New Mars Forums

Well digging a hole 45K deep would be a little moronic when you could use a succession of asteroid impacts to do the job for you. Let gravity do most of the work while creating an incredible heatsink at the same time.

GCNR, Im confused. We all know how challenging building a RLV capable of reaching orbit is otherwise it woulda already been done by now. But are you saying it can never be done? Do you really think that 20 years from now we won't have reliable trasport to orbit in the form of a RLV? How long do you think its going to take?

Ok people, time to do your good deed for the day!
Rep. D-Jim Oberstar is spearheading an effort to require more FAA regulation in the private space industry. I dont need to tell most of you how important is it that we give this industry time to grow on its own. What we need to do right now is contact jim Oberstar and let him know that we appreciate his efforts to safeguard us, but that killing or forcing this new industry across seas will be much more damaging that a few accidents. Keep it nice and thoughful but make your views heard. We have to put some pressure on this guy before he builds up momentum and makes a cause out of this. Now Ive included several links on the breaking story as well as the info and sites to make an email to him. Please take 5 mins to do this,  it will be the best 5 mins you spent. I've already done most of the work for ya.

http://wwwc.house.gov/oberstar/zipauth. … ipauth.htm

That link takes you to the site where you will need to enter your name (or fictional) as well as your zip code. Now you MUST enter the extra 4 digits of the zip code or you cant send him email. he only accepts letters from people in his district.

55710-8312
This is a full zip code for Britt, MN
Use it if you dont know how to find a different one. For those of you with good net skills I suggest you use a different zip code so it doesnt look like all the spacenuts of the nation have moved to Britt MN

http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome_addre … ...p=55710

Here's a link for the +4 digit zip code look up at the postal service. Just find an address and type it in, then it will give you the last 4 digits of a zip code

http://www.oberstar.house.gov/index.asp … ...2CF8AF}

This link will show you what cities are in Oberstar's district. Find a city then google search that city along with MN and someones address will pop up in the search results, then just enter that into the USPS site to get the last 4 digits of the zip code.

Please, if you do nothing else today just take 5 mins to write this man and discourage his coarse of action.  He will think twice before taking this position if people in his district are against it. Notice how he doesnt even mention it on his home page, he thinks no one notices.

http://www.space-travel.com/news/touris … m-05h.html

And finally the link to the article where Oberstar makes his crusade loud and clear....

"For years," Oberstar complained, "both I and many of my colleagues on the aviation subcommittee have criticized the FAA for waiting until after a disaster to take safety actions, and have urged more proactive safety oversight."

During the hearings, Oberstar not only berated witnesses, but he also said he would introduce legislation to amend the space law.

"My bill would give the FAA the flexibility to create a regulatory structure governing the design or operation of a launch vehicle," he said, "to protect the health and safety of crews and spaceflight participants as is necessary, without having to wait for a catastrophic failure to occur."

The day after the hearings, the office at the FAA with authority to regulate commercial space travel opened a two-day conference in Washington to review the industry and the law.

Speaking of colonizing Mars, I recently heard a wonderful idea off SpaceDaily.com. Create a hole 45k deep at Mars' lowest region, the atmosphere would then drain into this pit creating about 1 full bar of atmospheric pressure making a much more effecient greenhouse in no time. Any thoughts?

Actually, though its not free, it's about as close to free as you can get when building infastructure in space. For a few billion we could send a few rovers and a small factory to make at least low-grade solar panels on the Moon. Since it would be entirely automated, it's possible that the 'powerstation' would continue growing and eventually yeild enough energy to pay for itself. As the MER missions have shown, telerobotics is rather cheap once the initial missions are paid for.

At first I thought that this goal of Bigelow's was totally unreachable, now I'm not so sure. As some have mentioned here, there are many companies that have a head start. Also, if there are efforts willing to spend 2x the actual prize money as Allen and Co. did, then you have finances approaching $200 million which should be entirely doable. The true beauty of Bigelow's proposal is that the reward is mainly on the back end of the prize. As he correctly states, the winner will not neccessarily be awarded all the servicing contracts to his orbital hotels. A post contest goal is something that Rutan's team didn't really have (races aren't all that profitable).

Ah yes, but Spacenut, the technology hasn't fundamentally changed and that is why it hasn't become any cheaper. Today we are looking at lighter than air space access and space elevators. Who know what tomorrow will bring?

UPDATE: I just read MSNBC's version of the story and they are saying it will be sub-orbital flights not orbital. It appears SpaceDaily had a typo, sorry for the confusion. Still quite facinating though.

Ok so there are arguments, I expected that and I have more than frozen fish to rebut them 

Europa may have life yes. I was only kidding about the fish guys. There likely isn't enough energy available in the ocean of Europa to support such large animals without sunlight.

I don't see how radiation is a factor, but perhaps I am misunderstanding. There would be no people involved in this project, only automation. So we don't need to worry about radiation frying any 'iceloaders'. The amount of radiation is also very manageable for machines since Galileo had no problem operating for years much closer to Jupiter.

Europa is covered with a very thick crust of ice. We could use this technique for a century and not even come close to breaching the barrier between ice and water.

I must admit, I don't understand the 'hands off' sentiment when dealing with bodies like Mars or Europa that might possibly harbor life. The latest data from Mars Express suggests that life is limited to maybe three regions on Mars. In other words, it is dying off if it is there. There is no chance for life on the surface of Europa and it is likely that its oceans are freezing out. To do nothing seems to mean certain death for these possible natives of these two respective worlds.

Also, thinning the ice by this technique would only allow more energy into Europa's ocean via solar energy. Granted, unless we are only talking about a meter of ice, it isn't much energy, but Im sure every bit counts.

Going to Mars (or anywhere in space for that matter) is only going to get cheaper as new technology replaces the old. What will the world be like when governments answer to super-corporations even more so than they do today? When we have trillionaires, won't just one of them say 'I'd like to live on Mars.'? Settling Mars isn't a matter of 'if' but 'when'. It will happen as sure as the sun rises and sets.

So why must we be so anxious you ask? Why do it in the next ten to twenty years when it will be so hard? Why not wait till it is easy to do and safe?

To answer this let's look at Antartica. There are people living there right now as I write this. But are they terraforming their environment to be more comfortable? No. They aren't allowed to alter Antartica because it is one of the few last pristine environments on Earth.

For the last 10,000 years humans have spread out and settled new lands because lets face it, their old lands are ruined. Eygpt was once a lush and fertile place and now it is desert. Europe is also under the strain of expiring resources. Now America is cutting down its last ancient trees, polluting its water supplies, and running out of room for its garbage.

I fear that we will wait too long to settle Mars. I fear that once we finally do get there we won't go there as frontier folk, but as a few scientist studing the 'last pristine environment'.

When you rely on force you only cower the sheep, not the wolves. I know I've said it before, but you can't give people true democracy. This is true in part because you will always have people that reject anything forced on them.

We can take away their guns, lock up violent individuals, but in the end they will simply fight the system from within. I hate to say it but Iraq will never be peaceful now. I don't think a civil war can be avoided, we have simply affected too many people over there by killing so many civilians.

In regards to Spain, the elections were already decided. The majority of nearly every country in the world is against our occupation of Iraq, the bombings in Spain simply made it a landside instead of a relatively close election.

Good posts BWhite and Robert. When you have a choice between asteroids, the Moon and Mars it should be clear that only Mars has everything we need to sustain and support the growth of a human presence.

Science is wonderful, but even here, Mars is a much better target even without the possibility of life being added to the mix.

By the way, Mars Express has narrowed down the methane concentrations to three regions highest in water vapor. Seems pretty obvious where our next rovers should go now.