New Mars Forums

Frivolous lawsuits is one thing.

But, what does that have to do with whether we build subways or super trains system or nuclear power plants?

We need those things!

So let build them.

Larry,

I suppose so.

When someone make cut and dried choices that they can't support and then makes a blanket statement to support that cut and dried choice they made and then won't come off there position when someone else gives them several examples that interdict's the choice they made, then there is no point in going on with the discussion.

You never really answered my objection to you saying the government never produces any wealth, it only consumes. You basically punted of passed most of it and only picked what you thought you could kind get by with your concept that the government never produces any wealth at any time, case close.

So you have not really answered my challenge to you claim that the government never produces any wealth.

With that, it time to break off this discussion.

Have a Good Day!

Larry,

NASA has always contracted out to private US Companies to develop new technologies that they need to developed so they can complete the mission that they were given to do. They need some new engine or new type of metal or micro switches, etc, for some new project there doing  and NASA doesn't build it themselves, so they contract it out to the lowest bidder to develop it for for them. When those companies develop the new technology to have developed to build what NASA wanted built, then NASA buy that new product that the company developed for NASA. Now that company has a new product line, compliments of the US Tax Payer through the NASA contract to buy a particular product that didn't exist before it was developed. But, since NASA was the one that paid for the development of that new technology at some point in time that is also opened up to the rest of the US Business to use too. But, that company has first crack at using that technology first since they developed it. So a short time period is given them to redeem that technology first before other companies get a crack at using that new technology. Here where it get interesting when it opened up to all the other companies in America, because there all doing something else and they can all use that new technology for something different to serve another application.

The medical field will use those micro circuit to make wheel Chair that can be powered or managed by the people who are in the wheel chairs.

It is these other application like this that I keep referring to as the bases for creating that fourteen to one dollar return on our investment of going to the moon, which it where those micro circuit were developed. It both expands the US Economy and it also improves the life of the people that use that new technology. People who are in wheel chair, it gives them new mobility that they didn't have before and the list goes on.

Larry,

cIclops, your locked into a mindset of repeating propaganda with absolutely no bases in fact. You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see. I do not denie that the Government consumes a certain amount of wealth, but you can't support your claim that the Government doesn't create a certain amount of wealth either and doesn't provide goods and services the American people.

Examples of the US Government and government on all level inside the United States generating wealth:

1. The Tennessee Valley Authority. They are a government corporation that runs a series of dams, lakes, locks, Hydro-electric power plants.

2. The government issued credit that built rail roads and those congressional acts that created those rail roads. They were later privatized, but they were originally built and even run by the government on either the state or federal level.

3. The Army Corp of Engineers manages a series of locks and dams on most of American major water ways. Those locks and dams make much of the Mississippi and it tributaries navigable for caring freight on barges for the private sector. If the Army Corp of Engineers wasn't doing that, much of the Mississippi and it tributaries would be unnavigable to the private sector.

4. The Governments on all levels participate in building roads that make it possible for the private sector to get the resources they need to make there products and to carry there finished products to market.

5. The Government on all levels participate in building dams, to provide water to the cities and sewer system to carry the waste away. This is another good or service that they provide.

6. They build subway system in those big cities and there the only ones that could do it too.

7. The city air ports and the list goes on.

8 The US Post Office.

If this isn't generating wealth, then what do you call it?

Your problem is, when private enterprise does something like build a car. You call that generating wealth, but when the government does something like build a subway system, you don't call that wealth. Both the private sector and the government are providing transportation for people, but you call the private sector generating wealth, but you call the government a consumer.

Larry,

What you fail to understand cIclops is:

Beside the power and the authority of the United States to lobby taxes on the people, they also have the power to generate credit internally from it own self. We all know that the United States can generate a trillion dollars through taxes. But, what you don't seem to get in your head is that the US Government can also generate another trillion dollars worth of credit by calling it into existence by the power invested in them by the US Constitution. You seem to think that it not the best thing for the US Government to do, to have the US Government investing in building up the United States and the infrastructure that support a modern society. The truth of the matter is, if the US Government, state governments and city, county government didn't build that infrastructure, it wouldn't have gotten built and we wouldn't have a modern society. When the US Government has control over the credit system, they build up the physical infrastructure of the United States. When the Private banker have control over the credit system, they generate debt and draw money out of building up the physical infrastructure. They create companies like Bear Stearns that generate worthless piles of debts or derivatives. You can't wear it or eat it, it just exist and can bring down the financial house when comes down.

The US Government should have stepped in and taken over the Federal Reserve and declared it bankrupt and then Declare Bear Stearns Bankrupt and derivatives side of Chase bankrupt too along with the other banks that have derivatives also along with the rest of Wall Street. We would want to save the saving and checking account side of those banks, because we will need to setup a new economic system to replace the one that is in the process of collapsing. But, before you respond in protest to what I just wrote, consider this for a moment. There are only three possibilities that we can possibly have and they are:

1. Try to save this financial house of cards which is in the process of collapsing, like what they Bear Stearns. Bear Stearns is only the tip of the ice berg, Chase has 77 trillion dollars of worthless derivations. The Gross National Product of the United States for one Year is only about 7 trillion dollars.

What will happen?

You will have run away inflation and then the dollars will evaporate out of existence like the 1923 German Republic D Mark did. The only way that they slowed down the collapse and why we haven't collapsed already was the creating of over half a trillion dollars or more and maybe a trillion dollars or more. That there not telling us about. Which will be Hyper inflationary. Any attempt to save that worthless paper will destroy the US Dollars by Hyper Inflating it out of existence.

2. Do nothing and it will collapse on it own into a 1929 Depression, very simple.

3. Start off saying the whole system is bankrupt and it need US Federal Government to intervene to setup a new economic system to save the United States and the rest of the world too. You don't save those Bear Stearns derivatives. But you say to Bear Stearns, your bankrupts. Now we might be able to save your building. You say to the rest of Wall Street that has the same problem, bankrupt too and we not going to bail you out either. To Chase and the other banks that have derivatives, your bankrupt too. Now we will save your saving account and those checking accounts by individual and for those productive sectors of the US Economy like farmers, factories etc, because, we need them for setting up a new economy. Yes, we will keep you in business for there sake and not necessarily like what you did, but you will be re-regulated like what FDR did to hold you in check.

Part two of this operation of restarting the US Economy is the US Government building infrastructure like those four river projects of FDR. For Abe Lincoln, it was the Transcontinental rail road. The Second and First National Banks were government owned and operated banks that also had an infrastructural projects going on. That how the Eire Canal got built and most of the Rail Roads of the East got built. For John F. Kennedy, it was the National Moon Mission Goal that he set for the United States to achieve before this decade was out to land a man on the moon and return him safe back to the Earth. Now off of this government building program, we have private enterprise adding there input to the mex and an important part of the process too. So I am not suggesting a new idea. The idea that I am suggesting is what the United States does when everything else fails and then we goes back to it, because it works and because, nothing else does work. When every the United States goes back to it, we re-build ourselves after coming to near destruction with those failed policies that don't.

So what kind of infrastructure should the United States build to both rebuild America and advance the human race also?

1. Rebuild and modernize the rail roads.
2. Build a Nation Wide Amtrack levitated rail system for whole United States and offer it to the rest of the world too.
3. Setup a subway system for maybe 70 major city inside the United States to interface with those other rail system and the air port too.
4. Build nuclear power plants and put fusion on a very high priority to be developed and brought on line to replace fission power.
5. We want to develop new technologies, so we have a space program that has goals just outside our capability to accomplish with present technologies. We don't want off the shelf technologies for our space program. It defeats one of our primary reason for having a space program, which is to develop new technologies and not cycle through the same old stuff that we can get off the shelf. We are looking for the technological spin offs that John F. Kennedy got with his National Moon Mission Goal. He got a fourteen to One Dollar return on his investment. If we don't get that return on our investment in technological spin offs, then were not interested in the space program. You don't get technological spin offs with off the shelf technologies or you don't get very many technological spin offs with off the shelf technologies.

Larry,

Speaking of Social Programs:

What do you thing of Social Program for the rich people, by the bail out of Bear Stearns by the Federal Reserve fifty billion or more and then cycled through the Federal Government as debt with interest to pay too?

That on top of another four to five billion dollars that Federal Reserve has already created out of thin air to finance those rich people gambling debt and submitted credit created to the US Government to pay with interest. Actually, I would like to see those billion air and million air eat there own bad paper instead of having the Federal Reserve generate Federal Reserve Note that we tax payers have to pay back with interest. If they don't want to pay for social programs, then we should have to pay for there gambling debt.

That sound reasonable to me.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Larry,

The two main reason that the United States should spend money on space projects is:
1. To generate business activities for domestic manufacturers with government contracts. To create good paying jobs for Americans with good benefits.
2. Give government contracts to domestic business to develop new technologies so we can accomplish new national goals in space like the Kennedy Moon Mission Program. Which will cause technological spin off like the Kennedy Moon Mission did, like fourteen dollars returned to the US Economy for every one dollars in the Moon Mission Goal.

cIclops, you have the American tax payer finance some massive space project and then sacrifice those job good paying jobs so some of those same Americans can't have those jobs and sacrifice those technological spin off that can return fourteen dollars for every dollars invested in it, then no, I am not interested in that space program. Matter of fact cIclops, if you came up with that kind of plan, for having the United States finance a space program, then I would appose it and even demand that we get out of the space business. The only time that the United States has any right to get into any kind of project like that, is if it or the American People are receiving any benefits out of it. If we aren't getting any benefits out of it, then the United States shouldn't be investing in it. The United States should be engaged in financing major projects like building dams, roads, canals, a Kennedy type Moon Mission Program. No a space program that is beneficial to the United States, doesn't have to be detrimental to the rest of the world either and can also be beneficial to them too.

We object to the costly stealth bombers, because it returns very little back to the US Economy and even those costly stealth bombers of being out sourced overseas too. I use to work in an Air Craft Manufacturing Plant where they use to make F-16 Landing Gear. They closed down the factory and sent the equipment like mills, lathes overseas and now they make the F-16 Landing Gear for the US Air Force and not us. So we aren't even getting the right to build them either and we are being put out of business. However, we have the right to fly them into war with them and die in them, when they get shoot down. I rather do something more productive with our money like re-building the infrastructure inside the United States or do a Kennedy kind of Moon Mission Goal.

Larry,

The basic economic principle do not change whether it was the past colonization of the Americas or Africa or today for our plan to colonizing Mars. It will be government sponsored whether you like it or not or choose to agree with me or not. It a battle between two world views and two different banking system and concepts of what wealth is. It a battle between the British Empirical system and the American System of economic based around the US Constitution. It is the United States based on that republican government banking credit system that made the United State a great and mighty country and wealthy country compared to the rest of the world that was victims British Empire during most of the last 200 hundred years or so. Matter of fact, if the United States doesn't put the Federal Reserve into Bankruptcy and reorganized into a Third National Banking System and derivatives are canceled out because there worthless paper, then the United States will collapse and disintegrate as a nation. Bear Stearns has collapsed with it the sixth larges Wall Street derivative dealer. A major bank in Ohio has also collapsed and people can't get there money there. The US Dollars is dropping like a rock and other countries are starting to drop the US Currency as the world reserve currency. It was the Federal Reserve that caused the Great Depression in 1929 and it was the Regulation that FDR put into place and the credit that he generated to build those government projects that restarted the US Economy. It is the removal of those regulation and the going to a floating exchange rate by Nixon in 1972 that put us in the economic problem that we in now. This putting the Federal Reserve as the sole regulator for the banking and Wall Street is exactly what caused the Great Depression. The Federal Reserve is a private bank with a government charter to act like the central bank of the United States.

If you don't think that the Federal Reserve is a private bank, go to this web site for more information.

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5933

Larry,

There is an immediate benefit of the Federal Government financing those massive project like subways, super trains, dams, levees, NAWAPA, nuclear power plants.

The short term benefit is the millions of jobs that being created to build all those things and the tax base that being created from those new job that the American people are being employed to do.

But, as you said, there is a long term benefit that take time to get it. It would probably take twenty years to build a national levitated rail system for the United States. Then that infrastructure has about twenty to thirty year life expectancy before you have to replace it. So we are looking at a forty to fifty year life cycle for our national levitated rail system to build it and pay off those bonds and using it.

Larry,

Is this all your going to have for your Machine Shop?

One CNC Lathes, because that would be just about the weight of one fair size CNC Lathe that you would need to do your machining.

Were you planing on having an CNC multi-Axes Mill too?

Were you also planning on having grinder too for those fine finishings that you need to have for those close tolerances?

Were you also planning on having vices, clamps and other tie down pieces so you can hold your pieces down?

Were you also planning on having several types of tool holder for holding those different types of inserts and boring bars?

Were you planning on having drills of various sizes and grind wheels that it takes to resharpen those drills?

Were you also planning on taking up the tools for tightening up those bolts, like the end wrenches, Alan Head wrenches, ball peen hammers, rubber mallets, ect?

Were you also going to have welder too and the welding rods and brazing rods to weld two pieces together?

Do you think that three tons will be enough to get everything you think that you will need, for your minimum Mars Colony?

Larry,

The problem with going with the minimalist kind of colonisation is that you won't develop the technology that it will take to have a successful Mars colony, which we don't currently have right now. You will go with the infrastructure that you need to take a large population to Mars and to support them while you setting up that Mars colony. If we go with our current technology and with the current infrastructure in place to Mars, we will have a high mortality rate of anybody that we send to Mars and a small colony on Mars with absolutely no of making it a big human colony at all. After a ten to twenty or possibly even a thirty year time frame they will give the whole project up as being too expensive and because we are losing too many people in this Mars project.

What I am saying is, it physically impossible to establish a Mars colony by the means that your thinking of establishing a Mars colony of any size.

Chemical rockets are useless to us for colonizing of Mars, because there too slow, don't carry enough mass or cargo for the Mars colony and/or carry enough people safely to Mars for the colony that we want to setup on Mars.

We may or may not be able to send a small number of people using chemical rocket to Mar, but there will be a high mortality rate if we choose to use chemical rocket to send our astronauts to Mars for that small base. You will need radiation shielding and artificial gravity etc, which will further complicate the problems of using chemical rockets for your colonization project. Then the fuel is high mass with low energy output to push our ship to Mars. Yes, I heard of Mars Direct. I heard of manufacturing fuels on Mars, etc, etc. Whenever you bet the farm like that and make it a habit of betting the farm like this, it only a matter of time when you will lose your bet and people will die.

There only one way and only one way out of this problem and that to go nuclear or some other type of new high energy density source that can push a large mass with the minimal amount fuel mass like nuclear fission or fusion powered rockets. Which means you will have to develop that technology because it currently doesn't exist and we have to have it if we want to do our colonization program. The energy output of fission powered rockets is like several times to maybe a thousand times the output of chemical rocket with fusion power having two to four times the power of fission power.

Larry,

You would want to discard the Methanol and the Ethanol from your system too and go with Hydrogen Oxygen base fuel system only. The amount of labor and resources that you would have to invest in growing those plants and then converting it into Methanol and Ethanol would be a terrible waste of resource, labor, power and generate toxic waste also like it does on Earth.

If you go straight Hydrogen Oxygen based fuel using electric nuclear power plants for breaking up the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, then you get the maximum band for the buck for the minimum energy to produce that power with the minimum amount of labor to produce that power with the minimum amount of pollution created by using that energy supply.

All you got to do is crack water into it basic components of Hydrogen and Oxygen to get that power supply and place to store it until you use it. When you burn it, it waste product is water water vapor. So you don't have to worry about the pollution problem like you will with the other fuel in your list.

Larry,