New Mars Forums

I just thought I would add this about "Limited" fusion process in some Brown Dwarf Stars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf

I guess nobody is thinking about human created hydrogen-1 fusion, but deuterium fusion typically, and also there has been speculation about using Helium 3 as an additive.

The statement that a 13 M Brown Dwarf can fuse deuterium, but a 65+ M can fuse lithium (But not hydrogen-1), implies to me that if you can kickstart a deuterium (Or Helium 3 mix), and then cause a Lithium fusion, there could be some significant additional power there.

If I am not mistaken, fusion burns are a reality in laboratory settings now, and since your process objective would not be to harness energy as electricity, perhaps a fusion rocket thrust were a small match can be lit to ignite a lithium fusion reaction to propel a rocket might make more sense (And be more reachable) then trying to compete with coal power here on Earth with a fusion power plant using non-Lithium and non-Hydrogen-1 fuels.

My intuition suggests to me that in their process where not only magnetic forces are used, but the inertia of solid lithium, and where you do not regard the burning of the walls of the confinement by plasma to be a problem (The lithium), but a part of the process, then you have greatly reduced the constraints on success, the requirements of control by magnetism.

As for saturating the HE3 market on Earth, I would speculate that that could happen, but if He3 from the Moon facilitated fast trips by miners, and some of their equipment to asteroids holding valuable metals, and propellants, the Helium 3 would translate into profit, by making those materials economically available.

I am going to check how much lithium there might be on the Moon   It is more made of lighter but not too light things.

Well, this will do.  It is there, don't know how hard to extract, but likely can be:
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/ … 85/1327/49

I suppose maybe the asteroids, also, but who can say what works best later?

My understanding is that the engines in the Grasshopper are supposed to be significantly more effective than previous.

I see that the site is quiet.  A large part of me wants to stop corresponding. I can see that I have my footprint all over the place, and in fact I really don't want to bogart (American local thing) the place.

However, following your reference to the Moon, and apparent affinity for the Moon, I implore you to consider certain thoughts that I have to offer.

We have to work within the constraints of what Nasa will do or SpaceX, and they are responding to social and financial pressures that they cannot ignore.

Here are some links:

http://www.space.com/20609-nuclear-fusi … -mars.html

http://io9.com/5908499/could-helium+3-r … y-problems

(I really think that the above article is too negative.  I don't think you have to heat the regolith, but rather expose it to a microwave energy tuned to Helium 3, so as to make it mobile.  Maybe I am wrong, but I think that would loosen some of it.  Then you would be able to try to capture it with ionic processes and electrostatic force).

http://www.space.com/20612-nasa-asteroi … ained.html

Have you considered Helium 3?  Granted there is much more water associated with the Moon than the Apollo era supposed, and there is no reason to not try to utilize that.  But if the 2nd link could prove true, my understanding is that a fusion fuel is available on the Moon, that could open up Mars to 30 to 90 day missions. 

I have included the 3rd link because we also have to factor in the fact that it might be possible to extract propellants and structural materials from small asteroids that can be moved into L1-2-3-4-5 locations about the Moon.

I would say being flexible is a good plan.  All of this might fit together into a master plan.  Perhaps water from the Moon used to loft Helium 3 into low lunar orbit, and propellants from small captured asteroids to get it up to higher orbits (L#).  And Fusion of Helium3 and/or Helium 3-Tritrium to get a fast and powerful ride to Mars.

I really hope I am not driving others away from this web site, that is not my intention.

That would be the human race all grown up.  (If ever).

Of course I understand how remote that achievement is relative to what I will actually experience, but while practicle matters have to rule our real actions, it makes it all much better to see that a pathway does exist.  I really don't like the "Just give up, because it's just not possible people"  they likely are among those who see the human race as existing to gratify their needs.

I prefer possibility, but seek justification to say it is possible.

Here is a website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-Neptune

My opinion is that if it were a true Mini-Neptune, your first thoughts that the moons of it would present opportunities does make the best sense.

However, I would not rule out a robotic system within the Mini-Neptunes atmosphere, where some Methane is available, then some construction materials can be hydrocarbons.  I would suggest perhap a well insulated cylinder filled with heated hydrogen gas, with one end up and one end down, and long enough that it can be pushed in opposing dirrections by wind currents of different directions.  Then some method to harvest energy from the wind power striking the surface.  The Hydrogen would be lighter than a Helium/Hydrogen mixed atmosphere (With a bit of Methane in it).  A warm interior would help flotation also as has been mentioned by others.  Such robots would then have to be able to "Beem" the presumed excess energy to a location in orbit, for it to be of use.

A tall order, but perhaps someday.

As for a Earth or Super Earth that does not have so much atmosphere that the rocky core is covered by an ocean of some fluid, then it would perhaps not be that good of an energy source, but a source for robotic mining.  Also very futuristic.

But the Oort cloud is an interesting topic, since if humans were ever able to make a living there, then it would not be that fantastic to imagine them moving to the Oort cloud of another ajacent solar system, and such a solar system would not initially have to have a habitable planet to make it attractive to Oort cloud dwellers.

Obviously the same people who put chickens into pens where they cannot move to force them to lay more eggs have to be a concern in this technology.  There are always those who see common humans as a resource to exploit.  That is the negitive.

However, there could be a positive, which would extend the abilities (And as Sarkoy indicated the potential for insanity) for humans.  I tend to believe that people should contribute, they also should be given opportunity for autonomy and self determination.  I believe that this is more or less where the creativity lies, and creativity is at the heart of adaptation.  If the world outside of humans only changes slowly, the world as affected by humans changes much faster, and the key to survival is adaptation.  Efficiency (Chickens in chains) only leads to dead ends.

So this technology since it will not be likely to go away, can be used to extend human abilities, where a cyborg more suitable for alien environments could be developed and used as an "Avatar", to extend the spectrum of "Human" experiences, and the ability to manipulate material goods for life support (Wealth).  However, moral thinking is required.  To cause suffering would be wrong, and I actually believe that anything founded on cruelty must eventually fall.

So for my opionion I would say the brain of this thing must be more or less cybernetic, and not actually self aware when not connected to a human mind.

It is why I don't believe in a "Snowball" Earth.

Should the Earth go into such a proposed lockup, even if very cold, as long as sublimination was in operation, a postive feedback would occur in certain locations where the temperatures were warmer than other locations.  Even where liquid water is not possible.

The warm areas would loose lce and snow to the atmosphere as vapors, the even slightly colder areas would accumulate that as precipitation of frost and snow.

The topography would become uneaven.  The Earth taken out to the Asteroid belt in my opinion would have continents covered in ice, and ocean basins where such holes would occur at the equator.  The ultimate hole would be Marriana trench, is it 20,000 plus feet below the surace of the ocean?  (I am not so interested in precise numbers, for hypothetical worlds, fuzzy thinking will work).

So, imagine sublimation digging those holes in a frozen ocean  (The Earth suddenly in the Asteroid belt, with perhaps 25 % of the current solar lighting).  Having an atmosphere, sublimation must occur.  (Ceres only can hold ice it is presumed because of a layer of soil).

The positive feedback would cause any hole created by sublimation to go even deeper down to bedrock, because the deeper the hole, the more atmosphere above it and the warmer the greenhouse effect.

And by the way, thanks for the reply.

The negitive feedback to the above is that glaciers would try to close those holes.

Also consider the Antarctic dry valleys.  Exactly what I have said above.  And in those cases it also is observed that wind can sweep snow out of the depressions.  Even more catabatic winds can descend into the valleys, and warm up from compression, and so become extreemly dry and so sublimate off the snow and frost that developes there.

It is in effect the "Desert" of a extreemly glaciated ice planet.  By this method a habitate which is capable of supporting greater life is experienced.  The dry valleys, do allow nematodes in the soil, and micobes in solar heated ice covered lakes.  If the ice layer were twice as deep, and such a hole were dug, perhaps an environment supporting a desert type tundra would be possible, and go further, perhaps even tiaga with trees.

If a hole existed in our oceans (Frozen), then at the bottom of that hole would be a habitat with an additional 10,000, 20,000, 25,000 feet of atmosphere for greenhouse effect.

It brings up another curiousity.  I think that during the ice age, when the oceans were maybe 200 feet lower, the humans living on the seashore would have had a better oxygen supply to breath, with a slighly more dense atmosphere at those locations.  Such places close to the shores might have been warmer, and also had more shielding from UV and other radiation.

Fair enough Terraformer, that's another option.  If you can maintain such a rotation of persons, then you have it.

I had some further thoughts.

Such worlds might come in a variety of types. 

Actually like Neptune,  or like an Earth with a thick atmpsphere with a bottom pressure such as at the bottom of the Ocean, and a continum between the two extreems.

I base this on other peoples speculation that a Rogue Earth tossed out of the solar system would freeze up and then would accumulate a very insulating layer of Hydrogen and Helium, and would have a pressure like the bottom of the ocean.  So much insulation that geothermal heat would be able to allow for liquid water on the surace in some cases.

Such a world as that would indeed allow mining of the surface, and perhaps some strange type of farming, either by induced lighting or by chemicals.
Of course robots would be in use.  At that end of the spectrum, however there would not be much wind to harvest energy from.

I suppose something that has an even denser atmosphere (But not as much as Neptune), might have a red hot surface, but no methane oceans, and the water would exist as vapors.  Not impossible to mine, and in that case perhaps an energy source.

I could find use for such planning.  It is good.

RobertDyck said:

I like your variation, and hope that you will continue to persue it.

We are not required to reach a concensus at this time so it is great that each person makes their own variation/s.

I will study yours again, more.

Anchored cables are a interesting notion.  I see that you are concerned for warmpth.  It will depend what is desired, on what design is implemeted.

However we are mutual on the double shell.  I confess, that my notions do not yet converge with real work from NASA, which is a count against them.  In time, I may move towards convergence towards what you have communicated.

But as I have said before, I visualize a toolbox, and at this time the more tools to select from the better.  Later, when a real mission/implementation of habitation occurs, the selected tools used will need to be the ones that fit the situation on the ground the best.  Pride will have no place in that, just ability to survive/prosper.

I absolutely support your variation, and hope you will continue to innovate on it.

My variation, supposes a giant bottle with another bottle inside of it.  Perhaps like a beefed up bottle for carbonated beverages.  I imagine it to have corrugations around the circumference of the curve, and that in the valley's of each corrugation, a tension band can be tightend to add great strength.  A crude illustration is the metal bands around a barrel.

Of course those bands will have to be tightened with some calibrated means, to be optimal.

Now the water jacket has some favorable properties.  Radiation protection, which has been explained as not needed so much for plants, but if a 330 mb or greater pressure is possible, then it might be a place where humans can and will like to be, so radiation protection has value for that purpose.

Heat:

I have seen articles that indicate that for greenhouses on Mars, overheating will be a problem.  If you use mirrors to move the average levels of light up to Earth normal, then it will be even worse.  However if you have a water jacket, that can store cold from night radiation in the water, which will help. 

Further there is the option of evaporative cooling with the generation of distilled water, which could be valuable.  Either evaporation from a suface of duckweed, or if you like boiling water at the boiling point at 1/16 bar, and then of course having radiators to condense the boiled vapors.  This will cool the whole apparatus.

Or there is the option of pumping the heated water out and cooling that in a radiator, perhaps in a dwelling where a reservoir would hold enough heated water to keep dwellings warm through the night.

I am very interested in aquaculture inside of the inner shell as well. 

You are taking a dryer path.

Lets continue.

OK, reply's appreciated.

May I suggest a different "3D" printer.  I observed a paper wasp making a nest a long time ago.  Reguratating the paper, and with pinching mouth parts, it made a wall from paper, adding to it.  I am thinking of a robotic "Extruder" functioning with some characteristics like a 3D printer.

Usually an "Extruder" must have dimensions similar in cross section to the part it is making.  However such a system as described above might be able to make parts that are 3D larger than itself.  I will elaborate some time later.

Later:

I will explain later, the picture is rather small, but I am thinking of spherical, Torus, or linear versions of this cross section.

A double shell.  The outer shell has a small air pocket at the top, but is otherwise filled with water and the inner shell.

The inner shell is filled with air and at the bottom of it soil.

Radiation protection.  Temperature moderation.  A combination of tensile strength and hydrostatic pressure to compress the inner shell to a higher pressure than the interior of the outer shell.  Outer shell 1/16 bar?  Inner shell 330 mb?

I have borrowed the side mirrors and other notions from you guys.

I will explain the other features that could make it stronger later along with what I think it could accomplish.

Later:

I would like to see a reduction in the number of "Joins" in a pressure shell.  In the end there must be some though.

So I am thinking that being able to develop a "Extruder-3D-Robotic" system might be able to do this similar to how a paper wasp makes its nest.

Although I have drawn the two shells as circular, they do not have to be restricted to that.

As for the outer shell, I think that after it was formed, tension bands could be wrapped around it to give it greater strength.
Metal straps, or cables, or tethers.  If people can contemplate space elivators, I am guessing that they could come up with some super strong tension straps that would not block much light.

The outside of the inner shell would be immersed in water, so the selection of such tensioning devices will be limited to a smaller spectrum of possible materials.

I envision several different modes of use:
1) Just using the outer shell and the mirror suggested here by others, you then have a low pressure boiler, and a potential source of steam to condense into distilled water, for industrial and other uses.

2) Aquatic weeds and fastened algae.  I have seen the discussions on how reduced pressures cause increased evaporation from land plants, and I have also read that even if supplied with all the water they might need, they still go into drought mode.  I am thinking that aquatic weeds, and algaes submerged continually in water will not do this.  This scheme could work with just the outer shell, or with the outer shell sterile (No disolved gasses, no nutrients), and using an inner shell to achive higher pressures, and filling the inner shell with water also, and making those waters fertile.

3) Using both shells, it would be possible to have a floating plant like duckweed in the air space of the outer shell.  I don't know it's potential to grow at 1/16 bars, but of course I just picked that pressure out of the air.  Perhaps the outer shell if propperly re-enforced could have higher pressures.  The duck weed should be able to be havested by a suction device.
If the light for the inner shell comes in from the sides from mirrors, then the duckweed would not be a shading problem for the plants in the inner shell which could be aquatic or dry land.  Of course if there is growing duckweed, there will be problems with microorganisms attaching to all inner surfaces of the outer shell and blocking light.  This could be addressed with snails to a degree, or some fish that might be able to survive those conditions that likes to feed on algae on solid surfaces.  Or a mechanical robot might serve as a cleaner.

It is to be noted that the inner shell is not only pressurized by tensile strength of the two shells, but by the hydrostatic pressure of the water in the outer shell bearing down on it.

As for using rigolith to bear down on parts of the dome, that is not out of the question either. 

I do not see what I have presented as a set of ideas as in any way nullifying the value of the other schemes previously presented by others, I simply want to add a additional set of options.  Mars may not be a one size fits all solution.  Perhaps any of the listed notions can be used for a best purpose at certain times or places depending on the state of developement and also the further advancements of technology, which is not allways predictable.

If it can be done effectively the various greenhouses including the Mushroom and the long ones would be attractive.

I found this:

http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws … news/52857

Mars having a dominantly CO2 atmosphere, it attracts me.  However, you are still stuck with generating Hydrogen from water.

But would acrylics be useful for building such greenhouses?  I am thinking 3D printer for the build, and also maybe for patching leaks.

Someone took me to task who understood the chemestry of plastics, and said that I/we do not have a source for such, but the above suggests that it may be a method to obtain what is needed to build structures.

Perhaps in time a robotic system with 3D printers might partially build such structures on a massive scale in suitable locations on Mars.

Then reflectors and perhaps rigolith as balast to help add counterforce.

Although I tilt towards wanting some type of hardy weed to grow at a partial pressure quite low, I can see that if accomplished, and if structurally reliable, it would be great to have greenhouses that could grow normal crops, and allow shirtsleeve human presence.