New Mars Forums

First of all Cobra Commander, I want to know what "the real problem is"

Of course you may be right about my statistics (after all 47.25% of all statistics are made up on the spot) but dern it it's the only solution I can think of to end poverty, which has plagued mankind since the end of the Stone Age.

And has it ever occured to you that the poor might not be made lazy by the government providing universal shelters, public transportation, and health care but that it might help greatly reduce the amount of poverty in the US and the world and help people aspire to get a job (again created by the government). Of course there will be some freeloaders but it will be worth it if there are a thousand decent people who get help for every freeloader that is able to engourd him or herself.

Oh and the socialist countries you name all have some of the highest GDP's in the world, hardly what I would call "declining". And Yes, unlike our "president" I know that Europe is not a country but the European Union, if it ever became an actual country, would have a higher GDP then the United States.

Besides if you really are afraid of the poor freeloading do what I call "the direct approach". Here's an example, my uncle (a libertarian) lives in New York City which has streets full of poor people all asking for some cash. So, how does he know which poor will actually spend money on food and which will spend it on crack, he takes the direct approach and offers to take them to a resturant and buys them food, if he's not in a hurry (and no I'm not making this up). So instead of giving them cash the government should give people what they need like job training programs, homeless shelters, home construction projects, universal health care (you know like the rest of the developed world has), and public transportation so people can get to thier jobs if they can't afford transportation. This will attract people who just need a little help and will turn-off freeloaders

I don't think that charity makes people more discouraged if there is anything that can be shown with the New Deal is that the knowledge that someone actually gives a $#!* will make people reach for the stars.

Oh and these governments that you think would work if everyone cooperated have nothing to do with cooperation. Fascism and Communism are all about a few people maintaining thier power.

You're forgeting two things

1) It only took one Jesus to change the world
2) Some people (including myself) believe that Judas might have been merely anti-Jewish propoganda.

Out of curiosity I would like to know what you would do in the following situation:

On Earth it's April 2,2139. The worst that's been feared has happened.

Ten years ago a war broke out between the United States and the Second Muslim Empire (SME). The Empire lost but was not destroyed and unfourtunatly some Martian colonists were discovered to be mercenary soldiers for the Empire (in exchange for a chance for some Martians to return to any families they might have left behind in Imperial territory). Worse the mercinaries carried out some of the most terrorist attacks against America for the Empire.

After that life became a living hell for Martians. Rights that normally aplied to Americans and, by de facto, Martians were stripped from the Martian colonists. Imprisonment without trial, political imprisonment, torture, military endraftment, government surviellence, and police brutality became the norm. All of this was done in the name of security from terrorist attacks, some of which were commited on Martian colonies, which provided vital revenue to the United States

This was not helped by the fact that Martians had, for years, been kept from developing thier own enterprises, implementing technologies they invented, imprisoned on their own world, and kept from making more colonies by draconian population controls.

For some time a small underground group called Liberty's Torch had been protesting (peacefully) the US rule of Mars and had been pushing for Martian independence under the banner of human rights, a direct democracy, and spreading mankind across the stars. Until recently the movement was small and obscure but with the neo-fascist laws established by the US, it became popular and, after the bloody New Plymouth Massacre, declared that only violent revolution could free Mars from the grip of the US.

Now, the day after the Battle of The New Athens Seventh Hemisphere Complex, the Liberty's Torch movement has won it's first victory. Now the colony is devided between Patriots; those still loyal to the red, white, and blue; and the Liberationists (or Libers), fighting for a free Mars.

As a citizen of Mars you must make a choice.

So which side would you fight on? Would you side with the Patriots, convinced that these laws are in place to protect all Martians from any more heinous attacks by the SME and that we should remain loyal to the US which is the homeland of many Martians? Besides the US is militarily stronger than Mars, so the US is more likely to win.

Some would side with the Libers saying that most Martians came here to escape persecution on Earth and if war is the only way to be free, then so be it. Besides if Mars can hold off the first wave they can throw of the second wave (which would take three months to get to Mars) by capturing the anti-spacecraft batteries built by the US and shooting the US reinforcements out of the sky with thier own batteries.

Of Course you might stay neutral (or at least try to) because you might think you can escape the carnage and that this war will be good for nothing.

By the way Earth and its other colonies have vowed to kill any Martians that try to escape Mars so flight is not an option.

I never said novel was the goal. Of course you win on the progressive one but still I think that if people are more involed in government a more humanitarian world (or solar) view would develop

Kuratink, your an idiot. Democracy is at least ten times better than a traditional monarchy and Mars should be one nation. There are already 192 nations on this planet, we don't need another 192 nations on Mars

MarsGuy, this is exactly the kind of tax I've been advocating as a socialist and yet you libertarians have the same idea. Maybe you ideology is not as idiotic as I origionally thought it to be. Of course like all libertarians you are infected with the false ideology that free enterprise is essentially the best way to get rid of tyranny. However Enron has nailed the lid on the coffin that laisse-faire capitalism can be almost as harmful to mankind as a totalitarian leader. Get that through your head. Also the tax classes will need to be adjusted as the value of the dollar fluctuates (and it will fluctuate) and gross income for each social class changes. Also I think that the money of the wealthiest should go to provide basic neccessities to the poor (you know like food, water, medicine, shelter, and clothes) for free (at least to the poor).

Excuse me runnerbrax but you seem to fail to grasp the idea that people can (at least in the far future) directly govern themselves if people could know anything or vote instantenously than humans in a nation could govern themselves. Athens thrived on a rather constricted but yes, direct democracy for hundreds of years so pardon me if I can't believe that humans can eventually learn to think for themselves and be "team players" as you called it (However, though I'm a socialist I'm not a communist).

Besides your lumping all the many diverse (but, at best, not quite as good as a republic)governments into two simplistic governmental systems.

Admittedly Winston Churchill was able to group all the world's forms of government's into two catagories but they differ from you groupings. Here is his grouping "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others"

Actually Cobra Commander until humanity can find a better enemy than itself (It's sad but true it's human nature to fight each other for what we want/need) yes we will have wars and yes Martian nationalism would be better than settlement nationalism because at least we would only have two nations (Earth vs. Mars) instead of all these different Earth nations fighting all these Martian nations in all sorts of combinations.

Maybe I'm being pessemistic, however once I look at human history I think I'm being realistic.

Ian, I hope humanity shreds the idea of nationalism if we go to Mars. However perhaps it won't unless something would unite all Martians against a common enemy before any settlement vs. settlement conflicts began

Mr. Beach this is (I know, I know I'm stating the obvious) a thinly disguised story of the Mayflower. The government a Plymouth was good except for one thing...It was theocratically influenced. The Pilgrims did not allow women to vote, slaughtered Native Americans (admittedly after fifty years of peace and there will be no natives to slaughter on Mars), massacerd religious dissenters, and organized witch-hunts. What they called moral communities we'd call dictatorships, so you'd best be wary of how you use the words "moral communities" because one day that could mean a theocratic and dictatorial regime on Mars. We want society to progress on Mars, not retrogress

First of all Cobra Commander, the US Constitution was a fairly novel idea for it's time and it has survived more or less intact for over two hundred and twenty-five years. Secondly it's probably not a good idea to quote a fascist (Benito Mussolini).

Mr. Beach, Its almost perfectly politically correct, but your missing a few things. One the communists might outnumber the socialists (this would be especially likely to happen if China got to Mars) and thus be denied thier political freedom. Secondly there also needs to be a capitalist section of the Martian colony. Hey, I'm not a fan of capitalism, but I believe that if this was a truly politically correct colony it would have a few capitalists and I don't see any in you colony (although I admittedly speed read through you post )

It's not a bad effort but it's rather unimaginative