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Whats going on with The Mars Undergound... website hasn't changed in awhile
figured this would be the place to go, since I haven't stopped by in about a year, looking at some of my last posts...
Can I get one for my SKS? how about my M-44 Carbine?
Probably not.. oh well..
I really doubt that the large scale drifts in magnetism have much to do with magnetic based deposits as opposed to large scale rock layers deposited while the pole where aligned in one direction or the other. thats what these maps tend to show, most obvious is in the sea bed which shows beautiful evidence of seafloor spreading. Most large scale mineral deposits that could influence the magnetism of the sensors are not large enough to be of significant resolution to affect the map.
the best example is the mesabi and vermillion iron ranges in Northern Minnesota are both very narrow in width. (I believe less then a mile for both)
AS far as vehicle weight, if this was an aorund base and short jaunt vehicle, I see no reason for it to be more then 1 ton. if you want 4wd, use two CA drive motors, one on each end. Use 6AL/4V Titanium, which is light and incredible strong, and less brittle. other then that, all you have is basicly a gator. 4 wheels, a drive system, a brake system. 12v DC Battery (probably the heaviest single component), a simple leaf spring non dampened suspension(it isn't going more then 10 mph). some glorified lawn chairs.. a simple vhf radio. Maybe some emergency oxygen tanks if they run short. Using the KISS method, I wouldn't be suprised if this thing could be brought in at less then 1200 lbs. The key is not trying to make it do everything. IT will be like a golf cart!
WOOOOOOOHOOOOO!
sorry, a 1-2 million dollar golf cart sounds interesting..
WOW!
I really like this idea.
The strengths of the CA idea would lend for a short trip slower moving rover of small size. I think the real debate should be how this energy is harnessed to drive wheels etc. But something where the vehicle was built around the tank for protection of the tank, and hauling 2 people and perhaps 100 kg or so of scientific equipment and or samples would make this a good little get around vehicle.
Coupled with efficient design, minimal rolling resistance and Gross Vehicle Weight, this would work amazingly well.
My only thought would be if you wanted to enhance the capability would be add some sort of reactant to the compressed air to increase the energy. But, I think just compressed air for power to the wheels and a 12 Volt battery of some sort to power on board electronics should suffive for a very simplistic and very usable design that would also be very BUDGET FRIENDLY!
I guess this is what I meant to say with my first comment. I scratched my head at this and said WHY. As stated there is no economic reasons to live on the Ocean floor. I also see no Scientific reasons. With Alvins replacement on the horizon and continues research into ROV design, I think this a moot point.. or more common sense to myself. Plus, I don't we are really capable of doing something much beyond 'Abyss' Style living..
that, and it would/could/might take money away from a Mars mission, so I am a bit biased. Band Aids won't fix the space program, and this would hurt it more.. we are in the territory of the straw that broke the camels back.
tracks.. vs.. Tires... I would vote tracks... If... the desired land speed was slow.. specialized RUBBER or synthetic tires for higher speed transport. Solid Axles. etc.. using items from the offroad Rockcrawling industry. With the Martian G being what it is, I think that many of the advantages of Tracks will be less noticed. You will be put less weight on a given foot print, Keep it simple.. As far as micron sized dust particles.. They will be an issue that Sharper image can't solve. I think the only way to truely pull these out of the air is through a water air filtration system or something of that nature. If someone wants to goto mars.. they will take the risk...
Speaking as someone that worked in a bike shop for 5 years, and used to be an Avid Mountain biked(no pun intended).
1.) Chain is not an issue.. light non stick wax based lubricant. it sheds off when dirt comes in contact with it. put a little on before you go.
2.) 35 PSI on earth is the lowest most people go on front or rear tires. I would guess 20 PSI would be doable in Martian conditions. if you go to low you will pinch flat. When the rim smashed the tube between the bottom of the tire do to underinflation.
3.) With the proper suit materials, rippage would not be an issue, nor would movement. They won't be racing.
4.) a slightly wider tire, say a 3" would be great for rough terrain.
5.) Saying gravity is working against you by not letting you get as much traction is false since everything weighs less. Less moments of Inertian in the wheel, less frame weight, exact same center of gravity, maybe a bit more for the suit. a simple spring/spring fullsuspension would work. maybe a bit boundy, but oil emulsion dampening may be tricky to work out.
6.) no O2 in Atmosphere.. NO Corrosion on steel to worry about for chain or bearings... :-)!
7.) Bikes are incredibly easy to work on other then trueing wheels. I doubt wheel strength would be an issue in Martian G.
Also, because of the Martian G, you won't fall as hard.. hence, less likey to rip suit. But I am sure there is some sort of advanced rip-proof fabrics being developed by companies such as Dupont et al as we speak.
Single Speed bikes are incredible simple and would work well! Also. with Titanium , pivotless full suspension is capable..
http://www.petry.org/markp/bowti.htm]Ibis BowTi
Best Picture I could find... hasn't been made for a few years.. But Titanium on bikes is a beautiful thing!
Just thinking about tracks over tires again... I was thinking about some of the advertisements for Mat-Tracks.. would be a nice simples track system, that would reduce the chance of getting stuck, and also do nicely over rough, rocky terrain.. Also.. a tread with a built in warmer might work well too. I really like the handling properties of rubber. I think it would work a lot better. There is also some much better compounds, plus multi compound tires that have come out in various sports that could be an idea. Dual tread compound bike tires due well, With a harder compound in the center and softer on the sides. I think it would be hard to simulate wear. Also, UV breakdown may be an issue.
The other thing is suspension.. Some sort of spring and damper system would be good. I don't like the idea of bouncing up and down like the lander, especially if any speed over 10 pmh is to be achieved. even something simple would work. But once again, temperature and pressure could play hell with a standard oil emulsion shock..
Just trying to think it through..
Also... I know the Marines use hover crafts... I don't know what kind of terrain they can go over... also, threoretically, the more air you can push, the higher you can suspend yourself.. But I think a wheeled or tracked vehicle is more feasible, more simple, less expensive, lighter, more versatile.. etc...
The experts at this are the Japanese
Don't count out Alvin and the rest of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. My sister went down in Alvin three times studying the high sulfur enviroments and the symbosis that enable the organisms to flourish through bacteria. I don't know the details, but I know Alvin is pretty high tech. It is being replaced though with something newer and better.
I think the tech required for Ocean Colonizing, especially at deep depths is above what we have now. It would be expensive. Probably on par with a Mission to Mars, Zubrin style.
Oh well.
One very crucial part to any new space undertaking is the developing new technologies. These new technologies will trickle down into our every day lives. Many people take that for granted. People don't think about Velcro, Microwaves, MRIs, etc etc. as gifts from the space program. Yet, everyone has something that had velcro. Microwaves are in use almost everywhere. MRIs have saved thousands of lives.. probably in a year. More importantly is how small a portion of the budget the space program actually is. Compared to the military budget which is well over 200 billion dollars.
So, with all that to give me further ammunition. We should have gone to mars 25 years ago. So, we need to get there now, not for footprints and flags, but to stay... PERMANENTLY!
I know the U.S. Navy has operated C-130 aircraft in Antarctica when temperatures have been as low as -60 F and the only problem they had with their tires was that they would freeze to the ice at times.
LC-130s use Skis, the C-141s use tires on a runway that is iced over.
I don't think that tires being brittle should be an issue. If you want to use tires, then you should be able to design a tire that is functional from 100 to -100 celsius. look at Motor Oil. Who would have thought you would get 5w-50 50 years ago.
Anyway, I think tracks have their advatages over tires. If you want to go fast, I would recomment tires, if you want to go slow, probably tracks. But, I believe in the KISS principle. Keep it simple stupid.. Lol. The less complex it is, the less likely it is to break. It is usually quite a bit less expensive as well.
I know the U.S. Navy has operated C-130 aircraft in Antarctica when temperatures have been as low as -60 F and the only problem they had with their tires was that they would freeze to the ice at times.
LC-130s use Skis, the C-141s use tires on a runway that is iced over.
I don't think that tires being brittle should be an issue. If you want to use tires, then you should be able to design a tire that is functional from 100 to -100 celsius. look at Motor Oil. Who would have thought you would get 5w-50 50 years ago.
Anyway, I think tracks have their advatages over tires. If you want to go fast, I would recomment tires, if you want to go slow, probably tracks. But, I believe in the KISS principle. Keep it simple stupid.. Lol. The less complex it is, the less likely it is to break. It is usually quite a bit less expensive as well.
I have given some thought to this over the last few days. I see two direct hinderances to magnetic propulsion.
1.) power of the magnet.
Theoretically a powerful enough magnet could interact with the magnetosphere to effectively push against the Earth Magnetosphere. Of course the electricity demands and design would be unheralded.
2.) alignment
The poles of the magnetic field created would have to be aligned with the poles of Earths magnetic field. this could be done by many ways, but it also an equal hurdle to overcome.
All in all, I think the technology exists or is with reach to make this happen for a basic research design model.. a proof of theory so to speak.. and with possible breakthroughs, could prove to be very feasible and efficient.
I was curious on peoples thoughts and constructive criticism.. ie, I am a stupid git is acceptible.
OLIVINE - Presence of olivine (both in situ and in soil?), argues against significant surface water, due to olivine?s rapid erosion by water due to its disequilibrium with surface environments.
Olivine is found on various paces on Earth in various conditions.. also, Mars has been dry for long enough that olivine could have come on the surface, post-wet.
NO GOETHITE - Presence of crystalline hematite (Fe2O3), while simultaneously lacking evidence of an associated goethite or a gossan/ iron hat structure to indicate hydration effects of water on hematite (generally, Fe2O3 + HOH --> 2FeO(OH)). Gossans are how hematite is typically found on earth for iron mining.
Is there no possible Chlroine or Salt interaction to strip off the 'Gossan'. Never heard of a Gossan for Iron before. Also, the majority of Iron mining I know of is Magnetite.
I am no going through all of your last points. To me, it seems basic that there has been no water on Mars for a long time. I will not venture a guess, but a minimal-maximal time
10 million-2 billion years.
Since wate has not been on the surface, and water is a an important component in lithification of many sedimentary rocks, you just have a lot of blown quatrenary sediment. and maybe some tertiary conglomerate.
I don't expect to see facts out in the open until these people get published. Thats generally how this shit works. If they put out the raw data, and some one else published it before them, they could lose credit for it. Be patient. You will get access to raw data one the missions are done.
btw, what formal geology training do you have?
I think the ISS serves it's purpose, if it is ever finished and fully staffed. There is plenty of long term zero-G Micro-G research that could be done. Plus getting people to pay for research to be done etc.. Finish it, get it done. Leave it there.
All I know is that the only two presidents in the past forty years who've called for an exciting expansion of human space exploration beyond Low Earth Orbit, have been called Bush and were Republicans.
The First ones was poorly executed, and impossible to fund. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it... There are plenty of moderate democrats that support the Space program, but it's not a major issue. Should it be..
If I am not mistaken, it is a Special interest.
A special interest catering to the minds of us nerds, and the pocketbooks of the likes of Lockheed, and Boeing. (there used to be more companies but they all merged so they could get richer from the government.
As a president would you first issue be to forward the Space program when you have so many other things going on, that arguably make the space program seem trivial at points?
Just keep everything in perspective please. After All, Dubya is more concerned about Iraqi and Afghani Hearts and Minds then American ones!
The very politically worded speech done with little extra cash in the short run definitly helps it's chances to goto fruitation.
I don't see the any big need to not be able to fork over a billions dollars over 5 years.
Also.. once the F-22 and F-35 procurement is done, the military budget will go down a touch. Especially once we are not so involved in the Middle East. I predict this to be around 2008-2009.
So, we may have a few extra billion a year to throw around.
It also may not be a bad Idea to set a contract to buy into Soyuz modules, just to ensure we have access to space..
Just a thought.
Hmm. sounds like a great way to lift infrastructure.
Whats transit time? A few months?
Sounds like a great way to park a base camp on the Moon. and to park some infrastructure on Mars.
Our lifter Technology needs some work, but I think with some modifications existing equipment can be used to get us into LEO, and then get some alternate means to get past that.
I think, for the time being,(30-60 year) Chemical is going to be the only way to get the Delta-V to LEO.
Posted on Jan. 20 2004, 01:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Could these valleys and gullies really be the product of dust flows?
I have seen some of the theory that this could be the case in some instances. I know there is water at the poles.
Glaciers carved up the Earth, could they be the result of this same process there?
Have you considered massive flows of mud triggered by a catastrophic global event? Some recent data suggests that there is subsurface water on Mars. If the water was frozen, sudden vulcanism could cause the flow of massive amounts of mud.
Well, all types of erosion usually have some sort of tell tale sign. Glaciation leaves moraines, drumlins, eskers, cirques.. etc. Dust erosion, umh, wind erosion works.. look at Arches National Park. The true signs that will give away erosive natures will show under close scrutiny or high res photographs.. resolutions that could read license plates! The NRO needs to let NASA borrow some tech for the next orbiter!
Rxke Posted on Jan. 16 2004, 11:45
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What do you mean , Sethmckiness? That they have to do more readings or...
Read this quote
This graph, consisting of data from the Mars Exploration Rover Spirit's mini-thermal emission spectrometer, shows the light, or spectral, signatures of carbonates - minerals common to Earth that form only in water. The detection of trace amounts of carbonates on Mars may be due to an interaction between the water vapor in the atmosphere and minerals on the surface.
from Nasa...
Basicly what it means to me is that is MAY be something.. but not for sure.. merely a Hypothesis. So, with more information, maybe a more solid answer could be arrived at.
Enyo, We won't be back to the moon before Bush is out of the White House.. The presidency is limited to two terms. Also, thats under the impression that he gets re-elected. Being that this is the first thing Bush has done That I like, I am not voting for him.
Byron.... have you been watching Gattaca?
Interesting.. Thanks for the clarification. Doesn't look convincing but looks with some more information..
but yesterday we come to find out that carbonates are local, and we have two signatures.
Do you have anymore information... you kinda lost me?