Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations via email. Please see Recruiting Topic for additional information. Write newmarsmember[at_symbol]gmail.com.

#101 Re: Water on Mars » MARSIS is ready to work! » 2005-06-26 18:03:20

Cool. This could really advance our knowledge about the planet. Let's hope they find lots of water.

#102 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VII - The Seventh Seal? » 2005-06-26 17:49:47

Towns should probably try to look at whether there are other ways of revitalizing a community without taking people's land to bring in Wal-Mart.

#103 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Communism - Just like Star Trek » 2005-06-26 17:45:50

Really, what use is government, anyway?

To protect the rights of the people.

That I think is the only just function of a government, and unfortunately the need for a government of some sort to do this seems to be unavoidable at present. Certainly if we could all live happily and peacefully without any government I'd want to move away from government too.

This basic function of government is very open to interpretation. It can be considered to require anything from an ultra-libertarian, laissez-faire capitalist society to a planned economy police-state. I go for a democratic-republic with moderate restrictions on business and only really necessary ones on the individual and a government that enforces the necessary laws but refrains from making an overly complex or over-bearing code of law. Even this is, of course, very open to interpretation.

One thing that I think my interpretation of the role of government does unquestionably demand is a move away from the often religious inspired laws to protect the morals of the people and from laws that only protect people from their own idiocy. (This second one gets difficult in the realm of drugs which usually harm the user the most but often harm others to a lesser extent. For example I believe that laws to limit people's exposure to second-hand smoke in public places are justified.)

#104 Re: Unmanned probes » Sell Mars to the Public - PR needs more priority in site selection » 2005-06-25 18:05:48

The orbital probes have returned some good photos like what you suggest. I've seen a particularly good one of Mons Olympus for instance.

#105 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Communism - Just like Star Trek » 2005-06-25 18:02:20

The only reason why the Russia communism didn't work out was because they spent all of there resources on military technology and forgot about there citizens.

Also because they were totalitarian, stifled dissent and thus thought, and created a system where you often couldn't advance based on individual merit.

Fighting in a space ship is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea.

Fighting big wars is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea. Mutually Assured Destruction is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea. Blowing yourself up is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea. Fighting generally is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea, except when it's unavoidable self-defense. All this doesn't really deter people.

#106 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Succession of Empires - Mars will trump the U.S. » 2005-06-25 13:16:17

Mars will not have such technological institutions and monopolies to deal with. New ideas will have free reign to be explored and developed.

I hope that's what happens. But it's certainly not the only possibility. We need to make sure that Mars is free, not crippled by too close ties to Earth.

Hopefully, the Chinese will soon become a large enough threat to our supremacy in space that we will once again get off our asses and do something rather than just talk about it.

Provided that something is do more space exploration, not declare war.

#107 Re: Terraformation » energy on mars (electricity, motors, etc) - types of energy to use on Mars » 2005-06-25 13:09:10

There are alot of asteroid between Mars and Jupiter. Maybe one of them have the elementals we need. Like Carbon,Iron or Antimatter (would be a dream if we could find a natural source of it)

Carbon and Iron are both plentiful in the asteroids. However, they are also both plentiful on Mars so there's little reason to go to the asteroids for them. The main reason to mine the asteroids is for rarer metals, especially PGMs. Antimatter you almost certainly won't find in the asteroids or anywhere else in the solar system. (Well technically virtual anti-particles are created all the time around us, but they're instantly destroyed again and are of little use at the moment.) If there was any anti-matter in the solar system (highly unlikely to begin with) it would have been destroyed long ago by collision with matter. Consider that most asteroids are themselves cratered; they hit each other from time to time. Even a matter micrometeorite colliding with an antimatter one would produce enough force to blow the whole thing apart.

#108 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VII - The Seventh Seal? » 2005-06-25 12:44:57

I doubt the reporters will be invited to wander about the base and prison as they like. They'll be on a guided tour showing them what the military has decided is safe for them to see. Thus the allegations will not be confirmed or denied. Bush will say I showed you, we have nothing to hide. His opponents will point out that something could be hiding in what wasn't shown. If someone asks to see something they haven't been shown, they'll be told that would compromise national security. If Bush is finally allowing more media access to the place that's good, but I doubt he's going to suddenly become a big fan of open government.

#109 Re: Interplanetary transportation » (Yablam Idea) + (Magnetic Catapult) at 85km high » 2005-06-24 16:07:41

a_centr=omega^2*r

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought centripetal acceleration was omega^2/r. Or v^2/r as my book says where v is velocity of the object in question (just a different variable, same thing I think).

#110 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VII - The Seventh Seal? » 2005-06-24 15:57:33

Does this make America a state sponser of terror?

Depends how you want to interpret it. Realistically, though, there was no intention of aiding terror so the answer should be no. Rather, the CIA acted stupidly resulting in making things worse. We don't accuse generals who order a poorly timed attack of treason, but we do releive them of their duties. The same attitude should probably apply here.

It also sounds as if the CIA may have acted illegally. This should of course be investigated, and appropriate action should be taken.

Really, though, if we want to beat the terrorists, we have to do better than this.

#111 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-23 11:16:47

Buying all of Mars would be like buying all of Earth, or at least all the public property. Theoretically possible, as long as people are willing to sell, but ridiculously impossible. No one can buy any land on Mars until there are governments set up to control it. Someone could plant a flag and say my gov controls Mars and I own it all. But for that gov to be legitimate it must actually exert control over all of Mars, govern the people there, be accepted by them, and address local problems all over the planet. Otherwise people will just settle. Realistically you'll have to deal with multiple governments, and with each individual property owner in each settlement, who may or may not want to sell.

Or think of it this way. If you buy all of Mars, you have to send people there to keep out tresspassers. And they need land to live on.

I think a claim system should be established for Mars limiting how much land an individual or a settlement can control. Each settlement increases the amount of the land that is controlled by regular private property laws. All the rest is noone's until someone starts living there.

#112 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-23 10:55:01

Word of this was just relayed to me.

Quote
By a 5-4 vote, the high court upheld a ruling that New London, Connecticut, can seize the homes and businesses owned by seven families for a development project that will complement a nearby research facility by the Pfizer Inc. drug company.


WTF?

Quote
The residents opposed the plans to raze their homes and businesses to clear the way for a riverfront hotel, health club and offices. They argued that it amounted to an unconstitutional taking of their property.

(Supreme Court Justice) Stevens said the proposal by the families that the court adopt a bright-line rule that economic development does not qualify as a public use is supported by neither precedent nor logic.


Previous statements against armed uprising may have been premature.

:angry:

Use of land by a private company has never seemed to me the intention of eminent domain. I would even consider that we should pass an amendment clarifying that land may only be taken for public use. Taking land from one private owner and giving it to another should not be the right of the government. It is also a violation of capitalist principles since the gov. is favoring one company rather than letting them compete freely. This is especially true when land is taken from one company and given to another with the lame excuse that the new one will create more jobs.

Locke wrote "life, liberty, and property;" but Jefferson changed it to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I like the pursuit of happiness, but the omission of property is coming back to bite us.

#113 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-23 10:45:46

Cobra Commander, you're comparing true Conservatism with actual Liberalism. You should compare either both in their "true" forms or both in their actual forms. True conservatism, I would say, is about keeping things as they are, especially where they work fine, and being skeptical of hasty change. True liberalism is about advancing and beleiving that we can always make things better than they are now. Both have good points, and either philosophy taken alone fails utterly. You need a balance of each, although in my view a bit more of liberalism. This way you move forward, but you're careful not to really screw things up in the process. Groups in modern politics that call themselves "liberal" or "conservatives" both make some good points and have some good people but are represented by disproportionate numbers of nutcases. I'm sure most of the individuals are more or less normal, decent people, the crazy ones make the biggest stories and they're always the ones that the other side points to. Also it should be noted that while political philosophies can have liberal and conservative elements, basic Liberalism or Conservatism are not political philosophies like Nazism, Communism, Fascism, or for that matter Democrat or Republican.

#114 Re: Interplanetary transportation » (Yablam Idea) + (Magnetic Catapult) at 85km high » 2005-06-22 16:05:01

A circular track to get you up to orbital velocity? A novel idea, but you run into the problem of having to keep a multi-tonne ship traveling tens of thousands of kilometers an hour from touch the side of the track due to centrifugal force, which would prevent magnetic levitation. The force on the payload (like the crew...) would be extreme if the track is anything less than an insane size. It would be easier just to build the linear one.

I found a formula for centripetal force: F=(mv^2)/r where F=force, m=mass, v=velocity, and r=radius, and I did some calculations with it. You're right that it would be way too much force for orbital velocity at any sort of practical radius. For supersonic speeds needed for a ramjet or scramjet though it might work. I'm not entirely sure what speeds you need for these, but I calculated that for a 100kg passenger to survive (survivable force limit is 1.2x10^5N) going around a circle at the speed of sound (using 331m/s, the speed in air at 0C) the circle must have a radius of at least 91.3m. Obviously you want the guy to not only survive but be reasonably comfortable, you want to accomodate passengers heavier than 100kg, and you want, at least for a scramjet, to accelerate to faster than the speed of sound. I am not really sure what numbers to use here, but I would imagine that with a track radius of not more than a few kilometers it could be done.

Trip time up a space elevator cable is not the problem so long as you can have two elevator car rails operating simultainiously up and down. The weight of a maglev rail up its length would be very prohibitive, it has enough trouble just supporting its own weight of a 36,000km cable.

You're probably right about the weight, certainly for the first elevators; who knows what tech we'll develop in the future. I'm not sure if this is just another ill-thought-out idea, but I was thinking that you could have a loop cable with several cars along it that is simply moved by a pulley-type mechanism at the base and/or at the top. The cars don't move and don't need any fuel. Instead the whole cable is moved and power can be generated on the ground or by space-based solar arrays. Cons are that all parts of the cable would have to be strong enough to take the strain of the hardest parts and that the system could be wearing on the cable. However, all parts of the cable will at tiimes be conveniently down on Earth for inspection and repair.

#115 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-21 15:58:21

Knowingly engaging in a war on false pretense and lying to the public is pretty good ground if ever there was one.

The war itself was legally justified, and the lying to the public is an interpretation based more on politics than on fact. Maybe it was the case, maybe not. But what the Lefties has is nothing. Like trying to convict someone for murder on the sole grounds that they denied it.

French kickbacks with "Oil for Food" are documented, though not totally ironclad proven to my knowledge.

So there is little evidence for Bush's lying and good evidence for a French Oil for Food scandal. I would be inclined to argue the opposite, although in truth I haven't really followed the Oil for Food story so am not really qualified to judge its validity. I simply can't say I've seen any proof, mostly just right-wing anti-France propaganda. Maybe there's some truth to the story, though, I don't really know. But on Bush's lying I believe there is very strong evidence. The British memo is just the latest document to point to a policy of adjusting the facts to justify invasion and trying to silence dissenting voices. If you say that the French connection to the Oil for Food scandal should be investigated, I certainly agree. So should other connections including any to American companies. However, I think there is enough evidence that the Bush administration lied about Iraq that we should take this accusation very seriously and investigate it thoroughly. And stop just saying "You did, did not, did too, etc."

Each side points to the scandals of its opponents and minimizes its own. This is a poor recipe for improvement.

#116 Re: Interplanetary transportation » (Yablam Idea) + (Magnetic Catapult) at 85km high » 2005-06-19 13:29:40

Sorry, I thought you were talking about a first stage that flew. What you're actually talking about makes sense, though. I'm not sure that the sled would be necessary, but I doubt it would hurt much. Probably either way could work fiine.

#117 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-19 13:20:39

Although some tax increases are probably inevitable, the most important thing in dealing with the national debt is to cut spending to within our means. The problem is that politicians are unlikely to cut spending even if they promise in their campaigns to do so. Once someone has access to the power and money of the government, they don't want to just let it sit there. They want, often from altruistic purposes, to use that money for programs that they beleive are necessary. I think that if most people had the ability, they would like to institute programs to make the country a better place. I know I would. Thus each politician has his or her goals, which to him or her are absolutely necessary and worthy of spending government money on. Other things are of course less important, and we can make the cuts there. But there are other politicians and citizen groups who want the cuts anywhere but there. Thus it's a hard fight to cut something, and it always brings enemies. Adding new programs is easier and more rewarding. What politician wants his/her term marked by fighting various programs that are beneficial to someone or by trying to do less. Everyone wants to be able to point to some accomplishments in which he/she has given something beneficial to the people of the nation. There is essentially a natural law of politics which states that spending will increase. This is something that is very hard to reverse.

#118 Re: Not So Free Chat » Which is Right? » 2005-06-19 13:03:10

One of the most powerful types of might is influence, since it gives one access to the might and resources of many people who will follow an influential leader and which are much greater than the might or resources of any one alone. Influence is often gained by persuading others that you are right and that if they follow you they too will be right. To a very large extent this is how religious leaders gain influence, and to a fairly large extent it is how political leaders gain influence as well. To be fair of course, influence is also gained by showing that you have the power to crush your enemies and advance your supporters, but there is at the least usually a pretext of morality and often a good deal of the real thing although it is sometimes misguided.

#119 Re: Interplanetary transportation » (Yablam Idea) + (Magnetic Catapult) at 85km high » 2005-06-19 12:48:18

Why do you need a first stage for launching? You could just make the  space plane a one-stage vehicle with both the scramjet engine and the equipment to use the railgun/magnetic catapult launcher. It would probably add a little weight, but the gear for attaching to and separating from a second stage adds weight and, more importantly, complexity. A single stage vehicle would be fully reusable, able to be quickly prepared for relaunching, and would eliminate the problem of landing and recovering an unmanned stage.

Going all the way to orbital at ground level will not work anyway, because of air friction. 2-3km/sec would already be a big help, but maybe air friction is too much even for that speed.

You don't need to go orbital speed at ground level, hence the scramjet. You just need to get up to high supersonic speeds at which the scramjet will work well. A difficult and expensive, but theoretically possible way to deal with air friction would be to accelerate along a completely enclosed track kept under very low, near vacuum pressure.

#120 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » NIF: $2.8 billion down the drain?? » 2005-06-18 18:38:15

Although I oppose canceling it at this stage, I'm not sure what the use of simulating the effects of an H-bomb are. Don't we already know what they do? (i.e. make a really big explosion, the exact force of which can be calculated fairly easily mathematically)  Besides I hope we're not going to use any nukes anytime soon. I see more promise for this experiment in developing laser fusion for power production or space propulsion. By the way is NASA or DOA paying for this project?

Ummm... the NIF wouldn't be too useful as a weapon system. It is comprised of a sphere of 192 smaller lasers, none of which are very good at blowing things up, and since they are aimed at eachother you can't exactly shoot stuff down with it.

Once you have the technology for this sort of laser fusion, I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to change it from a sphere to a dish shape in which all the lasers are aimed at a point some distance away, sort of death star style. Of course it could be quite difficult to get it to be powerful at large distances such as on the Earth's surface when fired from orbit.

#121 Re: Interplanetary transportation » (Yablam Idea) + (Magnetic Catapult) at 85km high » 2005-06-18 18:06:05

A maglev/railgun type system might work well combined with a carbon-nanotube cable space elevator and could be used to move cars up the cable all the way to geosynchronous earth orbit. It would be much faster than a climber that gripped the cable and would also have no friction with the cable. Of course building this long a cable and putting super-conductors or coils all along its length might be much more harder, expensive, and generally futuristic than the magnetic catapult with scramjet approach. I would consider both worthy projects with much more payoff likely than anything from the vehicles they're designing now (CEV, klipper, etc.).

No, I still think that a spaceplane that launches from a conventional runway is better then a magnetic catapult

I thought you made a very good case for the catapult. What advantage would a runway have? Your statements about the need to get a scramjet up to speed seem to imply that the catapult would be the best option.

You are looking at a track about 1500km long for a nice, gentle 2G acceleration all the way up to orbital velocity.

A track this long would not actually have to be built in order to accelerate the payload to the appropriate velocity. Rather a circular track could be used with the payload running around it many times before being sent off on a steeply upward slanting side track to launch it. This would be a kind of macro-scale version of what is done in particle accelerators to accelerate particles, although the velocities achievable would of course be much less.

#122 Re: Not So Free Chat » U.S. Culture - ...where's it going? » 2005-06-15 16:01:02

People tend to begin caring much more about what politicians are doing when the economy starts collapsing.

An interesting thing to note given how much we hear about morality and the like in modern politics. It's not when we do something "evil" that people really start acting to make things better. It's when they have less money than they used to.

To be fair, plenty of people do speak up about things they believe to be morally wrong. It's just that a bad economy seems to get more complaints and action from the populace than something like an unjust war (or an imminent threat from Iraq if you take the prowar viewpoint) that doesn't affect them directly.

#123 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri VI - (We crashed the last one) » 2005-06-15 15:24:51

"a noble lie"

Should we fake a moon landing?

#124 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What kind of social system will be on Mars » 2005-06-14 18:31:32

Mars will probably have a number of small city states limited in size by the amount of land that you can easily make habitable. They will be linked loosely or not at all. Naturally different states will attract different sorts of people. You will have capitalist, socialist, and communists economies and Republican, True Democratic, Totalitarian, Fundamentalist, Aristocratic, and other government types. Probably Republican or Democratic Capitalist or Semi-Socialist states will predominate since they are the most conducive to advancement and success and are also what Americans and Europeans who would probably do the most colonizing, are most likely to establish. I would like to see the development of more direct Democracy on Mars, which may be possible in small city-states with advanced electronic voting.

Mars could become just another sandy desert that would be better off without imposed dictators or democracy.

You mean Mars will be the next Middle East. Hey Bush, go there to spread Democracy. I bet they have oil too.

Fortunately zero-point energy propulsion has come a long way

I didn't think anyone had yet found a way to generate power from zpe never mind use it for propulsion. And how much is there anyway? The 120 orders of magnitude difference between observed and theoretical values still hasn't been figured out, to the best of my knowledge.

or had you not noticed the kewl neutrinos captured and confined in superconductor shell concept

Never heard of it. How is it supposed to work?

#125 Re: Not So Free Chat » U.S. Culture - ...where's it going? » 2005-06-14 18:08:39

I'm not sure what the standard of evidence for proving that a crime was motivated by hate against a specific group is. A reasonable solution might be to require a demonstrated history of action against said group particularly in the form of previous crimes. However, on the whole issue of whether motive should matter n sentencing, I am still somewhat divided.

Another problem in this culture of ours, punishing every crime with prison. In most cases it isn't the most appropriate answer.

I tend to agree with this, although I'm not sure if I'm thinking of it the same way you are. Are you suggesting more harsh, one might say "barbaric", punishments such as death, beating, torture, etc.; more rehabilitation programs especially for drug offenders; or programs that give something back to society or the government to help make up for what the criminal took such as fines, community service, forced labor, or having to repay plus some the value of stolen or destroyed property. I like the last two options but not the first.

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB