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#1 Re: Not So Free Chat » Ancient Chinese Fleet Landed in America » 2003-04-27 10:07:34

Don't forget the giant statues made by either the Inca or the Aztecs that have decidedly Oriental features.  I can see a Chinese anchor remaining after the ship is long rotted and eaten by worms.

How far the Vikings got inland is anybody's guess.  There is Viking style graves in New Foundland, and other sites in the Midwest.  Come to think of it, I remember reading about a man fishing in a Pennsylvania stream finding a Phoenician coin.

There may have been settlement attempts by both the Chinese and the Vikings.  They may have all met the same fate as the Roanoke Colony.  Maybe they encountered a hostile reception from the Anasazi?

P

#2 Re: Mars Society International » Projects - projects we can do now to get to Mars » 2003-04-24 16:35:58

Hello Robert!
I too watched with interest the testing of the MarsSkin suits at MDRS this field season.  As yet, there seems to be no contact between the Aussies and the spacesuitMars Group.  With Crew 17's results of the "Agents"  the dataloggers may have been overshadowed, but I think they should continue in development. 

A composite pressure tank for a PLSS may be they way to go, but spun aluminum may have to do for awhile.

As for existing launch vehicles, does anybody have any idea what happened to the old Titan "citybuster" ICBM's?  Those boosters may be the ticket for a small probe to Mars.

I would love to see another craft be built after Translife/MarsGravity and have a few ideas on where to get materials, I just don't know how to weld aluminum.

For starters, a small Chapter Project to replace "The Blob" at MDRS with an actual structure would be fabulous, and yes I've got some ideas there.  Another project could look at replacing the radio repeater, and another to maybe buy/build some more devices like the Power Pod.

Be well All!
P

#3 Re: Mars Analogue Research Stations » Bad news for volunteers » 2002-11-09 11:55:52

Congratulations Adrian!!!

I'm on the volunteer list as Virtual Mission Support, and will most likely be part of the Science Back Room.

Gotta love it when a plan comes together!!!!

#4 Re: Human missions » Space Stepping-Stones Demand A Destination » 2002-11-09 11:50:49

The Soviets were commies as well.  Sputnik was the first artificial satellite of Earth.  Yuri Gagarin was the first human in space.  Mir lasted a lot longer than Skylab.

With literally half of the Earth's population under their control, I think the Bejing government is more than capable of getting to the Moon.

#5 Re: Human missions » Space Stepping-Stones Demand A Destination » 2002-11-09 11:37:26

I'm hoping ESA's missions to Mars will light a little fire under the collective butts of Congress.  Beagle 2 on the surface may get a few politicos asking what NASA has ready to bring the limelight back to US shores. 

Taikonaut bootprints on Luna, and the planting of the Chinese flag next to the US one, would get some things rolling.  Imagine a conservative Congress watching the "godless commies" become a part of a very exclusive club.  "UN Security Council member, nuclear power, and now they've made it to the Moon!" 

Imagine the political brownie-points the People's Republic would get by broadcasting the video images of Shenzhuo leaving the ISS far behind.

#6 Re: Not So Free Chat » Right to have children - should those rights have limitations? » 2002-11-08 08:19:28

I can only hope that the support machinery will be upgraded or replaced as needs dictate.  I would also like to think satellite colonies with machinery of their own will be constructed.  More space available for more colonists AND better odds that at least some of the colonists will be alive if any type of disaster happens.

#7 Re: Not So Free Chat » Right to have children - should those rights have limitations? » 2002-11-07 18:22:37

That eventually there will be children, I have no doubt.
I would definately like the infrastructure increased before any families get created.

Small children do not each much, true.  Their little lungs do not use much oxygen, true.  But......

Infants are not capable of caring for their own needs, thus someone has to, thus decreasing the workforce available for other activities.

Unless our colonists are nudists, each one of the children will require clothing, that will have to be produced in different sizes.

The children will have to be schooled in some fashion to become contributing members of the colonies.  Even if the home-schooling method is chosen, and electronic textbooks used, they will need assistance and power will be required.

Expecting mothers will require some form of medical care to guard against complications.  Women have died in childbirth throughout history, and if it happens in the colony, then exactly who is to be removed from the workforce to care for the child?

I do see a massive building boom, if only the attempt of the colonists to escape from the smell of diapers.

turbo, veteran of more diaper changes than I care to remember

#8 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Naming Martian Settlements - What would you suggest? » 2002-11-07 17:03:55

I like it too!  "Ruby Station"  "Diamond Dome" 
and of course, the "Emerald City"
Go Cindy!

#9 Re: Human missions » Space Stepping-Stones Demand A Destination » 2002-11-07 15:25:49

I could live with NASA doing a moonbase.  I would laugh heartily at the gates of Kennedy when a manned Mars mission lands and NASA was left out of the whole thing.

L1 and L2 stations to me is nothing more than a way to keep the Shuttle program going. 

If I ask really nice, would ESA let me put of those great decals on Beagle?  The really good ones that have "HEY EARTHLING!" and an alien giving the "middle finger salute".
What a perfect shot to get from the ISS cameras!

#10 Re: Not So Free Chat » Right to have children - should those rights have limitations? » 2002-11-06 16:50:37

As 2002 draws to a close, I can see the argument over population control.  But what we don't yet know is:

Are we as a species capable of sustaining a colonization effort on Mars?

Would the combined effects of both the voyage out and the lower gravity once landed adversely effect the ability of humans to reproduce?

Does Mars possess large caverns in either the mountains or under the surface suitable for construction of large colonies?
Roofing over existing canyons may provide the required space in incremental growth.

There is much to learn yet, and data from Translife is going to be very important.

turbo

#11 Re: Not So Free Chat » Right to have children - should those rights have limitations? » 2002-11-06 12:30:02

If an underground network of trains, rocketsleds or electric tricycles connects the colonies, then could not a single team of specialists perform the "mechanic" needs ?

To attempt to stay on topic, I can just see the following scenario:

Male Settler:  "Dear we can have up to four kids if we start now! Our family could be the biggest on a new planet, think of the fame!"

Female Settler:  "I did not get a Master's degree, run myself ragged at Star City, and spend eighteen months in a closet with one shower per week, to be barefoot and pregnant."

Male Settler:  "But we NEED children to be the new technicians!"

Female Settler:  "We NEED more robots to prospect for water, go impregnate a rover!"

Somehow, I don't see the first females to Mars considering themselves to be breeding stock.  Serious brains and abilities will be needed for the colonies to work, and competition to fill billets will be fierce.  There may be several decades between first landings and first native Marsians, probably longer.  The colonies should have time to be ready for children.

turbo

#12 Re: Not So Free Chat » Yesterday's U.S. elections » 2002-11-06 11:47:08

Fabulous idea TJohn!  I hereby nominate the Jacksonville City Planning Commission as the test subjects!  The savings from the salaries can be donated to the smaller-classes initiative.

The same process currently used, (apply legs of ant to stamp-pad, release ant on city map, areas ant circles are new housing developments, rest are two lane roads that are never further expanded), can be performed by any one of the chimpanzees currently in the zoo. 

Hmmmm, proximity to Kennedy Space Center and the transmitters of the moles, the closer to Kennedy the worse the ability of the voters to perform.

I got it!  How about next time we add an amendment to make dogs legal dependents for tax purposes AND House Representation?  Bigger voice in Congress, tax breaks for rednecks, all in one package!  The "Rover Rights Admendment" sounds better than "Preggie Piggie" right?

Hey, where's my metal hat?

#13 Re: Not So Free Chat » Yesterday's U.S. elections » 2002-11-06 08:31:27

I figured Jeb was going to get it.  That's fine by me, the Republican sweep was a little surprising.

I did find out that:  A) Smoking is no longer allowed outside one's vehicle or home.  I wonder what the politcs plan to do as the sports bars die off as the smokers stay home to watch games.  I'd like to have some land just over the Georgia line right now.   

and B) pregnant pigs in Florida may no longer be caged, tethered, or otherwise restrained.  I have heard this little gem is now a Amendment to the Florida Constitution!

I guess now emigrating to New Mexico is out, unless Cindy knows how a former resident of Alamogordo can claim temporary insanity and move back.

Uh, Shaun, would the Land Down Under let me claim political refugee status?

turbo

#14 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » New Discoveries - Extraplanetary, deep space, etc. » 2002-11-05 15:08:14

Methinks Mr. Sibrel doth wear his anti-NASA mole metal helm with a tautness that doth exceed the allowable compression of yon grey matter.   tongue

#15 Re: Terraformation » Your Ethical Questions Addressed - Ecoethics and terraformation » 2002-11-05 08:40:52

I'm not so sure Mars is dying.  Earth has undergone ice ages, and Mars being further from the Sun maybe needs more time to complete the cycle.

Since this thread is most active, I want to ask something:

Does anyone on these forums no anything about experiments supposedly done at the Space Biology Laboratory of Moscow University in 1980?  It seems terrestrial lifeforms were subjected to Mars-like environemt.  The birds and mammals expired in seconds, turtles and frogs lasted hours, insects for weeks, "but fungi, lichens, algae, and mosses quickly adapted temselves to the new environment: oats, rye, and beans sprouted and grew but could not reproduce."  The quote comes from "Genesis Revisited" so I am rather skeptical.

I am still trying to locate that old book with the British scheme for "bombarding" Mars with algae (or lichen) from Antarctica.  So far no luck.

I can't classify myself as either Green or Red, but I'd like to keep the "techno-imperialist" if that's okay.

turbo

#16 Re: Life support systems » Food! - Marsians=vegetarians? » 2002-11-04 16:50:54

Ah yes, I remember the tobasco bottles.  If one is forced to consume the "meatloaf", then liberally applying tobasco to ones eyeballs leads to forgetting just how awful it is consuming recycled brake pads.

Unfortunately, MREs will have to be part of the supplies. At least the days of food in a tube seem to be over. 

What's the shelf-life on Vegemite?  I shudder to think of 18 months of MRE and ramen noodles!
turbo

#17 Re: Life support systems » Food! - Marsians=vegetarians? » 2002-11-04 08:36:39

Hello All!
So far my inquiring mind has found out that radishes, carrots, and especially broccoli do well in cold conditions.  Lettuce can handle some cold, but broccoli is the champ since it can endure freezes (millions of eight year-olds shudder). 

One of the only things the Environmental Science class taught me was that the higher the lifeform, the more food it takes to sustain.  I love animals, really, but there is no way I'd spend eighteen months in a soup can with chickens.  Japanese or not, the hens would be either quickly consumed or just plain flushed out the airlock.  I figure I could take the noise and the mess for about three weeks, then the ammonia producers would be standing on my last nerve.

So, now that I know greenhouses on Mars could let me make a chef's salad, I have to ask your esteemed personages about a concoction I have occasionally seen, but as yet unwilling to try.  The stuff is called "soy milk", and if it turns coffee into concrete, I think I'll stay in Mission Control.  I'm wondering though, since the methane generators that go "moo" would be very difficult to transport, could a Yank like me actually get along with soy milk?

Any room in the greenhouses for peanuts?  Not only do they happily return nitrogen to the soil, but they can be roasted, boiled, or turned into peanut butter.  Let's have potatoes as well, now those are flexible! 

A note of caution:  I don't care if the package does say "Meal, Ready to Eat", the "meatloaf" and the "peanut butter" are supposed to be used to build fortifications.

turbo

#18 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Agricultural Organization - "Farm Village" is a Good Model for Mars » 2002-11-03 11:05:53

Tell ya what Phobos, I'll drive the rover, empty the composting toilets, AND change lightbulbs.  Just how many pineapples are we talking about?   big_smile

#19 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2002-11-03 10:38:57

The way the NASA budget comes and goes, I doubt anything other than ISS will be completed.  Some rework and some small boosters, and Mir could be orbiting Mars right now.  I remember when the decision came down to let Skylab die.

Maybe it's just me, but wasn't a golden opportunity missed by not retrieving that Saturn V third stage?  Up for decades with no Van Allen belt for protection, I bet that "spacejunk" could speak volumes about micrometeroids and long term radiation exposure of metals.  A "lessons learned" primer on how to build interplanetary craft.

Who was it before that mentioned salvaging the inactive nuke satellites and all?  Skylab was a converted third stage, now there's one already up there we can track.  Launch costs courtesy of Apollo.

The offer still stands on piloting Columbia to Cydonia!

If the Dutch East India Company worked the way NASA does, they'd never have gotten past the Azores.

Dear NASA, cojones are required for space.  Dear Congress, 100% success is not possible (this is a government project after all) so let the scientists and engineers experiment.
It's called "intestinal fortitude", and with it we have set foot on the Moon.  If none is left, then I expect a whopping tax return, I know a spaceport in need of repairs.

#20 Re: Terraformation » Your Ethical Questions Addressed - Ecoethics and terraformation » 2002-11-02 19:22:29

Aetius, "good" rubbish are those wonderful treasures left for the trashmen that can be salvaged for useful parts (usually electronic parts).  Ah yes, the horribly ugly couch that finds a new home with the younger generation ("Look Dude, I got us a real couch!").

Dumpster-diving is an art!

turbo

#21 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Agricultural Organization - "Farm Village" is a Good Model for Mars » 2002-11-02 19:04:35

I have trouble growing mold, can I change the lightbulbs and still go?
"Green Acres is the place to be..."
I know, sit in the rover like a good boy and don't touch anything.    tongue

#22 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2002-11-02 09:01:53

I'd like nothing better than to see Mars develop with independent settlers.  Right now, only governments and large corporations have the ability to fund such missions, and from the looks of things Russia may not be among them. 

A small project like Translife may be possible with a surplus ICBM booster, but that's LEO, and from where would the thing be launched?  I know of no privately owned facility.  An abandoned oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico, or maybe off the Brazilian coast may work, but funding is still the major hurdle.

I have no doubts CANADA and other nations are able to do it all with less money, but for right now the ledger just doesn't support a mission to Mars without government and large corporate assistance.

Maybe a taikonaut needs to walk on the Moon to trigger a Space Race to Mars.  I think our favorite red planet is willing to wait a little longer.

turbo

#23 Re: Space Policy » Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first » 2002-11-01 10:07:15

Manned military bases on the moon may be great for intelligence gathering, but a satellite would be cheaper, harder to locate and destroy, and not need a logistics chain to keep going.

The LEO microwave weapons would only cause the US to go into full-scale production of one of the early Star Wars systems.  In short, an anti-satellite missile taken to high altitude by an F-15 and then launched.  Onboard systems or ground control would guide the missile to target.  A fragmentation warhead would do the job.

Japan's reliance on high technology would spark some kind of response to the orbital threat.  Ground-based lasers would stay within the "self-defense" provisions of their constitution.

Taikonaut all they want, join the orbital club, go to the moon, whatever.  I have no doubt everything will be closely monitored.

t

#24 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Draft Laws for Mars - Laws for the Peaceful Settlement of Mars » 2002-11-01 09:13:51

I have to agree with Cobra Commander on this one.  I keep seeing an "Outland" type of environment for the first decades of any Mars settlement.  A "company town" established to support some industry (like mining) with an infrastructure to make sure the production continues.

At the very least, a small experimental station like those in Antarctica.  A international mix of scientists and support staff taking ice core samples, weather observations, etc.  Managed just like ISS is now.  Maybe the development of the company towns will grow from this tiny start.

Until any settlement or network of settlements is self-sustaining, true self-government is only a dream. The early years will follow some treaty among earth nations and later the company policies of the contractors that build and support the settlements.  There may be some degree of labor unions as the settlements become more numerous and a pool of specialists evolves. 

The timeclock will proceed any constitution on Mars.  That's fine with me, so long as we GET THERE and then STAY.

turbo

#25 Re: Not So Free Chat » NASA getting on track? - Is NASA finally pulling their heads out? » 2002-10-31 13:29:45

NASA = Not Aspiring to Space Accountants
Does this mean the 2001 Lander is going to get launched?  Hey, maybe the old Viking mock up sitting around Kennedy will get to circle the Moon.

Tell ya what, Columbia is getting too old, fill the cargo bay with bottled water and munchies and I'll set that puppy down right in the middle of Cydonia.

My Ford van will leave LEO before NASA does!

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