New Mars Forums

GCNR,

I have !!!!!!!!

At least I am working on a overall strategy for colonization program,  NASA and other government programs are explorer "tourist" based programs that won't go anywhere in the future.

I am listing business types required to provide the necessary resources from earth to meet the overall space program strategy. (such as Petrochemicals, specialized metal refiners, and small custom electronic manufacturers just to name a few) Other products provide the income base to purchase wholesale resources and services at cost from internal businesses reducing the cost on earth based infrastructure ( vertical and horizontal business integration for our space enterprises) - In other words --- Build a corporation for the sole purpose is to fund space programs through other business activities.

I don't think you have been looking at a space colonization program that provides the ability to move towards settlements not just explorer / tourist missions to the moon and mars.

Martian Republic ,

I wasn't talking about buying from Bigelow Aerospace I was saying that bigelow model was excellent for Private Business interests to expand into space. ( I am not talking about Public Corporations on the sharemarket)  By using there Earth Based income=producing assets to create the wealth for the develop and eventual expansion into space.

I am talking the development of space as another commerical long term business venture with the creation of business markets and the development of settlements with similar commerical markets like on earth. If the governments on earth can't decide to work together to expand humanity into space then the business sector can and should go there create the marketplaces for resources from water to energy to raw construction materials including food and the governments would need to purchase from the corporation/s or build there own at a large cost to themselves.

Businesses as designed for profit and yes, this would be a profitable venture (in the long term) in many aspects including ownership of the resources and the rights for building the settlements and not let ineffective governments make decisions.

By the way ---- the Corporation is not a signature to any of the space treaties including the moon treaty and outer space treaty. So , it doesn't matter the corporation will own its rights and resources.

We need to move forward towards permanent space outposts not tourist landings on the Moon and Mars and work through the many complex issues and build solutions because all questions have answers ---- It might be that you don't like the answer but its there.

The only one alternative space development corporation that doesn't rely on the government handouts is Bigelow Aerospace, they work on the money of the owner of the company.

We need more companies like this where they develop funds from other business activities and channel funds into space research, developments and operations. With this model for private enterprise then we only have a matter of time to build the necessary infrastructure to expand into space.

Buidling a consortium of private enterprenuers would increase the opportunities in space without the use or desire to use the government controlled assets. (example 50 corporations x US$ 25 million per year from business activities = US$ 1.25 Billion per year into a non-profit foundation on space development and the shareholder meeting are the fifity private investors. ) This would focus on space and strategic moves not grand publicity moves.  But the consortium can take a view not to work with any government backed agency from any country.  The other major player in the space race.

I think you don't see the ability of private alternative space entreprenuers compared to government-backed agancies.

Yes, Large scale movement of cargo and humans to mars will cost alot of money depending on the design of the vessels, the cargo to the martian surface and transport of humans to the surface. 

But, before we leave earth orbit we need large scale infrastructure for the development of the cargo vessels and also the human transport ship for the missions. We are not developing down a settlement model we are travelling down an explorer / visitor / tourist model that means we take little and fly-in and then leave.

We need to build the larger vessels and use them in the expansion of the moon to test the use of them and test the onboard systems and transportation systems and return systems before we leave the lunar-earth space zone. Again It costs money that most government and corporate haven't got individually but combined could do with various space laws including property / mining laws be setup for the benefit for expansion into space until then we will have the tourist missions and nothing else.

GCNR,

Will go on about that a star trek or star wars or buck rogers or some other sci-fi ideas but it isn't everyone in the industry wants to go into space but under the current treaties the property / mining rights are not prohibited thus we need to bring everything from earth including the outpost / settlement components.

On earth we have started large scale mining operations on project finance in the 10-50B mark the development of space mining could be into the hundreds of billions in project finance but the returns would be in the trillions of dollars for the future viability of the settlements on Mars, and the outer planets and manufacturing stations.

We need a pro movement on the property rights including mining rights and a taxation framework for each planetary body setup for the expansion of settlements for these planetary bodies or we will never become a spacefaring race with permanent presence in this star system and beyond.

GCNR, Mr Money Bags !!!!!!!!

If we don't recycle and build vessels including drone / automated vehicles with recycled or reused components from previous launches then it will cost more money and resources then any one country has to offer and could afford. The first spacefaring nation or organization that develops their space program on a large recycle program will win the space race even on a smaller budget.

So, Mr Money Bags, If you want to get charged for parts that can be reused including the engines particular they could be reused in space then we should look at those proposals. Also we have the technology ( both Hardware and software ) to launch and build a moonbase or marsbase with automated vehicles using gaming methodology and rule based logic systems. I think you don't see all the advances in technology at the hardware and software platforms that could be adapted to the space environment and function nicely.

I do think we could use automated systems to setup a small outpost landing for humans to arrive on Mars and could have the gardens and other systems running before any humans have landed and when the humans land the environment is set for life. So , think before you type, Mr Money Bags. (AKA GCNRevenger)

I think you all are getting away from the decision on this subject !!!!!!!

First and formost the world currencies are not going to be used outside the world going into outer space for humanity,  because they don't right systems like the federal reserve banking system and currency exchange systems like here on earth. However we need to develop systems to replace those for the expansion into space and interaction with earth systems and we need to implement them in a controlled environment, before we try and implements these systems in space going to mars.

We could also integrate alot of the individual space projects from various research and science institutes, agencies, universities and colleges globally and bring them together into a spaceport operations for existing space programs including launching rockets. It doesn't mean the use of the existing launching facilities but new greenfield site or remodelling an aging site moving from government to private sector.

We need to bring all our technology together for a practical test of the systems, environments and management processes for a full field testing to see if they would work and what doesn't in a " real world " situation.

I am not talking about communism / capitalism, or alternative banking systems fopr governments but a hybrid systems similar to the barter systems used around the world for trading in various countries and with B2B Transactions without the use of currency. ( Money --- Dollars ) I am not against Salaries or Personnel or Engineers or anyone else, but the development of a more efficent enivonrment to expand into space for the next leap for humanity because we have used the same facilities for nearly 50 years .

I hope this clearifies the decision on this subject.  :?

Austin Stanley,

I am talking about a hybrid environment with components of a commune style environment and elements from a military style environment. A settlement in space will have some military style controls and procedures and some communal living elements that will sustain the settlement. We need to test, both the operational aspects for a settlement in space and the social aspects for these enironments.

Example - your issue of large salaries , I didn't say to cut salaries I said to cut the funds relating to paid expenses by the space center and private a credit based internal purchasing system.

We need to look at all the indivdual projects for terraforming and space living environments and create the next generation spaceport complex on earth.

Austin Stanley,

What waffle !!!!!!!, What I am suggesting is an alternative in spaceport management from a loose assembly of different organizations, personnel, and facilities to building an integrated approach right down to managing personnel living environment -- based on a settlement approach in space thus reducing the overall cost of the operations to a minimum without compromising quality standards in both living standards and operational standards.

At the same time use it as a providing ground for technology for space settlements including communications , integrated settlement software applications, integrated computing systems and living environment systems.

We need to change the way we conduct all facets of human space develeopment and Operations. In space - we managed all aspects of their life from living enironment, food, and activities while orbiting earth or travelling to the Moon or Mars.

We to look at the costs involved and ways to reduce the cost including using space methods on earth such as - large moon colony or mars settlement based living environments include food processing , health facilities and even clothing while on the campus / complex. Because the economies of scale can reduce the costs for individuals ( up to 40% ) we could reduce the salaries for employees within the settlement ( with overall savings of 10-20% settlement wide compared with individual costs and the savings could be used to advance space activities.)

This will provide a focused workforce for the development of space in an environment providing the focus for all employees on their individual and group tasks for the future expansion of space for humanity.  Also it would be the first large scale pilot base / settlement and would provide the additional research data on human interaction for employees in this working / sleeping / and living environment.

GCNR,

Better explanation for you :

Falcon 9-S9 has a LEO Cargo Weight of 24 tonnes and a Fairing Diameter of 5.2M equivalent to the new CEV and CLV vehicles under development. The Fairing Size is about 15-18M Long.

Designing modules that linkup in space to operate as a first and second stage of a lunar vehicle you could have 2x24 tonnes boosters ( Image 3 - equal to the Second Stage of the CEV) that would get the third module (lunar Lander ) and Fourth Module of Crew Command Vehicle for return voyage based on the same CEV Developments but the Costs for Falcon 9 Rockets could be reached by any OECD Country or a consortium of Business or Entreprenuers in one country or across the world.

Because these modules are pre-fabricated on earth they only need linkup in orbit and doesn't needthe use of the space station. We coould use the same design for cargo runs to the lunar surface or to Mars depends on the number of modules required and the speed you want to transfer the cargo to Mars and the weight of the cargo for the Mars or Lunar surface.  The Ariane 5 Launch vehicle could be used as well for missions towards the moon and mars.

Let the Launch vehicle companies create and maintain the launch vehicles, thus provides the means for a smaller group ( company or government agency ) to focus on the cargo modules for space launch in LEO not on earth and achieve a better response at a lower cost per launch for the Moon or Mars.

Education Institution

What I was trying to say , Is the development of a specific educational institution development for the sole purpose of education , skilling and provide world class experience in the development, management and operating space activities at a private or government spaceports would be better than a degree here or there in a standard university focusing on more and more different fields / faculties that buy for the resources of those institutions , private enterprises and governments.

And If , China development this type of institution first , for the long development and occupation of space then the rest of the world would need to follow to bring there individual programs into a specific focused and funded educational programs for the advancement of space.

Chinese are long term developers

The Chinese are long term players in their history and in the past they have absorbed technologies when we have worked out the bugs for example smartcards -  they are building a smartcard based banking system to replace their old system we had to develop that system they are just coming along after the development , testing and implementation issues are solved and having less time to install. The same will happen with there space industry currently China has 14 million enginners and they are growing and that means they could expand there heavy machine based industries rapidly. That is why Airbus Areospace is building a Airplane assembly factory in China and working with the local industry to expand the resources in China for the benefit of both sides.

At this time the chinese are not up with the Americans within the space industry but they could close the distance rapidly with the trade surplus and growth in the industrial sector of the economy and they are learning off the mistakes of the rest of the world how to do things better.

GCNR,

I see you are still blind and need a seeing eye dog. Well, just like bigalow launching his inflatable hub for orbit he is launching a prototype for testing purposes. In order to assembly a vehicle in orbit you need a vehicle assembly process and facilities in orbit to assembly the pre-made components come together.

What facility ???? One answer is designing and placing in orbit a automated / telerobotic assembly point for modular launch vehicles in orbit or Second answer is you could launch a series of cargo launches in orbit and bring all the components together with a team for on-site assembly then bring the mission crew up last and the assembly crew go back to earth or combination of both. It depends on a single or limited voyage vs large scale continuous missions to moon and beyond.

That shows to me that you don't have confidence in your co-worker abilities and your abilities and work practices set for these industries and that's sad. I am not looking for people that see it as a job / career or good thing on a resume or a place to increase their ego but I am looking for the skilled passion seekers for space that see it as a calling to explore. ( I don't see you in that group for your negativity GCNR)

If you are going into space for money it won't be there at the start or there in the first fifty years and it will take time to expand a interplanetary economy and individual colony economies. You need to believe that humanities place is in the stars and not just on earth, and that belief will carry the humans forward into space and expand our understanding and grow our society.

If any country goes into space for other reasons then they are going for the wrong reason and shouldn't go,  because you need to do large scale long term investment to create a viable human society in space in our solar system and then beyond.

The Modular Approach , I am talking about is using the size of the cargo space on existing launch vehicle you could construct a launch platform for earth orbit to lunar surface without the use of a large launch vehicle from earth. ]

Using the CEV Design you could use Two second stage module or similar is size and design to launch from earth to the moon and return from the moon. The Third module would hold the lunar landing craft and the fourth module would be the crew module for the voyage there and back.

You need to look at lower cost alternatives for the Business community to fund expansion into space. and get to the lunar surface for mining and refining resources on the surface.