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#726 Re: Meta New Mars » Spammer » 2012-08-02 03:30:27

SpaceNut wrote:

The latest in drug crazed spammers frederic37b
http://www.newmars.com/forums/profile.php?id=3499

  lol!

     Bob Clark

#727 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Reusable Rockets to Orbit » 2012-07-31 17:52:33

RGClark wrote:

...
So I'll assume for this SSTO version of the Falcon 9 v1.1 the mass ratio is 30 to 1, which makes the dry mass 13 mT. Then this version can lift 6.7 mT to LEO:

311*9.81ln(1 + 375/(13 + 6.7))

  Bob Clark

I didn't include the answer to that last calculation:

311*9.81ln(1 + 375/(13 + 6.7)) = 9,145 m/s.

Dr. John Schilling has produced a payload estimation program:

Launch Vehicle Performance Calculator.
http://www.silverbirdastronautics.com/LVperform.html

It gives a range of likely values of the payload. I've found the midpoint of the range it specifies is a reasonably accurate estimate to the actual payload for known rockets.
Input the vacuum values for the thrust in kilonewtons and Isp in seconds. The program takes into account the sea level loss. SpaceX gives the Merlin 1D vacuum thrust as 161,000 lbs and vacuum Isp as 311 s:

FALCON 9 OVERVIEW.
http://www.spacex.com/falcon9.php

For the 9 Merlins this is a thrust of 9*161,000*4.46 = 6,460 kN. Use the default altitude of 185 km and the Cape Canaveral launch site, and a 28.5 degree orbital inclination, to match the Cape's latitude.
Input the dry mass of 13,000 kg and propellant mass of 375,000 kg. Then it gives an estimated 7,564 kg payload mass:

Launch Vehicle:      User-Defined Launch Vehicle
Launch Site:      Cape Canaveral / KSC
Destination Orbit:       185 x 185 km, 28 deg
Estimated Payload:       7564 kg
95% Confidence Interval:       3766 - 12191 kg


This may be enough to launch the Dragon capsule, depending on the mass of the Launch Abort System(LAS).


     Bob Clark

#728 Re: Human missions » Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000. » 2012-07-30 14:22:55

Elon Musk to Address Mars Society Convention in Pasadena
posted Jul 20, 2012 10:05 AM by Mars Society - PR

The Mars Society is very pleased to announce that SpaceX Founder and CEO Elon Musk will address the 15th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Pasadena, California, on Saturday, August 4th during the organization's evening banquet.
http://www.marssociety.org/home/press/a … inpasadena

  Bob Clark

#729 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Reusable Rockets to Orbit » 2012-07-26 14:40:59

RGClark wrote:

...
The first stage propellant load is given as 553,000 lbs, 250,000 kg, and the dry weight as 30,000 lbs, 13,600 kg. The Merlin 1C mass hasn't been released, but I'll estimate it as 650 kg, from its reported thrust and thrust/weight ratio. The Merlin 1D mass has been estimated to be 450 kg. Then on replacing the 1C with the 1D we save 9*200 = 1,800kg from the dry weight to bring it to 11,800 kg.
The required delta v to orbit is frequently estimated as 30,000 feet per second for kerosene-fueled vehicles, 9,144 m/s. When calculating the delta v your rocket can achieve, you can just use your engines vacuum Isp since the loss of Isp at sea level is taken into account in the 30,000 fps number. Then this version of the Falcon 9 first stage could lift 1,200 kg to orbit:

310*9.81ln(1 + 250/(11.8 + 1.2)) = 9,145 m/s.

Then the Falcon 9 first stage could serve as a proof of principle SSTO on the switch to the Merlin 1D.

I think we can probably do better than that first estimate of the Falcon 9 first stage with Merlin 1D's as a SSTO. The Merlin 1D has a 147,000 lb sea level thrust:

Modified Merlin engine completes full duration firing.
BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: June 25, 2012
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1206/25merlin1d/

The gross mass of the Falcon 9 first stage with the Merlin 1D's and a 1.2 mT payload would be 250 + 11.8 + 1.2 = 263 mT, 578,600 lbs. This could be lofted by just 4 of the Merlin 1D's. But the thrust would be just a little over the gross mass resulting in high gravity loss. So let's use 5 Merlins. Subtracting off 4 Merlins makes the dry mass 11,800 - 4*450 = 10,000 kg.
The number of 30,000 fps delta-v for LEO is assuming a T/W ratio common for liquid fueled rockets, in the range 1.1 to 1.2. With all 9 Merlins the T/W ratio would above 2.2. This would result in a much reduced gravity loss. So the required delta-v would be less than the 30,000 fps number, and so actually higher than 1.2 mT could be sent to LEO even in that case.
But let's look at the case of using 5 Merlins. SpaceX has given a vacuum Isp of the Merlin 1D as actually 311 s. Then we could send 3.1 mT to LEO:

311*9.81ln(1 + 250/(10 + 3.1)) = 9,152 m/s.

  SpaceX has said though they want to move to a larger version of the Falcon 9 called the Falcon 9 v1.1, in accordance with the Merlin 1D's larger thrust. The Falcon Heavy will use this version's first stage for its core stage and side boosters. SpaceX expects the Falcon 9 v1.1 to be ready by the end of the year.
Elon Musk has said the version 1.1 will be about 50% longer:

Q&A with SpaceX founder and chief designer Elon Musk.
BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: May 18, 2012
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/falcon9/003/120518musk/

I'll assume this is coming from 50% larger tanks. This puts the propellant load now at 375,000 kg. Interestingly SpaceX says the side boosters on the Falcon Heavy will have a 30 to 1 mass ratio. This improvement is probably coming from the fact it is using the lighter Merlin 1D engines, and because scaling up a rocket actually improves your mass ratio, and also not having to support the weight of an upper stage and heavy payload means it can be made lighter.
So I'll assume for this SSTO version of the Falcon 9 v1.1 the mass ratio is 30 to 1, which makes the dry mass 13 mT. Then this version can lift 6.7 mT to LEO:

311*9.81ln(1 + 375/(13 + 6.7))


  Bob Clark

#730 Re: Human missions » Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000. » 2012-07-23 08:51:08

Rxke wrote:

Where's Clark's comment?
Man, man, man, Elon having to talk to such dimwits again and again, he must be a very patient man!
Of course, the more he does these 'smalltalks' the more people see it, I guess, so it's a goooood thing! big_smile

SpaceX has mentioned "nuclear thermal" rockets for manned flights:

August 06, 2010
Spacex talks Falcon X Heavy for 125 tons of heavy lift and Falcon XX for 140 tons and Nuclear Thermal interplanetary Rockets.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/08/spacex … r-125.html


  Bob Clark

#731 Re: Human missions » Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000. » 2012-07-20 00:13:46

Just saw this interview of Elon Musk on NasaSpaceFlight:

Space X Heralds New Era of Travel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZqN7351Z30

He mentions manned flights to Mars. He says initially they will be 6 month flights, but eventually they will come down to under a month.


  Bob Clark

#732 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Reusable Rockets to Orbit » 2012-07-18 05:03:15

Hop wrote:

...
It seems to me one of the problems is achieving an FMR of 16:1 and having a spacecraft strong and temperature resistant enough to endure re-entry.
Watching Musk's Grasshopper video it looks like he hopes to use reaction mass to shed re-entry velocity in addition to aerobraking. If he hopes to achieve some re-entry delta V with propellant, this makes his FMR even more challenging. Get the FMR too high and you have a very tenuous, fragile vehicle even less able to endure re-entry. I'm not giving Musk's TSTO RLV even odds.
However, given propellant in orbit, I believe it's quite doable to decelerate the upper stage and land it intact on the launch pad. Thus I believe lunar supplied propellant depots would enable TSTO RLVs.

And not just TSTO's, and not just to orbit. But in fact SSTO's all the way to the Moon and back. It is a well known fact that if you have SSTO's, then with orbital refueling you can travel all the way to the Moon, land, lift off, and travel all the way back to Earth on that one single refueling. Another one of the many advantages of SSTO's. Note that this is not true for TSTO's whose second, orbital stage might get a delta v of, say, 6,000 m/s, insufficient for the round-trip to the Moon even with refueling in LEO.
I've been arguing that SSTO's are actually easy because how to achieve them is perfectly obvious: use the most weight optimized stages and most Isp efficient engines at the same time, i.e., optimize both components of the rocket equation. But I've recently found it's even easier than that! It turns out you don't even need the engines to be of particularly high efficiency.
SpaceX is moving rapidly towards testing its Grasshopper scaled-down version of a reusable Falcon 9 first stage:

Reusable rocket prototype almost ready for first liftoff.
BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: July 9, 2012
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1207/10grasshopper/

SpaceX deserves kudos for achieving a highly weight optimized Falcon 9 first stage at a 20 to 1 mass ratio. However, the Merlin 1C engine has an Isp no better than the engines we had in the early sixties at 304 s, and the Merlin 1D is only slightly better on the Isp scale at 310 s. This is well below the highest efficiency kerosene engines (Russian) we have now whose Isp's are in the 330's. So I thought that closed the door on the Falcon 9 first stage being SSTO.
However, I was surprised when I did the calculation that because of the Merlin 1D's lower weight the Falcon 9 first stage could indeed be SSTO. I'll use GW Johnson's estimates for the Falcon 9 specs here:

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 14, 2011
Reusability in Launch Rockets.
http://exrocketman.blogspot.com/2011/12 … ckets.html

The first stage propellant load is given as 553,000 lbs, 250,000 kg, and the dry weight as 30,000 lbs, 13,600 kg. The Merlin 1C mass hasn't been released, but I'll estimate it as 650 kg, from its reported thrust and thrust/weight ratio. The Merlin 1D mass has been estimated to be 450 kg. Then on replacing the 1C with the 1D we save 9*200 = 1,800kg from the dry weight to bring it to 11,800 kg.
The required delta v to orbit is frequently estimated as 30,000 feet per second for kerosene-fueled vehicles, 9,144 m/s. When calculating the delta v your rocket can achieve, you can just use your engines vacuum Isp since the loss of Isp at sea level is taken into account in the 30,000 fps number. Then this version of the Falcon 9 first stage could lift 1,200 kg to orbit:

310*9.81ln(1 + 250/(11.8 + 1.2)) = 9,145 m/s.

Then the Falcon 9 first stage could serve as a proof of principle SSTO on the switch to the Merlin 1D.


     Bob Clark

#733 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Reusable Rockets to Orbit » 2012-07-17 09:20:33

GW Johnson wrote:

Most of the aerodynamics data for forces was correlated to flat planar areas.  I'm guessing you are talking about dead-broadside return of these stages.  If so,  length x diameter is probably the reference area you want,  and the broadside drag coefficients for circular cylinders apply.  That stuff is a strong function of Mach between about 0.75M to about M3. 
Nice to see such low numbers.  That'll decelerate more,  higher up in the thinner air,  for sure.  Ride might be rougher,  just like a Piper Cub vs a jumbo jet.  I'd worry about air pressure crush as it decelerates through about M1 about 20,000 feet.  Structures that light are very flimsy.  Air pressure crush after entry was over is what broke up both Skylab and shuttle Columbia's cabin section. 
GW

Yes, I was wondering about the air pressure effects too. But there are a couple of factors that made it worse for those two examples you mentioned, and also for the Falcon 9 first stage which also falls apart on reentry.
The main one is that these spacecraft or stages were tumbling, which puts severe stress on the structure. The second is that these structures were so heavy they came down so rapidly that they reached high density air while still traveling very fast. However, for a very light structure for the wing area, the lift should be enough to make the descent much shallower so it will have burned off much of the speed when it gets down to the higher density air.
We could perhaps also add some strengthening members to resist the bending loads that would not add too much to the weight made of carbon composites materials. I saw this new carbon composite isotruss bicycle frame when searching on lightweight composites:

delta-7-3.png


That thing just looks like it would be light for the strength doesn't it?

I get now what you mean about a "rough ride" by your comparison of a Piper Cub to a jumbo jet. Perhaps the reaction control system could keep it stable considering its lightweight.


   Bob Clark

#734 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Reusable Rockets to Orbit » 2012-07-16 15:31:19

GW Johnson wrote:

Shuttle leading edges went to 3000 F and required carbon-carbon composite precisely because the wing loading (vehicle weight divided by wing planform area) was up around 1 or 2 hundred pounds per square foot,  just like a fighter jet,  and all the space capsules.  The white tiles on the sides and upper wing surfaces,  and the black ones on the belly and lower wing surface,  were low-density alumino-silicate,  with a solid phase change that causes cracking at 2300 F.  Those were restricted to peak 2000 F skin temperatures on the shuttle.  Carbon-carbon is weak enough structurally,  to be sure.  Those tiles were far more fragile yet. 
If the vehicle has a much larger aerosurface for its weight (low wing loading,  say 10-20 pounds per square foot),  peak skin temperatures reduce to under 2000 F,  although total heat to be absorbed and disposed of actually increases.  Skin temperature drives the material selection problem,  the other is handled fairly easily.  You will be decelerating at higher gees to make this happen.  Plus,  it's all a transient. 
Myself,  I rather like the idea of enduring a bit rougher ride in order to make my re-entry vehicle out of simple aluminosilicates,  perhaps even plain old fire curtain cloth on a steel tube frame.  I think it is very funny that the better,  less fragile reentry vehicle might actually be built similar to the venerable old Piper Cub of the 1930's. 
And,  low density ceramics should be fiber reinforced as ceramic-ceramic composites,  not that fragile stuff on the shuttle.  I have done this,  a quarter century ago.  They are still extremely low density,  yet fairly tough structurally.  Really tough compared to that fragile nonsense they flew on shuttle.  I used mine as a ramjet liner,  which survived hours of burn and hundreds of excursions into very violent rich-blowout instability.  The only reason I quit then was the project was done.  Could have gone on for many more hours. 
As it turns out,  the materials I used then are still available.  I checked just the other day. 
GW

Thanks for that info, GW. There might be rocket stages that have such low wing loadings. First, a question though. If the vehicle is cylindrical should you use half the cylindrical surface area, representing the windward side, to calculate the wing loading or use just the rectangular cross-sectional area?
I'll use the more optimistic half-cylinder surface area to give an example of a rocket stage with such a low wing loading. Take a look at this diagram of the proposed DIRECT teams HLV:

Jupiter-241 Heavy-Lunar Cargo Launch Vehicle Configuration.
http://directlauncher.org/documents/Bas … 090608.jpg

The DIRECT team proposed using both common bulkhead design and aluminum-lithium alloy on the upper stage to get a highly weight optimized stage. The upper stage has the diameter of the shuttle ET at 8.4 m, with a propellant load of 199 mT and a dry mass of 12.8 mT using a J-2X engine. The J-2X engine weighs about 2,470 kg.
Suppose we swap out this engine for 2 SSME's at about 3,200 kg. Then our dry weight will be about 16,000 kg, 35,000 lbs. I'll show in a following post this will be a SSTO. But first about the wing loading. The density of hydrolox is 360 kg/m^3. Then for a propellant load of 199,000 kg, this corresponds to a volume of 199,000/360 = 550 m^3. Using the formula for the volume of a cylinder V = Pi*r^2*L with the radius at 4.2 m, for a diameter of 8.4 m  we can calculate the length to be about 10 m. Then the half-cylinder surface area will be Pi*r*L = 130 m^2 = 1,400 sq.ft. Then the wing loading will be 35,000 lb/1,400sq.ft = 25 pounds per square foot. Fairly good but we can do better than that.
It turns out that for a given volume the cylinder side surface area gets larger as you make the radius smaller, which is what we want to get better wing loading. So let's take the diameter to be that of a Delta-IV at 5 m, but assume, unlike the Delta-IV, that we use common bulkhead design and aluminum-lithium alloy so that we keep our dry mass at the same low value of 16,000 kg, 35,000 lbs.
Note that the Delta-IV has about the same propellant load at 200 mT, but is not well weight optimized. But since the diameter of our new version is the same at 5 m, we could use the same tooling as used on the Delta-IV to produce this new weight-optimized, 2 SSME-powered version.
Again the volume is 550 m^3. We calculate now though the length for a 2.5 m radius to be 28 m. Then the half-cylinder surface area is 220 m^2 = 2,370 sq.ft. So the wing loading is 35,000 lb/2,370 = 15 pounds per square foot.

About the "rougher ride" at the lower wing loading, shouldn't the lighter weight at the same wing area allow you to get better lift resulting in lower gees?

Your post brought to mind some other possibilities that I'll discuss with you via email.

    Bob Clark

#735 Re: Life support systems » Get this amazing deal for a limited time only. » 2012-07-03 08:05:32

How is this better than the usual suit? It is not for EVA but just when you are sitting inside the space ship like the suits astronauts wear during shuttle launch.
A low cost, lightweight, flexible EVA suit would really be something to look forward to.

   Bob Clark

#736 Re: Unmanned probes » Low cost applications of the new spy scopes donated to NASA. » 2012-06-27 06:23:16

RGClark wrote:

Follow-up blog posts:

1.)Discussion of using the new Hubble-class scopes to search for nomad planets
and hypothesized large planets at the extreme fringe of the Solar System:

Low cost development and applications of the new NRO donated telescopes, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … ns_12.html

and:

2.)Discussion of using distributed computing to allow the public to take part
in the asteroid, new planet, and brown dwarf search:

Low cost development and applications of the new NRO donated telescopes, Page 3.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … ns_13.html

Planetary Resources, Inc. has asked for suggestions for getting
public involvement in their asteroid mining venture on their web site:

http://www.planetaryresources.com/2012/ … ckstarter/

The most common suggestions have been to use distributed computing or
crowd sourcing to find valuable asteroid targets.


    Bob Clark

#737 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-24 02:40:38

SpaceNut wrote:

Since we know that we are not able to deliver the large tonnage to the surface that is needed so why not make it smaller packaged so that we can do what we will need.

Actually, we don't "know" that. To be more precise, we don't know how to do it now, but that is not the same as saying we know we can't do it.
The research on this is ongoing and I think multiple solutions will be available near term.
However, I'm not opposed to multiple small deliveries to the surface. One question that needs to be solved is landing them nearby each other, minimizing the landing ellipse in the parlance of the current Mars robot landers. Actually, a proposed solution to the question of landing large payloads has an influence on this question as well.
That's using a high lift/drag ratio lander. One of the selling points of the space shuttle was its high cross-range, enabling more precise landings. A high L/D ratio Mars lander would reduce the need for a large area aerobrake while at the same time enabling more precise landings.


    Bob Clark

#738 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-24 02:22:42

Matthew Heins wrote:

Hi.
And lastly if anyone is curious, I am a recent reader of Zubrin's Case for Mars (etc.), a recent joiner of the Mars Society, and I am all for Mars Direct straight-up, or Semi-, or any further modification of these. I am okay with Dragon Direct, but I would really like to see a return to a true heavy booster and the big missions it would allow. I would say that these are -or will be when they find out about any of this- the typical opinions of the average person who will really make a MarsShot fly -the folks that pay for it.
"Back to where we turned wrong, then upwards!" is always a bigger seller than "Beyond the cutting edge technology" and "We can get by with less".
The only thing I would really change about Mars Direct or the Design Reference Mission is that (at latest by Mission 2 or 3) I would "double down"  on the whole thing and send a "Construction Crew" back to one of the previous landing sites, along with the "Exploration Crew" of the standard Zubrin/NASA missions.
I would say 1.5 - 3 years of surface time with decent capability is enough time to find Base-Building necessities near enough to the exploration landing sites to get on to building a more permanent and flexible set-up than the "habs" -especially since the initial landing sites should have been very well-selected using orbiter and robot lander data.
Anyway, hope to have many interesting talks in the future here (but also hope that the Society gets a forum going itself). smile

Welcome to the forum.

   Bob Clark

#739 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-23 02:13:25

RGClark wrote:
GW Johnson wrote:

"Lower heating if decelerating at higher up" is really lower peak skin temperatures at lower ballistic coefficient.  The total integrated BTU's (KW-hr) absorbed over the trajectory is actually higher in that case,  but that's an easier problem to solve than high skin temperatures.  Control of survivable gees is the real key to how this trajectory is selected. 
For a winged vehicle here on Earth,  a "ballistic coefficient" is better expressed as "wing loading",  which is vehicle weight divided by wing planform area.  To obtain the benefit of earlier deceleration higher up,  this needs to look more like a small light aircraft (10-20 lb/sq.ft) than the shuttle or a jet fighter (100-200 lb/sq.ft).  Peak skin temperatures are under 2000 F,  which ceramics,  or very,  very,  very heavily-cooled Inconel-X,  can survive.  Better odds on the ceramics.
For a space capsule here on Earth,  it is vehicle weight divided by heat shield broadside area.  This has typically been about 4 times the shuttle/jet fighter range (400-800 lb/sq.ft).  These vehicles punch very deep into the air before they slow significantly.  Peak skin temperatures (stagnation point,  leading edges) is around 3500-4000 F.  That's why Shuttle had ablative carbon-carbon leading edge and nose cap pieces,  and why Mercury,  Gemini,  Apollo,  and Dragon had/have ablative phenolic composite heat shields. 
PICA-X on Dragon (and the other new capsules) is actually nothing but a modernized version of the 1960-ish vintage silica-phenolic,  which is really nothing more than what the old capsules used in the 1960's and 1970's. 
Think about it:  if you can actually achieve such a low wing loading/ballistic coefficient (around 10-20 lb/sq.ft),  you could survive re-entry here on Earth (from orbit) with a steel truss "airframe" and a ceramic fire-curtain cloth skin,  as long as there was some sort of insulating standoff between the frame and the skin,  and some sort of ventilation inside to absorb the BTU's.  In other words,  a ceramic fabric-skinned variant of a Piper Cub might actually be a feasible re-entry vehicle from LEO.
Anything that might work here would work on Mars.  The heating there is less demanding.  I see some experiments that need to be done here!!!!
GW

Thanks for that. Your suggestion of getting a lightweight structure with high wing area, or equivalent, reminded me of the Lockheed X-33:

X-33.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/x33.htm

It was only to weigh 63,000 lbs dry, compared to the space shuttle orbiter at ca. 200,000 lbs. Note that the problem of the composite propellant tanks not holding up when pressurized would not be a problem here since we would remove them for this purpose. In fact this would make the weight even lighter. This page gives the total propellant tank weight as 15,200 lbs:

Marshall Space Flight Center
Lockheed Martin Skunk Works
Sept. 28, 1999
X-33 Program in the Midst of Final Testing and Validation of Key Components.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/x33.html

So conceivably the weight might be as low as 48,000 lbs, though actually the propellant tanks provided structural rigidity. So we would have to add some strengthening members if they were removed, but the extra weight would quite likely be much less than the 15,200 lbs of the tanks. The reference area for the X-33 is in the range of 1600 sq.ft. So if not too much added weight for strength was required for the tankless version, we might get a wing loading of 48,000 lbs/1600 sq.ft. = 30 lbs/sq.ft.
The volume you would get by removing the tanks on the X-33 is about 300 m^3, which is about the volume of the payload bay on the shuttle orbiter. So it could contain about the same volume as the Bigelow BA 330 inflatable habitat proposed for Mars missions or orbital or surface habitats.
...
  Bob Clark

Actually it would be even better than this. The X-33 had engines to liftoff from Earth fully fueled. For this purpose, these wouldn't be needed, or it would use much smaller engines just for landing the unfueled mass on Mars. The thrust for the X-33 given on the Astronautix page was 513,000 lbs.  vacuum. Reportedly the aerospike engines on the X-33 had a 40-to-1 T/W ratio. So their weight on the X-33 would be about 13,000 lbs. So the weight would be reduced to 35,000 lbs by removing them, and the wing loading to 35,000 lbs/1600 sq.ft = 22 lbs/sq.ft.
But another key factor would be the lift/drag ratio. For the X-33, the hypersonic L/D was about that of the space shuttle, in the range of 1 to 1.2. How does the L/D ratio affect the question of landing large masses on Mars?


  Bob Clark

#740 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-23 00:51:21

Remember the key problem is getting the large surface area for an aerobrake at low added mass. This should be doable by inflatable heat shields as are being investigated by NASA's Game Changing Technology office:

HIAD: Changing the Way We Explore Other Worlds.
617359main_hiad-entry-466x248.jpg

A giant cone of inner tubes assembled sort of like a child's stacking ring toy may some day help cargo, or even people, land on another planet, return to Earth or any destination with an atmosphere.
NASA calls the inflatable spacecraft technology Hypersonic Inflatable Aerodynamic Decelerator or HIAD, for short.
The HIAD could give NASA more options for future planetary missions, because it could allow spacecraft to carry larger, heavier scientific instruments and other tools for exploration.

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oct/game_ch … index.html


  Bob Clark

#741 Re: Interplanetary transportation » SpaceX Dragon spacecraft for low cost trips to the Moon. » 2012-06-21 19:12:44

This blog post shows the high mass ratio discussed in the "Low Cost HLV" blog post
is feasible by making a comparison to the Saturn S-IC stage:

MONDAY, MAY 7, 2012
Low Cost HLV, page 2: Comparison to the S-IC Stage.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … age-2.html

This blog post shows you can get an even higher mass ratio, close to 29 to 1,
by using modern materials and common bulkhead design. A mass ratio this high
makes possible a SSTO:

THURSDAY, JUNE 21, 2012
Low Cost HLV, page 3: Lightweighting the S-IC Stage.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … -s-ic.html


  Bob Clark

#742 Re: Human missions » Developing the cis-Lunar economy and infrastructure » 2012-06-19 10:09:46

Impaler wrote:

Here is the SpaceWorks study, the EML1 departure table is down on page 50, theirs also an mp3 of a presentation of the same study but it mostly discusses issues like propellant boil-off, mass fraction not the departure trajectories.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telec … r_5-16-12/


Thanks for that. It's discussed on pages 41,49, and 50. It is able to reduce a 4,400 m/s delta-v to 1,770 m/s this way, a reduction of 2,600 m/s.

I wonder if you can reduce higher delta-v trajectories also. For instance in this post I discussed reducing the outbound travel time to 70 days by using a ca. 8,800 m/s delta-v:

Re: Human missions » Developing the cis-Lunar economy and infrastructure » 2012-06-11 13:56:35.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 55#p113455

If you could reduce the delta-v down to to 6,100 m/s from 8,800 m/s, you could increase the payload in that calculation I gave by a factor of 2.5 from 6 mT to 15 mT.

   Bob Clark

#743 Re: Human missions » Developing the cis-Lunar economy and infrastructure » 2012-06-18 19:07:39

RobS wrote:

...
Lagrange points are useful if you are spiralling a lot of stuff slowly out of the Earth's gravitational well. They provide a region to park things. I wouldn't use solar ion propulsion if the latter uses xenon; currently xenon is worth more per ounce than gold. The world only produces a dozen tonnes of it per year. On the other hand, if one switches to argon, which is cheap, that problem is solved. Currently xenon is a practical propellant only when the launch cost to LEO is many thousands of dollars per pound. I'd favor development of solar thermal anyway; the technology has been tested on the ground, its thrust (up to 100 pounds currently) is much more than ion, the thrust can be "stored" up and used in a series of perigee kicks, and hydrogen boiloff isn't an issue because you're using your hydrogen supply for a few minutes every few hours.
...

I read that report cited by the supporters of asteroid mining about moving a 500 mT asteroid to lunar orbit:

Asteroid Retrieval Feasibility Study.
2 April 2012
http://kiss.caltech.edu/study/asteroid/ … report.pdf

The news report were all about the solar electric ion propulsion used and that perhaps it would cost $2.6 billion to develop. But I was surprised in the report that it also discussed doing it with LH2/LOX chemical propulsion and how little propellant it would use. First it notes that an asteroid such as 2008HU4 at closest approach would require only a 170 m/s (!) delta-v to bring it to lunar orbit. Then in figure 19 on p. 43 is given a comparison between the propellant required for LH2/LO2, N204/MMH, and SEP propulsion for this asteroid at an assumed 1,000 mT mass. Surprisingly, for the hydrogen case it is less then 40 mT for a 1,000 mT payload! This is because of course it is only a 170 m/s delta-v. But this means for the 500 mT case that was cited in the news reports it would be less than 20 mT propellant load, and a LH2/LOX propulsion stage this size is already available in the Centaur.

Since the chemical propulsion would have greater thrust, the mission return time would also be significantly less than the 10 years for the SEP propulsion. The problem though is that you would need to get the return propellant from the asteroid. The report proposes using a carbonaceous asteroid which would have abundant H2O likely in chemically bound form, perhaps as much as 20%. So the question is are there simple methods known from ISRU studies to release H2O from say the carbonates and clays likely to be in carbonaceous asteroids?

You could enclose the ca. 7 meter diameter in a shroud and using a solar furnace either with a mirror or fresnel lens to release the volatiles, such as water, CO2 and methane. I'm thinking you could do this at low enough temperature that only the volatiles are released, and the solid material would not be vaporized. Then you would use the highest temperatures possible with a solar furnace, ca. 3,500 degress C:

Solar Furnace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_furnace

to do electrolysis to separate the hydrogen and oxygen. Another complication is that you would need cryogenic chilling equipment to liquefy the hydrogen and oxygen for the RL-10 engines on the Centaur. Probably you would also need to separate out the other volatiles such as the CO2 and methane, another complication.

Anyone know of research on this question of heating of water bearing minerals to remove the water all the way to the step of turning it separately into hydrogen and oxygen?

Another possibility if you are going to use a solar furnace is to use solar thermal propulsion. One particularly simple implementation of this would be to simply vaporize the asteroidal material without separating it out to say hydrogen as the reaction mass. At maximal temperatures of 3,500 C you would still get pretty good Isp even using high molecular weight materials. A disadvantage of this is that you would also lose some proportion of the valuable minerals.

Any of these possibilities I would estimate would cost far less than a billion dollars however.


   Bob Clark

#744 Human missions » On the lasting importance of SpaceX. » 2012-06-16 15:42:46

RGClark
Replies: 35

Two posts to my blog.

This first one argues that the importance of what SpaceX accomplished is that other
companies can do it too and at similar costs. There was nothing particularly
innovative about the SpaceX engines or of their structures. All that would be
required is to use normal good business practice in privately developing the
launchers and the spacecraft:

On the lasting importance of the SpaceX accomplishment.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … pacex.html

And this one proposes the orbital DC-Y as a private, commercial passenger
launcher at a few hundred million development cost:

On the lasting importance of the SpaceX accomplishment, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … ex_15.html


  Bob Clark

#745 Re: Human missions » Control cost or go home » 2012-06-15 07:13:51

RGClark wrote:

Good point about gas gun launch being doable now for small payloads. Do you have a link to this teams research?


I found the gun launch researchers by searching on the Mars Society conference for 2011:

Report on the 2011 Mars Society Annual Convention
posted Aug 16, 2011 10:36 AM by Michael Stoltz   [ updated Aug 16, 2011 10:46 AM ]
By Richard Obousy, Centauri Dreams (centauri-dreams.org), 08.16.11

One talk that still resonates with me was given by Dr. John Hunter, an ex-theoretical physicist turned space engineer. Hunter is the director of Quicklaunch, a company planning to use a light gas gun to launch payloads into space. The basic idea behind the gas gun is to use a large piston which imparts force to a gaseous working fluid through a smaller diameter barrel which contains the projectile to be accelerated. The gun that Hunter is working on gives the projectile, a single stage rocket engine plus payload, an initial speed of 6 km/s which launches it to approximately 100 km altitude.
At this point, the rocket engine fires and gives the projectile the final kick it needs to circularize its orbit. Using this technique, Hunter believes that he will be able to attain launch costs of $500/lb. Contrast this with the Space Shuttle costs of around $10,000/lb and the economics quickly makes sense. Even Elon Musk’s heavy Falcon launcher will be around the $1000/lb mark, so Hunter’s gas gun looks like an attractive option! One obvious limitation is that the high gee forces (~100 g’s) experienced during the initial launch exclude the possibility of human passengers, and so the gas gun will likely focus on launching propellant payloads. The resulting fuel ‘depots’ could enable future manned lunar and Mars exploration, if Quicklaunch were used in tandem with traditional launch systems. I encourage anyone interested in this fascinating technology to take a look at the Quicklaunch website which contains more details on their plans and accomplishments to date.
https://sites.google.com/a/marssociety. … convention

Propellant Delivery to Orbit in Support of Mars Exploration with Hydrogen Gas Guns - Dr. John Hunter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7RGSBOmsm4


  Bob Clark

#746 Re: Human missions » Control cost or go home » 2012-06-15 01:31:02

Impaler wrote:

Clark:  Your SSTO link seems to completely neglect that SSTO is pointless if the vehicle is also Expendable, if it's going to fly once then maximizing payload by shedding dry mass on the way up is the optimum strategy no matter how high the efficiency of the engine.  A vehicle must be reusable before SSTO even becomes a possibility economically, and even then a dis-assembly on assent and re-assembly on the ground still makes a lot of sense.

Take a look at the very insightful quote of Arthur C. Clarke I put at the beginning of the blog post.


   Bob Clark

#747 Re: Unmanned probes » Low cost applications of the new spy scopes donated to NASA. » 2012-06-13 23:35:19

RGClark wrote:

Blog post on using the new telescopes for planetary defense, asteroid prospecting, and Mars orbiter satellites:

Low cost development and applications of the new NRO donated telescopes.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … tions.html


  Bob Clark

Follow-up blog posts:

1.)Discussion of using the new Hubble-class scopes to search for nomad planets
and hypothesized large planets at the extreme fringe of the Solar System:

Low cost development and applications of the new NRO donated telescopes, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … ns_12.html

and:

2.)Discussion of using distributed computing to allow the public to take part
in the asteroid, new planet, and brown dwarf search:

Low cost development and applications of the new NRO donated telescopes, Page 3.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … ns_13.html


   Bob Clark

#748 Re: Human missions » Developing the cis-Lunar economy and infrastructure » 2012-06-13 23:29:47

Impaler wrote:

I've got a SpaceWorks study that says a 1,770 m/s Delta-V Mars departure from EML1 can get you to Mars by use of a Lunar & Earth sling-shot with 3 burns, one at L1 and 1 at each perigee 100 km and 400 km altitude respectively.  The C3 is 28.2 km2/s2 and the outbound duration while not stated explicitly should be in the 200-250 day range if they were making apples-2-apples comparisons with the LEO departures.  So adding an additional 1,830 m/s might considerable improve the transit time while potentially leaving enough propellent for an insertion burn at Mars.  The main draw-back is that your departure window becomes constrained by the cycle of the Moon which
.

Do you have a link for the SpaceWorks study?

  Bob Clark

#749 Re: Human missions » Control cost or go home » 2012-06-13 06:19:44

GW Johnson wrote:

...
BTW,  at that convention,  I saw another paper that really intrigued me vis-a-vis refueling the reusable transit ship in LEO.  There's a group with a light gas gun already launching small test articles for USAF at around half orbital speeds.  They presented design projections for a scaled-up gun that could shoot loaded propellant tanks to LEO.  Hard tank plus a small solid motor to circularize.  Their estimate of cost per pound delivered was amazingly low:  under $100/pound.  Until we have propellant-making infrastructure in space,  that's an amazingly practical way to refuel reusable things in LEO for subsequent missions (including emplacing said infrastructure). 
GW

Good point about gas gun launch being doable now for small payloads. Do you have a link to this teams research?
Railgun launch for small payloads is also doable now by scaling up the Navy research with their railguns:

It's real! Navy test-fires first working prototype railgun.
By Kelley Vlahos
Published February 28, 2012
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/02/ … e-railgun/

Small payload costs to orbit under $100/kg are possible then. When you consider the energy costs to orbit are less than a dollar a kilogram, this is well within the feasibility range.
Propellant costs to orbit at less than $100/kg makes possible a key advantage of SSTO's. If you calculate the delta-v from LEO to the Moon and back, then the total delta-v is less than that required to get to orbit. So if one did have his own private, SSTO vehicle, then with propellant depots, he would also have his own private lunar vehicle. Note this is NOT true of two-stage-to-orbit-vehicles where the upper stage might only get a delta-v of 6,000 m/s or so.
Then this is another reason why the fact that low cost SSTO's are doable now is so important:

The Coming SSTO's.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … sstos.html


  Bob Clark

#750 Re: Human missions » Developing the cis-Lunar economy and infrastructure » 2012-06-12 11:45:09

Terraformer wrote:

However, keep in mind that if your engine fails on your ERV, you're not getting back to Terra either...

From EML1, it's only a 90 day trip with a delta-V of 3.6km/s. Perhaps achieving orbit at the other end would be viable with a combination of retrorockets and aerocapture? On the plus side, half of your transfer vehicle will be hydrogen, so you don't have to worry about solar flares during your flight...

  I haven't seen transit times that short even from EML1 with only a 3.6 km/s delta-v. Do you have a ref for that?


  Bob Clark

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