New Mars Forums

That's just it.  The governemnt is for better or worse short-term sighted for the most part.  It will be largely Earth-biased for quite some time as long as we call Earth our main home.  Don't expect magical cruiseships or solar sails until we can just establish something out there, and science alone isn't enough.  Columbus didn't set sail for cataloging indigenous peoples or ocean life - he was looking to establish a trade route, and as famous as Lewis and Clarke were the Spanish and even the Russians were established on the West coast long before their exploration set off.

The CEV for LEO buisness (to a minor extent) and returning to space is exactly what we need it for.  Just like Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab, the Space Shuttle, and MIR the CEV will become another mode of space travel phased out just like the horse was to the automobile.

This portion alone of the Space Advocacy Group makes me suspect of their opinion:

Now wasn't it previously established not just in this forum but surely in papers elsewhere....INCLUDING the old Spaceplane concept that preceeded CEV, that both Atlas 5 and Delta 4 would take considerable time to man-rate?

Ok this part makes some sense.  I agree we need to keep the main focus of the CEV on exploration otherwise it'll be a vehicle mocking its own name which I think is the main fear of these people.  To that end more emphacis ought to be on the CaLV as opposed to the CEV/CLV so we can at least start putting equiptment out there.  There is a concept of putting the horse before the wagon, eh?  And the CLV would barely be a pony...

No doubt this is true, but every company is often trying to wring the government dry of money when it can.  I seem to recall Lockheed being given close to a billion for that scrapped X-33 on the same token and what good did that achieve?  Give them a few million of "seed money" I'd wager and if no fruit (in this case at least a working prototype) is borne then clear the dead wood.

Commercial spaceflight is still a fledgling as I stated before; not a dead-end but don't expect it to soar like the Eagle (or the Apollo 11 lander if you will    ) just yet.  Someone like Bigelow is the answer for them, and servicing the ISS within this decade I say.  The Moon and Mars are a little hefty to handle...but only for the moment.

There's my educated opinion for you all.

I agree.  Its a good 3/4s because-I-hate-Bush-and-want-to-burn-any-possible-legacy-of-his-term.

Some points I've noted, like the elimination of methane propulsion for the time being, although I am glad research is still continuing regardless of the VSE.

To make my point I'm not going to criticize until something is physically built, otherwise its all sound and no fury like what seems to be blowing around in the wake of the hurricanes in Florida.

If the same noteable patterns that damned the shuttle crop up during construction: delays, massive cost overruns (like the ISS), multiple compromises that degenerate not just the program but the safety of crew and outcome of mission, THEN we should not only criticize but take action - petition Micheal Griffen directly and Congress to let them know the minds once pushing this endeavour are now displeased.

Beyond NASA its always political, save perhaps private spaceflight but that is barely out of its shell as is...

Its good we're all debating about the technicalities of the Ares but try to remember to be thankful NASA is giving this serious thought instead of the years and years of mothballed Mars-quack plans since the 80s.  I'd rather not delve back into that era...

I'm not going to debate anything until we see the results of the prototype testing; engineering prints and working vehicles often prove to be two different creatures.

I'm not certain about the hoop-la over ETs.  To me it sounds little better than the hoop-la expressed over the Shuttle-C or the just-as-dead X-33.

If this ET-stuff is to continue or be applied, it needs to be adapted to the Ares V now.  It will be QUITE some time before private space companies can launch something of ET-massed capacity even if you're an optimist, so this would be a major public contribution if not a traditional government-funded project.

It might have its advantages, maybe not.  If the inflatables can be made more quickly and cheapy the ET as a space module will find itself out of the picture soon; certainly until Lunar Industry is established and modules of that size can be build and launched for future space colonies.

Anyone else officially bored with this lunar space station idea?

I have to admit that looks possible: modified Jules Vernse ATV, Space Station Module, and a Soyuz Return capsule.

I can see this as a European (I suppose Russia does qualify as European too    ) orbital vehicle, maybe even their equivelant of the US CEV.

However this is only an orbital ship, not a lunar lander.  Have all the headache's worth of fun with the space station but I'm sure even in Europe that phase will die out.  More to the point unless something more powerful than Ariane V is developed I doubt this could be lifted by a European rocket (Ariane X nonsense ignored).  Some equivellant of a EDS would be needed to boost this to the moon and there's still the need of a lander since a manned orbiter mission makes little sense when lunar probes/satellites can do the job already.

If this is done right, maybe this hypothetical vehicle could fit into the VSE lunar architecture.  It could be a counterpart to the CEV - if a universal docking port is used perhaps this craft could mate with a LSAM as well or the CEV - use our EDS or some future European booster and the mission could follow like VSE.

I don't see this vehicle as essential but, I suppose, encouraging for international cooperation in the VSE.  Our intetnational counterparts shouldn't focus on specified mission components (i.e. the Russionas build the booster, Europeans the Mars Lander, Americans the Orbiter...yadda yadda) but instead independently capable vehicles that just can dock with one another as the mission/situation calls for it.

:?  Space-enthusiasm aside you realize you're talking about a mechanical million-dollar wind-up toy?

Spirit and Opportunity both had a decent run and both have found some evidence of water, their objective.  I was thrilled both landed and rolled farther than any probe before and demonstrated abilities that, likely, only a human geologist will exceed.

If they conk they conk out, but at least its encouraging to know their warranties were quite good.

I'm afraid I have to agree with this on ion engines.  I give a vote of confidence for their usefulness and fuel efficency, but due to the amount of time they require its not practical on a manned mission where time is critical.  As I posted on a direct post regarding ion propulsion I'd limit it to cargo missions - and even then I must admit a stronger ion engine capable of lofting 50 ton paylods to the moon needs to be developed.

Reading through all this I have to agree.  Given in particular that note on Lunar Orbit being unstable as well putting a space station there is ineed a bad thought, especially if its half the cost of the ISS or more.  If its put anywhere it would have to be one of the LaGrange points, most likely L1 since its en route or possibly L4 or L5 due to their better stability.

I can see only two legitamate, but not essential, merits to a lunar station and it needent even be manned in both cases:

• -A place to safely stow/refurnish a reuseable LSAM
  -An LOX orbital storage facility.

Potentially helpful, but its not needed in the short-term since LOX production would take some time to establish anyway as well as the development of a R-LSAM.

I seem to recall the Challenger also being barely 3 years old into its estimated-20 year, 100 flight lifetime so newer is not better.

*stamps into gaetanomarano's: NO NEW SHUTTLES PERIOD*

No offense, but why do we need a 'parking arm' when we've got CanadaArm2 already, an upcoming arm on the Columbus module, and possible a Russian arm to boot?  Gez what, you want the ISS to become a squid-module or something with more arms?