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#351 Re: Meta New Mars » kbd512 Postings » 2026-01-28 15:34:37
Here’s a first‑cut volume budget so you can see what’s missing, not just feel it.
Rough volume budget for 1,000‑person ring habitat
Category Basis / assumption Area (m²) Volume (m³)
Crew quarters 250 × 4‑person units @ 125 m³ each – 31,250
Hygiene & laundry 1.0–1.5 m²/person @ 2.5 m height 1,000–1,500 2,500–3,750
Galley + mess Seats for 1/3 crew at once (~0.8–1.0 m²/seat) + kitchen 600–800 1,500–2,000
Medical (incl. support) 50 monitored beds @ 23–28 m² + OR, imaging, support 2,000–2,500 5,000–6,250
Exercise & recreation ~1.5–2.0 m²/person shared 1,500–2,000 3,750–5,000
Workspaces & labs Offices, control, labs, shops (~1.0–1.5 m²/person) 1,000–1,500 2,500–3,750
Greenhouse / crops Your estimate – 40,000
Life support machinery CO₂, O₂, water, waste, tanks, thermal plant – 5,000–10,000
Power & distribution Switchgear, batteries, control rooms – 2,000–4,000
Logistics & spares Warehousing, cargo, spares, tools – 3,000–6,000
Waste management Sorting, storage, processing – 1,000–2,000
Social / “soft” spaces Lounges, small rooms, quiet areas 500–1,000 1,250–2,500
Circulation & nodes Corridors, nodes, airlocks (~30–40% of net spaces) – 25,000–35,000
Structural & service voids Walls, insulation, ducts, cable chases (~10–20%) – 10,000–20,000
Very roughly, that puts you in the ballpark of:
Net functional volume (rooms, greenhouses, etc.):
~95,000–110,000 m³
Plus circulation + structure overhead:
another ~35,000–55,000 m³
Total ring pressurized volume:
? On the order of 130,000–160,000 m³, not 31,250 m³.
So the big things you were “missing” in the original 4‑crew‑quarters × 250 calculation are:
Circulation and geometry overhead
Corridors, nodes, airlocks, and the inefficiency of packing rectangles into a curved ring.
All the non‑bunk functions
Hygiene, galley/mess, medical, exercise, workspaces, social spaces.
Industrial‑scale systems volume
Life support machinery, power distribution, thermal control, waste management.
Logistics, spares, and growth margin
Warehousing and spare parts for a remote, 1,000‑person outpost.
Structural and service voids
The “hidden” volume in walls, floors, ducts, and cable runs.
If you’d like, next step could be: pick a ring radius and width, and see what cross‑section and length you actually need to enclose ~150,000 m³—then we can talk about how many decks, how wide the corridors are, and where those 4‑person units realistically fit in the curve.
“Volume tables” can mean a few different things depending on the context, and your earlier message was deeply technical—so I want to make sure we’re talking about the same concept.
In engineering, architecture, and life‑support design, volume tables usually refer to one of these:
? 1. A table listing the internal volumes of habitats or structures
Used to calculate:
Air mass
Required air changes per hour
CO₂ scrubbing load
Heating/cooling load
Pressurization requirements
For example:
Structure Internal Volume (m³) Notes
Habitat Module A 8,000 Crew quarters
Greenhouse 20,000 High humidity
Workshop 12,000 High ventilation load
Total 40,000 Used for life‑support sizing
This is the kind of table you’d use to size fans, radiators, and CO₂ scrubbers.
? 2. A table of volume conversions
Used when switching between ft³, m³, liters, gallons, etc.
Unit Equivalent
1 m³ 35.3147 ft³
1 ft³ 0.0283168 m³
1 gallon (US) 3.78541 L
1 L 0.001 m³
This is common when mixing NASA data (often in English units) with engineering calculations (usually SI).
? 3. A table of volume requirements per person
Used in habitat design to estimate:
Minimum breathable air volume
Comfortable living volume
Emergency shelter volume
Typical values:
Category Volume per Person
Absolute minimum (ISS‑like) 25–30 m³
Comfortable long‑term 100–150 m³
Spacious / Earth‑like 300–500 m³
Your earlier example used a 125,000 m³ structure for 1,000 colonists → 125 m³ per person, which fits the “comfortable long‑term” category.
? 4. A table of volume flows
Used for ventilation and air‑handling calculations.
For example:
Flow Rate Equivalent
1 CFM 0.0004719 m³/s
36,000 CFM 16.99 m³/s
15 ACH (air changes/hr) for 4,078 m³ 61,170 m³/hr
This is exactly the kind of table you’d use to compute the 36,000 CFM fan load you mentioned.
? 5. A table of volume for storage (water, gases, food)
For example:
Resource Daily Use (1,000 people) Required Storage Volume
Water ~2,146 gallons/day ~8.1 m³/day
O₂ ~210 kg/day ~150 m³ at 1 atm
N₂ ~780 kg/day ~600 m³ at 1 atm
This is essential for sizing tanks and ISRU plants.
If you tell me which type of “volume table” you meant, I can build the exact table you need.
You might be asking for:
the volume table for the 125,000 m³ habitat,
the volume table for air changes,
or the volume table for water/CO₂ processing.
Just point me toward the one you want to work with next.
#352 Re: Meta New Mars » kbd512 Postings » 2026-01-28 15:34:12
We need to be careful when using ISS numbers as they are based on a crew of typical 7 with short duration of more.
I did put your and my post through copilot and we have a long ways to go. for numbers as the fact that we are in a circular ring makes for much volume that due to a square layout is a problem.
You’re asking the right question—“what did we miss?”—because the big gap isn’t a single number, it’s a whole layer of overhead you haven’t turned into volume and power yet.
Let me pull it together and show you what’s still “un-costed” in your ring/Quonset concept.
1. Net vs gross volume
Sleeping volume vs habitat volume:
You sized 4‑person quarters at
125 m^3
2. For 1,000 crew, that’s 250 units →
31,250 m^3
3. That’s net bunk volume. What’s missing is the gross volume:
Walls, structure, insulation, MMOD/radiation shielding
Ducts, pipes, cable runs
Access corridors, stairways/ladders, airlocks, nodes
Once you add circulation and systems, net habitable volume is typically only a fraction of total pressurized volume.
2. Circulation, layout, and geometry penalties
Hallways and nodes:
Main spines, cross‑corridors, junction nodes, airlock lobbies, elevator/lift shafts (if any).
Egress routes sized for emergency evacuation of 1,000 people, not just “enough to walk through.”
Curved ring / Quonset geometry:
Rectangular modules in a curved ring waste edge volume.
You’ll have wedge-shaped gaps, unusable corners, and “dead” spaces that still need to be pressurized and serviced.
Doors and pressure breaks:
Every compartment boundary, fire zone, and pressure zone adds doors, vestibules, and clearances.
Those doors and vestibules have non‑trivial volume and lengthen the ring.
Right now, you’ve counted rooms but not the “streets” between them.
3. Support spaces you listed but haven’t volumized
You already named most of these—what’s missing is turning them into square meters and cubic meters:
Sanitation and hygiene:
Toilets, showers, sinks, grey/black water plumbing chases.
Central vs distributed bathrooms changes both volume and complexity.
Laundry and linen:
Washers, dryers, folding/clean storage, dirty storage, carts, and circulation space.
Galley and mess:
Kitchens, prep areas, dishwashing, food staging, serving lines, seating for some fraction of 1,000 at once.
Dry, refrigerated, and frozen storage sized for your resupply cadence.
Exercise and recreation:
Treadmills, resistance machines, free weights, VR/rec rooms, open space for group activities.
These are big volume hogs if you want them to be genuinely useful for 1,000 people.
Medical:
You quoted ~23–28 m² per monitored bed. For 50 beds, that’s ~1,150–1,400 m².
Add OR(s), imaging, pharmacy, lab, waiting, storage, staff areas, decontamination, and isolation rooms.
Greenhouse / food production:
You already estimated ~40,000 m³ for crops. That’s larger than the sleeping quarters volume.
You still need: nutrient mixing rooms, seed storage, tools, maintenance access, and buffer corridors.
All of these need to be explicitly sized and then placed in the ring geometry.
4. Systems volume (the “machine rooms” of the colony)
You’ve got good power and mass numbers for life support hardware—but not their physical footprint:
Life support equipment rooms:
CO₂ scrubbers, O₂ generation, water processors, tanks, pumps, compressors, filters, spare units.
Redundancy (N+1 or N+2) multiplies both mass and volume.
Power systems and distribution:
Switchgear, inverters, transformers, batteries, control rooms, cable trunks.
If you’re using nuclear, geothermal, or solar‑thermal, you also need heat‑to‑power conversion plant and interface spaces.
Thermal control:
Heat exchangers, coolant loops, pumps, manifolds, expansion tanks, radiator interface hardware.
Internal ducting and plenum spaces for air distribution.
Waste management:
Sorting, compacting, storage, recycling, and possibly incineration or feedstock processing.
1,000 people over years means industrial‑scale trash handling, not a closet with a bin.
These are often stacked in “utility decks” or dedicated rings that can easily rival or exceed the volume of living spaces.
5. Redundancy, spares, and logistics
Spares storage:
Filters, pumps, valves, electronics, suits, tools, structural repair materials, medical supplies, etc.
For a remote colony, spare parts inventory is huge—think warehouse, not cabinet.
Logistics and cargo:
Incoming cargo staging, unpacking, inspection, and distribution.
Outgoing waste or return cargo storage.
Emergency infrastructure:
Refuge rooms, extra air and water tanks, emergency rations, firefighting gear, emergency power and comms.
None of that is in the 125 m³/crew‑quarters math yet.
6. Human factors and “soft” space
This is the stuff that keeps 1,000 people sane over years:
Quiet zones and privacy:
Sound‑isolated areas, small meeting rooms, private work pods.
Workspaces and labs:
Offices, mission control, science labs, engineering shops, fabrication/repair bays.
Social and cultural spaces:
Common rooms, lounges, “town square” or auditorium, art/music spaces, spiritual/meditation rooms.
If you don’t allocate this up front, it gets squeezed into leftover corners—which is exactly what you don’t want in a long‑duration, high‑stress environment.
7. Power: you’ve got a floor, not a ceiling
You already see the gap:
Life support baseline:
~0.4–0.5 MW for CO₂ and water processing is just “keep them alive.”
Ventilation and thermal:
Tens to hundreds of kW more, depending on air change rates and radiator design.
Food production:
LED grow lights and associated systems push you into multi‑MW territory by themselves.
Everything else:
IT, comms, robotics, mining/ISRU, manufacturing, vehicles, construction, science.
So 5 MW for 1,000 people is a minimum survival plus a bit. Once you include food and industry, 10–15 MWe for a thriving settlement is very plausible.
The short answer
What you “missed” in the ring Quonset hut sizing is:
Circulation and geometry overhead (hallways, nodes, airlocks, curvature losses).
All the support spaces you listed but haven’t turned into area/volume.
Systems and utility volume for life support, power, thermal, and waste.
Redundancy, spares, and logistics storage.
Work, social, and psychological spaces beyond bunks and a mess hall.
Growth and contingency margin—you’ve sized for exactly 1,000, not 1,000 + failures + expansion.
If you want, we can take a next step and build a rough “volume budget” table—sleeping, hygiene, food, medical, greenhouse, systems, circulation—and see what the total ring volume really looks like.
You’ve done a very thorough first‑pass accounting of the power, air, water, and food loops for a 1,000‑person Mars settlement. The numbers you’re using are grounded in real ISS hardware performance, which is exactly the right way to avoid sci‑fi hand‑waving. What you’ve built is essentially a “minimum viable colony” energy budget.
But you asked: what did we miss?
A few major categories haven’t been included yet, and they matter a lot—some even more than the life‑support loops themselves. I’ll walk through the big ones, explain why they matter, and give you a sense of how they change the overall power and mass picture.
?️ 1. Thermal Control: The Hidden Giant
You accounted for radiator load from life support, but you haven’t accounted for habitat heating.
Mars is cold. Really cold.
Typical equatorial night: −70°C
Mid‑latitudes: −100°C
Worst‑case: −120°C
Even with insulation, a large pressurized structure leaks heat. On Earth, a well‑insulated building loses 30–50 W/m² in winter. On Mars, with a 100°C temperature delta, you’re looking at 100–200 W/m² unless you bury the structure.
For a 125,000 m³ habitat, even assuming a modest 2,000 m² exposed surface area:
200 W/m² × 2,000 m² = 400 kW continuous heating
That’s before you add greenhouses, workshops, airlocks, or tunnels.
If the colony uses multiple pressurized modules, the heating load can easily reach 1–2 MW thermal.
This is one of the biggest missing items.
?️ 2. Manufacturing, Fabrication, and Maintenance
A real colony must repair and build things. That means:
CNC machines
Metal 3D printers
Kilns and smelters
Plastics extrusion
Electronics repair
Welding equipment
Machine shops
Rover maintenance bays
Industrial equipment is power‑hungry.
A modest terrestrial workshop consumes 200–500 kW.
A small industrial fab shop: 1–3 MW.
A Mars colony needs the latter, not the former.
This is another multi‑megawatt category missing from your tally.
? 3. Transportation (Rovers, Haulers, Drones)
Electric rovers on Mars will be the backbone of logistics.
A single large pressurized rover (think “Mars bus”) uses:
50–100 kWh per sol
Peak draw: 20–40 kW
A fleet of 20–30 vehicles adds:
0.5–1 MW continuous equivalent power
If you include mining trucks or regolith haulers, the number jumps.
? 4. ISRU for Construction Materials
If the colony builds anything locally—bricks, concrete, glass, metals—then you need:
Regolith heating
Sintering
Electrolysis
Chemical processing
High‑temperature furnaces (1,000–1,600°C)
These processes are extremely energy‑intensive.
A small regolith‑to‑brick plant alone can require:
1–5 MW thermal
0.5–1 MW electrical
If you want to produce metals (iron, aluminum, magnesium), multiply that by 5–10.
This is one of the largest missing power sinks.
? 5. Food Processing, Refrigeration, and Storage
You accounted for crop lighting, but not:
Refrigeration
Freezers
Drying and milling
Cooking
Packaging
Waste composting
Greenhouse climate control (fans, pumps, humidity control)
A 1,000‑person food system on Earth uses 1–2 MW of electrical power.
Even if you optimize heavily, you’re still looking at 0.5–1 MW.
? 6. Medical Facilities
A real colony needs:
Imaging (X‑ray, ultrasound, maybe MRI)
Sterilization
Labs
Surgical suites
Pharmacy production
A small hospital consumes 300–800 kW.
?️ 7. Communications and Computing
You haven’t included:
High‑gain antennas
Data centers
Navigation beacons
Local servers
Robotics control systems
A modest data center for 1,000 people is 200–500 kW.
If you want AI‑assisted operations or simulation labs, add more.
? 8. Safety Systems and Redundancy
A Mars colony must have:
Backup life support
Backup power
Emergency shelters
Fire suppression
Airlock cycling
Pressure monitoring
Leak detection
Spare parts manufacturing
Redundancy typically adds 30–50% overhead to all life‑support power.
? 9. Waste Processing Beyond Water
You included wastewater, but not:
Solid waste
Plastics recycling
Composting
Hazardous waste
Medical waste
Sewage sludge drying
Methane capture (if used)
A small waste‑to‑energy plant is 200–400 kW.
? 10. Atmospheric Processing for N₂ and Ar
You noted the need for nitrogen but didn’t include the power cost.
To extract N₂ and Ar from Mars’ atmosphere:
You must compress the atmosphere from 0.6 kPa to ~100–200 kPa
Then cryogenically separate gases
This is extremely energy‑intensive.
A rough estimate: 1–2 MW continuous for a colony this size.
? 11. Mining and Raw Material Extraction
If the colony wants to be even partially self‑sufficient:
Water ice mining
Regolith excavation
Gypsum mining
Sulfur extraction
Iron ore mining
Basalt fiber production
Mining equipment is power‑hungry.
A small terrestrial mine uses 5–10 MW.
A Mars colony version might use 1–3 MW.
? So What’s the Real Total?
Your estimate for basic life support + food was ~12 MW.
Adding the missing categories:
Category Estimated Power
Heating 1–2 MW
Manufacturing 1–3 MW
Transportation 0.5–1 MW
Construction ISRU 1–5 MW
Food processing 0.5–1 MW
Medical 0.3–0.8 MW
Computing & comms 0.2–0.5 MW
Waste processing 0.2–0.4 MW
Atmospheric N₂/Ar 1–2 MW
Mining 1–3 MW
Redundancy overhead +30–50%
Realistic total: 20–30 MW electrical + 5–10 MW thermal
This is very close to the power consumption of a small town or industrial campus on Earth.
? The Big Picture
Your original conclusion—that a Mars colony ends up looking like a high‑tech American town in terms of per‑capita energy use—is absolutely correct.
But the full system is larger:
Life support is only ~30–40% of total power.
Industry, construction, and heating dominate the rest.
A 1,000‑person Mars settlement is basically:
A small city
A mining operation
A farm
A factory
A research base
A hospital
A power plant
A water treatment facility
All rolled into one.
If you want, I can help you:
Build a full power budget spreadsheet
Model different energy architectures (geothermal vs nuclear vs solar‑thermal)
Estimate radiator area, mass, and heat rejection
Size the nitrogen extraction plant
Model food production with mixed crops
Estimate habitat insulation requirements
Just tell me where you want to take this next.
#353 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2026-01-28 15:24:33
Good news from the numbers run for just the sleeping part of the ring. We were off by a factor of 2-4 time the number of volume required for building just that part of the structure.
Like wise the greenhouse for soil use would have been 5 time the area as its not making use of vertical height, energy was also up but within the margin I had guessed at.
The hydroponic portion was still off even after i doubled what nasa had but only by another factor of 2 times.
So you can hopefully this would not been good.
I have more numbers to work out still but due to needing to have more power beyond the 10 meg watts should have a couple more for the ability to expand.
Still lots of other stuff to compute.
#354 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2026-01-27 18:37:50
In discussions you will need to put the opinions with in the topics and then do the branch for what you feel is off topic. It allows for those reading to understand the topics fishbone discussions that are being found and created. This happened to some degree with the large ship.
So its expected to have many related topics that are the branches in which some support the original while others are separate projects to be under taken that may or may not support the actions to which is the goal.
Take for instance power requirement for crew life support and then what power that is required for the green house for food plus recycling of co2 to oxygen which each are branches in the ring structure we are trying to come up with.
These are both power but its the sum of each which must be achieved.
So right now we are trying to get to the volumes as required in total for each portion of the ring Quonset shaped simple from making the first section unit until finished and internal work can be done for how each portion is used.
Please continue in discussion what you think are off topics but make the efforts to bring those fishbone out include your thought so that the project lead can read them as much as possible in one location root topic to the branches.
#355 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2026-01-27 15:31:32
For SpaceNut about Ring Habitat topic...
Please do NOT copy this post into the habitat topic.
What I think might work in this situation is to separate the smelting branch from the main trunk.
You have already introduced a post that does not contribute directly to the habitat ring topic.
That post can tell our readers to branch to another topic if they want to.
My goal and desire is that we will prepare a series of posts that a future reader can follow from beginning to end, and know how to set up the habitat.
Posts about other topics can be indicated.
We can either ship the Quonset huts ready made from Earth, or we can make them on Mars from Mars materials.
In any case, a discussion about how to smelt iron on Mars needs it's own topic.
Calliban would be the right person to lead a topic about how to smelt iron on Mars, and what to do with it.
You and I are NOT the right people to lead that topic.
Do we already have a topic about how to smelt iron on Mars? We might!
If we do, just point to it and continue building the topic so if flows cleanly from the opening post to the finished plan.
Reminder: We are now waiting for kbd512 to make the decision about how big he wants the Quonset hut to be. Once we have that information, we can figure out how to deploy 250 huts inside and outside the roadway ring. Until then we can work on something else.
The roadway will serve all residents. It will be a source of all fluids including gases. It will also be the passage for spent gases if we do not clean the air in each habitat. I think it would make sense to clean the air in each habitat, because every habitat needs to be able to operate independently in case of an accident that rips open the roadway corridor.
kbd512 has provided an opportunity for us to think about equipment that is under the habitat, because he indicated he would elevate the habitats above the regolith rather than dig down into it. Remember that kbd512 has chosen a location where water is believed to be abundant.
it seems to me that each habitat needs it's own power generator for emergencies, so the form that would take seems worth it's own topic.
(th)
Is the Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus a wiki or discussion?
If its a wiki I will remove my content, if you want a fishbone for further discussion and exploration of discussion.
1 then make the post
2 give the new link for discussion
if you want your idea of of bring it to mars to build move the other post to your discussion topic
Imported Equipment and Maintenance Garage for Mars which is the same structure that you wanted to consider.
I will even give the starship data for the bay opening which is 8 Meters x 8 meters x 22.5 meters tall. Solve to how much you can put into the opening and staying under the 100 Mt of mass that each can bring to mars.
For your next post we do not know how many are required or what the final count will be due to having insufficient specification.
#356 Re: Meta New Mars » kbd512 Postings » 2026-01-27 15:13:00
kbd512 Items that we know with many blanks still yet to determine overall volume needed
Developing anything on Mars with incomplete information is a project doomed to fail.
KBD512's only spec is as follows.
The 4 crew sleeping quarters is a volume of 125 m cubic meters which with 2.5 m floor to ceiling means 5m by 10 m long but what is missing?
Simple math: 1000 crew / 4 only gives a volume that is incomplete at 250x 125 m^3 = 31,250 cubic meters of volume
Here is some of the missing that changes that numbers as doors are required to exit or enter through, Whether these are pressurized doors, Hallways on either side, how adjacent quarters are placed next to each other as a curve leaves the walls at angles to the center of the shape, Are there going to personal hygiene within each quarters or are they combined as a central galley/ kitchen, food stores for dries or canned, freezer refrigeration, Mess table area for crew to eat area.
Quarters need ventilation, heating humidity control, linen areas for doing laundry and drying, how about exercise area and equipment, ect...
Without numbers or lights, outlets for individual occupants are further not specified items which are required.
Then there is the totals for all life support items to which include volumes needed to build as well.
power requirements beyond 10kw for 2 crew on the surface is for 1,000 will be 5 Meg watt
waste management A 4-person crew can generate up to 2,500 kg of waste in a one-year mission. A 3-year, 8-person crew is projected to generate roughly 12,600 kg of inorganic waste alone.
air scrubbing and replenishment
medical care, surgery, recovery Area: 23-28 sq meters per crew patient bed for monitoring, leave space for all side of bed for a minimum to support 50 crew
galley/kitchen, refrigeration/ freezing, dry food storage
greenhouse which is volume for 1,000 need per single person is 2m x 4m x5m = 40 cubic meter x 1,000 = 40,000 cubic m volume
power still needs calculations for LED
#357 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-27 15:10:07
Developing anything on Mars with incomplete information is a project doomed to fail.
KBD512's only spec is as follows.
The 4 crew sleeping quarters is a volume of 125 m cubic meters which with 2.5 m floor to ceiling means 5m by 10 m long but what is missing?
Simple math: 1000 crew / 4 only gives a volume that is incomplete at 250x 125 m^3 = 31,250 cubic meters of volume
Here is some of the missing that changes that numbers as doors are required to exit or enter through, Whether these are pressurized doors, Hallways on either side, how adjacent quarters are placed next to each other as a curve leaves the walls at angles to the center of the shape, Are there going to personal hygiene within each quarters or are they combined as a central galley/ kitchen, food stores for dries or canned, freezer refrigeration, Mess table area for crew to eat area.
Quarters need ventilation, heating humidity control, linen areas for doing laundry and drying, how about exercise area and equipment, ect...
Without numbers or lights, outlets for individual occupants are further not specified items which are required.
The large ship was 19 Meters wide for the floor, so is this realistic as well?
#358 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-26 18:44:03
Its still just art from what it thinks meets what the words are telling it.
So the Quonset hut from repurposed starship emptied stainless steel shell seems to be winning for materials to use.
This is where we need the smelting information so as to reform the materials and start the process to make insitu resource use.
Smelting is also required to make the basalt blocks as well. So the stainless and basalt use the same unit?
#359 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-26 18:23:10
Here are the ones copilot generated without spokes as fed in from post 20 above
#360 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-26 15:09:03
For kbd512 re Ring Habitat on Mars...
SpaceNut described the decision tree for a project as like the bone structure of a fish.
That image stuck with me ... At the same time, the "D" shape you described reminds me of Quonset huts.
Now (an hour or so later after daily chores are complete) it came to me that the two ideas might go together...
If you set up a string of Quonset huts for the roadway and then extend Quonset huts like spokes on both the inside and outside, you could provide comfortable (and private) quarters for 250 families and keep the circumference of the entire structure to a lesser value than might otherwise be the case.
We have members who can draw with computers. It would be fun to see what that idea might look like.
We also have members who can persuade AI drawing programs to create images, so perhaps someone will venture in that direction.
This would be like SpaceNut's fishbone structure looped into a circle.
(th)
A 1,000-crew, self-sustaining Mars habitat utilizing a ring-shaped, Quonset-hut design made of stainless steel offers a durable, high-volume, and potentially scalable solution to extraterrestrial habitation. By leveraging a curved structural form, the habitat distributes pressure efficiently while allowing for modular construction using materials suitable for the harsh Martian environment, such as stainless steel (analogous to Starship technology).
Structural & Design Concepts
Quonset Hut Shape: The semi-circular cross-section is ideal for pressure vessels, as it distributes stress uniformly. Large-scale, curved metal arches provide high durability and resistance to exterior pressure loads.
Ring Configuration: A ring shape allows for a modular, expandable colony where segments can be added, and it provides a circular, continuous loop for efficient, self-contained, and self-sufficient living spaces.
Dimensions & Pressure: To house 1,000 crew members, a large-radius ring (likely over 500 meters in diameter) would be required to provide sufficient living, working, and agricultural space. The 0.5 bar pressure (roughly half Earth's sea-level pressure) is a common, manageable target for reducing structural load compared to 1 bar while still allowing human comfort.
Materials: Stainless steel is a prime candidate due to its high strength, relatively low cost, and durability, especially under the extreme temperature fluctuations on Mars. It also allows for easier welding/fabrication using robots (such as "Atomic Liberation of Propellant and Habitat" (ALPH) units).
Sustainability & Life Support (In-Situ Resource Utilization - ISRU)
A self-sustaining colony requires producing resources on-site to minimize resupply from Earth:
Shielding: To protect against radiation and potential, albeit low, atmospheric leakage, the stainless steel structure would likely need to be covered by 1-2 meters of Martian regolith.
Food Production: Hydroponic or aquaponic systems, potentially using processed Martian regolith, would be integrated into the habitat, perhaps in specialized greenhouse segments of the ring.
Water & Air: Local water ice could be mined to supply water for drinking, cleaning, and electrolysis to produce oxygen for breathing and hydrogen for fuel.
Construction Materials: While the initial structure uses transported or on-site fabricated steel, subsequent expansion could utilize 3D-printed materials made from local basalt fiber and binders.
Safety and Operational Factors
Pressurization Risk: The 0.5 bar pressure differential requires robust construction to avoid explosive decompression, with particular attention to airlocks and structural seams.
Modular Safety: The ring structure should be segmented with pressure-tight, closable doors (airlocks) to allow for sealing off damaged sections without affecting the entire colony.
Energy Generation: The colony would require massive solar arrays and, most likely, compact nuclear reactors to sustain the 1,000-person population, greenhouses, and processing machinery.
This configuration provides a sustainable, long-term habitat that combines the proven, rugged design of a Quonset hut with modern, material-efficient, and self-reliant Mars technologies
#361 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2026-01-26 13:24:23
The topics are discussion topics not special ones which require discussion "Communications" / opinions to take place in discussions not in special those are the wiki that are created....
So wiki or project titles in the respective folder for them for the topic as such as I have done.
Indicate that its not a discussion topic as I did.
Whether we are admin or not does not give a difference in discussion.
Absolutely none...
We are not a publishing house of finished papers
Topics without discussion are echo chamber
#362 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-26 12:32:55
Please be brave to post in the topic
For SpaceNut re post on kbd512's ring habitat...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p237647
Thanks for finding and showing that hint about SpaceX more spacious accommodation for travelers.
For kbd512's habitat, I think we should be thinking of long term comfort. Those 1000 people kbd512 is going to shelter will need lots of space. There will eventually be kids in that volume, so it needs to be spacious.
I haven't read the paper you linked, but I'm hoping it is leading in the direction of spacious quarters.
I think a good model for scale is a motel, but not an economy one. This is NOT a time to be limited in thinking.
Mars has plenty of raw material to be shaped into comfortable quarters, so I hope you will lean toward spacious comfort and away from cramped economy.
It may be a good time to remind everyone, participants and readers alike.... this is NOT a NASA project.
This is the Capitalist System at work.
We are NOT building something that government bureaucrats requested, as might be the case for a military base.
We ARE working on a decent quality long term living situation where people would actually pay good money to live for six Earth months or longer.
RobertDyck has cited Earthly ocean going ships as examples to study. Some people actually live on such ships for years at a time, but they are free to walk out on the deck where the open ocean is all to be seen, along with the wide open sky.
The habitat you are helping kbd512 to design is NOT going to have ** anything ** open to the environment, and that environment is going to be deadly on both the short term and the long term.
Speaking of RobertDyck ... he has published some of an architectural study in which he took part. As I recall the images, there was plenty of space provided for residents and visitors.
The structure you are helping kbd512 to design needs to be like that. Safe and comfortable, but uplifting to the spirits as well. How you and kbd512 will achieve that I don't know, but what I ** do ** know is that the customers who will pay good money to live in this habitat will be looking for it.
(th)
The vision of both Kbd512 and Robertdyck for large ship can both be used for some layout information but they differ greatly.
Since we are processing stainless steel from multiple starships, we will need to have the largest volume to work with.
Which is a progression of landed not used vehicle approx. 70m tonnes that remain after each crew change until we have enough to build with.
Which once remelted and formed into the structural elements can be used to create the settlement building.
#364 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-26 12:06:03
kbd512 wrote:Last week we set the number of colonists at 1,000 people. I'm still trying to come up with my estimates for the life support requirements, because that sets the power requirements.
Net Habitable Volume Requirements are driven by this document from NASA:
Defining the Required Net Habitable Volume for Long-Duration Exploration MissionsTheir defined minimum volume for 6 crew members is 27.3m^3. For this proposed facility, I'm estimating 125m^3 of net habitable volume per person, which works out to 125,000m^3, equivalent to a "box" style building with dimensions of 50mL x 50mW x 50mH. My initial estimates still show quite a bit more tensile material to work with, though, assuming 10 Starships worth of 304L, so I think it will be significantly larger than that.
When I have my numbers for life support, power, and materials available, I can then estimate how much basalt needs to be extracted and converted into tiles.
The reference document is for a trans habitat travel to mars and is not typical for a surface document and may not always scale up to yield accurate or justified numbers.
This just what starship crewed is providing with SpaceX Starship (spacecraft)
The SpaceX Starship features approximately \(1,000\text{--}1,100\text{\ m}^{3}\) of pressurized internal volume, with roughly \(500\text{--}600\text{\ m}^{3}\) dedicated to usable, habitable space for crew and supplies on Mars missions. While designed for up to 100 people, initial, more comfortable missions are expected to hold a crew of 10–20, featuring private cabins, common areas, and specialized life support
#365 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2026-01-26 07:07:12
Trump issues four immigration demands to Walz, Democratic leaders
Trump on Truth Social
The president posted on Sunday:“That is why I am hereby calling on Governor Walz, Mayor Frey, and EVERY Democrat Governor and Mayor in the United States of America to formally cooperate with the Trump Administration to enforce our Nation’s Laws, rather than resist and stoke the flames of Division, Chaos, and Violence:
1. Governor Walz and Mayor Frey should turn over all Criminal Illegal Aliens that are currently incarcerated in their State Prisons and Jails to Federal Authorities, along with all Illegal Criminals with an active warrant or known Criminal History, for Immediate Deportation.
2. State and Local Law Enforcement must agree to turn over all Illegal Aliens arrested by Local Police.
3. Local Police must assist Federal Law Enforcement in apprehending and detaining Illegal Aliens who are wanted for Crimes.
4. Democrat Politicians must partner with the Federal Government to protect American Citizens in the rapid removal of all Criminal Illegal Aliens in our Country. Some Democrats, in places like Memphis, Tennessee, or Washington, D.C., have done so, resulting in safer streets for ALL.
In addition, I am hereby calling on the United States Congress to immediately pass Legislation to END Sanctuary Cities, which is the root cause of all of these problems. American Cities should be Safe Sanctuaries for Law Abiding American Citizens ONLY, not Illegal Alien Criminals who broke our Nation’s Laws.
All of these requests are rooted in COMMON SENSE, and will provide the best possible circumstances to, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! The Trump Administration is standing by, and waiting for ANY Democrat to do the right thing, and work with us on these important matters of MAKING AMERICA SAFE like it is in all sections of our Country where we are, together with Local Leadership, participating and involved.
DONALD J. TRUMP PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA”
#366 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Coal-fired Brayton Cycle Supercritical CO2 Boilers » 2026-01-26 06:57:00
The triple point of carbon dioxide (\(CO_{2}\)) occurs at -56.6°C (-56.6°F) and 5.11 atm (approx. 75 psi), where solid, liquid, and gas phases coexist in equilibrium. Below this pressure, \(CO_{2}\) cannot exist as a liquid, leading to sublimation (solid-to-gas) at atmospheric pressure. Key Aspects of \(CO_{2}\) Phase Changes: Triple Point Conditions: \(-56.6^{\circ }\text{C}\) (\(216.55\text{\ K}\)) and \(5.11\text{\ atm}\) (\(518\text{\ kPa}\)).Sublimation (Dry Ice): At standard atmospheric pressure (\(1\text{\ atm}\)), solid \(CO_{2}\) turns directly into gas at \(-78.5^{\circ }\text{C}\) (\(-109.3^{\circ }\text{F}\)).Liquid Existence: Liquid \(CO_{2}\) only exists at pressures above \(5.11\text{\ atm}\).Critical Point: Above \(31.1^{\circ }\text{C}\) and \(73\text{\ atm}\), \(CO_{2}\) becomes a supercritical fluid. Because the triple point pressure is higher than normal atmospheric pressure, \(CO_{2}\) does not melt into a liquid at room pressure, making it useful as "dry ice" for cooling
The triple point of carbon dioxide is the unique temperature–pressure combination where solid CO₂, liquid CO₂, and gaseous CO₂ can all coexist in equilibrium. For CO₂, this occurs at a relatively low temperature and a moderately high pressure compared to everyday conditions.
? CO₂ Triple Point: Key Facts
Definition: The triple point is where the sublimation, melting, and vaporization curves meet, allowing all three phases to coexist.
For CO₂:
Occurs at 5.11 atm (approximately 518 kPa)
Temperature is −56.6°C (about −69.9°F)
At this point, CO₂ can exist simultaneously as solid, liquid, and gas.
This is shown as Point B on standard CO₂ phase diagrams.
? Why CO₂ Behaves Differently
At 1 atm, CO₂ cannot exist as a liquid.
Instead, solid CO₂ (dry ice) sublimates directly into gas because atmospheric pressure is below the triple‑point pressure.
Only when pressure is raised above 5.11 atm can CO₂ melt into a liquid.
? CO₂ Phase Diagram Highlights
Sublimation curve (solid ↔ gas): Active at pressures below the triple point.
Melting curve (solid ↔ liquid): Slopes to the right for CO₂, unlike water.
Critical point: Beyond which CO₂ becomes a supercritical fluid.
#367 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Coal-fired Brayton Cycle Supercritical CO2 Boilers » 2026-01-26 06:53:07
Sage Geosystems Proprietary sCO2 Turbine Flow Loop Testing
SCO2 even works well at lower temperatures in geothermal power systems:
Abstract
Sage Geosystems will present the status of the testing of their full-scale 3MWe (electric) prototype supercritical CO2 (sCO2) turbine that has been modeled, designed, and built in a partnership with Southwest Research Institute (SwRI). This new power plant technology is expected to more than double the utilization efficiency and reduce equipment costs by 50% (assuming thermosiphon) as compared to a traditional Organic Rankine Cycle (ORC) power plant. Use of sCO2 enables Sage to target mid-enthalpy temperatures (150-250°C) for geothermal and be cost-competitive with wind, solar, and natural gas. Testing will be performed on SwRI’s CO2 flow loop located at their facility in San Antonio, Texas.
There has been innovation and significant investment by others to develop efficient and cost-effective systems for sedimentary rock, but they have not been successful as they are typically focused on the well(s) only and ignore the power plant efficiency. Using sCO2 as the working fluid combined with a specially designed sCO2 turbine not only doubles the power output but reduces power plant costs by 50% due to the smaller size of the turbine, heat exchangers, and lack of compressor.
CO2 has a supercritical temperature of only 31°C and supercritical pressure of 1070 psi, so with a level of pressurization that is normal in industry, allowing it to remain supercritical throughout the power cycle. Most interestingly, sCO2 has large changes in density with small changes in temperature (400% more than the density changes of water). This creates a “thermosiphon” effect, where sCO2 being heated at the bottom of the well will expand, become buoyant and rise to the top, while sCO2 cooled at the surface becomes denser and sinks to the bottom. In this way sCO2 will create a passive convection loop that is so strong that little or no mechanical pumping is needed. In fact, the current design for the sCO2 turbine maximizes the efficiency of heat to electricity conversion by using the thermosiphon effect.
If used as a working fluid circulated within the subsurface formation, CO2 has other advantages over water including: (a) low salt solubility preventing scale precipitation in the wellbore and surface equipment; (b) low dynamic viscosity allowing it to flow more readily through low permeability subsurface formations and fractures; and (c) almost three times the difference in the density between cold sCO2 being injected (800 kg/m3 at 25°C) and hot sCO2 coming out of the well (300 kg/m3 at 150°C), which creates the thermosiphon mentioned and dramatically reduces the power requirements for circulating the working fluid.
SCO2 works with natural gas / coal / fuel oil thermal, solar thermal, geothermal, and nuclear thermal power sources. It works better than steam at low (for geothermal systems), moderate (solar thermal), and high temperatures (fuel oil and gas cooled reactors). All required equipment is dramatically smaller.
#368 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Coal-fired Brayton Cycle Supercritical CO2 Boilers » 2026-01-26 06:49:50
For kbd512 ...
This post picks up on #375...
I ran a search to see what is offered in topics ... we have nothing for SCO2. We have only one topic with supercritical...
Coal-fired Brayton Cycle Supercritical CO2 Boilers
That topic is probably a candidate for an update...
What do you think of creating a topic that is about the SCO2 concept over all?
Wikipedia has an article that appears to be an attempt to keep up to date.
If this forum had a dedicated topic, it could report on applications other than the coal fired boiler concept.
There must be reasons why SCO2 is not yet showing up in mass market applications.
Perhaps there is something about this technology that requires a massive investment to realize a return, and with existing systems performing reasonably well, perhaps investors simply aren't willing to take the risk.
Hybrid cars (that I know about) use piston engines to recharge the batteries for electric motors. It sounds (from Post #375) that SCO2 systems might be able to recharge batteries, so they might be candidates for hybrid vehicles as described in #375.
What would it take to put a vehicle like that on the road? What carbon fuels would it burn? It seems to me that having a carbon burning system in a vehicle would help deal with external cold while electric propulsion would eliminate complexity of mechanical drive trains.
(th)
For kbd512 ... we do not yet have a topic dedicated to SCO2 .... I'll put this analysis of SCO2 on Mars in your topic.
As a follow up... It sounds as though SCO2 is unlikely to achieve substantial market share compared to water based energy transformation systems. However, on Mars, the advantage of water is gone. There is water, but it will be enormously expensive. I contrast with Earth, Carbon Dioxide is readily available in great quantities. Please see if you can figure out how an energy storage system based upon the simple cycle: CO2 >> CO + O2 >> CO2 can be combined with SCO2 for energy transformation in a vehicle such as an Earth mover. Such a vehicle would need large tanks to hold CO and O2, but the output would be exhausted to the atmosphere. How might an SCO2 system recharge batteries for electric motors used for the drive train and manipulator operation?
***
On Mars, your proposed cycle—CO 2 →CO+O 2 →CO 2 —is more than just a chemical loop; it is a chemical battery that leverages the planet's atmosphere as both the fuel source and the carrier fluid.Combining this with a supercritical CO 2 (sCO 2 ) system creates a high-efficiency power plant for heavy machinery that addresses the specific hurdles of the Martian environment.
1. The Energy Loop: "Mars Atmospheric Battery"
The system functions in two distinct phases: Recharge (at a base) and Discharge (on the vehicle).Phase A: Charging (ISRU Base)
A stationary plant uses solar or nuclear power to "charge" the system by splitting atmospheric CO 2 .Solid Oxide Electrolysis (SOXE): Using technology like NASA’s MOXIE, the base dissociates CO 2 into CO and O 2 .
Compression & Storage: These gases are compressed and stored in high-pressure tanks on the vehicle. Because CO 2 liquefies easily at Martian temperatures, the base can also provide the initial sCO 2 "working fluid" for the vehicle's internal loop.
Phase B: Discharging (The Vehicle)
The vehicle uses the stored CO and O 2 to generate heat via combustion.2CO+O 2 →2CO 2 +Heat
This heat is then transferred to an internal sCO 2 power cycle to create mechanical motion and electricity.2. The sCO 2 Power Transformation In an earth-mover or heavy rover, the sCO 2 system acts as the "Prime Mover" that replaces a traditional internal combustion engine.
How it recharges the drive batteries:
Direct-Fired or Indirect Heating: The CO/O 2 burns in a combustion chamber. In a Direct-Fired cycle (Allam-style), the resulting CO 2 from the flame becomes the working fluid. In an Indirect cycle, the flame heats a heat exchanger that warms a separate closed loop of sCO 2 .Turbine Expansion: The high-pressure, high-temperature sCO 2 expands through a tiny, high-speed turbine.
High-Speed Generator: The turbine is coupled to a permanent magnet generator. Because sCO 2 turbines spin at extreme speeds (30,000+ RPM), they are perfectly suited for generating high-frequency AC power.
Power Electronics: This power is rectified and managed by a Power Distribution Unit (PDU) to:
Direct Drive: Power electric hub motors for the wheels.
Battery Top-off: Charge a Lithium-ion or Solid-State buffer battery that handles peak loads (like a sudden shove into a rock face).
Actuators: Power electric-hydrostatic actuators for the manipulator arms/shovels.
3. Why Mars makes sCO 2 more viable than Earth
The "headwinds" mentioned earlier are significantly reduced or turned into "tailwinds" on Mars:Feature Challenge on Earth Advantage on Mars
Heat Rejection Needs water or massive fans. The cold Martian night (-60°C) is a perfect heat sink for sCO 2 condensation.
Atmospheric Gas CO 2 must be captured/stored. The atmosphere is CO 2 at 95% purity.
System Mass Steam is bulky; sCO 2 is just "smaller." Mass is the #1 cost in space. A desk-sized 1MW sCO 2 turbine is a massive logistics win.Exhaust CO 2 is a pollutant. Exhausting CO 2 on Mars is harmless and returns the mass to the atmosphere.
4. Mechanical Design for an Earth-Mover
An sCO 2 earth-mover would likely follow a Hybrid-Electric architecture:The "Engine" (sCO2): A modular, vibration-isolated "Power Box" containing the CO/O 2 burner and the sCO 2 turbogenerator.
The "Tanks": Cryogenic or high-pressure tanks for CO and O 2 .
The "Buffer": A relatively small battery pack. The sCO 2 turbine doesn't like to change speeds quickly, so it runs at a steady, efficient "cruise" while the battery absorbs the spikes in power needed for digging.
The Exhaust: Instead of a complex "condenser" to recycle every drop of CO 2 , the vehicle can afford a "Semi-Open Cycle." It exhausts the CO 2 byproduct of combustion into the Martian air, knowing the base station can always suck more out of the sky to "refuel" it.
Would you like me to look into the specific energy density (Wh/kg) of a CO/O 2 chemical storage system compared to modern batteries to see how much more range a Martian earth-mover might have?
***
Thank you for your helpful analysis and clear presentation! I will publish this in a forum devoted to Mars settlement. Hopefully there will be interest and follow up questions.
***
That sounds like an excellent plan! The Mars settlement community is exactly the right crowd for this—they value high-efficiency, closed-loop (or semi-closed-loop) systems where mass-savings are the highest priority.To give your forum post a bit more "technical punch," here is a quick summary of the specific engineering synergy you've identified, which could spark deeper discussion among the members:
Key Talking Points for your Forum Post:
The "Atmospheric Battery" Advantage: Unlike Earth, where we struggle to store energy, Mars provides the "plates" of the battery for free in the atmosphere. We are essentially using solar/nuclear power to "un-burn" the Martian air into CO and O 2 , then "re-burning" it in the vehicle.The Heat Sink Advantage: One of the biggest hurdles for sCO 2 on Earth is that the "cold" side of the cycle needs to be near 31°C to stay efficient. On Mars, the average temperature is -60°C. This makes the recuperation and condensation steps much easier and allows for a higher Carnot efficiency (1−T cold /T hot ).
Scale and Power Density: A steam-based earth-mover would be impractical due to the size of the boilers and condensers. An sCO 2 turbine the size of a watermelon could potentially power a 100-ton excavator.
A Technical Nuance for the "Follow-up Questions"
You might get asked about "Coking." When burning CO and O 2 , if the mixture isn't perfectly tuned, you can get carbon deposits (soot/coke) inside the machinery. However, in an sCO 2 environment, the high-pressure CO 2 actually acts as a solvent and a cleaning agent, which might help keep the turbine blades cleaner than a standard internal combustion engine on Earth.(th)
#369 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-25 20:08:56
kbd512 identified a location ... 73 north lattitude 165 degrees East longitude.
Wikipedia is a resource ... images are available
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
kbd512 identified a location in the lower right hand corner, near an ice field as of interest for the ring habitat
For kbd512 re ring habitat topic in NewMars....
We have three people "working" on the topic at the moment.
You have the role of Lead, and that role requires very little time, but it ** does ** require good judgement.
SpaceNut has agreed to do the majority of the hard work that is going to lead to a finished plan.
We are still in the early decision making process. Elsewhere, SpaceNut has described the decision making process as like a fish bone with countless side branches that must be clipped off so we can stay on course down the backbone.
On Sunday, you made another critical decision, placing the habitat ring next to an ice bearing Crater. The trade-off you made was to trade proximity to the equator for proximity to water. It seems to me that this choice has many advantages and few disadvantages, compared to other locations such as Calliban's Dome, which is close to the Equator but far from water.
Also on Sunday, you began thinking about the amount of volume you want each family to have. It occurred to me that a Quonset hut is a shape that might have some similarity to your "D" shaped habitat cross section. A Quonset hut can be evaluated on Earth for suitability for a family. The land area and volume of a typical 4 person home in the US might be a guide to what a family would want on Mars, for a permanent years-at-a-time living situation.
In thinking about how your idea might unfold, it occurred to me that the area under the habitat structure might be a good place to put a passage way. That volume could be used for movement of fluids, electrons, and vehicles and people.
You spoke of raising the floor of the site above the water bearing regolith, and perhaps the volume under the floor might be adapted for the utility purposes that are needed to support the living spaces.
The size of the ring might well follow from your decision about Quonset hut size for each family. I am thinking of space for a garden or a lawn, in addition to the rooms set aside for each member of the family, and for group activities.
(th)
Another view of the Korolev
#370 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » 2026-01-25 19:59:54
Last week we set the number of colonists at 1,000 people. I'm still trying to come up with my estimates for the life support requirements, because that sets the power requirements.
Net Habitable Volume Requirements are driven by this document from NASA:
Defining the Required Net Habitable Volume for Long-Duration Exploration MissionsTheir defined minimum volume for 6 crew members is 27.3m^3. For this proposed facility, I'm estimating 125m^3 of net habitable volume per person, which works out to 125,000m^3, equivalent to a "box" style building with dimensions of 50mL x 50mW x 50mH. My initial estimates still show quite a bit more tensile material to work with, though, assuming 10 Starships worth of 304L, so I think it will be significantly larger than that.
When I have my numbers for life support, power, and materials available, I can then estimate how much basalt needs to be extracted and converted into tiles.
Based on the landing capabilities of SpaceX's Starship and the geography of the 82-kilometer-wide Korolev Crater, multiple Starships could theoretically land very close to one another—potentially within tens of meters of each other on the flat, ice-covered, or rocky regions of the crater floor.
However, the practical limits on landing proximity are determined by safety constraints rather than guidance precision.
Key Factors for Landing Proximity at Korolev Crater
High-Precision Landing Capability: Starship is designed for pinpoint landing, with simulations and tests suggesting accuracies within 3 to 10 meters.
Geographical Advantages: The Korolev crater is 82 km across and filled with a 1.8 km thick sheet of water ice, providing a vast, flat, and stable surface ideal for landing multiple vehicles.
Safety Constraints (Landing Closely): To avoid damage from flying debris, plume interaction, and thermal shock, multiple Starships would likely maintain a minimum distance of 100 to 300 meters between ships.
Operational Considerations: Landing too closely increases the risk of a single malfunction (such as a rocket tipping over) affecting neighboring ships.
Feasibility at Korolev
Landing Site: The floor of the crater is largely filled with water ice, but landing directly on the center ice mound might require specialized preparations to prevent melting.
Proximity: While Starships could land side-by-side, a safer operational,, "village" layout would likely place them a few hundred meters apart, creating a dense "spaceport" effect within the 82-km diameter crater, which is plenty of space for dozens of vehicles.
The main constraint on "how close" is the safety of the infrastructure around the landing zone, not the navigation of the vehicles themselves
But we want just outside of the crater.
Multiple Starships can land in close proximity on Mars, with current planning suggesting a separation distance of within a few kilometers to support the development of an outpost. While the initial target for landing navigation is quite precise—within a few hundred meters (a <200m diameter ellipse)—actual touchdown points will likely be spaced further apart to prevent damage from landing debris.
Key Details on Proximity and Landing Site Selection:
Separation Constraints: The primary constraint on landing proximity is the need to prevent damage from rocket exhaust and kicked-up debris. Safe separation distances are projected to be in the range of hundreds of meters to a few kilometers.
Precision: Starship utilizes terrain-relative navigation aimed at achieving a landing circle less than 200 meters in diameter, with high-accuracy,, smaller landing ellipses potentially possible.
Landing Location: Rather than the icy depths of Korolev Crater, early missions are likely to target equatorial regions (such as Arcadia Planitia or near Hellas Planitia) below -2 km elevation, which provide warmer temperatures and better solar power access.
Infrastructure Layout: To manage the risk of debris, multiple ships will likely be landed in a "swarm" or "field" configuration, allowing for close, yet safe, operations, similar to how landing sites are arranged at Starbase, Texas.
Safety Buffer: While landing within "walking distance" is possible, a distance of at least 100 meters is recommended to avoid immediate, intense engine exhaust impacts.
The goal is to land in a flat, stable, low-lying area that provides access to shallow subsurface ice for, for instance, producing fuel, rather than in deep craters
How flat is the crater slopes as we want the ice with in the crater...
#371 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Reestablishing Domestic Manufacturing Competence » 2026-01-25 18:27:41
quick check gives 100 New Hampshire Avenue in Portsmouth is a 102,000-square-foot Class A warehouse/distribution facility located at the Pease International Tradeport. As of late 2025, the facility is occupied by Georgia-Pacific and a subsidiary of HCA Healthcare. It is used for mission-critical logistics and distribution, developed by The Kane Company and Tidemark.
This on the old Pease Airforce base reclaimed lands.
The Portsmouth Pease International Tradeport in New Hampshire hosts a diverse mix of over 250 businesses, focusing on aerospace, manufacturing, technology, and professional services. Major tenants include Sig Sauer, Lonza, Sprague Operating Resources, and Hypertherm, along with airlines like Allegiant and Breeze Airways operating from the airport.
Key Business Sectors at Pease:
Manufacturing & Engineering: Sig Sauer (firearms), Lonza (biotechnology), Hypertherm (cutting systems), and Textiles Coated International.
Aviation & Aerospace: Port City Air (FBO), Seacoast Aviation Air Cargo, and airlines Allegiant and Breeze.
Corporate & Professional Services: Atlas Commodities, Two International Group, Stewart Title, and various IT/consulting firms.
Healthcare & Technology: Thrive Health Career Institute, Smile Design Center, and various engineering firms.
Hospitality & Services: Cisco Brewers (at the former Redhook site), various restaurants, a US Post Office, and Service Credit Union.
The Tradeport serves as a major employment hub for the Seacoast region, combining corporate offices with industrial manufacturing
#372 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion » 2026-01-25 18:09:00
At this time I have 8 inches of snow and could go as high as 18 through the following day.
Weather app says its 5'F at this time but its been colder.
I picked up a set of headphone with the built in microphone so will see how this works later.
#374 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Synthetic or Natural Fuel Produced using Solar Power » 2026-01-25 17:10:00
For SpaceNut re post about gasoline from air: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 09#p237609
Bingo!
That is ** impressive ** ... members of this forum have written extensively about the combination of technologies to make this happen.
The producer of the system you showed us has achieved at an astonishing level, all (apparently) in the Capitalist System (although there may be some contributions from tax payers since this would have been a business investment, research costs of which are deductible).
The team that achieved that result had outstanding leadership.
The individual members of the team had to have performed at a very high level indeed.
This company is a candidate for a book on how the Capitalist System can work.
Someone had vision, but a ** lot ** of people have vision. It was the many steps from vision to product that distinguish this group from the visionaries.
(th)
We talked about such systems but as you know when you have no money you do not invest in trial and error. That's why we have engineering people to do those things.
#375 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Reestablishing Domestic Manufacturing Competence » 2026-01-25 16:24:48
You are referring to MIT finding a place for geothermal in New Hampshire, up in the Conway area that they believe it's from radioactive decay that is 6.5 kilometers (roughly 4 miles), deep 400°F+ (200°C). temperature.
Estimated Costs and Feasibility (6.5 km Range)
Drilling Costs: The most significant expense. Drilling a single 4-kilometer (2.5-mile) well costs roughly $5 million, but costs for depths exceeding 6 kilometers (nearly 4 miles) can rise to $20 million per well or more.
Capital Costs: Deep geothermal projects, particularly EGS, often have capital costs exceeding $4,000–$6,000 per kW, which is higher than solar or wind, but comparable to other baseload power sources.
LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy): While geothermal in hotspots is 6¢/kWh,, outside of those, enhanced geothermal heat can cost 2–14¢/kWh-th, with electricity generation often costing five times more than heat generation.
NH Specifics: A 2007 report (referenced in 2016) suggested that while the Conway Granite has high geothermal potential due to natural radiation, it would be among the most expensive sites in the country to develop due to the required drilling depth
pockets need to be even deeper than this....