New Mars Forums

*Clark, I think families of the deceased may take objection to the notion of no rights for the dead.  If there is a standard, agreed-upon method (whatever that would be) for dealing with corpses on Mars, chances are slimmer that someone will "raise the roof" with regards to the fate of a loved one's corpse.  If there is not a prescribed, majority-agreed-upon method for dealing with corpses, the matter may naturally fall into the hands of the next of kin or appointed friend to make the final decision.

This brings up another, related issue:  What about the right to die?  What if an early settler on Mars becomes terminally ill, is terribly injured on Mars, or is so homesick for Earth with no chance of returning (for example, he or she has lived on Mars for 10 years and a return to Earth gravity would be impossible), that he or she decides they'd rather die now?  The right to die is very complicated and volatile issue here on Earth...it may necessarily be a less complex issue on Mars. 

I don't mean to get the cart ahead of the horse, but I think these are issues which should be addressed.

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

*Yes.  My one desire as a kid was to be a professional astronomer.  When I was around 9, I found a book in Ben Franklin 5-10 store called "A Golden Guide:  Stars."  I wringed my mother's arm to buy it for me; she did.  I read and re-read that book for years, until the covers came off and the binding started coming loose -- not out of abuse, just out of sheer enjoyment of reading it; my favorite rainy-day book.  The local public library had scant astronomy books.  By the time I was 13, I was a regular subscriber to the magazine "Sky & Telescope."  As for my beloved "Golden Guide" book on astronomy, it got lost somehow in my late teens; the last time I saw it was in my childhood home, bound with rubber bands to keep the pages all together.  I tried for years to relocate it; not out of gaining any new information from it, but for sentimental reasons.  I never found it again.  Just last year I did find the new and revised version of the same book at a local bookstore; I bought it, and was happy to see the old familiar color illustrations, photos, drawings of graphs and charts, etc. as the first one I'd had...not that much different, just updated.  The most endearing feature of the book, IMO, is the uniqueness of the color illustrations (painted); it's not just photos.  It has a style all its own, and I'd recommend any parent buy it for a child with an interest in astronomy.  With this little book I taught myself the constellations; the Big Dipper in Ursa Major is used as a "key" for locating other constellations, and then you go from those constellations to identifying others.

Unfortunately, I don't have a head for higher mathematics and physics, so there went my plans to be a professional astronomer.

I've had a telescope for 20 years now; an Astroscan 2001 by Edmund Scientific; a 4.5 inch reflector.  I plan to purchase an 8-inch Dobsonian reflector in the near future. 

I live in a city of roughly 110,000 population...I understand the issue of light pollution.  My husband and I get out into the country to star gaze and use my telescope in the winter; at other times during the year I use my telescope in the most light-shaded part of our large lawn.  We reside in the desert SW of the USA, and I don't care to go outside city limits in the summer at night to star gaze or use the telescope on the roadside; we've got 5 types of rattlesnakes in this area, along with scorpions. 

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

In considering possible Marsian politics, I'd like to recommend the following as food for thought (John Locke was an Englishman who died in 1704): 

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/constitu … e-bio.html

--Cindy

P.S.:  While Mr. Locke espoused the right of property, I would prefer to see a Marsian society based on a commune system.  Other than that, I agree with him.

MS member since 6/01

Shaun writes:  "If we do ever (re)create an Oceanus Borealis, and if it's salty, I can't see any reason in principle why we shouldn't be able to introduce Terran sea-creatures. But the ecology of Earth's oceans is complex and one creature depends on another which depends on another etc. I suppose marine zoologists would have to start with the lowest members of the food-chain first and then gradually introduce other species at the appropriate times.

Then there's the problem of numbers. There is, for instance, a minimum number of, say, blue whales in Earth's oceans, below which they won't find each other often enough to breed successfully! So you probably couldn't drop a few whales into your brand new Martian ocean and expect them to carry on from there. It would take a lot of planning by very smart people to make the whole thing work, and I wouldn't be surprised if they made quite a few false starts before getting it right."

*Hi Shaun!  Yes.  A great amount of time with very meticulous planning will have to be involved.  I'm thinking it'll require generations of mankind on Mars before the more-than-rudimentary lifeforms "take" in the Marsian water environment.  I'm wondering if possible natural mutations (even if very SLIGHT mutations) in the "lower" species during the interim of trying to introduce higher and more complex species will cause additional challenges as well.  It would be very interesting to see how this project would progress and develop.  I'm thinking it'll be easier to introduce marine life successfully to Mars once large bodies of water are established than it will be to introduce and sustain generations of land-based mammals, birds, etc.  But, of course, I could be wrong.  I'm just speculating...

--Cindy   

MS member since 6/01

Phobos asks:  "So what do you think early Mars colonists might put in a survival kit for excursions away from home?  I imagine there might be a small transmitter with a homing signal incase some unfortunate soul gets stranded.  I couldn't imagine trying to give someone directions to my location if I was out in the middle of nowhere."

*I suppose it would depend on distance (actual or calculated) from the nearest human habitat (so it could be seen), but what about a flare gun (modified for the Marsian environment)?

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Josh wrote:  "Do not be surprised if Odyssey shows just as much, if not more water in the northern hemisphere ( that ocean is still there, it's just a few feet under the ground! )."

*Maybe this should go in a "terraforming" folder, but since we're discussing water here, I'm wondering (and, yes, trying to project VERY far into the possible Marsian future): If, through man's efforts, large bodies of water are one day a reality on Mars -- will it be possible, based on Mars soil composition, water/atmosphere composition, to introduce fish, corral, and the like on Mars?  On Earth we have fresh water and salt water, of course.  Would water on Mars be salt-based or fresh, or other?  And since our bodies of water have their own unique ecosystems, is it possible to project having fish and etc. on Mars some day?  It would be strange to think of large bodies of water with no life forms in them.  I suppose these are really BIG MAYBE questions to the extreme, but I'm going with my flow of thought here, like usual. 

Josh:  "Anyone want to give Cindy the mathematical formulas?"

*No, please!  Have mercy!  I'm highly allergic to numbers!   :0

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Shaun wrote:  "That's why those of us serious about space exploration and Mars colonisation get packaged up with all the nutcases and tarred with the same brush!!!"

*Yes.  Whenever I've mentioned the Mars Society to friends and acquaintances, either in person or online, I make sure to tell them that this ISN'T a "UFO buff thing," mention Dr. Zubrin's credentials, and the fact that Carl Sagan, Buzz Aldrin, and Sir Arthur C. Clarke have all given public, documented praise of Zubrin's ideas.  That has been very effective.  Usually the only "flack" I may get after that point is, "Well, don't you guys care about the Earth?" -- relating their protest to social and environmental ills, etc.  I tell them at the Mars Society is pro-environmental-issues as well.

Shaunt:  "Which brings me back to the late, great Carl Sagan, who insisted we OWE IT TO OURSELVES to be skeptical, or else start believing in pixies again and burning innocent women as witches!

*Yes.  He was definitely a brilliant, progressive mind.  And that huge, sweet grin of his -- I miss him.

Shaun:  "Sorry! Sometimes I get a little bit hot under the collar."

*There's no need to apologize, and you're totally justified to get "hot under the collar" about this.  The forces of non-reason, irrationality, and mysticism have the potential (as history has proven time and again) to lead to great destruction and human misery. 

--Cindy

Phobos writes:  "Speaking of calories, will Mars astronauts just subsist on the normal 2000 calorie diet...?"

*I suppose that will depend, and not just on levels of activity (or inactivity).  Considering that we humans all have our vices, pleasures, etc., it's probably pretty much a "given" that the astronauts won't have liquor or beer with them.  Sex?  I'm not sure I want to touch (pardon the pun) on that.  Masturbation?  Possibly more likely than sexual intercourse with another astronaut.  My point is that, although they will be very busy while *on* Mars with chores, duties, assignments, scouting, exploring, etc., en-route is a bit different.  They'll have the ability to exercise, and will have their books (probably electronic, right?), games, etc...but I think chances are good that they will be eating more both en-route to Mars or Earth, and during the mission itself.  Sure, these will be highly trained and specialized people...but when the options for indulgence are minimal, they'll probably opt for food.

As an aside, it may be a good idea to include the option for gambling games for the crew.  Humans need a level of indulgence.

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

CM Edwards:  "Oh dear.  A horrible realization has just occured to me: with the exception of chicory, all major agricultural sources of caffeine are from tropical plants, which will be very hard to grow on Mars..."

*Yeah, but at least instant coffee is in granulated form.  For that matter, whole coffee beans can be sent to settlers or colonists, along with a grinder or two.  I like gourmet coffee.  However, I pity soda drinkers.  Even if Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, etc., can be turned into a powdered drink and shipped to them, it won't taste good without carbonated water.  Of course, keeping soda icy cold on Mars doesn't sound like much of a difficulty!   

--Cindy

Phobos:  "I can barely even stand watching TV news anymore.  It's so predictable and dumbed down. It feels more like the National Enquirer than a true form of journalism."

*Agreed, totally.  Besides, there's always the biases and what they don't want you to hear -- or are unable to ascertain for themselves.  Even the CBS, NBC, and ABC nightly news are watered down; mostly NBC now caters to the elderly and aging baby-boomer crowd with many news segments devoted to health and medical issues for senior citizens.  You'd think they were broadcasting from a nursing home.  Maybe NBC, CBS, and ABC have rationalized their change from the rather intense, old-fashioned hardline journalist techniques I recall as a kid growing up in the 1970s because of these 24-hour cable network news broadcasts (which, yes, are themselves looking more and more like tabloid "news" segments), but that's no reason if so.

Phobos:  "Anyways, I'm beginning to wonder if education can even do the job of instilling greater appreciation of science in people."

*Carl Sagan discusses this in _Candle in the Dark_.     

Phobos:  "Most students don't understand that true science is often a mixture of both technical competence and creativity, which is very similiar to the way an artist works.  But most revere artists while they see scientists as just these hags with big pocket protectors.  We need to destroy those stereotypes and make science class focus less on the boring rote crap and more on the thinking and creative aspects."

*Excellent points!  Unfortunately, we live in a society where a jock is considered Campus King while the kids interested in science, philosophy, etc., are considered "geeks" and "nerds."

--Cindy

BGD wrote:  b) A Social Council: Choosen from the colonists by the colonists...c) A Executive Council...d) A Judicial Council:

*I like your ideas!  Good food for thought.    How many people, by ratio to the populace, do you propose be on each Council?  Also, do you propose a length of term for Council members?  Should there be a limit imposed on how many times an individual may serve on any said Council (to avoid a sense of entitlement/empowerment by that individual...however, what if that individual is very good at what he or she does, and can provide a higher level of insight, guidance and wisdom than most others?)?

3. Ownership: A form of communism: nodoby owns anything, but certain objects/possesion rights etc will be given to certain individuals, for certain reasons, for a short period/long period/their whole life. Examples:
- rights of possesion for basic needs objects, manufactured inside the colony, and which are widely available for all colonists: clothes etc

*Gifts bestowed by others, and family heirlooms, should be included in this category as well.  For example, my father bought a traditional Japanese tea set in Tokyo for his future bride (then unknown) in the early 1950s, when in the Army and on his way to Korea...if I were a settler or colonist on Mars, I'd want that in my trust and keep.  I would be more than happy to have it on display in a dome museum, for example, so that others could see and enjoy its beauty  -- but I'd want its well-being and care in my trust and keep.

- no rights of possesion for general goods, buildings, domes etc.
- equality among sharing everything: food, other resources etc.

*Would bartering and trading between individuals be encouraged or frowned upon?  For instance, if I don't like chickpeas, would it be considered a social "no-no" if I wanted to trade my pound of chickpeas for a pound of rice?  So long as the trade/bartering is between two consenting adults (no coercion or intimidation involved), I see no problem with this.

--Cindy

Me:  If that's so, then everyone is on a "high horse." 

Clark:  Some are, and when I meet them, I call them out too. It's like the Screaming Sermon people who yell at you for not believing what is so fundamentaly obvious and true to them- you are doing it too (not as bad, and much more skillfully)

*Hmmmm.  For a man who embraces Derrida's philosophy of Deconstruction (i.e., "nothing's wrong, nothing's right, nothing's good, and nothing's bad"), you sure have some strong opinions.    Perhaps you are projecting a bit of your own self onto me?  I'm simply sharing and stating my opinions and viewpoints, like everyone else here.

I have a reading assignment for you!:

Pages 927-984 (chapter "This is John Galt Speaking"), _Atlas Shrugged_ by Ayn Rand. 

--Cindy