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#4301 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potlock I » 2006-08-30 12:33:36

That is because the Media is our source of information, they are the information gatherers, I am not, I just form my opnion base on the information they supply, and they better be as unbiased as possible, I don't want to hear about them doctoring their photographs by some other media source or bloggers, If I do, that means the professional Media is not being professional, and it seems to me that Reuters has been distorting the facts to make a terrorist group, Hezbollah look good, and to make Israel look bad. It is one thing for Israel to look bad because of its own actions, but quite another for it to look bad because the Media deliberately makes up false stories, doctors pictures and presents a biased spin to make Israel look bad. Its not a matter of my opinion versus their opinion, they are a supply of information, it is their responsibility to make sure their editorial opinion doesn't get mixed in with the facts they report. It is not up to Reuters to solve the Middle East conflict the way they think it should be solved, it is their responsibility to get the facts straight, if they can't do that, they don't deserve to be in business. You'd better believe that it makes a difference if the Media reports the facts as they are, or it they dress up the facts and make up facts of their own to support their position about what should be done about Israel.

#4302 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-30 12:20:08

I read this type article before
http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/chinese-orion.html
I'm not sure how much is true and how much is alarmist hype

but a Chinese Project Orion would certainly get people's attention

Whats the point of building an atomic bomb spaceship if all you want to do is nuke your enemy with those atomic bombs? Its much easier just to build the bombs alone, and not build the Orion spaceship. The kind of bombs you'd want to use in anycase would be thermo-nuclear devices, not the fission devices used by Orion. An Orion Starship would use thermo-nuclear devices, but that would be too big to launch from the ground.

Why would China build a spaceship to conquer just a pesky little Island in the Pacific? Don't they have naval warships that can reach that point. It seems that if Conquering Taiwan was their goal, it would make much more sense to build Naval Warships than an Orion spaceship. Orion spaceships are for conquering the Solar System, other parts of Earth can be attacked much more effectively without using spaceships propelled by atomic bombs. Besides an Orion spaceship can't stop our retaliation by conventional nuke tipped missiles and other delivery devices. If China ever decided to attack the United States with an Orion, it would find that Mutually Assured Destruction was still very much in effect.

Your right this is just military paranoia. The purpose of an Orion is to use weapons of war, fission bombs, to do something useful other than to wage war on our enemies, for some reason, peacenik groups find this distasteful, they'd rather just use nukes to blow up cities or to threaten to blow them up, I find this to be such a waste of their potential.

#4303 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-30 12:04:01

But if you were to launch Orion into orbit with chemical rockets, this limits the practical size of the pusher plate, and eliminates all its advantages over other nuclear rockets with far cheaper and less controvertial fuel. The NSWR engine could easily out-perform a "mini" Orion, and GCNR would match it. The former powerd by Uranium Nitrate or Bromide and water with the latter powerd by plain old liquid Hydrogen. Plus these options, particularly GCNR, would not have an extremely massive pusher plate and shock absorber, radically improving their payload versus Orion. Not to mention that if you could refuel either NSWR or GCNR rockets using water or Hydrogen from other planets, you could increase their payload even more. And did I mention that there would be no political "fallout" from putting a working nuclear bomb launcher in orbit?

Landing Orion is a bigger problem then you make it sound too, a steel pusher plate would literally melt from the heat of reentry, plus it is all the wrong shape if you intend to use it as a heat shield. Bringing a heat shield big enough to protect the whole vehicle, including the big wide pusher plate, would be quite heavy and eliminate even more of Orion's supposed efficiency.

If you intend to use the pusher plate as the heat shield, this has several more problems: it would probably have to be made with an ablative coating to protect it from the heat, but this coating would burn off from normal "operation" of the engine. Replacing and refurbishing this shield would be difficult as it would be quite radioactive from the neutron flux or embedded daughter particles from the bombs. X-33 managed to get away with a lighter reuseable shield because it was so light compared to its volume, the opposit of Orion.

It is also all the wrong shape, you would want a shield that is fairly convex as it faces the atmosphere, but to efficiently "catch" the plasma wave from the bombs it has to be concave. Making it concave would produce a "hot spot" in the middle that would melt through just about anything I bet, and increase the deceleration rate to dangerous levels.

Parachutes would also be a problem, as your speed drops from orbital the heat shield would be less effective at slowing you down, so you would need parachutes. Too bad the parachutes would have to be rediculously large to slow down something the weight of Orion. Certainly bigger than a sports stadium.

And thats just to get you down. Why should we bother with this again?

First of all, I didn't say anything about the chemical booster lifting the Orion into orbit. I said it would lift the Orion into space. If the Orion didn't begin working after being liften into space, it would fall back into the Atmosphere. Wasn't it you who said their was a factor of 32 in the amount of energy required to lift something into space as compared to boosting it into orbit? This fact makes the bottom stage much more recoverable as it doesn't have to bleed off orbital velocity as it drops back into the atmosphere. What the Orion needs it to be lifted into space and be given just enough time as it is falling so it can seperate from the bottom stage and activate its nuke drive. The bottom booster will probably want to get as far away from the Orion as quickly as possible before the bombs start going off. One the Orion bombs start pushing, the spaceship can increase in altitude from their and either attempt to go into orbit or attempt an escape trajectory, it needs to accelerate at more than one earth's gravity to make progress as the thing does not start out in Earth orbit.

The Orion would need to be lifted off its pad anyway before it can start its nuke drive, if its just sitting on the pad when it drops its nuke, the nuke will just hit the ground underneathe the pusher plate and explode. The explosion between the ground and the pusher plate would destroy the launch pad, producing all kinds of shrapnel, it would be too close to the pusher plate which wouldn't be able to take it, and the Orion spaceship would simply explode leaving a debis littered crater where the launch pad and spaceship used to be. I think the original scientists who worked on the Orion project recongized that the Orion would have to be lifted some distance off the pad before it could start its nuke drive, it was never envisions that nukes would get the ship off the pad.

The main consideration is how high the bottom stage should lift the Orion before the bombs start to go off. A booster can lift it a mile and the Orion could begin there. The booster could lift it 10 miles and the Orion could begin there. Or the Booster can lift it 100 miles, 200 miles, or 400 miles and the Orion can begin after the Booster cuts off and seperates. The important thing to remember is that when the Orion starts, it is not moving laterally with relationto the Earth's surface. The booster drops straight down to the Earth's surface, and the velocity at which it enters the Earth's atmosphere depends on the maximum altitude it obtains after engin cutoff. The Orion too would fall straight down if its bombs don't explode. That is the system I'm talking about.

And what about the Pusher Plate, could it not be flipped over so that convex becomes concave and vice versa. Both sides of the plate could be covered in heat shielding for instance. Also the Orion might use some of its bombs to bleed off some of its orbital energy before entering the Earth's atmosphere and thus the atmospheric stress on the rest of the spaceship. There are many ways to use the Orion principle, in a vacuum, it doesn't matter whether its speeding up or slowing down.

#4304 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-30 10:43:23

Orion's can't land eh? What is required to land on Earth's surface, lets look at the Saturn V space craft for example.  Saturn V had this huge stack of rocket stages to boost the vehicle to beyond Escape velocity to get them to the Moon, insert them into orbit, land on the Moon, take off again, and insert on a return to Earth trajectory. The Apollo capsule returned to Earth at about the same velocity that it left it at, only on return, it was just a command module and a capsule. What the apollo capsule needed to land was to reduce its incoming velocity to that of the surface of the Earth before it hit that surface, to do that, it didn't rely on a huge stack of rocket stages as it did for the outbound leg, instead, it relied on the Earth's atmosphere and parachutes to slow it down. Now why are you assuming that the Orion would uses a series of atomic bomb explosions to make a soft landing on Earth's surface, that assumption was never made that Saturn would use its rocket engines to land on Earth?

The trick to the Orion Spaceship is to get it down to Earth's surface so that it could be prepped for another mission, to do that it would not use its nukes, instead, it would rely on an areoshell and heat shield  and use the atmosphere to do most of its braking, and then as it approached the ground, it would use chemical landing rockets to make the soft landing. I would think that would be obvious. The bottom chemical stage that lifted the Orion Rocket in the first place into space, would be recovered fueled and prepped for Launch, the Orion would be placed atop of this booster and given another load of atomic bombs to use and the Orion would then be ready for another mission. Landing is not really the hard part as the Earth has an atmosphere to do most of the braking, the fuel for the landing rockets is miniscule compared for the fuel required to reach space and the atomic bombs required to reach orbit and beyond. All that's really needed for landing on Earth is a heat shield, a parachute and/or landing rockets. The Orion is fairly massive, so it will probably rely on only landing rockets to slow its fall at terminal velocity to make a soft landing on the ground.

#4305 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potlock I » 2006-08-30 10:23:21

The media cant help but be biased, they dont have half the information the military commanders do.

It is an accepted part of military doctrine that one must win the media war, so either the Media is massively biased against Israel or Israel believes they are and can't be bothered with a pointless media operation.

The Media shouldn't be clay in the hands of propagandists, Reuters should not have allowed itself to be manipulated by Hezbollah as it was, it shouldn't have allowed Hezbollah to present its story unchecked and unfiltered, it owes a responsibility to its readys to fact check. The facts are plan an simply, Hezbollah started the war and Hezbollah and the surrounding people suffered by it. Israel has an obligation to protect its people first, as do the governments of all nations, a secondary responsibility is to minimize collateral damage to civilian populations. What Hezbollah did was make it very difficult for Israel to protect its people without inflicting collateral damage on the surrounding Lebonese, Reuters under-reported this fact, it exagerated the collateral damage cause by Israel's airstrikes by doctoring photographs and producing false reports and accepting stories from Hezbollah uncritically, this was not unbiased reporting and did not serve the readers well, those readers that wanted the truth so they could evaluate the situation properly rather than be forced to swallow terrorist propaganda.

The obligation of all governments is always to protect their own people, the Reuters reports made the Israeli government's job in this very difficult by concentrating on real and false reports of Lebonese civilian deaths and minimizing the deaths in Israel, making it look like an act of Israeli agression, when the facts still are undeniable that Hezbollah started this war and are primarily responsible for what occurs thereafter, and they still have not released those three soldiers they have so unlwafully abducted. thr Reuters reports keep deemphasiing these indisputable facts, and emphasize only the collateral damage of the Lebonese, afte all this, I really can't trust Reuters anymore, they failed in their responsibility to their readers and acted as a propaganda outlet instead. The Media relations people were only doing their jobs to get maximum military benefit from their propaganda, but for Reuters to act like clay in the hands of one side, is simply inexcusable, their responsibility is to their readers to get out the truth, not for them to help one side to win in this conflict.

#4306 Re: Civilization and Culture » Creating the Outdoors Indoors » 2006-08-30 10:07:21

If we have a do not touch attitude toward Antartica, we are not going to get much practise for a Mars colony, I'll tell you that now. Antartica is the closet thing within easy react to being an Alien planet, and Alpine meadow is not or even high on the slopes of Mount Everest. Antartica's remoteness is good practice for the remoteness of Mars. If we only send scientists to Mars like were doing with Antartica, then only a few will go, those with high foreheads who want to do research but otherwise do not touch or affect their environment, and if we do that with Mars, Mars will do us very little good. Likewise we can exploit and mine the asteroids or we can only study them, and say, "gee this will look facinating in our next edition astronomy textbook. My ultimate goal is to have average people going to Mars and traveling and living is space, not a few people with high intelligence and several degrees, yes, that is the way things will start out, but I want things to progress from there, not to remain stagnant. If only a few people live in Space and on Mars and most live on Earth still, what good does that do us? We must expand our range of habitat, the Mars colonies must be self-supporting. The Antiartic bases are self-supporting, the are taxpayer supported, they bring their own fuel, their own food and everything they need to live from outside, and that is poor practice for a Mars colony.

If we really want to do an Antartic colony right, we'd allow it an economic means to support itself, we'd allow it self government too, and families, and schools and everything else that makes a human society, and all the while being mindful of protecting the natural environment that is there.

Economics is not Evil. Besides if given a choice between protecting the sparse ecology of the Antartic interior or the Amazon Rainforest, I'd always choose the rainforest. I consider the rainforest to be a more valuable contributor to Earth's biosphere that the frozen white wastelands of Antartica.. I don't thing the glaciers of antartica or the lickens and microbes that grow inder the surfaces or rocks and inside the ice is much of a contributor toward the removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, do you? Also remember the project Biosphere II, they included a desert biome because the Earth had deserts also, but I don't think wasting that space for desert really help in recycling the atmosphere so the people inside it could breath. As far as I'm concerned, the more plants producing oxygen, the better, bare rock doesn't contribute a thing. I value the more valuable part of the ecology over the more barren parts. If people found a means to live in the less hostiptable places on Earth, they'd free up more room for the more lush portions to grow, I'd think that would be obvious.

#4307 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Communism - Just like Star Trek » 2006-08-30 09:40:42

That is half the point of going, to try out new political experiments, just as the American colonies experimented with new ideas of constitutionalism and republics.

American democracy and a number of others have descended to mob rule in a lot of cases, where 51% is considered a mandate from heaven. Early democratic leaders and philosophers considered that a law should not be passed without 80% or so consensus. If 49% of your population objects to your shiny new law, is it really a good law?

51% or even 50.01% is a good idea when a leader must be chosen and decided upon quickly. If half the population wants one leader and the other half wants another, choosing the leader might as well be a coin toss, but it is better to choose a leader than not to choose a leader, the consequences of not making a choice or endless squabbling are higher. Laws require the passage by two legislative bodies and the approval of the chief executive with the possibility of the legislature overruling the chief executive's veto, I think that's a far cry from 51% approval for law passage, I think the hurdle is higher than that for My country at least.

Open democracy has congealed in the US into two opposed mobs who vote based on allegiance rather than ideology. Sentiments such as "my parents belonged to the party, I was raised in the party and I will die in the party" are commonplace.

That is something Monarchists used to say when disparaging democracy and championing the divine right of Kings to rule in the name of God.

Also pure capitalism died in America in 1929. Free Market ideas are still opposed with trade organisations and tariffs being used as instruments of less-lethal warfare. Anti-trust legislation was introduced because the 'invisible hand of the market' does not literally exist. Without government oversight a lot of markets tend towards monopolies.

Capitalism is the motive force, but what happens if you launch a rocket without a guidance system? Suppose you launched a rocket without fins, thrusters or anything else to stear that rocket, suppose you just trusted that rocket to know where its supposed to go, will that get you to Mars? No, but you still need the motive force of that rocket to get you there. if you have a rocket that is all guidance systems but no rocket motor, you are just going to sit on the launch pad and not go anywhere. Capitalism requires, guidance, direction, and regulation, but not too much of those. Generally speaking the market should serve the people, individual purchases should be the main driver of the economy and what is produced, not some central plan, too much regulation weighs down an economy, just like too much payload weighs down a rocket and may prevent it from reaching Mars. You need to have respect for all parts of the rocket, the motor the guidance system, the engines must be sufficient to get you there and the payload must not be too taxing. Everything must be in balance for things to work right and for the mission to be accomplished, capitalistic economies are much the same in that respect. Capitalism is the prime motive force in an economy, you don't get that same motive force under socialism. Socialism is all controls and very little pep. I don't expect Capitalism to know where its going, but I do respect the power Capitalism has to drive an economy in whatever direction it is steered in. If you abolish capitalism because your expect it to do something it wasn't designed for, then your going to end up with a stagnant economy. You tax the capitalistic economy a little so you have resources to work with to solve societies other problems that Capitalism won't solve, you don't have the government take over the economy and attempt to replace capitalism with itself, the problems in society don't require that, and that is an overkill solution and you'd be strangling the goose that lays the golden eggs. That goose is not responsible for how its gold is spend, that is how I view Capitalism, you mustn't over tax it, and if you don't it will yield greater resources for you to spend on societies problems later on. Socialists don't have patience for this, they want all the economic pie now, and they don't care about growing the economy, sacrificing the future to solve the problems of the present.

I think that maybe there is room for new ideas. Mars is one of the few opportunites to freely try them out. Maybe we can figure out a way to encourage vibrant democracies or freemarkets that dont tend towards monopolies or feudalistic company structures. Who knows, that why went want to go to Mars, to try new things. If we wanted to be repressed by encrusted republics we would stay here.

Beware of new ideas though, the Russians were not properly cautious during their revolution and look what happened. The American Founding Fathers were very much afraid of the revolution they were fostering, they rebelled because they were backed into a corner by Great Britian, but they were very suspicious of a central authority and very much distrustful to giving too much power to General Washington, because of that distrust, they designed a constitution that provided for the balance of powers between the branches of government and as a result we have a long lasting successful republic. The Russians attitide was that anything was better than their Czar, they got "anything" and look what happened.

#4308 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-30 00:47:21

I can't tell if you're bragging or complaining about China.

I am stating what China might do. Why should I complain about China, its part of the nature of Empires to want to expand. All the territory outside of Earth is uncontested, their are no armies to defeat out their, you merely need to develop the transportation system and get there first and in great numbers, China is not hindered as much by public opinion as we are. If we have a carefully plodding space program, I believe China will try to leap over us. Prior to China's entry into the space race, NASA was pretty much alone is manned space efforts, Russia was bankrupt and was basically selling launch services rather than doing anything on its own. NASA was in the driver's seat as far as Manned space is concerned. With China's launch of astronauts into orbit, now that is no longer true. China likes to do big things, it is building huge dams, it has built the first commerically operated Maglev train, I think it very much would like to get to Mars ahead of the USA, all this has much to do with the ego of China's leaders rather than specifically what the Chinese people want, althought they are very patriotic. Their is no opposition leader to say that manned space is a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere, the Chinese leadership doesn't face that competiton. The nation that seizes the Space bull by the horns will have lasting influence in the Solar System from that point on.

#4309 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-30 00:35:54

Economically Devastating eh? You think their will be no return on the investment which allows easier access to the Solar System. You know the Orion, can not only reach the Moon and Mars, it can also reach Titan, it would open up the whole Solar System more or less! There is alot of material in the Whole Solar System. Investing in a way to get off of Earth is not money down the drain. I don't see those timid steps into space as sure footed, I just seem them as a lack of progress. I think the way to get into space has been before our eyes all along, but we just refused to look at it because of the anti-nuclear taboo. Instead of trying to deal with the problems that nuclear propulsive systems would cause and try to solve them, se simply refuse to deal with them period and have been using the much more expensive throw-away high performance chemical rockets instead. The Venture Star was to be made out of Carbon Composites, so 90% of its mass could be fuel, and we ran into problems with making fuel tanks out of such composites to hold liquid oxygen. By contrast, the upperstage of the Orion wouldn't hold cryogentic liquid fuels, but would hold a magazine of minature atomic bombs instead in the 1 kiloton range of explosive yield. The Orion would have been made out of ordinary steel.

#4310 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potlock I » 2006-08-30 00:21:57

Its not so much that Israel or the other side manipulate the Media as it is that the International Media has a built in bias. I can't think of any other reason why one side should attack and then complain about being the victim and have the International Media go along with them trying to tailors their stories and pictures to show the terrorists in a favorable light. The Media should know better than to be manipulated or allow themselves to be manipulated, their job is to tell the truth, not to spread propaganda for either side. The fact that the side which started this war is portrayed as the victim by the media just goes to show you how biased the media is.

#4311 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-08-29 14:21:44

Yang Liwei Rocket wrote:

or call for suicidal bombings through London? it is impossible to bring democracy to these places, and is it any wonder there is so much crap in the world when a good chunk of the earth's population is offended by what is a silly cartoonist joke. There is no one-size-fits-all democracy and even if there were I doubt Islam and Democracy could so easily coexist

It is difficult to be allies with someone we can't coexist with, are you really surprised that we would side with Israel rather than side with the Arab states against Israel?
We stick by our allies because we want our allies to stick by us, if we sell them out to this group that is hostile to democracy because they got oil to sell, where does that really get us?
I'd rather be allies with Israel and pay more for oil. Israel at least is a democracy. If the arabs don't believe in democracy, in a sense they are also telling us that we should not listen to them, since only in a democracy do their opinions matter. If they say, "democracy is bad", translated it means, "Our opinions are bad, don't listen to us."

#4312 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Communism - Just like Star Trek » 2006-08-29 14:13:35

Why are you looking for alternatives to a standard republican form of government with elected representatives? On the small scale, you can have direct participatory Democracy where citizens can vote legislation directly rather than acting through elected representatives, what else do you really need? Why do you have to experiment with different forms of communal ownership? We are only talking about colonizing a different planet, there is no evidence that human nature will change if we change locations.

Capitalism works, democracy works, if we are trying to tackle the problem of settling another planet, why should we attempt to solve problems that don't need solving? Life on Mars will be hard enough as it is.

#4313 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-08-29 13:39:41

Who makes a better ally, Israel or the Arab states?

Tough question here's another : who make a better buddy,
a cocaine junkie who flys an aircraft or drunken alcoholic who captains a large ship ?

I don't think you can compare Israel and a few rag-tag nut Arabs with the UK/French/Chinese/American/Russian position during WW2,
during world war 2 the Entire World was at War.

The Allies were fighting a powerful Axis of fascists they had a mighty fascist army that were sending million to gas chambers or conducting bio experiments on villages and killing pows.

The religious zealots from both the Jewish and Arab side had given the Middle East nothing but pain,
hezbollah and other kamikaze Arabs have a useless fighting force, they have had little funding, almost no technology ( Hitler's antique V2s are far better than any useless Arab device ), they want to kill as many people as possible but they are no match for Israel

Israel is no hero, a number of Arabs might still protest saying its state may not even be legit - imagine the USA winning their freedom from the British Empire but rather than forming a United States were only to then claim Paris/London/Rome as their Holyland because some old book said it to be so. They were given their jewish state but then became an aggressor have gone to war with every single one of their neighbors, their army have bombed even children's hospitals,
sharon was a war criminal and even a formal israeli inquiry found him responsible for massacres, they have even killed American aid workers.


I think part of the reason so many Arabs are anti-American is because of the United States unconditional support for Israel and the Jewish lobby in the US,
that's right I said the word 'Jew' - shock/horror !
After all the aid and money that is poured into this Middle East region people are still being murdered, perhaps we should just build a big wall around the middle east and let it go rotting back into the darkages

That is cart before the horse, one of the reasons we support Israel is that the Arabs are so anti-American and the Israelis are not. Arabs have oil, Israel does not, the Arabs have embargoed the west before, they have taken hostages of Americans and murdered Americans, the Israelis have done no similar thing. The reason why Arabs hate jews so much is because the Arab governments have given them propaganda to distract them from wanting freedom, they need an eternal enemy to fight against, and the assumption being that once all the Jews are gone all their problems will be solved as well, and there is no way to prove this short of wiping out the Jews, so they keep on trying and because they have yet to succeed, no one in the Arab world will say they are wrong. The Germans had their eternal enemy too in the 1930s and 1940s, "it was all because of the Jews" they said, the Islamo-facists inherited this Ideology and gave it an Islamic cast.

The bottom question is simple, if we want allies, we have to be loyal to them, If we sell them out because their opponents have oil, then we will have no allies when we need them, this is a lesson the French have yet to learn.

#4314 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-29 13:13:02

Yes, but could China build one? China has nuclear weapons and is in the process of expanding its nuclear arsenal. Seems to me that China sould easily have an expanding supply of fission bombs because it is building the factories to make them anyway Orion is not a long term solution, but it does get a longerm space transportation system out the door. You say that Orion has to be very big to get out the door. Doesn't that also mean that it would be very good at delivering a mass driver to the Moon's surface? A Mass Driver is very big and if there is one ship that could get one to the Moon's surface, it would be the Orion. Nuclear weapons are dangerous, and you don't want to rely on them long term. In another threat I mentioned using a mass driver as a means to propel suborbiters in space up to orbital velocities using a mass driver hurtling lunar material to just above the Earth's atmosphere. If the suborbiter can get above the low point and has a means of vaporizing the incomming pellet stream, the gases produced can propel the suborbiter into orbit, but this sceme requires that first massive infrastructure be placed on the Moon first, and to do that, you need a heavy robust lifter and mover such as the bomb propeller Orion spaceship.

As for being expensive, China has the worlds fastest growing economy, if that trend continues, it will shortly be one of the World's leading superpowers, I'm sure it will be able to afford to build an Orion. If the Orion fails, the the Chinese build another one. The Chinese have expended more human life in the Korean War, I doubt it would make such a fuss about an Orion spaceship that fails, it will most likely learn from that failure and build another one if its determined to get ahead of the US in a space transportation system.

China is also good in public private partnerships, the nature of Orion virtually requires that it be operated by the government. China has a number of public owned companies that are run as if they were capitalistic enterprises, these engage in joint projects with foreign companies and are used to acquire western technology that it otherwise not have access to. The Chinese People's Army also engages in manufacturing work and makes items for sale to places like Walmart. I'm sure with that experience, the Chinese would be well prepared to operate the Orion efficiently and profitably while keeping the nuclear weapons it uses under tight military control.

There are many schemes for cheap access to space that first require lifting massive infrastructure there, Orion seems like a good spaceship to get the ball rolling.

Orion will never happen. The countries of the world will not let anyone lift nuclear bombs into space no matter what the reason, no matter who does it, no matter what the controls. It's far too easy for someone to deliberately drop one of those bombs onto a city.

The countries of the world don't seem too concerned about Iran getting nuclear weapons do they. If anyone is crazy enough to use nuclear weapons in a terrorist attack, it would be Iran, yet the nations of the world aren't doing much to stop them except calling for more negotiation. If Iran can aquire nuclear weapons and the world is mostly concerned about the US invading them to stop them, won't that lead the Chinese to believe that they could also get away with building an Orion spaceship as well? Why should the world suddenly develop backbone in this case where it hasn't in the case of Iran or North Korea. I think the most China would have to worry about is the world sending out negotiators while at the same time ruling out the use of force and the imposition of sanctions, they will want to give negotiations a chance to work, and they negotiate and negotiate and negotiate, and China will stall and stall and stall until it builds and launches its Orion Spaceship, I can easily envision China getting away with that, can't you?

If the worlds western democracies are too timid to conquer the Solar System, then China will conquer it instead.

#4315 Re: Civilization and Culture » Creating the Outdoors Indoors » 2006-08-29 09:42:57

Yes they could, it costs money to keep people in Antartica doing geology work and such. If they are working for the government, thats find so long as the government pays the bills. Governments are subject to the vagarities of politics however, and the scientists at those bases are at the mercy of annual budgets. The government decides how many people to send to Antartica. If a Mars colony turned out to be just another type of Antartic base, I would consider it to be a failure as a colony. A colony is where people live, where they raise families, and it is a place the the colonists call home. None of the Antartic scientists call Antartica home, they just work there and they bunk there counting the days until they can see their families again. I think Mars should be someplace different from what Antartica is now. I think if we want to attempt colonizing Mars, we should try an Antartic colony first. Now all colonies need an economic basis so they can support themselves, the Virginia colony did, they grew tobacco, and I'm sure Antartica will have an economic basis to support a colony too. A group of people that live there just because the government pays them to is not a colony.

#4316 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potlock I » 2006-08-29 09:33:43

Becareful not to over-generalize about religion. The reason I use words such as Islamo-facist is because I don't want to over-generalize about Islam, I wouldn't want to take that a step further and over-generalize about religion. I think too many Muslims over-generalize about their religion, too many of them seem willing to accept the Islamo-facists into their fold, witness the election of Hamas in the Palestinian Territories, no peaceful Muslim would vote for a violent factions such as Hamas, but perhaps some Muslims don't understand the difference between peaceful Islam and the Islamo-facists. In any case Islamo facism is not a fringe movement like the David Koreshites were, they have too much political power, they control armies and they push the Lebanese government around, I would not call that a fringe like those violent cults based on Christianity. My brother was once in a cult, not a violent one, but a very controlling one, we got him out, but what I've seen of Islamo-facism is very similar to other cults I've heard about.

I don't think the Israelis used cluster bombs, did you get your information about that from Reuters? I don't trust Reuters anymore ever since they included those doctored photos that included extra smoke to make the damage caused by the Israelis look all that much worse, I don't like those recycled bodies they used in photos either or the same victims bemoaning the destruction of a number of their "different homes" by the Israelis. And there is the fact that once building collapsed 6 hours after the Israelis struck it because it was being used as a launch site. Naturally the Islamic World swallowed all this phony propaganda hook line and sinker, and the Israelis backed down at the insistance of the Bush Administration despite the fact that the NEws coverage was doctored and biased against the Israelis.

So now the big picture is, an aggressor can attack a neigboring country and then get its victim to appologize for defending itself by manipulation the media that sympathises with the attackers. What happens to Israel may happen to us next, that is why I am sensitive to this subject. The French for example were all alone when they had those muslim riots in Paris, it was ok for them when the Israelis were attacked, them being "only jews" and such, when France gets attacked, they have no friends now, no real friends anyway because they were not loyal to their allies when those allies were attacked. It is the same principle that applies to the United States and its allies, the US defends its allies because it expects that loyalty to be returned when the US comes under attack.

I don't believe in abandoning Israel simply because it appears in many a Muslim's crosshairs. If America can be bullied into abandoning its allies, then it deserves no allies just like France does. Nothing against the French as a people, but their government has been very self-serving in the past, and some day, I believe they will reap what they have sowed in ill will. One day the Arabs won't have oil to sell, and the relationships the French have made with radical Arab states won't matter, only those people who remember how France had abandoned them in favor of oil will matter.

#4317 Re: Human missions » The First to Mars - Who will it be? » 2006-08-29 08:37:11

Ever hear the story of the Tortose and the Hare? If we wait long enough the Chinese will catch up! I wouldn't be too relaxed about them, especially if we are to cautious and careful and the Chinese are more risk takers.

What if NASA follows its Semi-Direct plan and China does a Mars Direct Mission?

What if NASA goes to the Moon first and China goes straight to Mars?

What if China is willing to lose astronauts in a mission, find out what the problem was and then send another mission right away? If a mission fails, China doesn't have to justify itself to taxpayers. China has sent men to their death before, if a Chinese astronaut dies in space, their space program won't pause for very long to find out what went wrong, they'll just fix the immediate problem and send another mission, no hand wringing, no soul searching, no self-evaluation. Maybe some heads would roll, but China would not let that slow them down for too long.

#4318 Re: Human missions » Ares and Ares » 2006-08-29 08:25:02

What about the atomic fission bombs used in an Orion spaceship? I think they were supposed to have a yield of about one tenth of the Hiroshima bomb.. Say you have a conventional stage that lifts it up to a 400 mile altitude and detatched then it starts using its pulse units to go higher and to achieve orbit.

#4319 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Earth to LEO - discuss » 2006-08-28 23:44:45

I was thinking more on this. Seems to me, the projectiles don't have to hit the ship directly. What if the suborbiter ejected a stream of smaller projectiles behind it and they were positioned so as to intercept the incoming stream of larger projectiles. the collision of the two objects would vaporize them both producing a cloud of gas headed toward the suborbiter. The gas cloud would hit the suborbiter before it had a chance to spread to much and it would accelerate the suborbiter forward and upward. The suborbiter would have a supply of these little pellets, they wouldn't have to be accelerated too much, just enough so that they get in the way of the incoming pellet stream.

Later on, a more advanced transportation system can develop from this basic idea. A Spaceship can land on the Moon, load up with lunar rock and dust, and then liftoff taking the lunar material to L1, from L1 it would eject a stream of lunar material on an intercept course with a suborbiter whose lift off is timed to intercept that incoming stream. The lunar materials fall toward Earth would accelerate it to almost the local escape velocity. Same deal as before, the suborbiter ejects a smaller stream of its own pellets to intercept the incoming stream of lunar pellets and the momentum of the resultant gas stream pushes the suborbiter into orbit.

Later on as a third stage, as Mass Driver is assembled on the Moon's surface, it accelerates a stream of lunar material past escape velocity and opposite the Moon's orbital motion around the Earth, this causes a stream of lunar material to fall toward Earth, all that kinetic energy gathered by that fall is transfered to the suborbiter by the same method I mentioned before boosting it into orbit. In this way, the Moon could really be a stepping stone on the way to colonizing Mars, and best of all, this plan does not rely on space elevators.

#4320 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Earth to LEO - discuss » 2006-08-28 14:04:50

There must be something you can do with suborbital flights. What about intercepting an object in orbit? What if the suborbital spaceship collides with an object in orbit and the object in orbit is small and it hits the suborbiter in a certain place so that the suborbiter survives the collision. you can transfer velocity from the object in orbit to the suborbital object. One way to insert an object into orbit is with a high velocity cannon. I heard that some cannons can fire projectiles ar orbital velocity. So a cannon fires a shell at a suborbiter and the suborbiter maneuvers in front of it.

#4321 Re: Terraformation » Projected Marsian Population? » 2006-08-28 13:37:32

LO

The idea of limiting the population growth makes sense. If we want the quality of life for all people, then yes, the population shouldn't grow too fast. In K.S. Robinson's "Blue Mars" people could live a very long life due to a new treatment but another procedure forced them to have only 1 baby per family. The rights could be bought/sold. At first I felt it was weird and cruel but then I thought it would probably be the right thing to do if the Earth's population reached 20 billion.

Before telling such things, U'd better take notice that world population projection by demographs has completly changed,
hardly up to more than 8 billion by 2050, and world population could decrease after 2050.
This because increasing urbanisation equalizes natality behaviour,
urban people do naturally limit the number of children to an average number of two, under the generation renewal rate.

You know why? Because the Male spends so much time in the city fighting traffic and the cars move so slow, that by the time he finally gets home, his wife is asleep, hence fewer children.  lol
2 children per family is under generation renewal because of accidental and disease losses.
Also take notice that Africa's population long range demographic projection has been made without AIDS devastations coming on.
Last thing, don't ever eclude burst of some pandemia...

#4322 Re: Terraformation » Desert Mars - Will Terraformed Mars be largely desert? » 2006-08-28 13:33:04

A Mars covered with jungles defies expectations. Whenever people think of Mars they think Desert planet. If its covered with jungle with monkey's making long leaps from tree branch to tree branch, some people are going to say, "this couldn't be Marsm its unMarslike." Alot of our expectations of what Mars was supposed to be like was shaped by telescopic observations of the planet before anyone actually knew what was there. If Mars was covered in Jungle, it wouldn't be red. A Red Mars would have a lower carrying capacity, one might say, "Why terraform Mars if you are going to leave it as a desert? If your going to go to the trouble to make the atmosphere breathable, why not make it more habitable as well? Compared to the initial work, making Mars into a Jungle doesn't require much additional effort.

#4323 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Mercury - Is anyone this crazy? » 2006-08-28 13:25:57

What if you placed a sun shade at the L1 point between the Sun and Mercury, probably slightly further away that that so you can uses a solar sail as the sunshade and use radiation pressure to maintain a constant distance from mercury. In the center of that sunshade, you cut a hole of the prcies diameter so that it presents a yellow disk that when viewed from the surface of Mercury appears the same size as does the Sun from Earth. This solves the problem of Mercury's carying distance from the sun. Normally the Sun would appear to get bigger as Mercury got closer and would appear to get smaller as Mercury drew further away. As seen through the hole in the sunshade, the "Sun" would always appear to be the same size. the Surface of mercury would cool.

In some respects, Mercury's lack of an atmosphere is an advantage. You can spin up the planet by positioning rockets, mass drivers or whatever directly on the surface and pointing the sideways. Fire those rockets long enough and you will increase the rotation rate of Mercury to 24 hours, and then after you do that you can add the atmosphere.

#4324 Re: Terraformation » Terrform Venus » 2006-08-28 13:13:53

The escape velocity from Venus is ~10 km/s. In order to eject all the CO2 via "simply overheating it" -- you need to "simply" warm up to about 180 000 degrees Kelvin.

If you do that, you might as well reshape the continents as your going to melt the crust, then you will have to shade the planet and wait for it to cool, and then you can work on molding the planet's hardening crust in the shape of Earths continents and fill the ocean basins. Reminds me of the Movie the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

You know so long as you melt the planet down, why not take it apart and place it in its proper orbit. Just take globs of it and transport it over to the Earth-Sun L5 point and dump it right there. Dump enough of Venus in that spot and you can build yourself a slightly smaller replica of Earth out of that material. Now would you call that terraforming or planet building?

#4325 Re: Meta New Mars » Mars Calendar » 2006-08-28 12:09:08

Ever think of publishing one? We now have enough pictures from the Mars rovers to have a picture for each month in the Martian Year.

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