New Mars Forums

I agree--the Mars Society really shouldn't be promoting the idea of "claimable land" even before anyone goes there...I'll make sure they hear my opinion about this when I go to the Convention in August.

Mars should be treated as a place that's just there, and any part of Mars that is not in current use by settlers should be kept free and open for exploration and study by anyone, and when it comes to utilizing resources, (aquifers and the like), the principle of "first come, first served" should be used.  Considering that Mars has a land area equivilent to all the land here on Earth--I think there'll be enough to go around for a very long time...

B

The way space law is written now, there is no way to claim any extraterrestial body, although there's various "organizations" on the web that keep track of so-called "claims."  I think what the Mars Society is doing to give their members 'more bang for the buck,' by passing out these 1-acre "certificates"...if that thing were to be passed down through the generations and actually taken to Mars, I seriously doubt one would be able to actually lay claim to that land.

I think what will happen on Mars is that only land that is physically occupied would be under "ownership," like the area under a dome and surrounding anxillary facilities.  There's no way someone will be able to come along and actually claim Olympus or Mariner...who's going to go there and fence it off, for one thing?...lol.

I would just treat that "certificate" as a conversation piece, as that's all it'll ever be good for...

B

I've just thought of a new topic...the role of money and economics on human-inhabited Mars.  KSR brought up some interesting ideas in his Mars books, like a "gift" economy, in which people bargain by "gifting", instead of spending.

What do you guys think what will happen on Mars?  A similar monetary system like we have here on Earth, or something radically different like KSR suggested?  How will early Martian settlements establish a common system of value so people can buy, sell or trade goods and services?

One thing I've thought about this subject, is somehow tying the value of money to units of time, i.e., 1 hour = 10 credits.  I'm not sure how it would work, but I've seen an example of this in Ithaca, NY, called "Ithaca Hours," in which people trade their time for services by exchanging scripts.  That would ensure everyone's time is valued equally, especially when it comes to taxation, as everyone could pay their taxes/common dues with their time instead of dollars...with everyone paying the same amount by putting in the same number of hours(wouldn't that be a novel idea!?!)

Of course, this system would only work if everyone works at their best, and I'm certain that various bonus and incentive programs would have to be put in place to encourage everyone to produce more.  What I don't want to see is a class of managers and politicians taking over the show and sitting on their butts, doing little or nothing, raking in the cash, while the "peons" slave for minute sums of money. (sound familiar??)  The people that work the hardest should make the most money, not the other way around...let's hope the Martians get this part right! 

B

Sure it's possible...but the question to ask is, is it practical?  People have proposed powersats in space for decades, since it's not such a "difficult" task to render solar energy into the form of microwaves and beam it down to a receiving array on the surface.

The biggest barrier is, of course, the tremendous cost of ANY space enterprise, but another consideration is public opposition to microwave energy being beamed down from space...what if the powersat shifted slightly, and all those microwaves accidently cooked a city or whatever. ??? That gruesome possibility may very well be the show-stopper for LEO microwave powersats; however, on Mars, it could be an entirely different story. 

Since there won't be any cheap carbon-based fuels to burn on Mars, solar and nuclear (and hopefully geothermal) energy will be the way to go on Mars, and if the initial infrastructure of mirrors and collectors could be financed and constructed, it would greatly reduce the amount of energy that would have to be produced on the surface through the use of nuclear power plants or whatever.  Just keep in mind that it's always going to be more costly to build anything in space as opposed to on the ground (even the Martian surface). 

B

I agree with you on this one...it would be foolish for humankind to ignore the possibility of drastic and sudden climatic change.  There is a good deal of evidence that the climate has "flip-flopped" in the past, and there is no reason to suspect that it won't happen again in the future.  The book Skepical Environmentalist makes some strong arguments that humanity will always be able to take care of itself, but I think this book is based on too many optimistic assumptions.  Just because one is having a good winning streak at the gaming tables doesn't mean that the good luck will continue.  Modern civilization needs an insurance policy, and Mars is our best best at this point in history.  At the very least, our greatly expanded knowledge of climate systems on another world should give us a much better understanding of what to expect here on Earth..and maybe do something about it before it's too late...

B

Lightning on Mars?  That's something I've never heard of.  Also, I don't think hydrogen burns without an oxidizer present(oxygen,) so I we would be O.K. on that front.  Theoretically, hydrogen-filled dirigibles would be safe on Earth if proper safeguards were taken (like grounding rods, etc)...If the Hindenburg had never blown up, chances are we'd still have giant hydrogen airships flying around today.

Another thing I realized, too, is that CO2 is a "heavy" gas, so the fact that Mars' atmosphere is made almost entirely of this gas should increase the buoyancy of a hydrogen-filled craft (especially if it was heated, like a hot-air ballon).  Even so, they would have to be much bigger than equivalent craft here on Earth, just perhaps not quite as huge as you mentioned.

B

P.S.  Three cheers to the Germans for sending a balloon craft to Mars...imagine the pics we'll get from a mission like that!!

Bradguth, in case you haven't realized it, this is a forum called "New Mars," and we like to discuss anything to do with Mars...hmmm...  What IS your fixation with Venus, anyway???  It's nothing but a ***hole, and your ideas of *intelligent* life down there, quite frankly, are quite a bit more outlandish than the so-called "features" of Cydonia, which I think is a bunch of crap as well. 

I would suggest you take your so-called "ideas" to another forum...because I really don't think anyone here is taking you seriously at ALL...

Thanks,

B

Here's something I've thought of a few times...Martian architecture, particularily when the settlers have progressed to the point of having large-scale (1km and up) domes or after terraformation. 

I believe the low gravity on Mars will allow forms of building construction that would never be seen on Earth.  I think we would see lofty, flimsy-looking buildings, with free-floating terraces all over the place.  Inside a hypothetical 5 km wide, 1 km tall dome, I don't see why much of the vertical space couldn't be used for maximum benefit, and buildings could be hung down from the dome itself with nanotube cables, as the air pressure would be pushing up on it anyway.

This would eliminate the trouble of constructing foundations, load-bearing walls, etc, all the things that make houses and buildings such expensive endeavors on Earth.  Heck, inside the domes, you wouldn't really need roofs, except for where privacy is needed, of course.  Things like office and other commercial spaces could really just be a series of suspended, terraced slabs with glass walls all around, connected by a system of walkways.  This would save on ventilation, lighting, etc, reducing the total amount of energy needed to sustain the community.

The possibilities of Martian architecture are endless...what do you guys think??

B

I highly disagree.  I think sports and organized activities of a physical nature will be an integral part of the Mars pioneers' lives.  Due to the low gee, exercise will be an essential part of the settler's lives, and yes, they will be working hard, but recreation is vitally important to sustaining a balanced, healthy lifestyle.  The low gravity will also make athletic activity that much more accessible to people, i.e., even a total klutz like me would be able to perform diving and gymnastics and the like in the .38 gee of Mars..lol. 

Once the early pioneers get past the initial hurtles of providing themselves with air, water, and food; sports will be a big thing on Mars...the low gravity will prove to be irresistible 

B

Here's my two cents on this issue...if a northern ocean is indeed created, I imagine the bio-engineers would introduce specially adapted lower-level lifeforms at first to cope with the harsh initial conditions, and this in turn, should stablilize the ocean enough to introduce higher level lifeforms (Martian sharks, anyone?? just kidding..lol)

As for keeping Oceanus Borealis ice-free for the most part, I think this would be acomplished by giant mirrors over the North Pole to redirect the sun's energy onto the northern hemisphere to keep it from freezing over.  I did read Shaun's post in another forum about pumping up the average global temperature on Mars to something like 20-25 C...and I do have to take issue with this idea of such a high temperature on Mars.  I live in South Florida (a place where summer never ends...), and believe me when I say the Earth, currently at 15 C, is too hot as it is...   I may be biased in saying this, but I really relish the idea of Mars being cooler than Earth, even after terraforming.

If Mars was five degrees C (nine degrees F) hotter than the Earth is now (if that was even achievable), I can't imagine how hot it would be in the equatorial regions of Mars, or in the Southern Hemispheric summer, when the planet is so much closer to the sun then.

In my humble opinion, Mars will always be colder and dryer than Earth, and that's the way it should be.  Even if Mars was around 280 degrees K (a reasonable terraforming goal, I think) we should be able to keep the northern ocean ice-free below 60 degress of latitude thoughout most of the year, esp. with help from the mirrors I mentioned above.  Also, keeping the "sea level" at a low level, around 2k below the "datum," (where the air is thicker and warmer) would also assist in keeping the ocean warm enough to stay above freezing, although the rest of the planet would still be a bit chilly by Earth standards.

B

For the most part, I agree with Shaun, in that using a rail gun would not be be practical for human use, due to the high accelerations involved (although, if proper chairs and g-suits are used, people can stand up to 8 gees, although anything over a minute would be pushing it..lol.)

I was envisioning using the mass driver just for cargo containers that could withstand super-high accelerations, so the rail would only have to be 20-30 km long, 50 at the most.  The thing about atmospheric drag bothers me too, but I was hoping a way could be found to overcome that, perhaps by plasma shielding of some sort to enable the container to "slip" through the upper atmosphere with a minimum of drag.  I can't imagine that a mere 1 mb of pressure would be a show-stopper for the rail gun concept, but I guess you would have to build in a bit of extra speed to overcome the drag (20-40% more??)

Also, is a delta-v of 5 km/s is all you need to get all the way from Mars to Earth?  I was thinking it was something on the order of 11 km/s, but perhaps I stand to be corrected. 

B

The free market works so well here on Earth because of the long-established systems of economic interdependence and large, diverse populations we have here.  In the early days of Mars settlement, I don't think you'd be able to eschew planning and leave it up to 'speculators' and other free-marketers to maintain a constant supply of food.  What works for us here on Earth won't apply on the Martian frontier.

For one thing, imagine if in a domed settlement, of let's say 2500 people, they had 4 years of good crops, and then on the fifth year, a global duststorm greatly reduces crop yields, not just that particular settlement, but all over Mars.  The price of food would soar, and unless a LOT of food was put away by the free-marketers, the price of food would likely rise beyond the reach of affordability and most likely cause a revolt.  There would be no way the majority of the people in the dome would put up with a few among them taking advantage of the food shortage to get rich, while people are still going hungry because they don't have the money to buy the food that's still available.

A much more sensible plan would be to figure out the long-range production of food, taking into account potential disasters such as power failures, dust storms, etc; like insurance companies do here on Earth, to make sure you have enough of a surplus each year to make up for potential shortfalls.  Since this surplus would be maintained by a central, publicly-controlled authority, prices could be kept at affordable levels, although prices would have to rise to a certain extent during time of low yields to keep demand in check (and encourage people to pitch in to grow more food!)

Chances are, the Martian settlement would produce more food than needed, but I think all of us can agree it's best to have too much rather than too little when it comes to food. 

I have the feeling that Martian farmers will be among the highest-regarded members of society...after all, your life would be in their hands..lol..this goes for the people that make the air for the domes, etc...

B