New Mars Forums

Not bad, and assuming the Aliens didn't interfere with Earth too much and all other things being equal, history proceeds apace, except the early astrononers making different sketches in their notebooks, not appreciating their significance. Sir Edmond Halley never discovers his comet. Lots of speculation about the not-so-Red Planet. Edgar Rice Burrows writes a different story. Probes are sent to Venus, and then Mars. Humanhind makes its first steps on the Moon, but the shuttle doesn't get built. There is no Mars society as such is not needed. Immediately after Apollo a new space race begins between the USA and the USSR. The canals on Mars and the Boreal Ocean, and Hellas Sea are unmistakable signs of intelligence, radio contact is attempted but no response is received. No one wastes time building shuttles. Instead Saturn Rockets are utilized to lift components of an interplanetary spaceship into Orbit. The Russians meanwhile try to perfect their heavy lift launcher and rebuild the launch pad that their disasterous moon rocket exploded on. It seems that civilization on Mars is taken to be older than that on Earth, whatever is there is bound to be valuable in the competition between the superpowers so the race is on.

I'm talking about a hypothetical alternate history here that nevertheless adheres to the laws of physics. If history was different, detailed mapping operations would have showed something different from what they historically did show, that is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying this is true. If I was going to write about terraforming Mars, it would be easier to talk about in a what if situation as if it already happened in a work of fiction. Having human characters ten centuries in the future having recognizable names and cultural references would be quite a stretch. It would be easier to imagine contemporary astronauts exploring a Terraformed Mars, that to discuss the adventures of "Blip" and "Bleep" in the fantastic world of 3006 AD, where nanotechnology does everything for them, and terraformed Mars is an emenently civilized place lacking entirely the elements of danger and excitement that make for good reading. With a Martian World that is already terraformed by the time human probes first explore it, you have an element of mystery.

NASA doesn't want to lose a human in space, so it designs hypercautious human space missions that cost alot, but what if we were to sent Chimpanzees in a Mars Direct Hab and land it on Mars. We could land the Hab just like we could land any other probe on Mars. The chimps would have to do little but breath, eat, and survive for the duration of the mission, and they would stay in the hab. I don't know of any way of encouraging them to get in a spacesuit when their are no humans around to encourage them. Eventually the Chimps are likely to die when their food and oxygen run out, but we can find out if they survive the journey to Mars in a Mars direct mission and see how much that costs. If the Chimps can make it, so would humans most likely. and instead of putting in excessive fail safes, we can just be reasonably cautious and balance safety considerations with lowering costs. if it fails then a chimp dies, still thats not as bad as when an astronaut dies.

What if the dome was a plant with a transparent membrane? The dome plant has its photosynthesizing surface on the floor beneath the dome material. The best sort of live support systems are the low maintenance ones, if you need an army of life support maintenance workers to keep it running, it isn't worth it.

I think any terraforming effort is going to rely heavily on robotics and self-maintaining systems in any case.

Suppose the Mars of Ray Bradbury existed in an alternate history. What if the Martian Canals did exist and the atmosphere of the planet was breathable for humans and the climate was tolerable if somewhat harsh at times? But the mass and gravity of the planet remains the same. What would have had to have happened in the past to have made Mars this way? Just as an exercise in counterfactual speculation.

First question is what would Mars have to look like from a distance to have a breathable atmosphere and liquid water with sufficent greenhouse gases to keep the planet surface warm enought for liquid water to exist? Would Percival Lowell see what he imagined he saw, or would he see a bit more?

Why not? if the prize is the whole planet, then this may start a whole new space race and free up alot of private capital as well. You must remember that the US Government gets the money it has to spend on human space missions from private enterprise through taxation. Ordinarily a human space mission may seem like a throwaway for most private investors as their is no return. however some rich person might fancy himself as the founder of a new nation, so he might underwrite a colonization mission with his own funds, and leave a lasting legacy for is progeny. Generally the success of a Martian government depends on how open and inclusive it is. I'm willing to bet that if you increase the importance of a human Mars mission alot more people are going to attempt it. If its just flags and footprints and then good bye, then only governments may attempt this for bragging rights and propaganda. I believe the people whol colonize Mars first deserve a chief say in what sort of government it has, it would be a good idea if it was amendable so that it may continue to meet the needs of the current Martian population, but the initial Constitution should be decided by those who first colonize the planet whoever they may be. I think if properly motivated, their is a good chance the US may get their first, but who knows, other countries may think they have a good chance too as well as private corporations, why not? There is nothing that says private corporations can't start their own country. I do prefer one government for all of Mars rather than another planet with borders, competing ideologies and wars. Let the contest be decided by who gets there and establishes the first permanent human colony. The people who live on Mars, however they get there should always have the final say. Just because their sponsors give them a Constitution doesn't mean necessarily that the individuals they send their will automatically adopt it. I don't think the UN with all the Nations in the World should decide on this matter, I don't think they deserve too. Those that actually put up the money and colonize the planet should have a greater say, because without them nothing happens. The ability to get to Mars is a mark of sucess, and an indication that their system of government and the way they run their society is working. I think the capitalist democracies have a big leg up in the Mars race if sufficiently motivated.

How do you make a dedicated Moon Vehicle? Even the Apollo Capsule wasn't a dedicated Moon Vehicle, as it docked with Skylab and the Soyuz Capsule in 1975.

No two things in this world are ever equal, that goes for people as well. The sort of government decided for Mars will be determined by the founders of the Martian society. I think the most we have to agree to here is to decide on how the Martian Constitutional Convention is to be convened by the first settlers on Mars and on what is the minimum number of people on Mars required to hold a Constitional convention and decide on what form of government it is to have.

If I was one of the founders, I would want a system where each citizen gets on vote in choosing the government. Elected representatives should be required to run for reelection in a contested election if they are to retain their posts. The voting should be as inclusive as possible among the people living on Mars. Naturally the Nations participating will have an indirect influence on this process by choosing who to send to Mars. If the United States gets their first with colonists, then naturally I expect the government to resemble the structures of the United States, as it is in the US national interest to export its own form of government. Naturally if the colonists are to form a government there, they have to stay there. If the colonists settle, decide on a constitution and then vacate the planet leaving it unpopulated, then the work is undone and the process must begin over again from scratch. If the US or some other country really wants to set up a government there, it must be prepared to maintain a permanent settlement on Mars. I figure just be fair to other competing countries, the colonists must stay on Mars for the duration of one launch window to the next, if another set of colonists arrive, they can then participate in the constituional convention.

I found Kim Stanley Robinson's third book a little difficult to swallow, it was too preachy and political for me, sort of putting "Capitalism on Trial" so to speak based on its fictional representatives in the form of Transnats in the book waging war on each other. I would avoid socialism and too much regulation on economic activity if at all possible. Freedom should be maximised, and economic decision making should be up to individuals rather than governments. The less regulation and red tape the better. I think property rights should be sacrosanct. If Kim Stanley Robinson's book, all the investors on Earth got screwed. If the investors feel they won't get a return on their investment, private capital won't be forthcoming. Would I be willing to invest in Mars if I felt the Martian Government was going to eschew all debts and nationalize all private property, leaving me with nothing? No, I don't think so. My advice is to beware of Third World Government practises such as exproppriating private property or forcing "sales" to a restricted number and kind of buyers or to the government. All settlers on Mars should be guaranteed a return trip to Earth if it turns out that they can't support themselves economically on Mars, that means the price of a ticket should include the price of a return trip. Martian society in its infancy shouldn't be burdened with too many welfare obligations, all citizens should contribute, at least among the initial colonizers. Criminals should likewise be deported to Earth, so as the spare the Martian government the burden of maintaining a Penal system.

The Mars government should rightly be decided by those people that live there. By carefully selecting who to send to Mars, the colonization sponsor will therefore decide on that government. This is sort of an electoral system, each colonist is an "elector" sent by the mission sponsor to Mars. Each elector will probably be sent with a draft of the proposed Martian constitution and then a constitutional convention will be convened on Mars where each of the Martian colonists will decide on what sort of government to govern themselves with and each of the following colonists will then have to abide by the constitution set up by the founders, that seems like a logical way to proceed. If at any time the population of Mars drops to zero, then the constitution agreed upon becomes null and void, and the next set of Martian colonists then become the new founders and they then decide upon their own Martian constitution which all later colonists must legally abide by.

What do you think? Is that a logical and consistant plan or what? Those that can't make it to Mars should have no say in how its governed, that is strictly up to the people that live there. Now what's the minimum amount of people on Mars required to have a quarum? May I suggest a number like 7 or 9?