You are not logged in.
Void,
Even if that Aluminum-ion battery was twice the stated price, it would be a bargain compared to a Lithium-ion battery. Either these electric vehicles come down in price to something comparable to gasoline engines, without sacrificing all pretense of build quality the way the Chinese manufacturers have done, or they'll never be practical. They don't need to be rolling computers on wheels, either. All the optional extras are fine if they don't radically increase cost and work reliably, but quality computers and sensors will never be cheap. It's the nature of the cutting edge tech beast. Present day Silicon-based AI chip technology will never be capable of reasoning as a human does because it consumes multiple orders of magnitude too much power to do so.
A human brain computer equivalent is still very much akin to the giant room-filling computers of the 1950s. It's optical chips or bust, because only full optical computers can reduce the power requirements to something on-par with a human brain- from 20MW to 20W. After we reduce the input power required to simulate human brain reasoning capacity by 6 orders of magnitude, then lots of things are possible. I don't know if AGI or "super-intelligence" is even possible, because it presumes we humans have the capacity to create such a thing, but until then we'll never know. The software required has yet to be written, but we're working on that and initial results look promising. The software development moves much faster than the hardware tech necessary to run it efficiently. We have tools now that governments would kill for back when I was younger man. They probably did and will.
I have a bigger question, though:
How do you coalesce all of this new "wonder tech" into something approximating useful tools for society to put in its tool belt?
A sledgehammer is still a grossly inappropriate tool to use to kill flies. Sure, it'll work, but that's also a lot of heavy lifting when dealing with the endless stream of day-to-day annoyances.
Beyond that, how do we answer the question of what to pursue?
There are opportunity costs to everything. We ought to have human-based priorities, such as curing cancers / diabetes / heart conditions, figuring out how to construct energy generating machines, when and where to apply our most advanced tech vs when to simply let slower but "more human" process play out.
Can you even imagine how potentially dangerous biotech will become when we have this new tech?
Everyone worries about nuclear weapons, but even the wildest of men seem to understand that actually using them is a world-ending proposition. Even after COVID happened, we were still allowing scientists to toy with viruses in labs like children play with their dad's pistol. All involved ought to know that it can only end badly, and they can't credibly claim that they didn't know what could and likely would happen, yet they do it anyway. A lot more "adult supervision" will be required for people who are nominally "adults", but "not adults" when it comes to their own field of expertise. No amount of education is able to inculcate prudence, or so it would seem. That remains a real and deadly serious problem, even after we develop AGI and all other manner of remarkably powerful tools.
Perhaps the first and most important task for AGI will be to teach people "how to think", where so many humans only taught people "what to think". On that note, we're going to need to teach AGI the same thing.
RobertDyck,
How else do you provide inter-generational prosperity and social mobility to your own people without locally making the things they use every day?
That's not a rhetorical question. It's a serious question that deserves a thoughtful answer. You're the one who has sought political power. I would think you would have answers to this type of question, because people who would vote for you surely would want to know.
What's your counter-proposal?
List alternatives that you think would make a genuine difference in the lives of people living here who are stuck on the bottom 50% to 70% of the rungs of the socioeconomic ladder. I'm not talking about a day, week, month, or even a year. I'm talking about lifetimes. If you've never thought about this before, then maybe you should.
RobertDyck,
Regardless, now you can buy one for $10 in 2025. I posted a link to it. Grossly exaggerating doesn't help lend credibility to your beliefs.
GW,
Aerospace has gone from natural composites to metals and now to synthetic composites. There's no acceptable substitute for their strength. Every modern airliner in existence uses truck loads of synthetic composites. All or almost all payload fairings and inter-stages are now made from composites as well, and for the same benefits. That's why they're so fuel efficient and light. They're not "bad" or "wrong", just different. There are some things you can do to metals that you cannot do to composites, such as throw debris at them. There are also many things that can be done with composites that are impossibilities with metals. Off the top of my head, all modern turbofans and turboprops use composite blades because they're less than half the weight of metal and many times stronger. When a fan blade does let go, a composite Kevlar ring around the fan section prevents the blade from penetrating into the cabin of the airliner. A 700bar storage tank would be ridiculously heavy if it was made from steel or Titanium thick enough to reliably contain the pressure. Thankfully, CFRP is much lighter and stronger- light enough to locate the Nitrogen storage tank onboard the vehicle to spin-up the pumps.
Yes, composites are more difficult to work with than metals in certain ways. Aluminum is also more difficult to work with than steel. That hasn't stopped us from using Aluminum, so it's not a valid reason to abandon the use of composites.
tahanson43206,
I'm genuinely curious to know if LH2 works better as a fuel than RP1 as you scale-up the size of the rocket to deliver a 100t payload. I don't have any ideological beliefs about this. I only care about what the basic math tells us about the nature of the problem. If LH2 energy economics work more favorably at 100t than 25t, then that's what the ultimate answer is, regardless of what I or anyone else believes about it. Math won't change to suit anyone's beliefs.
I've done the math on Delta IV Medium and Falcon 9 Bock V to evaluate Total Impulse per kilogram delivered. I could get more sophisticated with the analysis, but really don't need to. What it tells me is that for the medium lift payload delivered, RP1 is the fuel of choice. However, when I look at Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy, I see a clear advantage attributable to LH2. Delta IV Medium / Heavy and Falcon 9 / Falcon Heavy are the closest "apples-to-apples" real world rockets we have to compare / contrast LH2 and RP1.
For the boosters, I evaluated Total Impulse of each stage at sea level only. I'm going to use 90% of vacuum Isp, which is pretty standard for booster evluation, and re-run the numbers. The point to the sea level only evaluation was that if LH2 didn't show a reduction in Total Impulse per kilogram of payload delivered there, then it wouldn't show one with 90% of vacuum Isp, either, since it goes up quite a bit for LH2. However, what I see thus far seems to favor LH2 for much larger payloads, because the simplistic sea level Total Impulse evaluation for Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy indicates much lower Total Impulse required to deliver a kilogram of payload to orbit, relative to Falcon Heavy. That means Delta IV Heavy is actually markedly more energy efficient than Falcon Heavy, which is critical for both a SSTO and for any LH2 fueled vehicle to make good economic sense. LH2 is a premium fuel, easily double the cost of RP1 per gallon. If we're going to use it, then we need to make a case for why it's more efficient to use it. For a small payload, we cannot make that case. For a much larger payload, initial results look very promising.
For a 25t payload or less, LH2 doesn't seem to provide a favorable energy trade, which indicates that the combination of thrust "to get the vehicle moving smartly downrange", as GW would say (what he means is that sluggish acceleration is not acceptable for a SSTO), and cube-square isn't working in our favor for smaller rockets, because the RP1 fueled rocket can be so much smaller and lighter, relatively speaking, that the engine and/or propellant tank mass ratios don't work in favor of LH2.
As with most other things in engineering, everything from gas turbine engine efficiency to economical fission reactors, it appears that scaling laws apply to SSTOs as well.
Calliban,
What are the practical limitations on reactor size here on Earth?
We already have 1GWe fission reactors.
How large would a 10GWe fusion reactor need to be?
US installed generating capacity is 1.3TWe. If we had 10GWe fusion reactors, that means each state would need 2 to 5 reactors of this scale to provide for their electric power requirements.
How large can we go before the vacuum pressure vessel becomes problematic to fabricate?
ITER's pressure vessel is 5,200t and 1,400m^3 in volume. It's a 500MW device.
I don't know if there are other scaling laws applicable, but this seems to suggest that 28,000m^3 is sufficient for a 10GW device.
How much would the pressure vessel need to weigh for a 10GW device, and could a ship yard fabricate it?
We finally arrive at an energy economics result favorable to LH2:
Delta IV Heavy Energy Economics Improve Upon Delta IV Medium
447,150,942N-s * 3 (Common Booster Cores) + 124,353,610N-s (DCSS Upper Stage) = 1,465,806,436N-s Total Impulse (both stages)
1,465,806,436N-s / 28,790kg of payload = 50,914N-s/kg of payload to LEO
Falcon 9 Block V Heavy Energy Economics
1,178,870,316N-s * 3 (Booster Cores) + 363,937,025N-s (Upper Stage) = 3,900,547,973N-s Total Impulse (both stages)
3,900,547,973N-s / 63,800kg = 61,137N-s/kg of payload to LEO
50,914N-s/kg / 61,137N-s/kg = 0.83
1. I take this to mean that the vehicle is very sensitive to thrust performance. Tahanson43206 set the payload target to orbit at 100,000kg. Therefore, we want to know the energy economics after we scale-up the LH2 powered SSTO to lift 100t. There is at least some potential here which indicates favorable energy economics associated with using Hydrogen fuel. At the 25t payload level or less, RP1 fueled solutions or LH2 paired with solid rocket motors appear to result in much smaller / lighter / equally performant vehicles in the realm of energy economics. This partially explains why vehicles like Ariane V, Atlas V, and Delta IV Heavy have all failed to compete with Falcon 9 Block V. For small launchers, no economy of scale is possible. You either have highly favorable energy economics or the cost of your engines and fuels override whatever minor performance advantages exist.
2. This is an actual desirable result showing a clear advantage in energy consumption required to attain orbit. Whereas the Delta IV Medium is little better than a Falcon 9 Block V, Delta IV Heavy consumes measurably LESS energy than Falcon 9 Block V Heavy. Therefore, it must be the case that using LH2 as the fuel of choice doesn't produce the desirable energy economics until the launch vehicle size is scaled-up quite substantially.
3. To make LH2 more competitive, we need better performing engines, such as RDEs, made from somewhat exotic but now much more affordable materials like RCC, in order to minimize engine mass or improve engine TWR, however you prefer to think about it. RDE alone would result in 150:1 TWR, and using RCC instead of stainless or Nickel-Copper alloys could increase that to 600:1, making LH2 engines suitable for SSTOs.
4. Any reusable SSTO must use CFRP propellant tanks. No other material is suitable because TPS mass will be added for reentry protection. However, I was considering the propellant mass fraction of the stainless steel balloon tanks used by the Centaur Upper Stage. Recent advances in Mangalloy welding make me think that Mangalloy, which has double the yield strength of 304L stainless, could be a lower cost and stronger alternative to fabricate much larger SSTO propellant tanks. 5.1m diameter 304L tanks are clearly doable, but ideally we want 10m diameter tanks. The Japanese and Koreans have done extensive testing with this material for storage of LNG, LN2, and LH2. Since they have test data to back up their assertions, I'm going to take them at their word. Some kind of coating, perhaps Silicon-based, would be required to protect the alloy from LOX, perhaps LH2 as well, but the end result could be relatively inexpensive, strong enough, and light enough. I was thinking about using steel cable with weldments inside the tank that keep the structure in tension and pull double duty as slosh baffles. I've never seen this done for this application, but we use it in bridges and other applications.
5. Someone needs to run an analysis to determine what flight trajectories are optimal for LH2 SSTOs, given their lower TWR. Is there a payload performance benefit to adding some forward / perpendicular velocity during part of the flight within the lower atmosphere, so long as the aerodynamic heating and drag loss is not too severe? If we're going to use steel balloon tanks, this might be more tolerable. All LH2 tanks have some external thermal insulation applied so that heat transfer rates remain tolerable. What kinds of lightweight thermal insulation do we have today? Perhaps we have something based upon spray-on aerogels that minimize weight and do a better job than polyurethane foam.
RobertDyck,
If Canada had more local manufacturing jobs, everything from grill scrubbers to cell phones and motor vehicles, in what ways would that be a bad thing for Canadians?
What is it that you imagine 50% of the people who happen to be on the lower end of the IQ spectrum are supposed to do for gainful employment and to raise families?
What's your take on this? Screw them because "they're beneath me"? What if everyone else applied that same logic to you? I can't speak for you, but I know I don't want to live in that kind of world.
How else do you propose to increase real generational prosperity through eventual accumulation of wealth without yourself and your own neighbors benefiting from owning and using the means of production?
If you're not happy with the current state of affairs regarding trading with the US vs other countries, then why argue so vehemently to maintain the existing system, which you don't think best serves the interests of Canada?
Help me understand what dots you've connected in your mind to come to the conclusion that maintaining the existing system is preferable to seeking out better deals. For example, if Canada receives what they judge is fair market price for their oil and timber, they at least have the chance to boost GDP. I don't know if it will or won't boost Canadian GDP, but we'll never know if we keep doing what we've been doing. From what you've told me thus far, you think the US is getting the better of the trade deal, which is not fair to Canadians. If that is true, then why so much resistance to entertaining alternatives? If it's not true, then at least you'll know that the US was offering the best deal Canada is going to get.
LOX/LH2 Propellant for Equal Thermal Output as 1m^3 of Densified RP1 and 1.608m^3 of Densified LOX
NBP LOX = 1,141kg/m^3 (Normal)
MP + 10K LOX = 1,262kg/m^3 (Densified)
37,281MJ/m^3 of RP1 / 10,082MJ/m^3 of LH2 = 3.697778m^3 of LH2 per 1m^3 of RP1
3.697778 * 71kg/m^3 = 262.542238kg of LH2
262.542238kg of LH2 * 6.03 = 1,583.12969514kg of LOX
1,583.12969514kg (LOX) + 262.542238kg (LH2) = 1,845.67193314kg of LOX/LH2 propellant
2,895.78kg (LOX/RP1) / 1,845.67193314kg = 1.568957
LOX/RP1 is 56.8957% heavier than LOX/LH2 for equal thermal output
LOX/LH2 volume increases to:
3.697778m^3 (LH2) + 1.387493m^3 (LOX) = 5.085271m^3 total LOX/LH2 propellant volume
3.697778m^3 (LH2) + 1.254461m^3 (Densified LOX) = 4.952239m^3 total Densified LOX/LH2 propellant volume
4.952239m^3 (Densified LOX + NBP LH2) / 1.608m^3 (Densified LOX + Densified RP1) = 3.079751
Best case scenario, Densified LOX + NBP LH2 occupies 3X greater volume than Densified LOX + Densified RP1 for equal thermal energy output.
Will the propellant tank volume trade for LH2 be quite that bad, due to the much higher Isp of LOX/LH2?
No. A lighter / faster combustion product means less mass flow at a higher velocity partially equalizes the dramatically lower bulk propellant density of LOX/LH2. This counts for something, but not enough to favor LH2.
Will a LOX/LH2 powered vehicle dry mass ever be as light as a LOX/RP1 powered vehicle for the same payload to orbit?
No. The propellant itself will be lighter for equal kinetic energy output and the cube-square law will also partially offset the increased propellant tank mass to store LH2, but the stage dry mass must be higher when using LH2. There are no two ways about this.
This stage dry mass increase is accurately reflected in the stage dry mass and payload to orbit of Delta IV Medium (all LH2 powered) and Falcon 9 (all RP1 powered). Both vehicles have very similar stage dry mass, although the Delta IV Medium stage dry mass is higher for both stages, after subtracting the engine mass. LH2 engines are also heavier than RP1 engines for the thrust output provided, but that's merely another aspect of the compounding problem of low thrust and high stage dry mass. Delta IV Medium delivers 8,510kg to orbit. Falcon 9 delivers 22,800kg to orbit. The fact that the Falcon 9 (549.5t) is about 2X as heavy (with its full propellant load) as the Delta IV Medium (224.6t) has no significant effect on stage dry mass.
549.5t (Falcon 9 wet mass) / 224.6t (Delta IV Medium wet mass) = 2.44657
22,800kg (Falcon 9 payload) / 8,510kg (Delta IV Medium payload) = 2.67920
224.6t (Delta IV Medium wet mass) / 8.51t (Delta IV Medium payload mass) = 26.39248
549.5t (Falcon 9 wet mass) / 22.8t (Falcon 9 payload mass) = 24.10088
The ratio of Falcon 9 wet mass to payload mass is LOWER than it is for Delta IV Medium.
How can that be the case?
The higher stage dry mass of the LH2 powered vehicle (the combination of higher propellant tank mass and much lower engine TWR) offsets more than 100% of its considerable Isp advantage over the RP1 powered vehicle. This problem would be worse for a SSTO.
The major "clue" that something doesn't add up is the simple fact that the Total Impulse delivered by both stages of the Delta IV Medium, per kilogram of payload delivered to orbit, is only very modestly lower than it is for both stages of Falcon 9. The only way for that to be true is if the relative propulsive efficiency (total number of Newton-seconds of thrust delivered per kilogram of payload) associated with using LH2 in a real rocket powered vehicle is very similar to RP1. If that number for LH2 was dramatically lower than it was for RP1, then it's indicative of much greater relative propulsive efficiency.
Delta IV Medium: 67,157N-s/kg of payload
Falcon 9 Block V: 67,667N-s/kg of payload
510N-s of Total Impulse reduction per kg of payload. That's the extent of what LH2's fantastic "efficiency" provides to a real world Delta IV Medium rocket, which is an almost meaningless figure, because it's equivalent to extending the firing duration of the booster engine(s) in either vehicle for 1.5 seconds or less for either vehicle. I was expecting a N-s/kg reduction commensurate with the Isp increase of LH2 over RP1 for the engines in question, meaning N-s/kg should be at least 29% lower for LH2. RS-68A produces a higher Isp at sea level than the Merlin-1D Vacuum nozzle engine variant produces in a hard vacuum. In real life, RP1's thrust efficiency in a Falcon 9 Block V is less than 1% lower than LH2 in a Delta IV Medium, by computing total impulse delivered by both stages and then dividing by the total kilograms of payload to orbit. That is spectacularly bad, but only reinforces how important engine thrust and stage dry mass truly are to overall vehicle performance.
If we wanted to make the payload performance of Delta IV Medium and Falcon 9 "equal", what does that imply?
22,800kg / 8,510kg = 2.6792
Stage dry mass is going to increase by about 2.6792X to make a LH2 gas generator cycle engine vehicle "equal" to a RP1 gas generator cycle engine vehicle. The payload to LEO of Delta IV Heavy, which is about 3X heavier than Delta IV Medium, is only 5,990kg higher than Falcon 9.
Delta IV Medium
26,850kg (1X Common Booster Core) + 3,480kg (5.1m DCSS Upper Stage) = 30,330kg (total dry mass)
30,300kg dry mass / 8,510kg payload mass = 3.56kg dry mass per 1kg payload mass
Delta IV Heavy
80,550kg (3X 5.1m Common Booster Cores) + 3,480kg (5.1m DCSS Upper Stage) = 84,030kg (total dry mass)
84,030kg dry mass / 28,790kg payload mass = 2.92kg dry mass per 1kg payload mass
Falcon 9 Block V
23,600kg (expendable booster core) + 4,000kg (upper stage) = 27,600kg (total dry mass)
27,600kg dry mass / 22,800kg payload mass = 1.21kg dry mass per 1kg payload mass
Falcon 9 Block V Heavy
70,800kg (3X expendable booster cores) + 4,000kg (upper stage) = 74,800kg (total dry mass)
74,800kg dry mass / 63,800kg payload mass = 1.17kg dry mass per 1kg payload mass
How do we make LH2 stage dry mass "more equal" to RP1 stage dry mass?
That's the real question we need to answer to make LH2 a viable candidate fuel for SSTOs.
For a practical purely rocket powered SSTO, what does that mean?
If you insist on using LH2, then you get a lot less payload to orbit (that is not the vehicle itself) for the same stage dry mass. I can't speak for anyone else, but that looks like a bad trade to me. All that "potential" thrust efficiency (N-s/kg of payload) amounts to almost nothing due to the poor stage dry mass efficiency, exacerbated by poor LH2 engine TWR. RDEs and RCC vs metal alloys could potentially solve the TWR issue for LH2 engines, but they cannot reduce the propellant tank mass, which is the largest portion of total stage dry mass.
Temperature Terminology
RT = Room Temperature
MP = Melting Point
NBP = Normal Boiling Point
LOX Density
LOX Density (NBP): 1,141kg/m^3
LOX Density (MP + 19K): 1,262kg/m^3
RP1 Gravimetric and Volumetric Energy Density
Gravimetric Energy Density: 43MJ/kg
Bulk Density: 810kg/m^3 (RT); 867kg/m^3 (MP + 10K)
Volumetric Energy Density: 34,830MJ/m^3 (RT); 37,281MJ/m^3 (MP + 10K)
LH2 Gravimetric and Volumetric Energy Density
Gravimetric Energy Density: 142MJ/kg
Bulk Density: 71kg/m^3 (NBP)
Volumetric Energy Density: 10,082MJ/m^3
Note:
Propellant densification involves chilling the oxidizer and fuel to 10K above its melting point (MP + 10K). This increases the mass of propellant that can be loaded into propellant tanks of a given volume, but most succinctly, Total Impulse per unit volume of propellant tank.
Real World RP1 Engine Performance
The SpaceX Merlin-1D engine uses densified LOX and densified RP1.
Merlin-1D's O/F Ratio is 2.34:1.
2.34kg of LOX oxidizer are combusted per 1kg of RP1 fuel.
867kg of RP1 * 2.34 = 2,028.78kg of LOX
2,028.78kg / 1,262kg/m^3 = 1.608m^3 of LOX
37,281MJ/m^3 / (1m^3 of RP1 + 1.608m^3 of LOX) = 14,295MJ/m^3
Real World LH2 Engine Performance
The Aerojet-Rocketdyne RS-25D was designed to use non-densified LOX and LH2. Practically speaking, densification of LH2 is not possible, as the fuel is already fairly close to absolute zero. Attempts at densification through further chilling of LH2 usually result in "slush" Hydrogen, which cannot be fed into the turbopumps. The RS-25 could use densified LOX, but to my knowledge there have been no attempts to do so.
RS-25D's O/F Ratio is 6.03:1.
6.03kg of LOX oxidizer are combusted per 1kg of LH2 fuel.
71kg of LH2 * 6.03 = 428.13kg of LOX
428.13kg / 1,141kg/m^3 = 0.375m^3 of LOX
10,082MJ/m^3 / (1m^3 of LH2 + 0.375m^3 of LOX) = 7,332MJ/m^3
RP1 vs LH2 Volumetric and Gravimetric Energy Density Comparison
14,295MJ/m^3 (LOX/RP1) / 7,332MJ/m^3 (LOX/LH2) = 1.95:1
2,895.78kg (LOX/RP1) / 499.13kg (LOX/LH2) = 5.8:1
That looks like an overwhelming mass ratio advantage in favor of LH2. Perhaps it would be if the mass in question wasn't being converted into thrust at an exceptionally fast rate. However, that's precisely what we're doing with a rocket. What is notable is that the total propellant volume required to produce equivalent thermal energy output is 1.95X larger for LH2, in comparison to RP1. By the end of our rocket engine firing time, the propellant mass we started with has been converted into hot expanding gas (reaction mass) used to accelerate our rocket-powered vehicle.
RP1 provides a lot more reaction mass per unit volume, even though the kinetics are nowhere near as favorable as they are with LH2. A lighter exhaust product accelerated to the same or modestly higher velocity produces more thrust per unit propellant mass, simple as that. What we're left with is the mass of the rocket stage, plus the mass of the useful payload. Ideally, we want to minimize the stage mass so that we can maximize the useful payload mass. This concept applies to SSTO and TSTO, but is hyper-important for a SSTO.
If a LOX/LH2 vehicle's propellant volume must be 1.95X larger than a LOX/RP1 vehicle's propellant volume for equivalent thermal energy output, and the propellant tanks represent most of the rocket powered vehicle's dry mass and volume, then any LOX/LH2 vehicle capable of carrying the same payload into orbit must have a much higher propellant tank mass. It won't be as high as 1.95:1 because of the cube-square law helping to reduce the propellant tank mass growth as the tank diameter increases. However, it is simply impossible for the LOX/LH2 powered vehicle's propellant tanks to be lighter than a LOX/RP1 powered vehicle for the same payload to orbit.
On top of that significant disadvantage, the best LH2 powered engines have a thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR) of 75:1. The best RP1 powered engines have a thrust-to-weight ratio in excess of 150:1.
Merlin-1D (Sea Level Nozzle) TWR: 184.5:1 (sl); 214.6:1 (vac)
RS-25D TWR: 59.7:1 (sl); 73.1:1 (vac)
If Merlin was a staged combustion engine like the RS-25, it's sea level TWR would be over 200:1.
For any purely rocket powered SSTO, a vehicle gross liftoff mass TWR of about 1.5:1 or higher is mandatory. If the fully fueled vehicle and payload weighs 500,000kg, then liftoff thrust must be 750,000kg-f. That puts LH2 fueled engines at a severe disadvantage.
You can invoke CFRP propellant tanks because there are vehicles that are powered by RP1 and LH2 that use CFRP propellant tanks. This is now flight proven technology. RocketLabs Electron rocket uses LOX/RP1 and CFRP propellant tanks for both stages. Boeing's LOX/LH2 RL10 powered upper stage for SLS uses CFRP for the cryogenic upper stage propellant tanks. IIRC, RocketLabs uses a fabric wrapped around a mold whereas Boeing uses a tape winding machine to lay down Carbon Fiber roving / tow. Tank mass will be reduced by 40% using Hexcel's IM7 Carbon Fiber, in comparison to the best Al-2195 Aluminum-Lithium alloy, which is the lightest / strongest metal alloy proven to withstand LOX, RP1, LCH4, and LH2. Toray T1200 Carbon Fiber is approximately 50% stronger than IM7 fiber. Al-2195, IM7, and T1200 are all certified aerospace materials. This is important because all rockets are built using certified aerospace materials.
For both IM7 and T1200 fibers, the fiber-to-resin split is 60/40 by volume and therefore mass. If you have 1kg of CFRP, then 60% or 0.6kg will be Carbon Fiber and 40% or 0.4kg will be the resin matrix that hardens into plastic. The resin matrix is much weaker than the Carbon Fiber, so the actual bulk structure is not as strong as the fiber itself. For that reason, you want as much fiber-to-resin as you can get. In practical applications, 60/40 is the highest realistic value achievable, and is routinely specified for aerospace bulk composite structures. Multiple different kinds of fabrication processes can successfully and repeatably deliver 60/40. There are resin additives that can increase strength and toughness. Despite that fact, all such CFRP composite structures possess both tensile strengths and strength-to-weight ratios far in excess of the strongest metal alloys in existence. They are both stronger than any metal alloy in an absolute sense, as well as stronger than metal when strength-to-weight also matters.
Since propellant tanks represent the bulk of the stage dry mass for any orbital launch vehicle, using CFRP greatly enhances strength while minimizing stage dry mass. The net effect is to produce a propellant tank with 40% lower mass than Al-2195 Aluminum-Lithium alloy when using IM7 fiber. Using T1200 fiber would reduce that by at least another 10%. If an Al-2195 propellant tank mass was 1,000kg, then an IM7 fiber tank would be 600kg and a T1200 fiber tank would be 500kg.
Regardless of the propellant tank material used, internal pressurization is the single greatest tank mass driver, not the mass of the propellant, vehicle acceleration loads (if vehicle acceleration is capped at 3g), nor aero loads (Max-Q). All loads except internal pressurization are far lower. Since the Electron rocket has successfully delivered 64 payloads to orbit, we can say with confidence that CFRP is a suitable material for expendable SSTO and TSTO rockets. Most, and perhaps all, rocket payload fairings are made from CFRP as well. Liftoff GLOW is almost irrelevant to propellant tank mass in the face of significant internal pressurization loads. If you can merely pressurize the tanks for a launch without bursting them, then the tanks are going to be strong enough to survive all flight-related loads. Whether you fill the tanks with LOX (heaviest propellant) or LH2 (lightest propellant), all matters related to tank strength boil down to internal pressurization levels. Any tank that can survive LH2 pressurization levels can survive the propellant mass increase of LOX by default. LOX is 40% heavier than RP1.
Whenever we compare apples-to-apples, what we're going to find is that the stage dry mass of a RP1 powered vehicle is LOWER than the stage dry mass of a LH2 powered vehicle, to deliver the same payload to orbit. Until we create 200:1 TWR LH2 fueled engines and reduce the internal pressurization required to force-feed LH2 into the turbopump inlets, there will never be a LH2 powered SSTO or TSTO that delivers more payload to orbit for the same stage dry mass.
Merlin-1D is a gas generator cycle engine, consumes "densified" LOX and RP1, providing 14,295MJ/m^3 of thermal energy to work with.
RS-25D is a staged combustion cycle engine, consumes "normal" LOX and LH2, providing 7,332MJ/m^3 of thermal energy to work with. LOX densification would modestly improve the number of Mega-Joules of energy per unit volume, still nowhere near enough to overcome RP1's advantage.
If you're going to fixate on specific vehicle characteristics for SSTO, then I suggest the following, in this order:
1. Total stage dry mass
2. Propellant tank mass
3. Engine thrust-to-weight ratio
Things to never fixate on
1. Propellant mass (this doesn't tell you how much energy you have per unit of propellant tank mass)
2. Isp (this also cannot tell you anything about stage dry mass; ion engines have fantastic Isp, but you're never leaving the ground)
Pragmatic Vehicle Optimization
If you're going to design a rocket powered expendable SSTO, then accept that useful payload to orbit will never be as high as an equally well-designed TSTO. Discarding 2/3 to 3/4 of the total vehicle dry mass, after accelerating to Mach 5-7 and exiting the sensible atmosphere, puts more payload into orbit, because less mass has to be accelerated to orbital velocity. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing this "fact of life", is that a much higher fraction of the total mass going to orbit is the rocket itself. That's why stage dry mass matters so much, and why LH2 will never compete with RP1 when this is the game we're playing.
RobertDyck,
You really think the US doesn't engage in significant trade today?
The US does engage in trade, and always has, but it's not a major part of our economy, except for the part that drains resources and jobs to actually buy the products. If trade was such a great deal, then there would be far fewer people living in relative poverty in America, not more.
Do you think products in Walmart or various dollar stores are made in the US?
I haven't been in a Wal-Mart for many years. I honestly have no clue where their products are made these days.
Edit:
Back when we still shopped at Wal-Mart, my wife bought dishes, glasses, and other household items (towels, blankets, linen), specifically because they were "Made in USA".
As an anecdote: when I moved out of my parents house into my first apartment in 1984, a hand-held can opener cost $25 in Canadian dollars in 1984 dollars. Calculating Canadian inflation from that year to today, then converting to US dollars, that's $50.
Your parents paid $25 in 1984 for a device which I can buy for $10 in 2025:
EZ DUZ IT - USA Made Can Opener - $9.95
It's available on Amazon with a $4 markup. There are other American-made can openers which are also available for less than $25.
Or an iPhone 16 for $20,000?
I feel like you were a little over-zealous in typing out all those zeroes. You're "off" by a factor of 10.
Purism's US-assembled Smart Phone with US-made Electronics and US-sourced Materials:
Purism Liberty Phone
Purism's 128GB Liberty Phone: Starts at $1,999
Apple's 128GB iPhone 16 Pro: Starts at $999
Edit #2:
Most of the Apple mobile chips are now made in the US before being shipped to China for final assembly into iPhones and other Apple products, then shipped back to the US. TSMC moved their chip fab to Arizona citing security concerns about having all of their factories in Taiwan.
Edit #3:
Amprius now has 500Wh/kg Lithium-ion batteries, which are made in Brighton, Colorado. This is far in excess of what the present iPhones have in them, but will obviously help power the next generation of mobile devices. Purism could source their batteries from Amprius, for example, because their batteries are user-replaceable by design.
These numbers aren't out of thin air.
Yes they are and I just proved it. Actually, the real world market economy just proved it. I didn't have to prove anything. You should've done some basic research before making your outrageous claims, but you didn't because basic research wouldn't support your claims.
Void,
There is no comparable "technological adolescence" for internal combustion engines. Lenoir's two-stroke piston engine was invented in 1860. Otto's four-stroke piston engine was invented in 1876. We went from first powered flight in 1903 to walking on the moon in 1969, a mere 66 years later. Photovoltaics were first created in 1839. The first known windmills were used in Persia around 500 AD. Halladay patented the first commercial windmill for use on farms in 1854- a device that required no human interaction to regulate output and adjust to changing wind direction and speeds. The first wind turbine used to generate electricity was created in Scotland by James Blyth in 1887. Alessandro Volta created his "voltaic pile", an electro-chemical batteries, in 1800. We quit using windmills to power human civilization because there is no actual way to "fake" energy density- a physical impossibility.
We've obviously made many refinements to those technologies since they were invented, but their power / energy density is never going to approach the power / energy density of hydrocarbon fuels used in combustion engines, and they have no hope of ever remotely approaching the energy density of the Uranium used in nuclear reactors.
After the major technological advantage was provided in commercialized form, meaning applicable to providing power or a stronger steel alloy or whatnot, only small incremental improvements materialized over a long period of time. Only radical materials science advancements have provided fundamentally new materials with markedly different material properties. However, as of yet no transformational materials science advances have taken place for photoelectric cells or electro-chemical cells- all of them remain multiple orders of magnitude less energy dense than chemical reactions, which means any human civilization scale power generation and storage system based upon them will be incredibly energy and materials intensive and unaffordably expensive as a result. An accountant would stop what they're doing and reconsider their approach. A religious zealot would blindly continue "blowing harder", despite their apparent lack of results.
The "Iron Law of Power Density," as coined by Robert Bryce, states that the lower the power density of an energy source, the greater its resource intensity and land use requirements.
No miraculous new photovoltaic, wind turbine, or electro-chemical battery technology is going to leap into existence, if only we wait a bit longer and spend a bit more money, that radically improves upon the power density of existing devices. Their power density is a function of distance from the Sun, which is a fixed value. The same applies to atmospheric pressure gradients dictating wind speeds and thus the power density of a wind turbine farm. That is a fact which will never radically change because what's achievable, even with major advances, is governed by our distance from the Sun.
If photovoltaics were near-100% efficient, then they're only somewhat less infeasible from an energy economics standpoint. Here's the rub, though. Solar thermal is already 90%+ efficient at concentrating heat energy from photons from the Sun. If that's not seriously being pursued by people who want "wind and solar, but no new nuclear", then we have to ask ourselves, "Why not?" I've never seen anything approaching a good answer. Any answer that points to the math of the problem applies to an even greater degree to photovoltaics.
What was / is so "unique" about solar thermal energy, or traditional centuries-old windmills for that matter?
The very first thing you do with the solar (thermal kinetic energy) or wind (atmospheric pressure differential kinetic energy) is either to concentrate and store it or to use it directly at or very near to the point of generation. That makes the power from these ambient energy sources on-demand usable without having to fundamentally transform every other aspect of an energy grid and how energy is used. Whether or not you suffer an energy conversion penalty for converting the energy to electricity is optional. We certainly can do that, and have done it at commercial solar thermal electric power plants, but if the primary energy requirement is high temperature heat energy, then we don't need to do it.
RobertDyck,
Isn't President Trump doing Canada a favor by encouraging Canada to seek more profitable trade deals with other nations?
Free trade is good for everyone, mostly for the US.
Yes, free trade has been so "good" for Americans that since offshoring of American manufacturing jobs began during the 1970s, real wages haven't increased, relative to inflation, except ever so briefly during President Trump's first term in office. We're all too stupid to notice that we're somehow getting "poorer" despite all those "cheap" goods pouring in from overseas. In other news, water is no longer "wet". Sorry, but all the pathetic attempts at "jedi mind tricks" no longer work on people who have to choose between rent, food, gas money to drive to work, and health care. Free trade has been great for rich people- just one more way to exploit desperate people elsewhere in ways they're not allowed to here in America due to labor laws. For everyone else, it's become yet another "utopia". I can buy lots of things I don't need with money I don't have, but I can't buy an appliance that lasts longer than 5 years.
When you pay your neighbor to make something you truly need (need vs want, endless choice vs meaningful choice), the benefit is that he gets to use the money to support his family, you get your coffee machine, and because his company actually makes coffee machines, any coffee machine manufacturing innovations are likely something that our fellow countrymen get to benefit from, rather than someone living in a foreign land. I don't need or want an internet connected coffee machine with 50 different settings and more lights than a Christmas tree. I could care less if it sings to me in the morning. I'm buying it because I want a hot cup of coffee in the morning. If it can do that, reliably, for the next 20 years or so, then it was something worth spending my money on. It wouldn't matter if it costs $100 vs $50 when it lasts 4X longer because it's not loaded with useless features nor made from the cheapest materials imaginable.
The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930 was a major contributor to the Great Depression.
While specific overall percentages for "trade as a percentage of the economy" in 1929 are not readily available, it is clear that international trade was a relatively small part of the overall economic activity in the U.S. during that year, which saw a decline in total trade to GDP of just 6.4% on average from 1929-1970, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
While global trade declined significantly during the Great Depression, the initial year of 1929, and the period leading up to it, saw trade as a less dominant force in the U.S. economy.
Industrial production declined by 50 percent, international trade plunged 30 percent, and investment fell 98 percent.
The US didn't engage in enough trade immediately before and during the Great Depression for trade to make much difference to the overall US economy. For starters, most Americans couldn't afford imported goods. We didn't export much, either. Productive output nonetheless decreased by half and investments fell to near-zero.
This popular line of argumentation about Smoot-Hawley is frequently used to explain the worsening of the Great Depression, yet there's clear evidence that trade was never a sufficiently large part of the American economy to explain away a 10 year long event. To this day, trade continues to be a minor part of the overall US economy. The real issue is that when it comes to making things that truly matter, all the raw materials inputs required to create the machines, we largely stopped doing that.
We're not allowed to open new mines, smelters, and other heavy industry inputs required to make things in quantity. The Democrats are largely to blame for that. We tried to open a Lithium mine and they did everything in their power to prevent that. The same applies to coal, oil, natural gas, and lumber. I'm willing to meet Democrats half-way on the lumber issue by growing our own bamboo in the Southern US because I don't want all of our tress cut down, either. You won't find anyone who thinks cutting down all the trees is a good idea, except maybe the green energy advocates who want to clear-cut forests for their wind and solar projects.
Green energy tech is finally dead because they fixated on so much stuff that simply did not matter and imported all of it from overseas. They could've built solar thermal power plants that operated 24/7/365, and the fact that they used more steel and concrete would've been shrugged off as acceptable because they last for 75 years like any other thermal plant and require the type of maintenance that ordinary people can do. More electricity without having to burn something is more better, but only when you get it through sustainable means and it's boringly reliable. That's not what they did, and now there's no more money to finish the over-arching idea, because they're focused on meaningless details while ignoring the important ones.
All that potential, all the money, all that intellectual effort... squandered. That's the real travesty.
RobertDyck,
I'm sorry you don't understand anything outside the lower 48 states of the US.
If you think incessantly talking down to other people is going to convince others of your arguments, then you lack the ability to make intellectual arguments. Sometimes people who disagree with you are not your adversaries and for them to take you seriously, you need to demonstrate some basic level of respect for opinions you do not share.
You made no arguments about why Canada should not be self-sufficient. You showed me your fears / feelings / beliefs, tied to an incoherent comparison between Russia and America. I can't argue with any of your feelings because it's typically not very rational. You seem to think being self-sufficient equates to poverty, weakness, and isolation. Most Americans do not. You used a nation which has been a communist dictatorship for the past 100 years as your shining example of what America will become, were we to revert back to the same governance and business practices which made America prosperous following WWII. If that's the entirety of your argument, then you effectively equate American governance and economics during its most prosperous era with Russian governance and economics of the same era, where they became worse off than they were under their Czar.
If Canada had domestic manufacturing to supply its own people with the goods and services they need, "needs" being in a separate category than "wants", they would be measurably worse-off than if someone else provided most of them because...
Well, what's the reasoning here?
40 million people cannot generate economies of scale?
California's GDP is around $4T, despite a near-identical population to that of Canada. Only 16% of its economy is trade-related. There must be something more to achieving economies of scale than shipping most of the manufacturing jobs overseas. Having an infinite number of equally meaningless purchasing options at the store doesn't equate to economic prosperity.
Canada's GDP is $2T and 67% of its economy is trade-related.
How is it possible for California to have double the GDP of Canada, an almost identical population to that of Canada, much worse education, and only 1/4 the trade of the Canadian economy?
Who is trade overall beneficial to?
You guys have 4X more trade than an equally-sized population, but half the total annual wealth generation. I'm certain that the import / export business is beneficial to someone, but clearly not to the average Canadian's bottom line.
The US has demanded ever increasing economic integration with Canada, and it has hurt many Canadian industries.
Something America could not do if Canada maintained its own industries to serve its own people, first and foremost. Maybe you still don't get it yet, but I don't want America to dictate economics.
But overall it has been beneficial to Canada's economy, because those business that survive can sell into the US.
Your first sentence indicates that trade with the US has been harmful to "many Canadian industries", and in the very next sentence you assert that it's overall beneficial to the Canadian economy.
Trade has had greater benefits than harm.
For whom and under what circumstances? Pick one line of logically consistent reasoning and then stick with it. Trade benefits specific people under specific circumstances.
But now Trump wants to take away all the benefits.
How is America imposing tariffs on Canada "taking away all the benefits"?
Was Canada "taking away all the benefits" by imposing tariffs on America?
Trade is always beneficial.
These sorts of all / every / never statements are generally BS. They're more articles of faith or self-interest than universal truths.
Reducing your market from the world to just the US will drastically damage the US economy. You will become poor.
Most people in the US are already poor, specifically because American businesses were incentivized to offshore manufacturing. They were more interested in achieving those "economies of scale" than they were about whether or not their own workers had jobs to pay for the products they were making.
You claimed Canada should become "self sufficient", which means Canada would cut itself off from the rest of the world. Canada won't do that.
Why not? Comparing America with Russia is not a valid "why not". Both America and Russia traded with their allies during the Cold War. One nation invented nuclear weapons and power, transistors, microchips, personal computers, GPS, smart phones, lasers, while the other worked a lot of people to death and visited every imaginable privation on them for ideological reasons and/or to "control" their lives. In America, you can come and go at any time. In Russia you get imprisoned or shot for trying to leave your own village.
Canada is not a vassal state of the US, Canada has been a trading partner, an equal and peer.
Canada is clearly not equal to the US if somehow one American can "take away all the benefits". That said, I don't want Canada to be a vassal state of the US, either.
If Canada wants to join the Union of States, that's fine with me. If Canada were to join the US, they would be treated like any other state in the union. The character and nature of Canada would not fundamentally change, despite all the nonsense to the contrary. Texas was still Texas before and after it became part of the United States.
If Canada wants to continue to be Canada, that's equally fine with me. The real issue is Canada's declining population.
But Canada will not pay tribute to the US.
That's good to hear. I never suggested or thought that Canada should "pay tribute". I don't want us to resent each other, but it seems like you have a bone to pick with America.
Canada is working to increase trade with other countries.
Also good to hear.
The largest aluminum smelter is Alcoa, which has several facilities that together produce 43% of all aluminum in Quebec, and that company is 100% American owned. The second largest producer makes 27%, and Alcoa owns 75% of them. Together Alcoa controls 70% of aluminum production in Quebec. Their response to Trump's tariffs is to sell their product overseas, not to the US. Let me emphasize this point: an American company will not sell their product to the US, because of Trump's tariffs.
You're telling me that Alcoa values corporate profits over patriotism. Lots of corporate managers value money over their own people. If that's the type of thing you want more of, then continue supporting it and see where you end up.
Canada has sold the vast majority of its oil to the US, at well below world market price. The US has made great profit from Canada, at Canadian expense.
If you or your fellow Canadians feel they're getting a bad deal from America, then I think Canada should quit doing that. Sell your oil to the communists in China if they're offering a better price.
Converting American refineries to process light oil from fracking will cost billions. That cost will be passed on to the consumer, again increasing the price of oil at the pump. And even if the US does that, total amount of oil the US produces is still not quite enough to fulfill US market demand.
I think we'll manage.
The US tried to halt all Canadian softwood lumber when George W. Bush was president. They discovered the US cannot produce enough lumber to satisfy the US market. The US just doesn't have enough forests left.
We should start growing bamboo instead of cutting down all the remaining trees.
Trump is cutting the US off. But by offending military allies, and trade partners. The US will soon be isolated, weak, and poor.
America's allies can choose to be offended or choose to recognize that if all the trade with America results in American economic decline, it's no longer beneficial to Americans.
As far as isolation is concerned, America is no more or less isolated than Canada is. I hear lots of talk about how weak America is, all of it coming from radical leftists, and their talk is only tacit personal admission that they're weak. Poverty can be rectified by not shipping all your manufacturing jobs overseas. Everyone in America is not going to an inventor, scientists, lawyer, or medical doctor. Society is made up of all type of people, and many of them aren't going to become independently wealthy. Meanwhile, it'd sure be great if they had jobs that paid living wages to support a family with.
Putin has convinced Trump to do this, because Putin wants Russia to be the sole superpower in the world.
You and your fellow leftists have convinced yourselves that President Trump is somehow beholden to Putin or deeply cares about what Putin wants. He doesn't. He's willing to negotiate if he thinks it's in the best interest of the American people, or to walk away if the thinks it's not.
You think Russia is the great saviour to protect the US from wokeism?
As you noted, Russia can barely feed its own people. If they cannot save themselves from their own self-destructive tendencies in the leaders they elevate to positions of power, then what makes you think anyone here in America believes that Russia can "save Americans" from anything at all? Do you have any slight clue how bizarre this sounds to any real American?
Leftists living in America don't even perceive themselves as Americans, which is why they routinely burn the flag, torch their own neighborhoods, and generally act like the cretins they've always been. So that you're not forever trapped in your own three pound universe, maybe ask people what they truly think every so often before ascribing beliefs to them that they've never had. Get your information about public sentiment from average people, rather than radicals with agendas.
I'm not defending wokeism, I'm saying Russia is not your saviour.
I'm glad we both agree on this point. Russians won't save Americans from anyone or anything because they have zero ability to save themselves from their own irrationality.
So trade and tariffs. Negotiating with Trump is irrelevant because it doesn't matter what agreement you come to, Trump will abrogate the deal and make some new demand the very next day.
Canada went right back to doing what they were doing prior to his first administration, after President Biden was elected. That's why your agreements were renegotiated from the moment he took office for his second term. Canada had an agreement, they reneged on it the moment he left office, and now the terms are worse than they were to begin with. Defense obligations have been reneged on for a very long time, and now the piper (Putin) has arrived and the bill is due. Making yourself militarily "weak" in the eyes of men like Putin is to invite a war, because he's constantly calculating his odds of taking what he wants by force.
Let's evaluate how using the densest form of Carbon, Carbon Black Powder (CBP), does or does not "work" for rocketry:
The F9B5 booster contains 123,500kg of RP1. We want to evaluate how much CBP is required to deliver equivalent thermal energy, to "know" if CBP's spectacular density of 1,700kg/m^3 can reduce total propellant volume and thus vehicle dry mass.
123,500kg of RP1 * 43MJ/kg = 5,310,500MJ
123,500kg of RP1 / 810kg/m^3 = 152.469m^3 RP1 volume
123,500kg of RP1 / 867kg/m^3 = 142.445m^3 Densified RP1 volume
5,310,500MJ / 32.8MJ/kg (CBP) = 161,905kg of CBP fuel (31% more mass than RP1 for equal thermal output)
161,905kg CBP / 1,700kg/m^3 of CBP = 95.238m^3
161,905kg * 2.67kg of LOX = 432,286.35kg of LOX
432,286.35kg (LOX) + 161,905kg (CBP) = 594,191.35kg of total propellant mass
432,286.35kg LOX / 1,141kg/m^3 = 378.866m^3 LOX volume
432,286.35kg LOX / 1,262kg/m^3 = 342.541m^3 Densified LOX volume
95.238m^3 + 342.541m^3 = 437.779m^3 total propellant volume (CBP Isp is clearly too low, so both mass and volume increases)
Here we can see the effect of low gravimetric energy density on low-Isp high volumetric density fuels. The density of CBP is fantastic, but 32.8MJ/kg is insufficient gravimetric energy density to result in a propellant tank volume reduction for a rocket powered vehicle. The Isp is so low that both propellant mass and volume have increased, as compared with RP1, which means CBP is of no practical use for a SSTO, nor TSTO for that matter. CBP will produce a spectacular amount of thrust as a strap-on hybrid solid rocket booster, much like APCP and HTPB, but the quantity of LOX required is so great that the net effect is to increase the propellant tank volume and thus vehicle dry mass to achieve a given level of payload performance.
Solids are frequently used in conjunction with LH2 to provide that critical but missing thrust at liftoff to "get the rocket moving smartly downrange", as GW puts it. However, solids of the size useful for orbital launches are neither cheap nor rapidly reusable. If the motor casing refurbishment and propellant refill was cheap enough, then we'd figure out an approach for reusability, such as having a stock of motor casings on-hand. Unfortunately, large solids are expensive and time consuming to manufacture, with the propellant poured in multiple batches, so they're more useful for infrequent exploration missions and military weapons than routine orbital launch with a high launch cadence. If CBP was very cheap / easy to produce, and was far less dangerous to transport without an oxidizer mixed into the fuel, then it might have wider utility.
Oddly enough, a German rocket company is working on a hybrid solid rocket uses CBP mixed into Paraffin wax to control burn rate and prevent melting, with LOX as the oxidizer, giving them a solid rocket with a throttle and Isp almost identical to RP1. It's technically interesting because a LOX/LH2 core stage could hold additional LOX to feed the solid boosters, which are essentially inert for transportation purposes and very compact since they lack the oxidizer. LOX is more effective than traditional toxic oxidizers used in solids, such as Ammonium Perchlorate, meaning it increases the Isp of the solid well above what is possible with APCP and HTPB. It would be possible to "ring" a core stage with what are essentially "fuel only" solid rocket boosters, and then to increase the length / height of the core stage to hold more LOX. You could put the LOX in a tank above the booster's fuel grain, but then it's more complex and difficult to recover, or more expensive to discard.
tahanson43206,
Total dry vehicle mass is everything in SSTO world, because it dictates useful payload mass. Using LH2 hinges upon higher thrust-to-weight ratio LH2 fueled engines. The RS-25 and RS-68 engines we presently have are simply not good enough. The density of LH2 is so absurdly low that it increases the dry mass of the vehicle to intolerable levels. Something has to give. There's nothing that can be done to improve the low density of Hydrogen and therefore the mass of the propellant tanks, which represents the bulk of the vehicle dry mass. Either develop LH2 fueled engines that achieve 150:1 or higher TWR or LH2-fueled SSTOs are not practical. If the engines were dramatically lighter for the thrust they provided, then the increased total dry mass of the LH2-fueled option becomes tolerable again. At the end of the day, using LH2 is not materials or energy efficient. Alternatively, use air-breathing SSTOs to delete a healthy percentage of the LOX mass and volume.
I have already proven using simple math (my Total Impulse delivered per unit of total vehicle dry mass calculation for existing rockets that have flown to space many times) that a conventional all-LH2-fueled TSTO booster and upper stage possess a total vehicle dry mass significantly higher than a conventional all-RP1-fueled booster and upper stage, for the payload delivered. 1m^3 of LOX/RP1 delivers 3X greater payload to orbit than 1m^3 of LOX/LH2. This is not debatable. We have all the mass / volume / engine performance figures required to make that determination.
Using LH2, much like Lithium-ion batteries and photovoltaic panels, appears to be more of an ideological obsession than one deferential to incontrovertible energy density math. I think this explains why the Soviets / Russians stuck with RP1 and progressively improved engine performance. They seemed to understand that the most efficient rocket tends to be the one with the lowest dry mass for a given payload to orbit. They dabbled with LH2 and other more exotic propellants, same as America did, but there was no compelling engineering and cost reason to quit using RP1.
President Trump's tariffs are intended to make it cheaper for American businesses to return manufacturing to America. All industrialized nations require robust domestic manufacturing bases. The end goal is to make America self-sufficient so that it does not need to import anything from other countries. If other nations are upset that America's government is now creating conditions favorable to American businesses manufacturing their products here in America, for consumption by Americans, that's their problem.
Rather than treating this as an opportunity to make themselves self-sufficient as well, other nations like Canada are treating it as a pissing contest with President Trump. President Biden's administration was busily implementing the same policies for microchips, munitions to feed the war in Ukraine, and other tech items we feel we need. RobertDyck is upset that Canada will ultimately need to become self-sufficient, even though Canada has the energy, raw materials, education, manufacturing base, and technology to make Canada broadly self-sufficient. It will cost more money to do, but at the end of the day Canadians will have an independent and self-sufficient nation that is uniquely Canadian and not dependent on remaining in the good graces of any other nation.
Maybe Canadians don't think that will ultimately benefit Canada, but I would like the counter-arguments for why it won't benefit Canada. I would also like those arguments from the standpoint of long-term generational prosperity- something that goes beyond the "here and now". A lot of problems have been artificially created by very short-term thinking.
America is now treating our military and economic alliances as, "Let's collaborate if all parties think they're getting fair value for whatever they contribute, or go our separate ways and remain as friends / colleagues if we don't think any particular deal is mutually beneficial."
As an American, I don't want my own fellow Americans to continue to suffer through this systematic "siphoning off of accumulated wealth". I do not want Canadians to suffer, either. I have no bone to pick with Canada or Canadians. That said, my first and most important loyalty and duty is to my fellow Americans. I cannot control how people in other nations view America's imposition of tariffs on foreign-made products. Foreign nations have imposed tariffs on American products for many decades now. If it's good for the goose, then it's good for the gander.
If tariffs are "good / necessary" when Canada applies them to American-made products, then they cannot be "bad / pointless" when America applies them to Canadian-made products, by that very same logic. Regardless or moral valuation on trade policies, what we're presently doing is slowly but surely draining the wealth out of America. That process will inevitably end, so whatever benefits it brought to other nations will end as well.
tahanson43206,
In this moment, Canada has a chance to find new (reliable) trading partners.
China will reliably steal intellectual property, reliably attempt to undermine the government and government-civilian relationship of its trading partners, and reliably claim China owns the resources of other nations. That's about all the Chinese government will reliably do.
New residents do not necessarily share the values of the older ones.
This is why they should not be "new residents" to a nation they're seeking citizenship from, until they're ready to accept and share the values of the people they're assimilating into. If part of Mexican culture views learning to speak Spanish as mandatory to assimilation, but I go to Mexico to become a Mexican citizen while refusing to learn the language and respect local customs, the Mexican people are not the problem, I am. Were I to do something like that, it would be a betrayal of public trust in immigrants and an indicator that I never had any intention of becoming a true citizen of Mexico. If there were certain elements of the Mexican government assisting me with my attempt to subvert the Mexican national identity for my own purposes, which can never be moral if that's how I have attempted to change it, then it's a betrayal at an even more fundamental level- the government of a nation at war with its own people.
Establishing a dictatorship from the beginning would appear to be a winning strategy for some cultures.
Please tell me how well China's governance strategy has worked for them. Any system of governance that manages to kill more of its own people than all civilian deaths combined during WWII is a systemic failure in every sense of the word.
The Rocket Labs Electron rocket is LOX/RP1 TSTO with propellant tanks made entirely from CFRP. It's successfully delivered payloads into orbit 64 times now. The turbopumps are electric and use Lithium-ion batteries to power them. Engine Isp is right up there with the best staged combustion engines, meaning 311s to 343s. I think we can say that it works now.
tahanson43206,
The propellant tanks could be retained in-orbit to serve as the basis of a propellant depot, but only if all the rockets are taking payloads to the same orbit. Falcon 9 is a general purpose workhorse rocket. If all the payloads Falcon 9 delivers to orbit are going to different orbits, then you're not going to have them all in one place.
You want to "melt down" an engine made from RCC? Why not use it again as an engine?
Using RCC (2g/cm^3) serves two purposes, the first being to greatly reduce engine mass to a value about 1/4 that of stainless (8g/cm^3) or Nickel-Copper (8-9g/cm^3) alloys. The second is that it does not require regenerative cooling to survive the temperatures the engine generates. NASA has tested uncooled RCC engine nozzles burning LH2 / LCH4 / RP1 fuels. They coat the RCC nozzle with UHTCs to prevent oxidation at extreme temperatures. Melting them down is not easy. You need electrical power to do it. Think about it. RCC survives combustion temperatures of LH2 / LCH4 / RP1 fuels without cooling, doesn't melt or disintegrate, and survived multiple firings without refurbishment.
CFRP propellant tanks built strong enough to survive LH2 internal pressurization are also built strong enough to carry LOX and survive 3g accelerations. 52psi vs half that much for LOX and RP1 is an extreme amount of force.
52psi = 36,560kgf/m^3 (drastically more force per unit area than 3g acceleration or aero loads during ascent)
Lockheed-Martin's box-stiffened CFRP tank concept has a 634m^3 capacity, max design pressure of 46.2psi, and it weighed 6,573lbs / 2,981kg. Therefore, the proposed tank mass of 10,710kg is quite realistic as a stage mass (tanks, engine mounts, sensors), and probably gross overkill for 468m^3 of LOX/RP1 tank capacity. I'm talking about loading 518,400kg of propellant in total, and the load is definitely distributed over more than 14m^2, so the idea that this proposed tank somehow isn't strong enough is bunk. It's probably far stronger than it needs to be, yet still a minor fraction of the mass of the original TSTO F9B5 tank mass, less engines.
Sub-scale testing results with the 5.5m diameter tanks:
In other tests, the tank successfully maintained fuels at extremely low temperatures and operated at various pressures. Engineers filled the tank with almost 30,000 gallons of liquid hydrogen chilled to -423F, and repeatedly cycled the pressure between 20 to 53 pounds per square inch -- the pressure limit set for the tests.
30,000 gallons = 113.562m^3 (not too large, but not small, either)
3 different designs from the 3 major aerospace primes. All of them passed all tests.
As the above comparison shows, our RP1 fueled TSTO is delivering 3X more payload mass per cubic meter of propellant volume, as compared to LH2.
Using the Silverbird Astronautics Launch Vehicle Performance Calculator:
Upgraded Staged Combustion Merlin-powered SSTO
Dry Mass: 17,088kg (40% lighter than Al-2195 tanks using CFRP; Merlin engine mass same as existing engines)
Propellant Mass: 518,400kg (same propellant mass as both stages of F9B5)
Thrust:5,913kN (same as Merlin-1D sea level thrust X9)
Isp: 324 seconds (Merlin-1D converted to staged combustion 360s * 0.9 for time-avg thrust output to orbit)
Launch Site: Cape Canaveral / KSC (USA)
Default Propellant Residuals?: Yes
Restartable Upper Stage?: No
Orbit: 185km by 185km, 45deg inclination
Estimated Payload: 10,654kg; 95% Confidence Interval: 5,704kg to 16,639kg
Why might we still want an expendable SSTO version of Falcon 9?
If we can figure out how to get the engines back, once on-orbit, CFRP tanks could be made 10% lighter than the mass estimate provided here for a single use. Total stage mass could be as little as 14,940kg, with 10,710kg being mostly CFRP. At $100/kg, if we figure on throwing away $1M per launch to discard the propellant tanks while recovering the engines, then I think we can live with that.
For this lighter single-use vehicle...
Estimated Payload: 12,802kg; 95% Confidence Interval: 7,852kg to 18,784kg
For RCC vs stainless and Nickel-Copper engines:
1,057.5kg (engines) + 10,710kg (propellant tanks) = 11,767.5kg dry stage mass
Estimated Payload: 15,970kg; 95% Confidence Interval: 11,023kg to 21,957kg
50% stronger T1200 fiber with CNT-infused resin vs IM7 fiber:
1,057.5kg (engines) + 6,426kg (propellant tanks) = 7,483.5kg dry stage mass
Estimated Payload: 20,254kg; 95% Confidence Interval: 15,310kg to 26,241kg
If we can make the tanks light enough, then at some point we give up on full reusability because it's cheaper to just discard the propellant tanks, collect the engines with a space tug, and return them to Earth using a HIAD. Alternatively, we accumulate some engines in space for use to propel ships to other destinations. Storing RP1 in space is relatively easy.
Someone also recently devised a method to make RCC 100X cheaper than it previously was, so fabricating high-temp engine components from RCC is now a plausible means to greatly reduce engine mass and cost.
SSTO will never be as-performant as TSTO, but the payload performance difference between the partially reusable TSTOs we have today and the expendable SSTOs we could have tomorrow may not be that great. If the cost is lower than the cost of stage recovery, that's still a "win" in my book.
RobertDyck,
If you question whether or not you should state something in an open forum, then maybe you shouldn't. We don't discuss making weapons of mass destruction on this site, whether chemical, biological, or nuclear. Discussion of using nuclear materials for peaceful purposes is fine and ultimately necessary for space exploration.
Edit for clarification:
Discussing what course of action you think the Ukrainians should take to defend their nation is fine, but posting details about making weapons of mass destruction is not.
tahanson43206,
Using RP1 (kerosene) as the fuel of choice permits rocket vehicle designers to minimize the propellant volume and maximize the total units of thrust generated per unit of engine mass and total vehicle dry mass for an orbital launch vehicle. This feature of RP1 is particularly important for SSTOs, but also important for TSTOs.
Vehicle dry mass scales by engine thrust-to-weight ratio and propellant tank volume, because for any significant payload to orbit, the propellant tank mass represents the majority of the vehicle's total dry mass (engines + propellant tanks). The cube-square law does help limit propellant tank mass increase as the propellant tank volume increases, but the end result will still be heavier propellant tanks and therefore higher vehicle dry mass when substantially less dense propellants, such as LH2, are substituted for RP1, when the goal should be equal or better payload performance with RP1. The vehicle dry mass comparison between Delta IV Medium and Falcon 9 Block 5 outright proves this. This is merely another way of saying that you cannot increase propellant tank volume by 10% or more, on account of LH2's exceptionally low volumetric density, yet still somehow arrive at a lower vehicle dry mass, as compared to RP1.
D4M Booster vs F9B5 Booster Propellant Volume and Tank Mass Comparison
D4M: 450m^3; mass, less engine: 22,110kg
F9B5: 370m^3; mass, less engines: 21,370kg or ~19,370kg without reusability hardware installed
F9B5 tank mass is 87.61% that of D4M
F9B5 tank volume is 82.22% that of D4M
F9B5 payload to orbit is 2.68X greater than that of D4M, but only 2X the gross liftoff mass of D4M
D4M Upper Stage vs F9B5 Upper Stage Propellant Volume and Tank Mass Comparison
D4M: 76m^3; dry mass, less engine 3,189kg; 23,264kg LOX + 3,956kg (561,752MJ) LH2
1X 301kg RL10B-2 engine, 110.1kN, 465.5s Isp; 24.1kg/s mass flow rate
1,129.460580912863071s * 110,100N = 124,353,610N-s
226,770kg total LOX/LH2 (both stages) / 8,510kg = 26.64747kg propellant per 1kg of payload
28,850kg + 3490kg = 32,340kg total dry mass
(447,150,942N-s + 124,353,610N-s) = 571,504,552N-s Total Impulse (both stages)
571,504,552N-s / 8,510kg = 67,157N-s/kg of payload
F9B5: 98m^3; dry mass, less engine 3,450kg; 75,200kg LOX + 33,200kg (1,427,600MJ) RP1
1X 550kg Merlin-1D Vac engine, 801kN, 348s Isp; 236.6kg/s mass flow rate
454.353338968723584s * 801,000N = 363,937,025N-s
518,400kg total LOX/RP1 (both stages) / 22,800kg = 22.73684kg propellant per 1kg of payload
25,600kg + 4,000kg = 29,600kg total dry mass (with booster reusability hardware installed)
23,600kg + 4,000kg = 27,600kg total dry mass (expendable)
(1,178,870,316N-s + 363,937,025N-s) = 1,542,807,341N-s Total Impulse (both stages)
1,542,807,341N-s / 22,800kg = 67,667N-s/kg of payload
Total Propellant Volume Required per kg of Useful Payload
D4M: 526m^3 of total propellant volume; 16.17871kg of payload per 1m^3 of propellant volume
F9B5: 468m^3 of total propellant volume; 48.71795kg of payload per 1m^3 of propellant volume
Total Thrust Required per kg of Useful Payload
D4M: 67,157N-s/kg of payload
F9B5: 67,667N-s/kg of payload
D4M "beats" F9B5, a vehicle pushing 2X as much total mass into the sky, in this one category that doesn't help make the case for LH2 fueled SSTOs, nor TSTOs for that matter. It's fractionally better than RP1 here, meaning you could run the main engine(s) for about 1.5 seconds longer, or less, on a LH2 fueled vehicle before total thrust (an indirect measure of total energy expenditure) per kg of delivered payload equalizes between both vehicles.
Hopefully we now understand how greatly vehicle dry mass affects our vehicle's total energy expended per kg of useful payload. We're getting 3X more payload mass per cubic meter of propellant volume for the F9B5 when we include both stages of the D4M and F9B5 rockets. That's a reasonably good efficiency metric if you ask me. Rather than showing how great LH2 is, we're continuously illustrating how freakishly efficient a modern RP1 fueled vehicle truly is. Even for a TSTO, every little bit of vehicle dry mass increase has a serious effect on vehicle performance.
RP1 has an acceptable Isp (total units of thrust generated per unit of propellant mass expended) for SSTO and TSTO. It's not even close to being "the best", yet LH2's much higher Isp doesn't seem to help improve total vehicle dry mass. Delivery of payload to orbit is primarily a question of Total Impulse delivered per kilogram of vehicle dry mass, and this is where RP1 is a stand-out performer.
RP1 allows the vehicle's propellant tanks to occupy the least amount of physical volume, therefore reducing their mass, amongst all of the common liquid rocket propellants. Amongst the propellants I listed, RP1 (kerosene) is the most widely used energy dense fuel combusted in gas turbine engines. The turbopumps that feed liquid rocket engines are specialized gas turbines capable of force-feeding a tremendous mass of gaseous propellants into the main combustion chamber.
RobertDyck,
President Trump said he would bomb Moscow if Putin threatens to nuke the US again. He certainly has the hardware to do it. It would be a mistake to think he's bluffing. The Iranians certainly know better now. For all their tough talk, they're remarkably quiet now. All the wackos on the radical left said Iran would massacre the US military, that President Trump would start WWIII, and similar unhinged idiocy. Oddly enough, no such thing ever happened.
Ukraine may be capable of developing their own nuclear weapons, but they're not going to have a bomb ready to go in the next week, month, or year.
One reason this war is happening is Putin wants Ukraine's resources and skills back. But he doesn't understand killing them all means he won't get their skills.
I think maybe you don't understand that Putin doesn't care about their skills, which would be why he indiscriminately bombs their cities.
Calliban,
As an engineer, do you understand all the calculations I presented to evaluate Total Impulse per unit of vehicle dry mass?
tahanson43206,
Let's compute the volumetric energy density efficiencies for the following fuels:
LCH4 (not the same thing as LNG), at 422.8kg/m^3 and 55.5MJ/kg
HTPB (solid propellant), at 920kg/m^3 and 20MJ/kg
N2H4 (Hydrazine), at 1,021kg/m^3 and 19.5MJ/kg
HFO (Heavy Fuel Oil / "Bunker Fuel"), at 1,010kg/m^3 at 41MJ/kg
LH2: 71kg/m^3 * 142MJ/kg = 10,082MJ/m^3
HTPB: 920kg/m^3 * 20MJ/kg = 18,400MJ/m^3
N2H4: 1,021kg/m^3 * 19.5MJ/kg = 19,909.5MJ/m^3
LCH4: 422.8kg/m^3 * 55.5MJ/kg = 23,465.4MJ/m^3
RP1: 810kg/m^3 * 43MJ/kg = 34,830MJ/m^3
HFO: 1,010kg/m^3 * 41MJ/kg = 41,410MJ/m^3
CBP (Carbon Black Powder): 1,700kg/m^3 * 32.8MJ/kg = 55,760MJ/m^3
Volumetric Energy Density of Alternative Fuels Compared with RP1
CBP: 160.092%
HFO: 118.892%
RP1: 100%
LCH4: 67.371%
N2H4: 57.162%
HTPB: 52.828%
LH2: 28.946%
When over 90% of the vehicle's volume is filled with propellant, as is the case for all orbital class rocket vehicles, vehicle dry mass becomes sensitive to propellant density. Since CBP and HFO would pose a severe coking problem for a rocket engine, and HFO is also loaded with Sulfur in most cases, RP1 is the most energy dense and readily available propellant for minimizing vehicle dry mass.
There are no clever "tricks" to skirt around major volumetric energy density differences when fractional improvements in propellant mass efficiency can't overcome volumetric inefficiencies which are multiples of propellants with much higher volumetric energy densities. You need as high an Isp as you can manage, but more importantly, you need sufficient density to minimize vehicle dry mass if you intend to accelerate 100% of the vehicle dry mass, plus the useful payload, to orbital velocities. The only known way to do that is to minimize the vehicle's volume, which is enabled by RP1 and hampered by far less dense propellants like LH2 and LCH4, or propellants with much lower thermal output per unit of mass, such as Hydrazine and solids like APCP and HTPB.