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I would not accept any form of centralized government for the whole space. I beliewe it absolutely essential for a succesful colonization and spread of human kind (and other earth life) to the stars the competition between various peoples, nations and hopefully one day, planets.
Of course it varies mostly on technology, if we will conquer the distances easily at some point in the future, the threat of to much centralization will be stronger, but there will always be some people who will not want anything to do with the central power, thus the potential for conflict is to great by having a strong centralizing power.
A system more like we have to today, of independent countries joined together in cooperative entity like the UN (even though it is hugely corrupt as it is today) is by far preferable, whose main purpose is maybe as means of cooperation if there would be an external threat, or to mediate between nations if there is threat of war.
One thing I have newer understood, why is it bound to happen, as most sci-fi writers and future thinkers, that a single planet will be a single entity, a single nation with a single government? Is it not more likely, specially on the early stages of colonization (specially within the solar system) that there will be a few different nations and governments on each planet, specially within the same solar system?
But for any of this to happen, we need a huge population surge, beeing only about 6 billion people (and stuck there for now some time) is by far not enough to populate the galaxy, not even the solar system. I could see the moon as a big single city (coruscant style) with billions of people in the future, and Mars and Venus colonized, start of wich must happen within this century.
Then we will be strong enough to push further into space, the human resource is the only limited factor we have, and the most valuable resource, we need more scientists, engineers and kapitalists to create the economic and technological breakthrough of becoming a space faring species.
I suspect that the reason a planet will more likely have one single goverment is that there will be one set up to allow the colonisation to happen anyway. More or less the planetary development council will simply grow into being the planetary authority.
Any seperation of nations on a new planet will happen probably by violent disagreement between the colonists.
Interesting is what will happen now. As the EU can run on current treaties there is no immediate disaster but for reform to happen there will need to be a lot of negociation and for europe the status quo it will be.
Still there is always a possibility of a wide EU with a small group going it alone to create a core EU which will be a lot closer bonded. For France, Germany, Belgium, Italy and possibly spain this is a possibility that has been forwarded over the years. And there is still the possibility that the EU becomes a lot weaker.
Well a little jump across the Atlantic, The Dutch are currently voting in there referendum on the European constitution and the initial reports are that turn out has well passed 30% of the population and that the vote will be "Nee" and at 60% voting negative the constitution will be dead.
If it has a chance it will be reviewed on june the 16th as the political leaders of the union meet to ask what happens and what to do next. With the UK due to take over the running presidency of the Union in July this means that the future of the EU and of its advancement will only happen if the UK can get it done.
With France's position very weakened this could allow for big changes in how the EU operates and its current "social" method of operation going towards a more "free market" vision.
Still the doom and gloom is current in many european capitals and many believe that the Union is now doomed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4599681.stm]BBC article on German plans
Hans Eichel has been reported at being at a meeting where Germany plans to withdraw from the EU and the Euro. They plan to blame the Euro for Germanys current economic weakness. Though the German goverment denies the claim it comes at a very sensitive time.
Wow.
This actually gives me a little bit of a concern to any base where such a dramatic flood could hit. Mayhaps some form of flood defence or flood wall may be a necessity.
Grypd, if a cycler is tracking a free return orbit (more or less) being "full" or empty" would seem largely irrelevant. Mars orbital capture and landing will require delta V - - going back to Earth's vicinity will be "free" - - no?
Solar thermal rockets (for example) can be used to incrementally adjust trajectories to remain "free return" meaning fuel requirements are minimal.
As far as re-using rockets, what about landing RL-10 propelled payloads on the Mars surface, refurbish the engines and send them back to Earth?
Ummm, free-return is not "free" by any means, free is simply referring that you are letting the suns' gravity do alot of the work so that you can depart from Mars at any time without any extra fuel compared to regular HTO. You still have to burn considerable fuel to leave Mars orbit.
No Bill, the vehicle used on the Mars-to-Mars Orbit and back must be reuseable AND stationed on Mars. This is the only way to sufficently leverage Martian propellant production in order to hold down the per-sortie mass of each cargo trip.
By http://courses.ncssm.edu/math/TCMConf/T … t.pdf]free return I mean a trajectory that arrives in the vicinity of Mars and then Earth using gravity assists only. Such creatures exist but are difficult for Mars because of certain peculiarities in the Mars orbit. Aldrin cycler is another term that is used.
Tiny adjustments can be made by solar ion or solar thermal during the long passages between Earth and Mars and at Mars the colony simply does not stop, or even slow down - - one way settlers re-enter small capsules for aerobraking, aerocapture and landing while the more luxurious mother ship keeps going, with no aerobraking.
Perhaps the mother ship alters its course to stop at an Earth-Moon LaGrange point for another set of colonists. This way, tiny capsules (t/Space sized) can carry settlers from Earth to LEO/L1 and the colony ship and those same capsules are used to land on Mars while the six month journey is made feasible by living on board a larger ship.
With a genuine free return trajectory, the fuel needs are minimal to none. Mars Direct free returns are chosen based on propulsion failure.
= = =
The linked exercise is to design a lunar free return, defined as the ability to return from the Moon without any propulsive engines burns after the trans-lunar insertion burn.
A Mars free return would return a spacecraft to Earth, after a Mars fly-by without propulsive engine burns.
= = =
A http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4eve … .html]2014 Mars free return trajectory that assumes main engine failure, thus very little propulsion is needed so that attitude control thrusters are sufficient.
Longuski and graduate student Masataka Okutsu discovered that the safest route to take would be one that permitted a quick return trip, via Venus, in case of an accident that forced the Mars landing to be aborted. The Martian gravity would bend the spacecraft's trajectory, hurtling it toward Venus, where another gravity assist would guide the ship to Earth. Because of the gravity-assisted trajectories, the spacecraft could make the return trip with only minor attitude adjustments from small thrusters, even if its main engine were disabled, Longuski says.
Using solar thermal, doing continuing burns between Earth & Mars, fuel consumption would be miniscule.
There will still be a fuel/supply need that could be fueled by water and chemical extraction by asteroidal mining. There is also the possibility of supplying the cyclers with breathable air and water. Even with a reasonably free return there will still be a fuel use and the craft that have latched on to them will also likely need a resupply to replace losses.
The asteroidal miners that this method envisages will be automated processors and they could have there production collected by automated means too. There is nothing to stop a few robotic "tankers" going from asteroid to asteroid deploying new miners and siphoning off the previously dropped miners and delivering this to Mars area space. With an effective permanently based Mars shuttle these could be collected and the supplies not used by the shuttle or Cycler can be dropped off in Earth orbit.
It comes down to economics and an earth TSTO or SSTO will have a very good passenger capacity but not necassarily a good cargo capacity. The economics of resupplying from C type asteroids the consumables of the cyclers and any station in Earth orbit, plus Mars shuttles and even manned Moon bases is very close.
srmeaney, the federal government of the United of America will not permit a sovereign government on Mars or any other celestial body until it has strength. History of the U.S. is that it only respects strength. Not good, it violates many of the founding principles of the U.S. constitution, but true. The U.S. military wants to maintain dominance over space because that's the high ground. Military thinking views holding the high ground as maintaining a strategic advantage. This means the U.S. will want to retain ownership of Mars until a Mars colony is able to force independence. It may not require a violent revolution like the War of Independence, but perhaps a show of organized strong government with unique culture and ability to defend itself like Canada when it separated from England. This means you have to build the colony first, establish the Commonwealth of Mars later.
No, you do not. It has only been done that way in the past because the world is built on 'plunder and occupy then get recognition'.
It is not the world that is built on "plunder and occupy" it is the people. Still people change and with luck we will get over this, but right now and with the recent history and the state we find the world in it means it will be a long while before this happens. pity
While im quite aware of the US Military's dreams of Orbiting Mass Drivers and singular Dominion over the Universe, Mars does not need a military to be strong.
The US is not the only country in the world that plans to increase its prescence in space but for the US it has the problem that these other countries are catching up to the USA quick in science and financial power. If it wishes to appear to be a superpower it has to have the ability to show power all across the world and still defend its assets. At the moment for the USA its dominance of military space is giving it this advantage. It has to protect this. Still in historic terms there has been really too effective ways that colonisation has happened. One was for commercial benefit of the host nation and the other was as a result of military technical improvement allowing for the host nation to expand.
It seems to go in waves with a military rivalry that results in an improved transportation method that then allows commercial benefit which then begets military involvement with another rivalry and then to commercial again, each time the transportation improves. And with improved transportation you get people able to more freely move and this means colonisation.
It does make sense to use a cycler to deliver and return large cargoes between Earth and Mars as it comes down to efficiency. And since most cargoes will be going just one way and that is too mars the cycler can be refueled from the asteroid belts C type asteroids and return practically empty. Of course in Earth vicinity it can pick up the cargoes heading to Mars and the next colonists.
Still it all comes down to the goverment or goverments that has the political and financial will to actually go with a Mars colonisation plan.
Well a little flair up between Boeing and Airbus has both the EU and the USA going to court.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4594581.stm]BBC Article
The USA blames the EU over the subsidies it has given to fund research in the civilian Airbus planes where the EU states its just a more open standard as the USA supplies a lot of military research funds to Boeing. In the end it is all down to aparent market share where boeing with its aging standard of planes has lost to Airbus. And Airbus has plans to produce a new smaller class that will be a direct threat to the dreamliner which Boeing hopes to be its saviour and give it back its market share. Anyway of to the WTO we all will go.
Getting water out of an Asteroid could be accomplished by the delivery of an automatic miner. It would initially bolt itself to the outside of the chosen target, by use of chemical,mechanical means and then deploy its solar panel electricity supply. Then the automatic miner can drill into the Asteroid and by use of heat evaporate the water etc to be stored.
As to actually mining the materials in the Asteroid that is a lot harder. Still there has to be a way to actually get the materials without the benefits of gravity.
Great another spammer :angry:
http://www.newmars.com/cgi-bin/ikonboar … 27;t=8]New Mars, Youth Group, Worth a look
God I hate them,
And that was him on holiday too.
Of interest is that a lot of european leaders apart from the UKs are stating that though the rejection was serious the referendums should and will continue. There is a Union leaders meeting in June 16th and it is likely that it will be a case of ok so what happens next.
And France could well redo its process of ratifing the treaty with a vote in the French parliament. If the treaty has certain tweaks to it this is likely especially if certain concessions to France are imposed.
Well for the UK which was likely to reject the treaty by a very sizable majority up to 75 to 80% the rejection of it in France feels like a bit we have been cheated. We had hoped to do it ourselves.
Still the spotlight now falls on the Dutch who are likely to reject it on wednesday and so basically cripple it. But then again there is a possibility that since all countries must have ratified the treaty by November 2006 that they continue with the referendums and give all contries a chance and then in Next years vote they try again.
Another option is to try to negociate a new treaty that would make it more appealing to the French and Dutch but this would inversely make it less appealing to the UK and certain others. Still one of the tenets of the constitution was that any country that had not voted in the treaty by November 2006 was that they would politely be asked if they wished to stay as part of the EU at all.
Edit
Esa is a seperate agency inside Europe and not directly tied to the EU. In theory this rejection should not have any problems for ESA at all and could actually boost ESA with extra funds.
Oh well, clark I take it back you are not that mad. but sorry srmeaney you have taken the job
Anyway im sorry but I cannot agree with your analysis of the state of the world and Americas part in "propping" up dictatorial goverments. Certainly during the cold war this happened but since then a lot has changed. Still the demand for armaments is ever increasing. Certain states and principally african ones are desperate to buy weapons and this is to the point that there debt to other countries is crippling that country. And its not only Africa that we have to look out for. We have what can only be a budding arms race in the far east amongst Japan,China,India,Pakistan,Vietnam and both Koreas add in Taiwan and Singapore and it is quite an explosive situation to the point that more ships are being laid down in 2004 than there where produced in the 5 years that where behind it and in 2005 this number seems to be likely to be broken again.
This is not a good thing it is the result of tensions and strains to do with the historic events of the area and the rise in terrorism, political/religous extremes and two new economic giants all competing for market share and resources. Actually it has been thought very likely that the next world war will be if anywhere kicked off in the far east. And to blame the USA for this is silly.
It is the situation in the far east which is worrying military planners as it looks like the states are merging into there own treaty organisations and mutual defence agreements that look supiciously like the same patchwork of treaties that covered europe in 1913.
People don't seem to understand how weapons are developed.
If we build penatrator platforms, other countries will develop ASAT missiles.
If they do that, we'll build Point defense lasers.
If we do that, they'll build bigger and better methods to try to get through those...
And so on.
So to say that X weapon will make us less safe is utter bull plop. It will just ignite a new type of arms race. All of which have ultimately been benificial to society as a whole.
Ah but you dont understand how weapons are made either it comes down to one up manship as well. If you dont build that weapon then your enemies will as they want to be top dog.
It is all to give one country the edge over another. The USA has the edge at the moment but like everything there are enough countries snapping at its heels.
We have seen that Griffin will no matter what follow Bush's instructions and finish the shuttle in 2010. With the ISS still to complete and with all the delays the shuttle has to its return we can only take it that there will not be any time for a repair mission to Hubble.
We can debate it all we like but NASA has no time left now to do the mission so the JWT is all that is left.
If they have the ability to hit objects in space then they have the ability to hit mainland USA. At least its harder to hit a moving target than one sitting on land. And in space you have up,down and sideways to dodge and it is very easy to miss.
Peer of the realm. a member of the house of lords. Nobility
What we do is we knight them or make them lords or ladies. Frankly a rather good idea if they can make fun of it they can run it, the country that is.
What has always happened is that an army is designed and prepared to fight the last war when the new one starts. For the USA it means they have to look who they will be fighting and what it will take to do so.
The obvious threat now is not the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq but it is China and the armed bases where these terrorists are trained.
Conventional aircraft are extremely vulnerable to very cheap radar and air defences and so if you wish to take out that very important bunker or base another means must be found. Certain technologies like mass drivers give you long range bombardment from the sea, but cannot reach every where. Rods from god though are perfect bunker and base destroyers. These rely not on explosive force but on their kinetic force which acts like an earthquake on the target plus one large explosion..
So for the USA to be criticised for forward thinking is rather silly, and I would rather have someone who is friendly to my own country with the capacity to take out the badguys painlessly.
...and lots of robberies with the crooks wearing Darth Vader helmets.
I wonder where Cobra commander was and does he have an alibi...hmmm ???
*Grypd wrote:
It is also thought of by people in France as making Europe more like that of Britain and the USA and would reduce there social infrastructures. Incidentally the constitution is likely to recieve a No from Britain when it comes to a vote as people here think it would make Britain more like Europe and force on us legislation that would impair our society.
I've seen comments in news articles wherein Britain is called "America's Poodle" by folks on the European continent.
What is the British reaction to this charge?
Don't care what others think? Try to make amends and be conciliatory to other European nations? Try to hold a "middle of the road" stance?
In my mind, I always separate Britain from Europe...but probably on the basis of language and shared history (American Colonies, etc.).
--Cindy
It does seem that the charges that Britain and Tony Blair in particular are Americas poodle annoy a lot of people in Britain. Certainly it gets worse when the same charges are used by politicians in the UK as well. Unlike in the USA where the war in Iraq has reasonably broad support the population in the UK where not that enamoured of the idea of the war in the first place and the ones who did support it have quickly gone sour to it.
Anyone who has been paying attention will notice that Tony Blair is looking haggard even after having one the last election. This election was one where even without a credible opposition alternative the labour goverment recieved a vastly reduced majority and an almost unworkable goverment but for labour it could have been a lot worse except for belief. This is the popular belief is that Blair will step down and soon to allow his chancellor Gordon Brown to take over. For all intents Tony Blair is no longer ruling the goverment as Gordon Brown has as the almost annointed successor been the focus of the MPs and pressure groups that run the country. It is only a matter of when that Blair will step down and when would be best for the country and his party. Still for all intents the UK is considered the bad man of europe. First of all we tend to go our own way politically and would not join the Euro and are highly critical of the waste that is the beauracracy in brussels. Add to that that unlike europe we are being very effective economically and as such with a much stronger voice amongst the new states in europe. An example of problems between Europe and Britain is what is called the rebate. European countries put into europe about 1% of there gross income. But most countries recieve the majority of this back in grants to agricultural producers. The UK though does not due to the nature of the produce made and being an Island. Margaret Thatcher won back a rebate of the money as compensation and it has been a sore point with europe ever since as every year we get about £5 Billion back. Every time that Europe and in particular France tries to have it cancelled as Britains economy is so much stronger and getting stronger Britain warns it will simply use its veto.
When it comes down to europe most people in the UK look at it with major suspicion and there is even two political parties that are activally wanting Britain to withdraw from the whole buisness.
You could say that the Union is a federal type goverment with a weak head of state. Currently in one of the two chambers of the EU goverment is a post called the president of the European commission. He or she is really in charge of the European Beauracracy and is nothing like as powerful as for an example the head of state of one of the countries that make up the EU.
But in the constitution there would have been created an elected head of the European state. Add to this Europe as a whole taking its place on the world table like at the security council and the G8 group and soon rather than later there would have been a Federal Europe.
*Okay, but what about THIS quote:
"Controlling weapons on earth is one thing, but in space it's more difficult -- there are meteor showers, sunbursts - it's very dangerous."
???
All it'd take is a meteor to hit one and detonate it, no? The nukes would be -outside- Earth's atmosphere; no burning up of the meteor in entry.
There are lots of meteors zipping around out there. And yes, solar flares/coronal mass ejections. :-\
--Cindy
It actually takes a lot to detonate a Nuclear weapon and a meteorite or solar storm is very unlikely to be able to do this. The problem though is if the weapon itself is pushed back into an earth reentry it will litter a very large area with the most extremely hazardous material which will enter the food table.
*General Popovkin's concern:
"Controlling weapons on earth is one thing, but in space it's more difficult -- there are meteor showers, sunbursts - it's very dangerous."
Yeah, those are mighty good points.
http://www.spacewar.com/news/milspace-0 … l]Russians and nukes in space
--Cindy
The report is technically untrue. What Russia was saying was it will not base nuclear weapons in space. It is not allowed to anyway by treaty. But since ICBMs actually enter space in there boost phase if Russia where to launch those it would enter space.
Then again launching one Nuclear weapon into space as its target and letting the EMP of the blast do a lot of damage to electronic systems is another matter too.
NASA to make a map of the Moon.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/lunar-05 … Spacedaily article
This shows that we have actually a very poor base knowledge of our nearest neighbour. Until this probe is operational and its data added to Smarts and clementines we will have +or- of 300 km in knowing where an object actually is.
More on Griffins plans for shuttle orbiter retirement and use of the shuttle components as a "Heavy Lift".
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetra … Spacedaily article
Well it just leaves what sort of heavy lift will be made from the shuttle stack. A shuttle "C" or some over embodiement.