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cIclops,
The moey raised by the sales would be for the planet or colony government not the earth based governments. Secondly, as land owners you are also the ruling citizens of the colony or planet thus could form a government and create an embassy on earth thus control the funds for the planet or colony expansion and then take control or leave to the international body to continue future land sales.
Also it provides the legal, economic and structure framework for the expansion of the planets , moons and colonies within our solar system. The earth bound embassies act within the United Nations regarding the rights of their colonies, and worlds, including landing rights for space vehicles and mineral usage rights as well.
We could expand the Space Treaty with additional clauses providing controlled property, mineral rights and the mechanisms to management those rights for the benefits to humanity in a sustainable and commerical way.
deimopolitan,
The prize would be property and ownership rights for builders, settlers, and miners of the colony on Martian Surface. The only way to develop the expansion of space within our solar system is to answer the property rights and ownership rights issues for other solar bodies within our solar system. The most complicated question is who does the auction of land and who does the mining and exploration leases ? ,
Possible Answer - I think it should be an International body created for the sole purpose of land sales and land disputes and land title management. The agency will value all land including asteroids, or any other stellar body within the solar system out to 150AU in all directions. Then they will manage the auctions for the land sales for each world or body and the funds will be supplied or held in trust for government bodies for each planetary or colony within the solar system in the future.
With the sales we could use the funds to start the movement of resources, including human resources for the expansion of human society upwards into space and beyond earth into our solar system.
The primary reason for the Moon is a large industrial outpost for construction and development components for spaceships, cargo for settlements throughout the solar system and a scientific platform for exploring the universe from, particularly the far side of the moon from earth.
Mars will have the largest colony for humans except for earth in this solar system. We could provide all the necessary resources for all settlements via movement of resources including movements of planetoids, asteroids and comets to meet the needs of the greater human society.
" All issues have a solution " don't think too small in the development of answers. !!
you asked for wild cards that could effect the outcomes for a Mars Program, I didn't say that the space program would be dead, It can be modified or reduced or changed via political decision , and I don't care what country you are talking about.
Tom,
Politics stop the last time to the Moon, and it could stop it again, unless the world is forced to continue having issues that means the need for space exploration and colonization.
Katrina has cost upwards of $100 Billion or more, what about a global disasters equal or greater than that on all land masses. It doesn't need nuclear weapons , a hurriance Cat 5 can do the damage, several could wipe out cities, earthquakes, volcanoes can do it as well, again not nuclear weapons, In indonesia they are having issues with sulphoric mud that is coming up that has destroyed 1000 + buildings and increasing it might follow for decades up to a century, if it can't be stopped , what about the damage to the water supplies in the world and food stocks that could start hunger because of the toxic issues with this mud. Our economies work together across the world, and can become unstable with major issues effecting them.
All these issues could effect the outcomes for a Mars Program because it is optional expenditure and not essential to human life on this planet and that comes first in all governments eyes. ( REMEMBER THAT !!!!!)
We don't know what this world will offer us over the next 24 hours how can we determined 1 or 2 decades ahead, you can plan but you need to look at all contigencies including loss of funding and redirection of resources , personnel, and facilities in any strategic plans particular to the mission for Mars and beyond.
Wild cards :
Government Williness to continue the development towards mars
Terrorism into full scale wars across the world
Worldwide Hunger, Disease and Homelessness from war
Before we get to technical or other factors
Well, If you want to live in the past , then think of this ---- Henry Ford created the first mass produced car, it wasn't the most efficient vehicle or the best, but it was cheap and did its job and they mass produced them , then better cars came later, When the computer age started the machines where crap boxes that broke down alot and had not programs or customers until they got better.
We are at the beginning of the space race and it should look crappy , in-efficient but should do its job and we should mass produce the vessels for exploring and expansion into space, the better vessels will come , the better drives will come and we will expand the human race into space.
The world we have today is built for the thousands of years of human culture, struggle and scarifice in social, moral, political and military change we need to move forward not stop or the universe will move pass and leave us behind. If that means the development of space barons or the creation of a space confederation or even space governors from each nation on earth we need to move forward not slowly spin around on our axis.
Lets get back to feudal European, the clan or baron get to Mars or any planetary body becomes sole authority on the planet and its riches and resources, and they become the government until they decide to convert to a coucil based elected government. They can levy taxes , charges and fees, also determine space boundaries, because the rest of the world doesn't want the resources, technologies, from space.
That will give the entrenprenuers a reason to go becaome the first duke or first lord of that planet including Mars. That will also make the government to get there act together to start human settlements and colonizations to compete with private sector.
Tom,
No, We need entrepreneurs to say that its time and move to get to mars cheap and then when there get moving on a outpost construction. But First we need apative automation software to oversee the development of the outpost and quailty control software to test each component of the outpost.
To build a long term Manned Mars Program ( including future settlement / colonization ) we will need to develop the necessary infrastructure around the earth , on the moon, and navigation to Mars and the outer planets / moons / asteroids in our solar system.
On earth we need the development of a long term manned exporation department / agency separate from NASA or a Global Agency for Mars Development bring together multiple countries including personnel and material resources. All the existing agencies are focused on many different projects and missions we need a single focus agency to meet the needs for Mars in the short and long term.
Until we provide leadership, earth infrastructure and space based infrastructure we will continue to do these tourist / explorer type missions and they won't meet our short and long term mars exploration and settlements objectives.
Tom, you are correct the 1% could provide a continous manned mars program for a slow build up from tourist site to outpost to settlement to colony eventually. But what about the other space programs like the moon , earth sciences , remote vehicles to other planets and moons in our solar system or beyond.
You would need more like 2% or US$55 Billions per year to have $27 Billion for Mars only and $12 billion for Moon and the other $16 billion for current earth science, space station and probe activities. Then we could meet all objectives for the space program outlined by Bush.
But the development of Mars needs to be done like the development of the Panama Canal or rail systesm, or road systems or dams or any other large scale projects, through planning, management and continous material and personnel supply.
Well,
I have been saying this for ages, the American Public and the Tax-Paying Public don't like the use of money for tourist missions to Moon or Mars or anywhere else. They want concrete uses and outcomes.
What we need is a framework for the advancement of space not just for Amercian's , Europeans, Chinese or Russian but all nations , that means the establishment of property right frameworks, regulatory frmeworks for landings, outposts, mining and more, created into an agreement for the future or we will have first in - first get largest piece of the Solar System.
It also shows that the public doesn't want the US Treasury to pay for the development of space and let the other countries come after and get the benefits -- I think the US Public hasn't been told of the benefits to their economy and should be at all levels including at school levle, business / consumer level, and government level.
Commercial Development of Space will only occur when the same rules apply from earth activities to the lunar surface, Mars and beyond including property ownership and mineral resource management practices. Therefore we need to develop a framework for property sales, mineral leases and royalty agreements to expand the lunar settlements and Mars settlements in the short, medium and long term basis.
Developing the Framework :
ICANN was created to oversee the internet with several supporting organization groups and Advisory committees including a committee representing the general public / users of the Internet.
Creation of an International body with membership by all current space races and signatories to the various space treaties , them form the body and oversee the creation of two new UN members to the united nations ( Mars Seat ) and the ( Lunar Seat ) with all rights to a full member of the UN.
Secondly the International Body with the Mars and Lunar UN Embassies then commence the development of the business and goverment framework to expand the bodies with commercial infrastructure including mining, transport and settlements. These core frameworks will provide the legal framewok for corporations to commence investment in space and the financial expansion into an interplanetary economy.
BUT ............!!!!!
Nothing will expand , growth, develop , if the framework for investment and ownership are not setdown.
blueyes,
The issue for commercial payment for the venture would be -- What commercial companies to fund the project -- Private or Public ? 1) Private companies are generally smaller and you would require alot to build a consortium to create the Mars Direct Project. 2) Public Companies are larger but have alot of regulations and shareholder expectations on the return of capital.
You would need a detailed defined goal on the planet to have investors reasons to invest money into the project, such as Survey Probe with defined mineral deposits and worl towards mining and extraction of minerals for use on the surface for development. Then you could have many billions of dollars released for mineral exploration and infrastructure development for the planet.
GCNR,
I didn't say a Martian Space Station , I said to return the first stages via an orbit, I meant earth - moon system. To build a larger space platform ( could be a space station or factory or science platform or many other variations ) by the reuse of the mars launch stages providing a 3x / 4x size increase on ISS platform.
Recycle, recycle, recycle ------- Name of the Game !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with tom, we could build a viable Mars mission to the red planet without the endangerment of the existing human missions for the Moon , but provides evidence to the Public of the resolve to expand humanity into space.
We need to develop a modular approach to Mars, that could use the existing hardware of CEV to assembly a working outpost for humans on the surface of the red planet. We could launch Ares V rocket with a first stage ( about 80 tonnes ) of the mars vessel into orbit and a second Ares V bring the second and cargo stage ( another 60 tonnes ) for the Mars vessel and then linking them in orbit using a shuttle derived robotic arm on the first stage, we can dock remotely from the space station or on earth.
When the mission commences the first stage would move the vessel away from earth orbit towards Mars , once near completion the first stage separates and with thrusters places itself into a orbit that could be used for establishment of a larger space station or platform. ( over several missions we could supply many stages to eventually be linked into a space structure within or past earth - moon system orbit.)
The second stage provides the thrust to supply the cargo to Mars where its deposited on the surface providing the tools, shelter/s, vehicles, equipment and other supplies for the Human missions to mars to commence.
GCNRevenger,
Space provides a unique environment for power system that normally couldn't do on earth. because of the gravity differences , temperature difference we could use tecnologies not common on earth. We need to development power systems that could generate energy up to several megawatts without the use of solar for spacecrafts, I have an idea that doesn't use nuclear reactors neither. For larger space vessels will require nuclear energy --- probably fusion power but that's in the future.
All the technologies to date about nuclear propulsion 1950's - to today (including the NERVA) are based on the either combustion system and heating the propellant through a nuclear reactor or the explosive power of fusion bomblets exploding using shockwave for thrust. We need to look beyond the simple explosive engine systems and look for a quantum leap of tehnologies into the realm of hyperspace / hyper veolcity drive systems. There is a difference between Intra-solar system missions and Interstellar Missions outside our solar system to beyond.
The development of Plasma drive and Ion Drive are the best hopes for Intra-solar system missions where the development of Hyperspace and Hypervolicty Drive is the best hope for interstellar missions. Nuclear Reactors will be required to power the drive systems and onboard electrical systems but not drive the vessels in space. So lets development the intra-solar system vehicles before thinking about the interstellar vehicles
Conclusion
We development of Power systems as well as drive systems that enhance our space exploration, and these developments must have long term benefits for humanity near earth and beyond our solar system.
All the technologies to date about nuclear propulsion 1950's - to today (including the NERVA) are based on the either combustion system and heating the propellant through a nuclear reactor or the explosive power of fusion bomblets exploding using shockwave for thrust. We need to look beyond the simple explosive engine systems and look for a quantum leap of tehnologies into the realm of hyperspace / hyper veolcity drive systems. There is a difference between Intra-solar system missions and Interstellar Missions outside our solar system to beyond.
The development of Plasma drive and Ion Drive are the best hopes for Intra-solar system missions where the development of Hyperspace and Hypervolicty Drive is the best hope for interstellar missions. Nuclear Reactors will be required to power the drive systems and onboard electrical systems but not drive the vessels in space. So lets development the intra-solar system vehicles before thinking about the interstellar vehicles.
Nuclear Explosions are designed to destroy not as a form of propulsion, for long term space voyages we need to work on hyperspace development and other forms of hypervelocity programs.
Remember this " the most powerful force in the universe and binds the universe together is gravity , the understanding of the power could be the key to hyper velocity "
Discover not destroy !!!!!!!!!!
who gives a dam, about another failed National Space Agency, by the time we get back to the moon it will be almost 50 years after we landed the first time. It will be almost 65 years when we might get to Mars, and these are tourist / explorer manned missions not outpost or settlements, that will not enspire the public about the huge cost in the space race. The expensive nature could stop the expansion or completely demolish the manned space activities in the future.
I want to see a serious space agency, to go into space and build into space for the long term and not this quickie trips to the moon or mars or beyond. If you don't like my comments about all the failed Space Agencies including ESA, NAS, RSA, JASA, and CSA just to name a few. We need clear concise action for space and in the next 30 years we should have a minimum of 300 humans in space permanent or on rotation but the numbers should go up and down currently we have less then 8 humans in space at any given time on the ISS and orbiting crafts.
We need to stop playing about space and act !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have knowledge about build space stations then build them to house factories and develop products to be shipped to earth and also food processing offworld use. Second expand that into missions to the moon with robotic mining and other activitities clearly build on the facilities in orbit, Be BOLD , BE CONCISE, BE COURAGEOUS in space development.
Tom,
Every country has skeltons and the US of A has its share as well. I don't care what government or government agency wants to go to Mars or any other place outside the earth zone because they don't represent the world and shouldn't leave the earth zone without that mandate.
Each planet should have one governing authority, not individual country authorities running each small outpost or colony. I governing authority means one laws, one police / protection service, one immigration and customs service. I don't care if its the first six person tourist mission or 200 people setting up three settlements.
Only when the missions leaving the earth zone can have one governing authority representation for the human race.
Conclusion
I know it won't go down every well with people wanting their country getting to mars before the other one but I hope that private enterprise or non-profit organization get there first and tell all the governments to go back until they function as one governing body for humanity.
Tom,
I agree, If NASA or any government or semi-government authority doesn't push the boundaries of space then why should they go. Space is dangerous place everyone , but , its better expanding the human race in death then sitting at home and reading the newspaper and having boring lives, because they won't be worth anything if you didn't achieve anything in your term on the planet within the human race.
To get to Mars we need to be "Bold" and "Couragous" those values are sometimes lacking in the general public of today because they have a comfortable environment and they don't have to poineer anymore. With all the resources out there in our solar system we could support billions of humans across this solar system. We need to stop adding the resources cost and start adding the resources created for the space program and our human society.
If we don't other people in comapnies, countries, cartels and governments will eventually build the technology and expand into space with or without the existing space players and they will own their assets , vessels, stations, surface bases and they will be the ones driving the expansion into space for themselves.
Tom,
The method for settlement , could be using the employee method of a company and the company (NASA or Private Contractor) employs people to settle on a planet or moon for a contract period to build the necessary infrastructure for a larger settlement. In this way they are going for a reason and not going to see what's there. The cost for moving them there and supplying them until food, power and human support environment are operational are part of the Deal with their employer, they are taking the risk.
The first three manned vessels ( plus numerous cargo unmanned vessels ) in convoy would bring all the necessary supplies, and housing for the construction /mining teams to commence development operations, this will happen after the initial survey / explorer missions already on the mission timetable. Over their term on the settlement they will build the environment to support up to 1000 people and other facilities including building space for business, science, transportation , mining, retail space, food outlet spaces and more to create a small city / colony environment.
Once ready then you bring forth the larger volumes of people in 6 to 10 vessel convoys ( up to 20 people per vessel ) . This is a rapid deployment of people and equipment including robotic systems for the industrial, mining and construction sectors of the settlement.
For Example we might want to sent a vessel to act as a mining and prodcing facility ( build in earth orbit as a space station with engines but can be compacted down for transit then anchor to an asteroid on arrival) for the asteroid belt first to get the mineral and water resources for the development of humans on the other planets and moons of the solar systems, not build on Mars. or combination mission, Mars / Asteroid belt cargo/ personnel runs the raw materials might be useful or we could take a shot at Mars only it depends on the factors involved.
It depends on what we want to do ????
What designs used for vessels ?????
What our ultimate goal for space is ????
Every person here would have different reasons, different concepts, but the only people that will get there are the people that will spend there money for the chance to succeed, and not for a monetary return but a share of the largest business market that humanity will ever see.
Tom,
Your are right about the defence of a whole planet better than an area ( Nation) on the surface of Mars.
SpaceBull
Most of the great trading Nations on the earth are not the owners of the ships that make them the leaders , its private shippers and the future in space will be private shippers / haulers across the system that will build the colonies and settlements on Mars and anywhere else , not governments. Some of the contracts will be with governments and at the start 95% will but as the locations expand and new drive technologies come online the cost per tonne or per kg or per lb will come down bringing large corporations and then private wealthly individuals and then general public into the system colonization. The volume and value of cargo will be more than what the whole earth could do , in 50 years when the full trading lanes open in space. From Mining outposts , Space factories, Space stations, Mars Settlements, Lunar Settlements , Earth Platforms and more.
Everyone
Look past the individual missions to mars and the moon, work out a method for resource allocation for mars settlements and lunar settelments at the most cost effective manner either from earth or within the solar system on a long term basis, and a short term basis. Private Sector are well placed to harness the possibilities in space and take advantage but the right taxation, property rights and other legal frameworks must be clearly defined or additional costs will occur and increase the costs overall. ( requires strategic planning to develop the necessary framework outside the normal earth based governmental framework )