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But the payload capabilities are roughly similar?
Perhaps a regular ERV kept in mars orbit would do the trick?
How long does the ERV take to manufacture the necessary fuel? And how does this compare with DRM's MAV?
I think Mars Direct originally called for a 130 tonnes to LEO booster, the same as the Saturn V, and the same as Ares V. With a higher-thrust upper stage, Ares V looks just like the original Ares.
I'm not sure if that assumption is correct. What were the specifics of the original Ares, and how do they compare with Ares V?
This is covered in page 9 of The Case for Mars, btw. I'll explain the gist of it:
Once the Hab lands next to the first ERV, they are comitted to using this ERV. If the first ERV fails, then the next missions ERV is within 800km, so they can use that instead (forfeiting the next manned mission opportunity in the process).
So it is a contingency in case the first ERV fails after both the Hab and second ERV have landed (i.e. if it fails half way through the 1.5 year human habitation period).
Allowing the second mission to take place at an unlimited distance from the first eliminates this contingency. However, the book mentions that "if the worse came to worst [the second ERV also fails], the four could just tough it out on Mars until additional supplies and another ERV could be sent out [in the next window opportunity]"
So it can be seen that keeping follow-up missions close to the previous mission sites isn't absolutely necessary, but it would come at the cost of significantly less redundancy.
In my opinion, succeeding missions absolutely must be able to land wherever they want. So if you have any ideas to restore this sort of redundancy, let us here it.
We'll give you that last point!
The site reminds me of perhaps the single greatest flaw of Mars Direct, here given as an advantage:
The Mars Direct plans calls for landing sites about 300 kilometers apart...
I remember reading this in The Case for Mars. Not sure about that number though. Is this a real limitation or just a suggestion to improve redundancy?
Any recurring mission should be free to explore anywhere we want, and should not be limited to exploring swaths of land near previous landing sites.
How does DRM or Semi-Direct compare with MD on this issue?
How does DRM3 compare with Mars Semi-Direct in its original iteration?
Are there any projects in the works to take advantage of this inevitable heavy lift capability, besides the lunar missions?
Any 100 tonne space telescopes?
Any 100 tonne ISS modules?
Or how about some super-giant mars rovers?
Gee, this newfound heavy lift launch capability is really gonna embarrass NASA when it sheds light on all those wasted shuttle-flights that were just as expensive.
What would MarsDirect look like with two launches per vehicle; one for the vehicle and one for the final stage?
Let's try to compare apples with apples here. Whats the mass-per-man of MD vs DRM?
Replying to GCNR's post at the top: I think we have to accept now that any manned mars mission will come well after 2020, once the lunar program has ended. I think we should consider that a clean-sheet booster might be on the cards by then, or at least NASA might be willing to make a larger investment.
SpaceNut, I also wonder whether there is a size limit of a Mars lander. If there is, perhaps it is dictated by the maximum size of parachute, due to limits of materials. Also, I imagine the heat-shield will have to be bigger to protect a larger volume. Perhaps the RCS system plays a minor part too.
It would be good if there was a site that explained DRM3 in simple terms. Does Zubrin have a good defense agains DRM3?
Edit: Why don't we lay DRM3 on the table, and we can see if there are any improvements to be made here also (I've changed the topic heading to reflect this).
I also thought about increasing the Hab diameter from 10m to 12m. This would require 20% more sheet-metal, but add 45% more floor area. Seeing as we are using 10m diameter tanks on the Ares V, a 12m payload shroud should be more accomodatable. It'll probably end up looking like Zubrins original Ares with 8.4m tank and 10m shroud (from my understanding)...
Before someone else posts it first, I should also mention another thought I had: Collapsable crew quarters which fold up into the roof when more floor space is wanted. The crew area can be adjacent to the lounge to extend the living space.
FYI, I wrote all of the above before starting related discussion here at newmars. Most of the points are still valid IMO, so I decided to post it here.
You need to watch your fanatical side, GCNR. Over-generalizing the issue doesn't help.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that Mars Direct has a lot of room for improvement.
BTW, GCNR, I haven't really read your email yet. I should really do that... I'll do it now, k?
Here's some preliminary thoughts I've had about improving the Mars Direct mission architecture:
1. The capacity of the Ares V can be upgraded by developing 6-segment boosters, and extending the main tank. Once 5-segment boosters have been developed, the addition of another segment should be relatively cheaper. However, such a launch vehicle will be very heavy, and will strain the load capacity of the crawler transporter. The ground-pressure of a fully-laden crawler transporter may be lowered by widening the caterpillar-track segments, and adding a layer of shingle to the crawl-way, to better spread the load.
1b. Another alternative is to develop a much larger booster consisting of 3 Ares V cores side-by-side. This means the environmentally controversial SRB's are not required. Igniting all three tanks at once guarantees the reliability of each engine before takeoff. This means that the middle tank is relatively slow burning. Also, the SRB's, though reasonably safe by themselves, are detrimental in combination with the main tank as a combined system (i.e. Challenger), and under the increased load will require careful evaluation before man-rating. The two first stage main tanks may be kerosene powered if this is advantageous.
2. A more powerful booster should allow a Mars Direct style 4-crew hab and ERV to be thrown direct to Mars with more room for mass uncertainty. However, if such a booster is able, and the final mass requirement is low enough, it would be favorable to launch the hab into a parking earth orbit, where the crew can later board and perform pre-flight checks. However, doing it this way might allow too much fuel in the upper stage to boil off, in which case a purpose built upper stage may be required, further increasing cost. Ultimately, this will probably be decided upon once the mass uncertainty (both of the mars vehicle and the booster) is narrowed.
3. To speed development if necessary, the operational requirements of all systems can be down-graded by sending a crew of 3 on the first mission. This would also allow more supplies to be sent with the Hab: More spares, science equipment, and consumables. This will better accomodate for the contingency of ERV failure on the first mission.
4. From the outset, the martian explorers should be given as many tools as possible to perform a primarily geological science mission. This is to ensure a good science return, and to keep the astronauts stimulated with new discoveries. In order to achieve a leap in science return and mental stimulation, the astronauts should be able to explore as large of an environment as necessary, perhaps and likely larger than what even a large rover may provide. Therefore, the Hab should be able to achieve long-range mobility. This can be achieved without increasing its mass by sending the necessary modifying equipment on a seperate cargo vehicle. The astronauts will then be able to fit this equipment after they have completed the initial exploration of their immediate environment. This additional cargo vehicle may also allow the delivery to the surface of any non-essential equipment that might otherwise be sent with the Hab, like extra consumables, science equipment, tools, and spares.
5. Future launch windows should allow for the launch of double and triple missions. Sending multiple missions in parallel may add a little redundancy, both during interplanetary cruise and once on the surface. The possibility of crews voluntaring to stay for longer periods on the surface should also be allowed for. If two or more missions operate on the surface at the same time, then it is possible for crews to mix, thereby avoiding conflict if there is disagreement within crews.
6. Thorough pre-testing of equipment should be of high-priority. Hopefully, this will be easier as the Mars program will not be a race, and the final deadline won't be as 'hard' as it was during Apollo. The ~2 year launch window should assist, rather than interfere, with this.
As the Mars Direct plan doesn't require space-rendezvous, most pre-testing can be done on earths surface. However, all critical systems should be tested to operate smoothly in zero-g, in case of tether failure during inbound and outbound legs.
The completed ERV should be thoroughly pre-tested, from landing to takeoff, in a mars-proxy environment on earths surface.
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Thats it for now. Feel free to add comments or contribute your own ideas here.
It would if it could be built. But frankly Ares VII is too heavy to be transported on the crawler, and would require significant pad modifications over Ares V.
I think Mars Direct originally called for a 130 tonnes to LEO booster, the same as the Saturn V, and the same as Ares V. With a higher-thrust upper stage, Ares V looks just like the original Ares.
However, the question is then whether Zubrins mass estimates will work, and many think they won't.
Personally, I would prefer something in the 160 tonne range. But it looks as though Ares V might be the biggest you could get away with at KSC.
Why do you say only 0.05%? That seems pretty small. 2.5% failure rate would be about the same as the Shuttle, and they're still keen to put 7 eggs (no offence to the shuttle crew) in that basket.
Yeah, everyone keeps mentioning the problems with having 49 engines. But I'm not so sure... They will all be started at the same time, and checked for performance before lift-off.
When was the last time an RS-68 failed during ascent anyway?
Cool it worked. Thanks.
A day later and I still have to re-login everytime I close the web-page.
This is getting annoying.
It reminds me of the method icelanders use to remount the huge tires they have on their 4x4's when they come off the rims: They spray a little kerosene inside the tire cavity and drop in a match. The pressure causes the tire to expand and collapse back onto the rim.
Would the liquid fuel expand into gas before or after admission into the sub-chamber?
Do you mean adding and combusting a little bit of fuel and oxidizer in each little chamber to pressurize it? That would be sort of like turbocharging in car engine, except without the turbocharger. The fuel and oxidizer would have to be 'turbocharged' in seperate chambers to avoid blowing everything up, and many of these little chambers would be used sequentially to get a constant pressure feed to the main combustion chamber. That would be an excellent idea, so long as you could achieve the necessary flow rates.
Thanks SpaceNut. Tried it but it still doesn't remember. I'll keep trying and get back to you shortly (maybe if I reset the pc aswell...?)
No I haven't really looked at gaetanomarano's website (frankly it is a little hard to read). However, I think you both make the mistake of being overly-fanatic, albeit in opposite extemes.
You should know well what you don't know. And show clearly where you make assumptions.
The newmars.com login system hasn't worked since I downloaded some software to reset my broken Windows XP Firewall.
I've checked all the right cookie and security options but to no avail...
Any ideas?