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Austin Stanley,
I like your comments the best, you have a simplistic world you live in, with today'ds issues globally for resources and the ever increasing needs will force governments to make harder decisions on the lifestyle for their people. This is the main reason for going after the resources in space not the costs for those resources but the quality and quantity of resources on these bodies.
One of the chief destroyers of the UN is America, because they won't work with the UN they want to be their way always. I can see the need of independence but it can go a bit too far.
We are going into space to improve humanity, If spacefaring organizations ( a loose term for all individuals, corporates, and governments that act or will act in space) don't have some overriding framework then we have major issues in space. The first group that gets to critical mass will then have a tactical advantage over the rest of the groups.
Currently look at the US militarily on earth has an advantage and doesn't give that critical mass advantage to other countries the same will apply in space for any group that get there first, they will hold that advantage and may use it to slow or hamper growth with other groups.
That is why its very important to have a global third party involved with colonization settlement and other major space activities past the lunar territorial boundaries.
Sorry Dook,
But it isn't the same!!!!!!!!!
America is one country / nation on a planet of 200+ countries / nations on this planet called earth. Amercia doesn't act for the whole world they act for themselves primarily and that is what nations / country governments are here for , not for global representation.
As outlined, the Mars colony should be under a world body even if that body is created by the G-7 or Space 7 Nations or another world governing body but that body will speak on behalf of the human race outside the Earth-Moon Territory.
This would also provide the legal and structural framework for settlement, property rights and future growth in the space enterprises and growth in the permanent manned space sector, at the same time reduce conflicts between nations on earth.
It will also focus on mars and beyond by one group and the individual nations could focus on near earth and lunar activities, providing time for long term space infrastructure, education and other learning programs for space settlement be developed and a cross ethic, cultural group could be formed to strive for humanity.
Firstly,
The current country ( earth based ) governments shouldn't extend their governments off planet earth into deep space. For colonization of other worlds a world governing body must be used to represent humanity into space. The colonization and settlement of Mars for the human race not Amercians or Russians or Chinese or Europeans or Africans but for human beings from earth.
The country based governments should only be able to hold, develop, maintain or control orbiting platforms or ground installations within the earth-moon space region.
Yes, the first four - six teams are mainly scientists and support staff for building the first colony on Mars but the next people will be other inhabitants not primarily scientists but relating to agriculture, engineering, civic/admin, space logistics and mining / mineral processing to expand the settlement and the living environment for humans on the planet.
Stargazer,
It depends on the development of technology and the reasons behind the colonization of mars or moon or any other planet or moon in our solar system. Those scientists sound like the men in the 1500's total the world was flat or the solar system orbited the earth or just ocean between europe and asia.
Colonization of Mars, moon or any other planet or moon can be done but not in spacecrafts like on the star trek or any other sci-fi show. but in a cramped spacecraft with limited facilities and calculated risks. At the end of the days the first generation of colony / settlement vessels are like the wagons trains of 1900's explorers coming to a new land ( new world ) for settlement and learning technologies , innovate new processors to survive.
Interesting Statement " CEV or Crew Exploration Vehicle", everything I have read about this program suggests that a limited number of personnel in orbit and for exploration to moon, mars and beyond.
I am disappointed to the fact that we should be looking for meanings to move a large workforce off the planet into space particularly into earth orbit for space science platforms, and lunar colonization before we look at mars colonization / settlement.
We are not with this CEV Program we are moving back to rocket style "apollo module"vehicles that have limited resource needs and limited crew casualties if things go wrong. We need more >>>>>>>>>>>>
We need a resuable space plane for crew movements into space from earth ( earth-orbit ) strictly for movement of personnel. a frieghter variant could be used for spacecargo transfer based on the airliner frieghters with modular onboard container systems and limited passenger space.
The vessels used to the moon and mars are different again because the absence of atomsphere except for the landing scrafts for the martian missions. These vessels are modular in design to make it easier to construct and maintain from earth orbit. These vessels will be developed from the ISS space station truss system and thus flexible and expandable.
GCNRevenger,
It doesn't stop governments as owners of resources and doesn't stop employing or sub-contracting the work to others but ultimately the resources could be controlled by a government for its uses and not for humanity in space uses.
That means if the chinese find resources that could benefit china they won't share with other countries and same goes with all other nations. And I do remember all the treaties , but they are paper and we are talking about the real life concerns of their people and they won't stop protecting the way of life for their citizens because it says we can't unless they back up the paper with actions.
Also when private enterprise goes out into space they will claim out a section for themselves and hold their resources until they can increase by creating alliances or merge with other private concerns or get taken over by government concerns, " brave new world in space ".
grypd,
Don't hold your breath !!!!
Firstly, All the Nations that go to the moon control their access to the resources via their moon facilities, and space vehicles, So the government will charge for mining leases or other fee structures to pay for the space and cost for vehicle useage and more.
The only way private enterprise will get access to resources on the moon or somewhere else in the solar system is to go for themselves.
Ian,
I am sorry to say that the discussion has got onto a different discussion that I misused the "H" word in a statement, and has gone for three pages of waffle and I know you wanted a discussion about the orion project and the various types of nuclear drive systems, including the variations of the orion project.
I hope know we can get back to the issue of the orion project and stop the waffling about the "H" word.
Euler, Martian Republic, and GCNRevenger,
Thank you for answering my statement, I did stay that we don't have a build drive system for FTL but we have alot of theories and some primarily research into FTL Systems, I was saying that it was proven that hyperspace exists, through Einstien, Hawkins, Kepler and other, but not tested against like GCN wants.
This technology will be new innovative technologies not yet developed for the next level of research. The funding is required.
The majority of funding should be used to develop the infrastructure for long term human settlement of our solar system and the returning of resources for continuing growth in space.
The development of Orion, NERVA, Nuclear-Plasma and other nuclear drive systems ( sub-light speed ) will ensure continued current growth in short distance travel until we have long distance travel drive system research completed.
Its interesting to use FTL or Hyperspace words or language and then skeptics come out and argue it down, but they don't know either. We are not yet ready for the understanding into FTL Transportation as we haven't go through with short distance travel, but we need to continue research and take all the theories and current research to the next level.
Its like saying we aren't going to Mars, It will start a large discussion with heated arguements. The fact is that Orion Drive is a viable method to move vast amounts of humans into the solar system onto colonies on Mars and mining settlements throughout our solar system and lets us develop newer technologies that will add the creation of faster drive systems.
As I have confidence that humanity will have a colony on Mars in my lifetime, one day we will go faster that light and travel to other star systems and other galaxies within our brilliant universe.
GCN Revenger,
You are " limited speed " person similar to " flat earth " person, that is what it sounds like from what your have typed. I am not, I have faith in our development and exploration skills as a race to unlock the abilities to move from earth to other star systems faster than light.
Lets get back to the real issue that is orion engine system could be used in the interim for solar system travel until we develop a better drive system. The answer is YES.
Martian Republic,
I am taking about science fact, If you talked to people , decades earlier they would tell you that you are crazy, talking nonsense, some people today still believe we haven't been on the moon.
Scientists working on the origins of our universe have found many answers and more questions about the creation of the universe including quantum mechanics, a layer of subspace that our laws don't apply. Professor Hawkins has proven a multi-verse exists ( with many different universes with different properties each different to each other including our universe) Hyperspace has also be proven through science to exist, but yet our technology hasn't establish a method to access and use it.
And regarding Star Trek, we have cell phones ( mobile phones ), PDA / Handheld computers, Stick Memory Cards from star trek, some of the medical technology came from Science Fiction and more, Some look at the concepts not the story, because you can see how they accelerate faster that light and they are using physics, remember the laws of physics keep changing as our understanding increases.
The Orioin and other Nuclear Drvie technologies were developed in the late 1950's to early 1970's , but using the technology of today we could improve , enhance and increase the performance of those systems and control over those systems.
All I was saying the existing technology can be used to move around our solar system and we continue to develop faster and faster drive systems.
GCNRevenger,
It was science fiction that has show the science reality the way before the science reality has proven it works. Cold fusion was a myth , now fact. 200 years ago we didn't have cars or planes or electricity all not practical and now look at us, don't think we can't find that hyperspace does work and how to access it in the next 200 years.
Faith , openess to new ideas, and a drive to discover is the heart of a true pioneer and explorer.
Austin Stanley,
I agree that the orion drive has limits but coupled with hyperspace travel through a jumpgate system would be useful.
Hyperspace travel happened on earth, mid 1940's by accident with an experiment with electromagnetic cloaking. We just need the research from those experiments and using today's technology could make it more stable and useful, then you have increased the range.
Of Course as our technology advances so does our understanding of space prpulsion and new forms are developed and replaced existing forms. But We need to expand into the solar systems and then up to 100 lights years from earth and then beyond. We need to have supply lines for colonization and also economic connections, communication connections and society connections including a political structure as well. Alot for the next 100 years or so.
You would require a continuous "artifical gravity" type effect for the local area to make sure that the human being doesn't lose the bodily functions.
You could make all females having children to remain on spinning spac stations until they have their children and the children will be required to stay onboard until they reach adulthood or returned to earth or similar 0.7-1g environment for health reasons.
Well,
I think you don't get it , The orion drive was designed for interstellar voyages. We need to work on a complete method of human and cargo movements from earth to orbit, from orbit to moon, orbit to mars, moon to mars, and orbit to outer planets.
Most of the long haul voyages could be serviced by the orion drive and the nerva engine could be used for local space movement ( earth - moon space including the L points ). This would also provide a reduced cost base for resource movements within this region and improve the scalability for the space industry sector.
NERVA Engine could also provide the right conditions for large scale expansion in orbit , at L points and Lunar surface with large caro hauls possible with limited fuel requirements.
We could also develop a large space probe with an orion drive, large electric power , computer memory and scientific systems platform for a 30,000 + Au orbit around our solar system and relay information that they collect back to earthor through this interplanetary bases.
All these things are possible if, we move the right way with the technology, ship design, and implementation of technology throughout all space faring nations.
Every group ( US, Russia, China, Europe, and private corporations ) are all looking for a base on the moon by the 2015-2050 timeline. The Workshop that NASA held last Nov, had representatives from each major space nation and them provided a forecast of the future and Russia looking at an automated lunar base by 2015-2020 in a crater on the surface.
The Russians are experts in robotic units and I wouldn't put it past them to meet their targets with the automated base start processing ore, and other deposits on the surface.
The nuclear fission reactor type engines could be used for rapid transit between earth and moon at a reduced fuel consumption. I would like also to see a feasibility on the use of fission ractor drive systems in a earth to orbit ( including a one-way booster attachment for leaving in orbit for space development of transfer vehicles for the moon, and long range larger probes for the outer parts of our solar system.
The Orion Engine Systems could be used from earth to mars and beyond. With Hyper velocity around the solar system colonization becomes a cost effective means to expand the space resources.
The first developments are needed within our solar system. With improvements the Mark 1 type drives will be replaced with Mark 2 and so on. But, we would have space stations, colonies and mining stations on asteroids and more.
Again alot of this technology, control mechanisms, software applications, testing and virtual testing process are all needed to be developed and installed before we even get a finish drive system off the ground and into space.
Commodore,
The reason it costs alot in America, and Europe Space Programs is the cost of labor in Western Terms. China could purchase the construction , manufacturing and other non- critical labor at a lower cost then we have, at present, over the next few years the wages costs will rise , but that is after the development of ground facilities, living areas for staff, training facilities to expand the crew facilities and more. The Chinese Universities could be used to develop the telerobotic systems and help deploy these assets before the Americans and European keeping the development costs for the space station and other space based assets down .
I wouldn't put it past, the chinese to commence the development of a chinese owned and managed space station in 2008 to usher in a new vision for china and the global extension of the chinese national identity.
China can learn from the work completed by the Russians and Americans for their economy and also space program. The chinese have an impressive program to be a major power in space like US, Russia, and EU.
It is possible to achieve this within 20 years because they have no hassles of the past developments to complicate things. When you design a launch facility with the expandability the chinese have, the large popluation they can use in this venture, the needs of their country for resources and power generation, all like US then you can understand why they want to get to the moon at or before the other major powers to have their country survive and prosper.
The issues are more the political structure that the people are managed by and the military structure within the government of china can change the issues for space exploration, colonization and permanent movement into space for humanity.
So, Many people are worried and concerned of chinese motives and also you need to add that india as well they are looking to increase their space program.
Well, the definition of CEV under NASA is more than "apollo style capsule program " It means all transport for humans in space from earth -to-orbit, in-space, transportation in space and landing on earth or other bodies.
They are looking for the infrastructure to expand humans into space but within the NASA Budget issues. They have also listed other items including robotic assistants under this crew exploration system development.
I have some hope they are going the right way finally !!!!!!
:band:
Martian Republic,
I would first look at building a underwater city as a prelude to colonization of space becuase it has similar issues that we could study including human life science factors.
Secondary by-product would be an increase of the borders of United States into the ocean and develop the resources under the sea to expand the wealth of the country through taxation, resource leasing and population growth.
Thirdly, The use of the underwater city as a long duration living and working would be part of their mars training and crew motivation and social dynamics.
I agree that the debit and credit structure need an overhaul but they need to be expanded into a structure that will accommodate space locations and underwater locations with different financial concerns and issues, we might want to separate the land, sea, space activities within the treasury debt structure thus it could manage the value of the securities for the marketplace and can manage risks associated with the activities.
It hard to explain the complexities util we start working through them and managing the ever expanding country's GDP into space and under the sea.
Martian Republic,
Yes the current economy in United States isn't going to work for the long term expansion into space. We have to develop alliances through work sharing ( ISS example ) that is not working or economy integration such as EU development with Canada and Mexico to start and call it North American Republic both Canadian Citizens and Mexican Citizens and US Citizens will have a major issue about merging into one country.
Or we innovate and expand our countries assets underwater and into space through innovation using robotics and and new building methods and processes. We need a "think tank" of building , construction, engineering and other development faculties that will expand the understanding into new regions for humans to live and work.
Then the comhined resources could match the growth into space required to expand humanity into the solar system.
Euler,
I understand that !!!!
You could develop larger unmanned vessels with larger information systems and other scientific instrument packages and also remote cargo pods to transport satellites for deployment into orbits or land unmanned probes to the surface of planetary bodies. These unmanned vessels would used in multi-mission activities or deployment of navigation and / or communication networks within our solar system and beyond without the use of manned exploration vehicles.
All this happens before we could leave the earth space !!! Allowing us to test the new systems, engine design, gravitational systems and also development of newer technology that would enhance the manned missions to Mars and beyond.
My previous statements was explaining the requirements for manned space exploration outside earth space and the various infrastructure requirements needed to support the manned activities, and the infrastructure for testing the Orion Engine , derivatives and other facets that are required for humanities' expansion into our solar system.
The Orion Project and derivatives are the best hope for expanding Humanity into space for colonization until we have other technological innovation.
But , before we go with those engine systems we need the infrastructure in earth space from space stations, space labs , space construction platforms and also on the moon for material resources for the development process before we look at the expansion of humanity in any meaningful way including Mars colonization.
We need to support our people on Mars, in transit and also the explorer vessels past mars. We need communication infrastructure and navigation infrastructure and optical monitoring systems to manage the long term and not the short term " wagon train " journeys, they might be explorer vessel short term missions , not colonization missions for permanent settlement development.
When development of space vessels - dadelaus probe was several hundred meters long and to build that vessel you need major infrastructure, to build an explorer vessel 100+ meters long ( to carry 6-12 crew ) will require space dock facilities on the space station or separate ( again more infrastructure ) we need to push the required infrastructure before the missions for space.
We need more computer modelling of the Orion and derviative engine designs and virtual space testing, Alot of the computer testing systems don't exist and need development. The complexity of the engine designs will require complex computer monitoring , control and management systems again don't exist. When we have done all that development and virtual testing we will be on more developed in space to build a test vehicle in earth orbit or standalone platform.
But at the end of the day, we want to expand humaniy into space and we need the infrastructure , governments, corporates, and individuals to work together to meet this objective.