New Mars Forums

*Agreed!  About 6 years ago, I happened to read a book which turned my head -- from a very unexpected quarter.  The book [the title of which I cannot recall; sorry] attempted to recount various "mystical/religious traditions" supposedly used/observed by the Sumerians [at the time I was studying comparative religion and mythology -- in my usual agnostic fashion].  However, the editor of the book was no mystic himself; as a matter of fact, in the Introduction, he pointed out quite bluntly his opinion -- and the quoted opinion of another author -- that the current day's extreme fascination with mysticism and radical "green" issues, if taken to their logical end, would plunge civilization back into the dark ages; he cited some examples of former civilizations.  Carl Sagan would've liked this Introduction.  I'd been so absorbed in my comparative [and other] studies that this obvious correlation didn't occur to me until it was right under my nose. 

Jean-Jacques Rousseau was the self-appointed spokesman for "The Noble Savage" 18th-century idea; actually, one could rightfully say he fathered it.  Rousseau's ideas in this regard resulted in the loss of friendships amongst his fellow "philosophes," most notably that of Denis Diderot's friendship.  Also, Rousseau and Voltaire were absolutely ::at odds:: on this matter [and many other matters besides].  Upon reading Rousseau's notions of "the noble savage" and etc., Voltaire took up pen and wrote:  "I have received, monsieur, your new book against the human race...never has so much intelligence been deployed in an effort to make us beasts.  One wants to walk on all fours after reading your book, but since I lost the habit more than sixty years ago, I fear I cannot recover it."   

--Cindy

<gulp>

Erm...I think I'll stick to taking my chances with *human* error solely...thanks anyway...

--Cindy

...yes, especially for the future surgeons of Mars.  I suppose it would be possible for an aspiring surgeon to learn the basic [and more complicated] techniques via video, intensive instruction/tutoring from Earth, etc. [if there's no experienced surgeon on Mars to assist in hands-on, personal training]...but I'm not sure I'd want to be the first person to go under the knife of a person so trained.  ???

--Cindy

*I'm going to take a brief departure from my usual optimism and say this:  If the whole Mars thing goes down the drain -- settling it, colonizing it, etc. -- because of warmongering, bone-headed humans who can't learn from past mistakes [and those mistakes are VERY WELL DOCUMENTED for all the civilized, technologized world to read and LEARN FROM], then the human race has got coming to it what it deserves, both on Mars and on Earth.  Either Mars will mark a ::departure:: from "the usual gang of idiots" mentality which permeates our race here on Earth, or it won't.  It's up to the people who initially settle the planet to "set the tone" -- or at least TRY to. 

Violence begets violence.  Weapons are a statement of anticipating violence.

I rest my case. 

I've got family coming to visit, and will be at these message boards infrequently over the next week.

--Cindy

Phobos:  I don't like the way some characters from the old episodes are being introduced into the news ones.  The whole thing with R2D2 and C3P0 being invented by Anakin seems  overly contrived to me.

*I think it was "just" C-3PO who was invented by Anakin.  And yes, that's overly contrived, considering he was supposedly a little kid in a slave colony who builds this intelligent robot [who also speaks very differently than he does] -- yeah, right.

Phobos:  Han Solo is just some guy that Obi-Wan and Luke met in a bar by random chance.  I don't really think there's a good reason for introducing him unless there's some scene between him and Jabba.  In any case, if he's in there I hope it's very subtle and he doesn't end up becoming a first-man or whatever it's called at Amidala's and Anakin's wedding.

*Erm...you must really have found "STII: The Clone Wars" to be a boring flop!  Did you fall asleep toward the end of the movie?    Amidala and Anakin got married in this movie; toward the end, on her home planet, by a huge expanse of water on a sunny afternoon; she was wearing a lacy headcovering, and she and Anakin were exchanging vows [inaudible to the audience] with a man looking like a minister presiding.  Han wasn't there. 

Phobos:  "In any case, I hope Jar Jar Binks takes some fatal blaster fire early on in the movie."

*Lol!  Actually, I thought he was tolerable in this movie.  A little Jar-Jar goes a loooooong way, and a little Jar-Jar did make my heart grow a bit fonder for the quirky character.  But there was enough of him in the movie.  Personally, I liked the stormy water world with those tall, slinky characters in the brightly-lit spheres best of all the "worlds."

The one character I absolutely HATE in both the Phantom Menace and Clone Wars is that blue thing on Tattooine that looks like an ardvark with big wings, and is dressed -- and talks like -- Danny DeVito doing a Bad-Ass Mechanic character.

Lucas has forgotten, I think, that sexual tension and tongue-in-cheek/wry humor work best in his movies...including characters which AREN'T overly exaggerated.

--Cindy

*I'm sorry, but I've just got to say this.  Let's not make the Marsian frontier out to be another gun-slinging "Wild, Wild West."  I'm ::not:: implying that is what you are doing, btw. 

Guns were brought over to the New World from the Old World...on the same planet, obviously.  There is no reason why we "have to" take guns to Mars.

The first settlers will be highly educated people facing down a lot of daily challenges, some of which are unforseeable even to those of us who like to look ahead and try to brainstorm issues and solutions.

So long as the settlers take care to try and raise QUALITY children, with high educational standards, and give them plenty of affection and attention, I just honestly do not foresee criminal elements being a major -- or even minor -- issue on Mars for a long, long time.  "Idle hands lead to mischief" is the old saying.  There won't be much "idle hands" on Mars...not if people want to keep eating, drinking water, and retain their sanity.  There is lots of violence in America in particular because violence is a major theme of our "pop culture" life and the socialization process.  The old rootin-tootin, gun-slinging, bang-em-up cowboy archetype is legendary here.  Cartoons, even of 60-70 years ago, are rife with cartoon animals chasing each other with axes, billy clubs, shooting at each other, dropping anvils on each others' heads, on and on.

Socialization is key. 

Again:  There is no native animal life on Mars.  No one is going to be going out hunting elk or rabbit.  There are no potentially hostile native peoples already living there.

The first settlements will be small, Earth is a LOOOONG ways away, and I'd bet dollars to stale doughnuts the settlers are going to be very humanitarian, cooperative, and nice to each other; nicer than most folks here are.  They'll need each other; every member will be important and significant.

If a criminal does pop up in the group [yeah, there's always one rotten apple in the barrel], there are many alternative ways to dealing with such a person.  Confinement, for one thing.

I'd just like to see NO GUNS on Mars, period.  Given the unique and specific situation for the early settlers on Mars in particular, I just cannot see a justifiable reason for them.  Humans got along without guns for MILLENIA prior to their invention.  They've gotten to be a bad habit, IMO.

--Cindy

*In the next installment we'll see Anakin going over the Dark Side for sure; Senator Palpatine [spelling?] will be key in that.  Amidala will be pregnant with the twins [Luke and Leia].  By this time, she will either have left or try to leave Anakin, who has become abusive; she will leave either when she senses he's on the verge of going over to the Dark Side or already has.  Perhaps the twins will be born before she can escape, and either Anakin has her killed, or she flees before he can; regardless, the twins are eventually separated and she dies or is killed before Leia grows to womanhood.

A very young Han Solo will be introduced into the mix, perhaps subtly.  We'll see more of C-3PO and R2D2.  Perhaps at this point we'll see Obi-Wan Kenobi go into exile, now that his very strong and formerly prize pupil has become Darth Vader and has put a price on Kenobi's head; Yoda does the same.  The Jedi Knighthood has been severely damaged and fragmented by Anakin's betrayal of them.

As for that kid you mention; his father was a Boba-Fett [if I'm misspelling some of this stuff, beg pardon] type of character.  I bet this kid grows up to be ::the:: Boba-Fett we knew in "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back."

--Cindy

*Static electricity, you say?  Hmmmm.  That, combined with the lower Marsian gravity, might make for some interesting "hairstyles."  You know, every hair standing on end, like in the movies? 

Better watch out for those fingertip-touch shocks, too. 

--Cindy

*Karaoke...I can see the tomatoes flying now...    Just kidding.

Zubrin does mention that games will be provided for the crew.  I hope this includes board games, or something along INTERactive lines.

I'm referring more to *symbolism,* and the human need for it.  A Jewish astronaut, for instance, probably will not be able to light a mennorah (spelling?)...fire hazard.  A Pagan astronaut might be able to stow away a tiny Yule tree (one of those 1-foot-tall deals). 

I've been reading the work of Carl G. Jung.  Symbolism, archetypes, ritual, etc., seem to be rather important to humans.  Now that I've been delving more deeply into his writings, I'm wondering about the lack of symbology the astronauts *might* have, and how that potential stifling might affect their mental and emotional health (and no, I'm not anticipating anyone will go nutso en-route to Mars).

In conjunction with this, it would be very interesting to have the astronauts keep detailed logs of their dreams, especially their first night on Mars.  Psychiatrists and psychologists would have a treasure-trove of stuff to pore over and analyze! 

--Cindy

*Yup, I'm looking a bit further into the future on this one, but here goes:

Mars has been settled.  Roughly 100 adults now live on Mars, permanently.  Children have already been born, the eldest of which is 4 years old.

Each "civilized" nation has its own school regulations, education requirements, etc.  Let's say of the 100 adults on Mars, there are 3 nations represented [USA, UK, and France].

After the recent flaps here in the USA of a California judge declaring our Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional [yesterday] and today's ruling that public tax money is to be given to private religious schools as "vouchers," I'm wondering about education for children on Mars.

Let's say all 100 adults live in the same settlement.  How best to educate the children?  Collectively, following guidelines set forth by, say, the United Nations on Earth?  Perhaps classroom teaching sessions by computer, with an adult "supervisor" hovering nearby?  What if parents want to teach their children in the privacy of their little hab, claiming the children are not missing out on the socialization process [and perhaps they aren't] by "home-schooling" them?

How will Marsians ensure that ALL children are getting adequate and proper schooling?  By what standards, guidelines, etc.?  Would it be best to have perhaps 4 hours of "formal" education, and then perhaps 2-3 hours of hands-on education [cooking, gardening, tool making -- anything useful and productive for the settlement with an adult willing to guide and oversee the child or children]? 

I'm thinking there will have to be some uniform guidelines, expectations, standards, etc., for the education of the first few generations of native Marsians especially.  Their parents will be highly intelligent and educated people [scientists, engineers, etc.], but that is no assurance of motivation, ambition, or a like level of intelligence in their offspring.  Their parents will probably be very busy people, too, working on many different challenges.

These will also be children who will grow up hearing mother and father speaking about swimming, watching a lightning storm, riding bicycles, jumping to huge raked-up pile of autumn leaves on a warm Indian-summer day, rolling around in the grass, casually walking outdoors, etc., etc...and never experience these things for themselves.

So, any ideas?  I'm thinking a combination "old-fashioned country school" scenario plus computer plus hands-on [vocational-technical] training right there in the settlement [which would entail purposeful interaction with adults other than a teacher and parents] in combination might be the best bet.

--Cindy

*Hmmmm.  I actually enjoyed "Star Wars II" [the actor playing Anakin Skywalker is such a stud, even if I am old enough to have been his babysitter, *lol*]..."Star Wars I:  The Phantom Menace" was, IMO, a flop.

As for the new Star Trek movie coming out:  Not interested.  Even if William Shatner's in it, he's too old.  If he looked like what he did in the 1960s ::and:: in the first Star Trek movie of 1979, I'd be drooling in my popcorn at the local multiplex.  But he's not.

Of all the Star Trek movies I ever enjoyed [ST the Next Generation never clicked with me], the first and last were the best [with the original crew in them]; the others were basically a sci-fi variation of the Keystone Cops Meet Klingons and Environmentalists.

Besides...Vulcans don't get as much respect and appreciation as they should.  So there! 

--Cindy

*Well, I think this brings it down to three points:  Do we Mars enthusiasts want humans to get to Mars simply for the sake of adventure and the challenge ::or:: do we see it as a way to preserve homo sapiens in the event some nutcase here on Earth finally does "push the button" and provoke a nuclear catastrophe ::or:: a combination of both?

Even if humans do successfully settle and/or colonize Mars, eventually our sun [Sol] will go into its Red Giant phase.  It'll balloon into such a massive fireball that it'll consume Earth...and probably Mars as well.  Antares, alpha Scorpii, is a Red Giant, and its circumference is larger than that of Mars' orbit around our sun.  In other words, Sol is [currently] to Antares what Earth is to Sol.  The sun will then either explode or implode.  Any life in the solar system as we know it today will be el-extincto.

I like to maintain a level of optimism, but getting out of our solar system alone will be a feat of Herculean proportions.  It will require that technological know-how will continue, that Earthlings haven't blown themselves to smithereens in the meantime ::or:: that Marsians can continue space-flight and space-immigration plans even if Earth goes ka-boom thanks to religious or political fanatics and nuclear war...etc., etc.

Even if humans [however they have have mutated] were to eventually reach and settle/colonize another star system in another part of our galaxy [the enormity of that feat staggers me; I cannot comprehend it], there is no assurance that the star of that system might remain stable.

Cutting to the chase here:  I think humankind should push itself to whatever limits it can reach -- even if it means someday manned ships make it to the Andromeda Galaxy via a wormhole.  I'm for human exploration and extra-terrestrial settling/colonization for the two above reasons I gave [both for the adventure and challenge of it, and also to help maintain the species].  However, what if the universe itself collapses upon itself in the very far future...and mankind is still thriving here and there? 

Fact is, everything dies; at least it does in how we understand the term "death".

There are so many "if's" to space exploration and settling/colonization.  There are still some pretty big "if's" to getting to Mars, seeing if people can thrive there, if terraforming [to some degree at least] is possible, if people will want to remain, etc., etc.

I like your enthusiasm; however, I prefer to take it one step at a time.  Yes, we are cosmic infants.  And though we cannot stay in the cradle forever, we must also remember that human babies learn first to roll over, then to scoot along, then to wobble up on their feet, then cruise around furniture -- then they take that first step.  We took a tentative first step in 1969.  We have other "first steps" facing us now, and IMO will have to focus on the immediate, reachable goals first.  I like to think of all this as stepping stones across a creek; the moon was our first stepping stone across the cosmic creek...let's focus on getting our foot solidly on the second stepping stone named Mars. 

--Cindy