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#8726 Re: Terraformation » Interstellar Terraformation » 2012-02-19 19:19:56
I would like to add that once upon a time I read a Sci Fi where mining was done on the moon to very deep debths, by filling the mine shaft with mineral oil so that it would not collapse. I am not reccommending that, but at some point, I have suggested something similar, in a post that I since put in my archives.
For an ice moon or planet with a thick ice layer, melting a hole is not a great option, as the water is heavier than the ice, and the water column would sag, and I think the shaft would be unstable.
If you make a shaft filled with air, then that is also going to be at risk of collapse.
You might consider some very strong metal lining, but while that is an OK thing, for thick shells, I reccommend an oil fill, where the average weight of the oil is equal in specific gravity to the ice shell. In this way the shaft could stay open, and also would not be as inclined to freeze shut.
Crafts moving up and down the shaft would most likely be like gear railroads, but verticle, gripping the shaft walls which could indeed be metal lined.
Just a suggestion.
Reaching the liquid ocean there may be some energy and mineral asset made accessable by such methods.
Void.
#8727 Re: Human missions » Space X to Lead Mars Consortium? » 2012-02-19 10:53:09
Well this would be a side note on a possible technique, but funny you should mention Antarctica, but then again it is approximately the same process isn't it.
Method to inhabit Antarctica, and perhaps the Polar areas of Mars.
http://www.outerspaceplace.blogspot.com … enses.html
http://www.outerspaceplace.blogspot.com … lense.html
http://www.outerspaceplace.blogspot.com … solar.html
http://www.outerspaceplace.blogspot.com … lense.html
As I said a side note. And certainly other mehods of inhabiting Mars are not excluded.
#8728 Re: Terraformation » Interstellar Terraformation » 2012-02-19 06:02:19
Well you are not wrong, in the end that is the end.
However the Spin of Jupiter and the tides of Jupiter have to be kept in mind. In effect with Io erupts a volcano, and also has lakes of molten sulphur or magma on the surface, it is radiating heat to the cold universe, energy which was previously stored in the spin of Jupiter.
Jupiters tides keep trying to push Io and Europa into higher orbits, but the gravitational interactions of the two moons, keeps converting that spin/push from Jupiter into heated interiors, and they both radiate that heat ultimately into the universe.
Everything as we concieve it in terms of Energy and Matter has it's time limit.
However so called western civilization (Or any known civilization) is not more than 2000 or if you like 10,000 years old.
Anyway, I do share your concern to a degree, I was thinking of a collection of inhabitants at such a location of perhaps 5000 people. Just a first settlement of the Jupiter system. The advantages being that it is a convenient place to get energy, a convenient place to generate 1 gee simulated gravitation with spinning habitats, and also proximate to a moon, Callisto, which can supply ices and minerals, and also it is not too deep in the radiation belt of Jupiter.
So, if the Jupiter system were to become habitated in general, this would be a very good place to "Ignite" the fires of habitation. How much inertial energy would be consumed would have to be determined by any such inhabitants.
If they could dampen the radiation belts (A Russian proposed a way to eject the particles from the magnetic field of Jupiter, and make it safer), then they could access IO, and turn it into a power plant (Intecept the energy being radiated anyway).
Also there may be Fusion later.
Further, I understand that using new solar cells energy of that type is available. That could be improved with Solar concentrators.
So, I am just saying that the Jupiter system looks very lucrative to me. And of course I would do hollow ice worlds as well.
#8729 Re: Human missions » Space X to Lead Mars Consortium? » 2012-02-18 20:44:53
So I don't own Mars?
Well the logic is correct. Nations are not likely to build up a "Territory" which they cannot in any practicle way own.
That is the problem with Mars. With the Moon, we are getting to the point where a nation could "Own" a facility on the Moon, but of course there is the question of how do you get "Licenced" to extract a resource from the Moon.
For Mars, I think that the granting of an estate with the provision of the requirement that you do certain things to access, occupy and develop it is a good notion.
However, you are most likely correct that politicians world wide have worked to keep their slaves from escaping into space beyond their grasp of control.
However, the planetary culture could be modified to accomodate this type of financing. It is too early to tell.
I guess the US could issue such bonds, but I am guessing that the ownership rights would be disputed.
#8730 Re: Human missions » Space X to Lead Mars Consortium? » 2012-02-18 16:00:55
I feel that something like that could become the real thing. Good.
#8731 Re: Terraformation » Interstellar Terraformation » 2012-02-18 15:50:02
Hi Terraformer. LTNS
That seems like a interesting notion. Curious, I was just thinking about harnessing the energy in a lagrangian point of Callisto, the moon of Jupiter. So, parallel paths I guess.
In that case, I was hoping that the inerita of that moon could oppose the spinning magnetic field of Jupiter, so that coils could harness that differential motion. This could of course be used to good effect in a Brown Dwarf solar system, and also just possibly if their is an object in the Oort cloud with a magnetic field and moons. My only concern is that it might not be possible to keep the coils in the Lagrangian point, some are unstable, and of course in any case if you put too much magnetic drag on the system, it will be dragged out of that point, and will then not be coupled with Callisto's graviational well, so then not able to use it's inertia.
I don't totally grasp how your notion works to harness the energy, but I expect that your notions are sensible. I will look them over further.
Of course in such a case I am a hollow planet nut. The reason being that a shell hundeds of miles thick is good protection from the harsh nature of space out there. Then also, the gravitational effects would be nullified in the cernter of this hollow object, so you could have "Metal Artificial World Machines" there, which would spin and produce artificial graviation of Earth normal if that was desired. You could fly inside of the hollow world, if you had wings, and it contained an atmosphere. And of course my plan leaves behind Pluto, less a bunch of excess ice, so that you may do the terraform thing to it should you desire.
#8732 Re: Terraformation » Interstellar Terraformation » 2012-02-17 18:41:14
That is very exciting!
I cannot resist an attempt to talk on this subject.
So, in that case, be it true as much as they say, we might want to more learn to access a resource more proximate to our location than to so much try to directly go to another star.
Once upon a time I was AjaxWoji somewhere. Here I think I was someone else. I forget. Anyway, I did suggest that such worlds, could be mined for their ice, and from the ice and fibers of minerals, could be created substance strong, to use in the construction of hollow worlds. The inner lining could be of an insulation material. Inside of the hollow shell could be an atmosphere, and at the center spinning vessels to generate artificial gravity.
That is not to say that the objects themselves would be ignored, but typically they would be covered in ices, and to be efficient, the ice being removed to expose the rocky core, could be recycled to provide hollow shell worlds.
This all presumes that some type of fusion power, or some unknown power source could be utilized by the civilization preforming this "Terraforming" process. (Approximate notion).
I like Ice as a construction material www.outerspaceplace.blogspot.com
Void
#8733 Re: Terraformation » Impractical way to cool Venusian Atmosphere. » 2012-02-11 17:15:27
Part I:
Suppose the people live in orbit around Venus.
Suppose they can microwave the upper atmosphere, and make it swell.
If It becomes Plasma Then
It may be magnetic
If it is magnetic then
It may be collectible by electromagnetic system, enriching the population in orbit
Else
Let the solar wind drag it off
End If
End If
Perhaps a hollow cylinder 1 Mile (A silly number choice) in diameter, and reaching upwards to reasonable temperatures. Floors in the cylinder, partitioning it. Mixtures of gasses in the partitions, suitable to maintain neutral boyancy as needed. The bottom end of the cylinder anchored to the ground. The top end as a landing pad.
Thus humans present in workshops.
Robots in potected "Sheds" on the surface, where inside the conditions would be improved to make their functioning possible. Robots with new technology for very high temperatures. Mining underground from those sheds, and yes refrigeration. Electric power from wind or orbital microwave.
As always Sulphuric Acid is public enemy #1. Could it be altered chemically, by;
-Laser it from above or
-Microwave it from above or
-Drop chemicals into it or
-Enhance to possiblity of Ozone in it's Oxygen layer by putting something there to remove the Chlorine
?
Also, the winds would be very hard on any structure anchored on the ground, but perhaps if there is any wind it is a powerful energy source to refrigerate robots.
Part II:
From the above method my next attempt would be more cylinders, and then a floating covering over the whole planet, somewhere midway in the atmospheric column, and then once that is compete, begin removing CO2 from the atmosphere above it, and injecting it below, and begin removeing Nitrogen from below to put above. Then add Oxygen to the part above.
Extremely reflective of course.
I am calling upon new technologies to accomplish this of course super strong "Nano Materials".
Note: If it could be done, then this could create a shell in the atmosphere which could be walked on by light robots, and in places by humans. Supposing that it were possible to remove atmosphere by the methods in part I, then continually the atmospheric conditions would change, and the plan would have to adjust to that.
It would depend on the desires of the inhabitants. Perhaps they could simply keep re-enforcing their floating platform, and be satisfied to have a thick CO2 atmosphere below and a N2/O2 atmosphere above it. With reflectance and a lack of cloud cover, eventually that which is below would be cool also. One thing limiting this idea is you could not aford to have much water vapor in the atmosphere above, or it would condense on the night side.
C02 might become a problem as well, if the platform got too cold. That would not be a problem until the atmosphere below the platform cooled off.
This whole notion is of course far fetched, but as far as I can see so are pretty much any other notions of working with Venus. Far fetched does not mean impossible.
**NOTE: I can seldom log on to this place. I log on, and it says I have logged in and then it says I am not logged in. Not today though.
#8734 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-01-27 19:19:44
Hi,
I would like to suggest that a first step to modification of Venus would be to estabilish a civilization on Mercury.
I don't expect that there can be any notion of making Mercury Earth like, but it already is somewhat Moon like.
Whatever capabilities it takes to make a living on the Moon, are likely to be adaptible to Mercury.
And Mercury it seems likely has many metalic resources. It is also speculated that it has Volitile substances at the poles, and perhaps even vents that exhaust gasses.
The notion is that any such population on Mercury, might spend a lot of time sending metals to various locations in the solar system by solar sailing. The could make a solar sail robot, and launch it with a linear accelerator, and then that robot could fly to various locations, typically impacting such a location, where the metals are wanted.
Titan, Pluto, Ceres, or others.
In the case of Venus, if the Mercurians were granted ownership of Venus, and were given premission to alter the planet to make it more useful, then they could fly those metalic robots to Venus to impact, and of course disintigrate, and the metal residue to react with the Sulphuric Acid, modifying the PH of the Venus atmosphere, and making that environment more suitable to floating houses, Microbes, and Aircraft.
Of course the incentive for the Mercurians to do this work as I said would be some type of estate granted to them for that service. They could then sell that estate to Earthlings for instance. (Mercurians would be Earthlings of course also).