the of the word DYNASTY and you must get the strategy then not the quickfix methodology of the Western culture.

Know I have explain in brief again I will hope this is the completion of the Apollo XIII saga in your little mind.

GCNRevenger,

I think we are talking about to different levels of Budgets and the projects involved for the space infrastructure development from these budgets. I think you are talking about a NASA Style budget limited in many ways. Where We are talking about a budget of several times that per year in the order of US$130 billion with nearly 60% going to building infrastructure (includes vessel construction) per year. ( US$78-85 Billion)   

Dook,

I know you love star trek or you wouldn't keep referencing it, you must be a closet trekkie and only coming out on here.  When you are look to move large qualities of resources you need a building program like Boeing or Airbus for small, medium, large, and custom vessel construction. You need the mineral resources to build and mantain these vessels ans well provide the resources for rapid development on the surface bases.

Oooo, regarding the remote laser mobile platform then you should read up on solar cell array technologies , high energy storage capacitors and effective range (up to 1000 miles ) of lasers for heating up fuel tanks of spacecrafts or look at apollo 13 incident it doesn't need a massive laser to make conbustable elements react. Anyhow I was trying to illustrate that no nation would allow someone to stop them landing on the moon period.

You both are thing in the exploration frame of mind and not in the colonization frame of mind thus you stop short of the real objects of humanity. Because you only work with the limitation and not try to improve the limits to improve the solutions.

We need to gather resources from different location in our solar system to have the ability to expand into space in a meaningful way. We need materials / resources from the asteroid belt , the outer planets and moons to sustain the growth for humanity in space.  It doen't worry me or other that all the locations are not ideal but that the movement of resources can be achieved.

We need to build custom vessels for gathering these resources and ferrying them back to the surface bases, and orbital stations. As we develop newer technologies this will improve the movement of resources thus reduce the waste.  We also need larger and more complex explorer vessels that can stay out longer in deep space to explore the frontier, pushing our frontier further and further out.

I know that some or most of you have issues about the time or why  we need to go to the moon or why not start to mars but we need major space based infrastucture to keep supplying people in orbit, on mars and on the moon. We need to acknowledge the costs and fund the resources required  for our next step to humanity's future -----> Permanent presence in space for humanity.

Well,

I think you are both a bit conversative in your views (RobS, GCNRevenger), of course the moon and mars are not ideal locations for humanity but the vast amounts of resources required can be justified for the greater benefit of the human race.

Yes this undertaking will be the greatest undertaking of humanity since we moved across the world and created the cultures on our little planet. We need to have the same colonist spirit to move into space. We need to tie the exploration of a planet or moon to the settlement of that planet or moon. This means we go back to the lunar surface we are going to colonize the surface, because we shouldn't " PLAY ROCKETS " to the moon and not meet medium to long term objectives of colonization in space.

To seriously going to the Moon we need to have proper plan for use of the lunar surface before building and expanding across the surface. I can see the development of several multi-building settlements specific for different sciences and activities and a few large colonies on the moon. Then we are colonizing Moon we can use the surface in a productive manner that benefits the medium or long term objectives of humanity. ( Meaning - Multi-buildings upwards to 25-50 people and colonies of 100+ people on the surface. )

Then go out to the other planets beyond :

To seriously colonize Mars we need to have a several single building outposts , several multi-building settlements and a few large colonies on the planet. Then we are colonizing Mars. ( Meaning - Single buildings - 6 people, Multi-buildings upwards to 50-75 people and Colonies of 100+ people on the surface.  )

It doesn't look that NASA or any other space fairing nation has a comprehensive plan for moving into space.

The Question was Should we focus Human space society on exploration ? and the answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!! We need to focus on colonization because it changes the space vessel design, what next steps in the human movement into space but if we stay on exploration then we are just tourists in space picking up samples and returning home with our souvenirs and happy pics of our holiday on the moon or mars or beyond.

GCNRevenger,

You can stay with your little rockets ( like the falcons, atlas, delta and others ) to get low cost micro objects into orbit and when you look not at exploration and the issues of colonization of space then you will see that the movement in hundred million tonnes or more of cargo, personnel, and hardware offworld will not come from these current methods.  New Methods and processes are needed then we can achieve the desired goals / objectives of human colonization of space.

GCNRevenger, answer that question are you in for exploration or colonization of our solar system and why ? I see you as a explorationist not a colonist and thus will hold the human race back for expanding into space for another 100+ years .

GCNRevenger, I think you are mistaken because they have found, aluminium, iron, titanium, silica, and other minerals in quantities, and we haven't touched underneath the surface. The Moon will have materials different because of meteor impacts that will change the molecular bonds and can change the makeup of the rocks. The Initial lunar formation is similar with earth but it also have differences that will shape and change the minerals and rocks on the moon.

We will require supplies from earth for certain items that are not found on the moon but that will be the same for Mars and any other planet except a earth type planet. The creation of large scale vessels, mass production of short range vehicles, drop cargo vessels from planetary orbit and other specialist vessels for colonization will require a large external fabrication complex off-planet to build these components and store completed vessels.

We need a test location to build space components for outpost assembly for the Mars Surface and the only place to test the full scale fully functioning structure in an alien environment is on the moon. Because once we tested the structure we Pack-and-go to Mars with it and deploy on the surface.

I feel you are still in the explorer phase of space for humanity and still not wanting the human race to move off the planet.  You are not alone in these feelings GCNRevenger , I have seen it from other people thinking that in 5o years we are still going to have a small scientist team only on the moon and possible a small scientist team on Mars. We will never get off the planet in 100 + years with those feelings, but if in the next fifty years we have space stations, lunar base/s including mining and fabrication we will have a outpost on Mars or possibilty two or more then we will colonization before the end of 21st Century to other planetary bodies.