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Now we have a pool of criminals (x% of the species) we all agree deserve execution. How does our analysis proceed from here? Which receive execution and which do not. Why?
Well i believe only criminals who commit the harshest of crimes and who we are close to 100% without a doubt sure they are guilty should die.
examples: Serial killers, genocide, multiple repeated rapings and paedophilia, excessive repeated grievous bodily harm (for instance when a gang member goes out an paralyses a person and than does so again a few weeks after getting released from jail.)
all i can think of right now
I see where you're coming from here, but there's a problem: This argument is essentially saying "we can't build an unarmed society, but we'll try to anyway." It acknowledges basic realities then refuses to conform to them, it's rather odd.
The point i was trying to make was that we should try in earnest to create a peacefull society but i was acknowedging my sometimes pessimistic attitude that due to human nature might be impossible. But we should do everything we can :up:
And on capital punishment i have absolutely no doubts that when a person knowlinging goes out with the intent to murder another human being for reasons of only death that that person has forfeited their rights as a human being by taking another persons.
p.s i didnt intent that to sound angry i was stating my opinion and im not always pessimist, theres always a chance that we could succeed 100% in what we try to do.
ive been meaning to look at this topic more closely but i havent
oh yeah and sorry for the spelling but for some reason i just dont care today. (usually i spell perfectly)
basically your debating capital punishement, and religion:
well i believe that capital punishment is essential for particularly violent crimes where the criminal is found to be guilty without a doubt and there is no chance of rehabilitation (or the crime is so bad i.e. genocide he should die). But for all other crimes i beleve alternate measures are required as everyone should get a chance to change.
And religion:
Basically im atheist and i would love mars to be only inhabitated by intelligent atheists and it could be a kind of new perfect race. But hey that justs a stupid dream. I have NO problem with religon which is practiced in private and only affects YOU and you alone. But the moment when a relgious person tries to use their beliefs in politics or start a mass-conversion crusade it has to stop period. The problem with open religion can be seen on earth: in the bloody family first party (yes im austrlian) getting a seat in the senate and pushing through all kinds of discriminatory policies and other policices which are holding back our country through their alliance wiht the liberals. :realllymad: not to mention the christian zealot george bush as his Holy Jihad against hte middle east but thats a different argument, and the brutal regiemes in the middle east, INCLUDING ISRAEL, but htat also is another argument.
neway:
I believe simply when we go to mars we should try to make all the problems of earth not be transported to mars. kinda like a fresh start if you know hwat i mean. Mars is our chance to get it right. But realistically the first colonies will start like this but as the population grows it will inevitably turn into another earth.
oh i almost forgot: for those who participated in the other debate about, gun ownership and military strenght you would notice i originally said guns should be outlawed and i then backpeddled and changed my opinion i wish to apologise for the confusion but i confused between two different times on mars:
i believe when mars just starts out as a few colonies guns and weapons should be banned as they are not needed to defend against anyone and i maintain guns cause problems not fix them. But eventually when mars becomes inevitably like earth and there is a significant danger to your life i believe gunownership and simliar laws will come inevitably come up.
anyway:
Mars: a fresh start!
I think religion should be allowed but it should be seperate from the controlling or government of the society as religious beliefs are dangerous to the overall good of the society and will eventually lead to its downfall into mars becomes like earth.
i got no problem if they leave it to themself and believe in private
I've got an idea, how about we create an official forum constitution. I will create the discussion/development thread if you all agree?!?
And i agree with the firearms issue. I think this thread is dying down, anyway
Sorry i took a while to get back to this but i gotta sleep you know.
About the education thing everyone should get a good education but not everyone will want to stay on to further study, some might want to leave at the equivalent of grade 10 i think that would be the start of college to you guys? and go immediately into the workforce. I mean not everyone wants a "higher level" job like a doctor and stuff. Anyway thats what i meant by chance.
About the levels of government i just thought it would be too much for one government to control the entire planet without help from a number of levels of government. But just two levels could work.
About the jails/convicting thing: Sorry i didn't add more details, but of course there is more to it than that, actually (whats the word) redemption or recovery system like on earth were the less serious criminals are taught how to function properly in society, the wrongs of their actions and are released back into society. There would be of course limits on labour work such as time and what type of convict can is put to work. And of course other types of punishment like fines and community service. And of course we would have a indepenant watch body to stop corruption.
About the firearms: Yeah i think i went overboard there. Let me clarify myself, i was just worried of mars turning into the US, where every man and his dog has a firearm. Hell you can get automatic weapons. Its a fact that in the US there is some 11000 firearm related deaths each year but in most other countries it is less than 200. Something like that is crazy, but of course people should be given a choice. Perhaps just restrictions on types of weapons. And permits, with background checks and stuff. And yearly checkins with police. But yes i was wrong and people should be allowed to defend themselves. But lets hope we have a society were you dont have get into a situation where you are forced to kill to defend your family.
Yeah freeland at first is a good idea to encourage growth in communities, and growth in population, etc.
I think laws need to be more detailed then commandment type things as criminals will be able to get away in numerous loopholes. Hell even on mars theres still gonna be snakelike lawyers.
About drugs: In any circumstance where you threaten anyone else's life or property than there should definently be a law against drugs and that circumstance. But i can understand if you just use it for your own personal use without harming anyone (except yourself of course). But this is a very touchy issue and would a lot more serious discussion.
Religion and politics: I am aware this is also a very controversial subject as many people have very different opinons. But it is my strong belief that anything that creates such a strong difference among people, and people cant tolerate that. Will eventually lead to violence.
for example: (random example so dont nitpick and say, oh i bet if it was this religion it woudlnt of happened): Say we get a particularly strong christian believer who is absolutely sure of himself that gays and lesbians are totally wrong and against nature. Sure hes not monster so he doesnt kill them all but he brings in legislation that pressures them and makes them even more seperated from society and so they start rebelling and violence insues. Of course there are many other examples, some not even to do with religion.
But overall we must have a single unified goals. Everything done for the good of the planet.
Yeah, im a long time lurker first time poster. Wouldve posted on a few things allready but i prefer to read and everythings is pretty much said anyway.
And i might join the Mars Society Australia when i have enough cash, i.e. when im out of university and have a halfdecent job.
By the way i started reading this fairly good book by Ben Bova titled "Mars" it describes the first human trip to mars and is quite a good read (so far anyway im on page 191)
I believe governments like the US will make the first step, for the country's image or whatnot, but eventually the funding will go down and interest will wane. Private industry is where the future lays, if you can get private companies to go to mars, and mine it or something, action will really get done.
This does not mean governments would not be needed, i just think that governments like the US and nasa are to slow to act or do anything.
I can't believe what i am seeing on this forum. Im seeing thoughts of anarchy, communism, extremist religion, and numerous constitutions all with "great rights" [insert sarcastic tone].
Here is my optimistic approach:
And while this wont happen straight away, eventually when mars becomes independant this is what should happen.
Government: A people's democratic government elected by the people with a system of
World -> Federal -> State -> local
With numerous independant watch bodies to make sure everything stays right. With all goverment officials elected by the people.
Rights and laws:
I saw one constitution which looked like it combined all the problems of america and other countries into one paper.
Guns and weapons: Firearms outlawed. The government military may have weapons to an extent for defence but civilians do not need weapons. The idea of a weapon for self defence is stupid because you will end up killing yourself or your family and it just doesn't work.
Religion: Freedom to practice any religion you wish with certain conditions.
1. ABSOLUTELY no mixture of religion and politics. It is not in a nations best interest for religious values to determine the course of a nation.
2. TOLERANCE acceptance and respect of your fellow person's religion.
3. Do not try to change, convert, or any other way ram religion down anyones throat.
4. So practice what you want, privately.
A fair go for all. No discimination based on sexuality, gender, or race.
Jails and capital punishment:
1. NO death penalty, except for extreme crimes where there is no hope of change. Im thinking genocide, or serial killers.
2. Jails, but inmates are put to work to better the overall state of mars. It can be gardening or smashing rocks, whatever.
3. Have the same laws pretty much which are here on earth. Except the laws which currently discrimate, such as the no stem cell research and same gender marriage.
Most importantly a voice for all people. Every year or so a forum should be held, where all citizens can raise an issue that is important to them and is acted upon.
And all things must be done for the benefit of the entirety of mars.
Buying of land, is at first to be distributed from the government and later on you must apply to the government and stating how you would use the land to benefit mars and otherwise use it. Eventually as the population grows land will have to be bought.
EDUCATION and HEALTH:
Every single child should have the chance at a good education. And everyperson should have a chance at healthcare.
hrrm, can't think of any other topics quite yet. Ill edit this later.
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