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#501 Re: Planetary transportation » Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? » 2004-03-04 08:45:32

I like the hovercraft solution, but then I like hovercrafts! You never know all these ideas may be out the window by the time we get a manned mission - they may have come up with an anti-grav unit and we won't have to worry about brittle tyres; slow heavy tracks; or dust from hovercrafts.

#502 Re: Water on Mars » Coverage Significant Findings - Bit of a rant... » 2004-03-04 08:21:23

Considering NASA said they were going to make public significant findings about Mars, what did you think of the coverage the announcement received? I know a lot of people have doubts about if it was really an important announcement to make - but come on it was confirming a lot of past speculation. A scientific theory is just that until its proven - a theory. I consider the water announcement to have been big enough in my eyes to warrant a good coverage on the TV. I don't know what coverage other countries got but here in the UK, I watched the start of the announcement live on FOX, they cut away after a couple of minutes so I changed to CNN, they also cut away, it was only after flipping through say another 10 news channels that I found it on Sky news, tucked away on an interactive screen.
When headlines normally cover celebrity misshaps and affairs - don't you think they could have given reasonable coverage to a subject that probably interests thousands of people in this country alone?
If water is not big enough news for the media to give live coverage to, what do you think is....
A little bug-eyed monster popping up to opportunity and giving its lens a wipe perhaps big_smile

#503 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space » 2004-03-03 09:11:23

Errorist
[http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cairns/ … node2.html]This may be of some use in seeing how molecules escape into space, I studied the subject a couple of years ago and seem to remember looking at a similar website then to get the process fixed in my head. We are talking *tiny* amounts over a year though.

#504 Re: Life on Mars » Spheres are concreations. Are they are hematite? » 2004-03-03 02:35:40

Do you mean if they are hematite could there also be signs of life in the past?

#506 Re: Interplanetary transportation » How far off are we to conquering gravity? » 2004-03-03 02:26:07

Hydrogen and Helium defy gravity. Both elements make it through our atmosphere every day to space.

They are still normally bound to the planet by gravity, or there would be none at all. It is only when they are acted upon by some external force giving them enough energy to reach an escape velocity which if the motion of the molecules/atoms is in the correct direction means they exit the atmosphere into space.

#507 Re: Water on Mars » Hecates Tholus - Evidence of water flow? » 2004-03-03 00:46:35

Now the article... It's a bit skinny, isn't it? Exactly why do they think it's water and not lava?

I thought there may have been more information on the ESA website, but it looks to be almost the same article. They do have a high resolution [http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/mar … 95-300.jpg]image of the area however, plus some 3D images on their site.
Perhaps they'll elaborate on their suggestion at a later date.

#508 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 13:02:23

Liquid water that once drenched the surface sounds good to me.

#509 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 10:45:50

Look at new Opportunity Pancam image:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 36L6M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....6M1.JPG

Middle-Left you can see:

A Martian Marble sitting on a "Stem".
It's VERY clear by the shadow the thing is casting.

WOW !

The image could have a second ball and stem if you look at the outcrop of rock above the obvious ball/stem two balls look like they are eroding from the rock, on 'appears' to be on a shorter stem - though it could just be the shadow effect on that one.

#510 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Carbon nano tube straw for fuel transfer to space » 2004-03-02 10:36:33

Ok, cap the end of the tube that is just above sea level. Since the other end of the tube is still in space the whole inside of the tube is now under a vacuum. Correct????? Right????

Only if inside the tube already had a vacuum in it, otherwise it would be full of air (or whatever molecule you'd pumped into it first).

#511 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Carbon nano tube straw for fuel transfer to space » 2004-03-02 09:50:34

Hey, here is another thought. What if you shot a particle beam of hydrogen up the tube with out it hitting the sides?

That would suggest using a great amount of energy and some device for focusing the beam of molecules. By the time you've taken into account the amount of energy required to shoot the molecules and the cost of making a device to focus a beam over such a considerable distance you'd spent more than our lifetime worth of rocket based transportation.

#512 Re: Water on Mars » Hecates Tholus - Evidence of water flow? » 2004-03-02 09:31:43

Here's the article in case the link goes dead...

Close-up pictures taken by Europe's Mars Express probe of a volcano on the Red Planet reveal water could have flowed on its flanks in the past.
Images of the 5,300m-high mountain, Hecates Tholus, taken 275km above Mars, also show signs of cratering on the slopes caused by volcanic activity.
The caldera, a circular depression from which magma erupts or is withdrawn, can be seen in detail in the pictures.
Scientists say numerous collapses have re-shaped the caldera over time.
Lines seen radiating outwards on the picture are thought to be flow features related to water.
The pictures were taken by the High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) on Mars Express, the European Space Agency probe that is now in orbit around the Red Planet.
The volcano's caldera has a maximum diameter of 10 km and a depth of 600m.
This compares with a diameter of 60km and a depth of 3km for the caldera on Olympus Mons which - at around 22km in height - is the tallest volcano in the Solar System.
Hecates Tholus is the northernmost volcano in the Elysium group which lie on the northern plains.

#513 Re: Water on Mars » Hecates Tholus - Evidence of water flow? » 2004-03-02 09:29:48

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3525821.stm]BBC News are reporting the possible evidence of water flowing on Hecates Tholus in the past, anyone thoughts on this (or is it old news and I've missed the link sad )

#514 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space » 2004-03-02 09:19:53

Have you calculated how much energy would be required to get say hydrogen to escape velocity?
If we say the mass of an hydrogen atom is around 1.6735 x 10exp-24 g
And it needs to reach 11200 meters per second, what is the amount of energy required, and furthermore is that amount of energy provided?
Remember that helium would require twice as much energy.

#515 Re: Planetary transportation » Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? » 2004-03-02 08:48:37

*Yep, I've noticed those rocks and boulders even from the Viking images...yipes.  sad

I think I mentioned somewhere previously that vehicles on Mars should be outfitted with the equivalent of snowplow blades.  Push them rocks right out of the way!  wink

Why are you discussing tyres, Shaun?  Well, I think men tend to discuss matters such as these more than persons of my gender.  wink

A snow plough type attachment would only be useful if the rock was not too well buried, I can see it working on surface boulders and the like but many of them we're only seeing the tip of the iceburg.
They could use a light metal alloy as a wheel and tyre in one if it had suitable groove marks and maybe offset insert of rubber (or similar). You'd need pretty good suspension to go with it though or the ride would be fun!

#516 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 08:38:38

what are thet going to announce? My guess. That the soil is 'moist' under a thin semipermeable/impermeable surface salt crust as seen in [http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]this colour image of the trench dug by Opportunity. My interpretation of that is that any moisture under the surface rapidly boils off when exposed, leaving behind a layer of nice white fluffy salt crystals, which I thought I saw in one of the microphotos of the trench prior to finding the colour  image. Gil Levin seems to think it's ice. frost on the surface doesnt hang about long once the sun gets up - as per Viking imagery - so I'm a bit dubious about that one. Basically I'm not sure. The fine salt crystal theory might also be related to the 'fluffy' appearance of a lot of the small stuff lying on the surface in the crater, seen in the microphotos and which does not look like solid rock.

I hope the pasta was good
The image of the trench dug by Opportunity has me almost agreeing with you on this, its probably wishful thinking on my part but the right hand side of the trench in this image, on the 'dug' side has almost a water trickle shadow effect on it. I know there will be a hundred and one explanations for these shadows, but just for a while I'll believe its water marks (not water itself).
When I say almost agreeing, thats only because I need to look at them again, and again, and again.....

I hope when the mission is over (as in no more data coming back) that NASA will compile all of the images onto CD or DVD, it'll take me ages to download them all on my internet connection speed!

#517 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 07:11:41

Rob Manning, a mission manager, said a week ago that he couldn't comment on the science team's speculation about the findings but that there was "probably as much enthusiasm as we've ever had by the science team and a lot of intense discussions over these last several days."

I like the last half of Rob Mannings sentence "intense disccusions over the last several days." I think we should have had a poll as to what the announcement was going to be. But its a bit late now :;):
Have been looking at newspaper websites from around the world on and off this morning and they all have virtually the same report - NASA are certainly keeping a lid on it, was the announcement brought forward to today from next week, if so is it to stop any leaks before they can do the 'big announcement'?

#518 Re: Unmanned probes » Strange "wheel" and "arrow" in new pic from Mars » 2004-03-02 06:55:28

Opprtunity took pic of "Arrow" pointed at BB (upper right corner)
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 59M2M1.JPG]Arrow
Any Idea?

One thing I did notice about the image is how loose the spherule on the left looks to be, it could have been dislodged by the rat when it was being scraped but it looks almost as if you could tap it out.

#519 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 06:15:48

They're just eroded out vesicles - gas bubbles formed when the rock was liquid. Commonly seen in basalts. You can see one in the microphotos taken of Adirondack rock by Spirit. Extreme vesiculation gives a 'vesicular basalt' as seen by Pathfinder - "Barnacle Bill' rock

[http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgge … ition%3Duk]Basalt

Its a while since I studied geology (and that was not in any depth - field trips looking at rain soaked rocks through bleary eyes, and lab sessions that resulted in me having more fun with the equipment than looking at the samples), any idea why the holes don't fill up with dust?

#520 Re: Planetary transportation » Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? » 2004-03-02 04:48:33

I'm in favour of to start with a half wheel, half track vehicle. Using tracks for the propulsion and wheels for steerings. How would a hovercraft type vehicle work in the Martian gravity/atmosphere, then you don't have to worry about the tyres freezing and breaking or tracks coming loose. A downside to the hovercraft would be it kicking up dust - but not being an expert on such things (having only built a small one that you can not ride sad  ) I don't know how much dust they create when hovering.

#521 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 01:02:08

http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1314 … html]These holes (well seven of them) look recent. It may be my eyes - its early and i've been studying too hard this morning - but the holes don't seem to fit in with the natural depressions that cover the rest of the image.

#522 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Carbon nano tube straw for fuel transfer to space » 2004-03-02 00:34:35

At the height of 20 miles the Helium is still enclosed inside the rubber balloon, what happens? It becomes neutrally bouyant within the atmosphere because it still has the weight of the rubber balloon surrounding it,and it can't continue up further. Now pop the balloon.The Helium continues on up,and into space.

No, it would not raise much higher if you popped the balloon but would again be dispersed into the surrounding atmosphere.
I don't think anything I say will convince you Errorist that the straw would only provide a trickle of molecules into space so I think I'll agree to disagree on the matter, or we could be here for a long time :;):

#523 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Carbon nano tube straw for fuel transfer to space » 2004-03-01 11:03:25

Forgot to mention in my response regarding the helium balloon, that they have a height range of around 20 miles, this is when the weight of the helium molecules are no longer lighter than the surrounding air. So this does not support the nano tube theory.

#524 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-01 09:37:13

So you guys were right!

Rumour has it, early next week big press conference!

[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40229.html]Space.com

I liked the line "There is a palpable buzz here at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena". So they're certainly onto something, water and biological history sounds good to me, perhaps they 'know' what the blueberries are? Or they have a nice juicy fossil image to show us. Could be an interesting week.

#525 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Carbon nano tube straw for fuel transfer to space » 2004-03-01 09:23:19

If the Hydrogen or Helium was not contained in the balloon it would just disperse into the atmosphere.
I certainly would want to run a computer simulation on such a theory, you can not seriously tell me that you'd just spend millions on construction of a nanotube just because you suspect your theory is correct - regardless of your view on the nanotube straw (will it or won't it work) a good computer simulation would give you a rate of flow to establish if it was worth building.

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