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To tahanson43206 #124
It seems my post #120 help bring more attention to celestial body's atmosphere than magnetosphere. Could nuclear waste from the Earth be dumped onto the Martian core to generate heat and help remelt the core? The Martian gains a giant income source as the dumping site of radioactive waste.
Is there a way to provide a magnetic field for Mars?
https://askanastronomer.org/planets/201 … -for-mars/
Sorry I do not know how to make it smaller.
So after a magnetic field is created could we have a dioxygen, dinitrogen, argon, carbon tetrafluoride Martian atmosphere?
does it also make sense to create a lunar magnetic field and a Xenon and hexafluoroethane lunar atmosphere?
Looking at the figure of atmospheric escape.
I may have an simple question here. How much carbon dioxide can Martian atmosphere or the planet hold when the climate remains as is? Usually, the idea of a newbie reader is import carbon dioxide from Venus to Mars. Even then, how much shall be delivered...
About Void post#259,
I put in the imaginations.
1.Water warms itself from ice into liquid or vapor using waste heat. Low atmospheric pressure on Mars favors the warming.
1.1.Water splits itself into oxygen and hydrogen in electrolysis or with heat.
1.2. carbon monoxide is not stored but reacts with the warmed water vapor in water gas shift reaction to hydrogen and recyclable carbon dioxide.
2. hydrogen and more carbon monoxide react in the Fischer-Tropsch (FT) process to hydrocarbons such as propene, butenes and ethene. Low atmospheric pressure and temperature favors the pressurized storage of alkenes.
2.1.2. Then the usual petrochemical industry on Mars could have raw materials.
2.1.2.1. Butenes isomerize to isobutene and butanes isomerize to isobutane or isobutane dehydrogenates to isobutene. Either ways, iosbutane reacts with isobutene to isooctane, the octane number 100 fuel.
2.1.2.1.2. A vehicle with the common internal combustion engine can mobilize on Mars with isooctane fuel with an external oxygen tank. Or can it?
3. oxygen react with propene to form propanoic acid or lactic acid.
3.1. If mining also proceeds, bacteria react propanoic acid with sulfate to glucose and sulfur that was recovered. Chalcogenates and perhalates are recovered analogously for chalcogenides and halides.
3.2.1. lactic acid polymerizes into polylactic acid (PLA) for medical use, plastic utensils and greenhouse plastics.
3.2.1.2.
Meet Benin's zero waste farmer inspiring an agricultural movement the plastic cover(?) at the roots can be made with PLA.
3.2.2. potassium, calcium and magnesium lactates are mineral supplements.
3.2.2. lactic acid itself is a food source.
4. oxygen react with ethylene to acetic acid that pickles greenhouse fruits and vegetables.
5. In general, hydrocarbons reacts with oxygen to form monosaccharides. With a nitrogen supply, a biotechnology sector on the settlement can use these raw materials.
6. human breathes oxygen
7. if oxygen is still available after all the above processes, cryogenics and paramagnetism stores liquid oxygen near spaceport or on Martian orbit for replenishing the fuel.
8. if oxygen is still available at this last stage, oxygen reacts with hydrogen to form hydrogen peroxide that is stored as solids. The peroxide is the disinfectant and oxidant in the settlement. Low Martian atmospheric temperature favors the solid storage.
that is all.
Thank you th. post#27
I don't quite understand photon upconversion. Can two or more photons of various discrete energy level packages converge into less photons of greater difference than before between the highest energy level packages and the lowest? In other words, the energy is conserved but can wavelength be tuned as needed?. For practical use, such upconversion is useful because a barrage of photons from waste heat or factory exhaustion can be converted into visible light for illumination in the settlement (or in greenhouse) and microwave -- after some more wavelength tuning -- for heating water. Therefore the basic standalone needs of the settlement are dealt with using wastes.
Do you mean using 3D printers and lunar regolith to print a building?
In the case of Titanium however, there is some promise. The two earliest methods of refining Titanium the Hunter and the Kroll process, both rely upon pyrometalurigal techniques and so are not very usefull to us in space. However, the new FFC Cambridge Process does hold much promise for use on the moon. This electrochemical method uses less energy, is more efficent, and faster then the current Kroll process. And like most electrochemical process, it is possible to recycle nearly all of it's important chemical componets. The only element that is potentialy wasted is the evolved oxygen which on the moon will can be captured as a usefull gas.
per title, there are so much seawater on Earth. This could be a drastic measure to counter sea level rise.
For SpaceNut re #21
knightdepaix introduced a word "transformer" which is associated with a large scale, non-quantum electrical system.Subsequently, knightdepaix clarified that he understood the topic is about a quantum level effect.
The introduction of microwave energy to the topic lowers the energy threshold for possible pumping action even further than we started.
We started with infrared photons.
I'm hoping someone will come along and contribute to the topic by clarifying if the addition of microwave energy to the mix can somehow result in even more energy collected for human uses, such as visible light delivering electrical current.
(th)
In this journal article, the combining (e) and (f) in this one figure in a conceptual "transformer" can be inspiring. In a conceptual "transformer", an ion#1 absorbs a middle energy photon and emits a low energy and the difference in energy transfers to ion#2. Also, ion#3 also absorbs photon and emits low energy and this second difference also transfers to ion#3 This stage so far resembles the first coil of a transformer. Ion#3 then emit a few high energy photon in visible light range or at a controlled wavelength in the upconversion and return to a low energy state. Then a low energy excitation emit a low energy photon, also at a controlled wavelength. The stage resembles the second coil of a transformer. Also all the emission can be performed by more than one ion, not just ion#3. There can be multiple inbounding ions, not just ion#1 and #2 that transfer energy to numerous higher energy ions, not just ion#3. The device that handles all these absoprtions and emissions is the "photon transformer", in which inbounding and emitting wavelengths were changed, instead of voltages in a transformer the electric device. The advantage of such "photon transformer" is the generation of photons at desired wavelengths from lower energy photon and energy transfer.
Well, although this is a quantum level effect, can an energy transfer to emitting species involve other forms of energy, not just from electromagnetic radiations?
About making water, is the following imagination possible and practical:
Abundant of oxygen are available after mining on Mars and the release to human consumption in settlements. About 90% of the cosmic ray bare atoms are protons, stripped of electrons. Could cosmic ray that is supposed to be inbounding to Mars be concentrated on a designated location on Mars, Phobos or Deimos where the ray shoots on processed ore leftover oxides. Then water can be extracted and the element bound by the oxygen can be processed as scrap elements.
For tahanson43206 re #18
As a reminder, the photon upconversion process involves quantum transitions. I'd have to go back to reread the original article at the top of this topic, but my recollection is that upconversion works in a special case where an electron can be "bumped" to higher energy by a succession of lower energy photons. However, two lower energy photons can be combined (by the pumping action described above) to yield a higher energy photon in the visible light range which can successfully interact with a photovoltaic system.
Your transformer idea is what I find inspiring, and hope that others will find it so as well.
(th)
There is one figure in that journal article that inspired me here. In a conceptual "transformer", an ion#1 absorbs a middle energy photon and emits a low energy and the difference in energy is transfer to ion#2. The stage resembles the first coil of a transformer. Ion#2 also absorbs another middle energy photon and also takes in that difference from ion#1 to emit a high energy photon at a desired wavelength. The stage resembles the second coil of a transformer. The advantage of such "photon transformer" is the generation of a photon at a desired wavelength from lower energy photon and energy transfer.
Also, the transfer doesn't have to be one to one but many to one. Numerous low energy infrared or microwave photons transfer part of their energy to a designated photon and emit a higher energy photon in the visible light range using a many to one "photon transformer". An advantage can be those microwave dish receivers on a mountain top on Mars received microwave or radio waves from Mars orbital solar panel, for example. Then the emitted higher energy photon in visible light range could interact with a photovoltaic system or near infrared photon is absorbed by compressed carbon dioxide and participate in the kinetic engine machine that was discussed in another post. Then the low efficiency of those orbital solar panels can be tolerated as long as they produce radio wave and microwave that would be up-converted.
For tahanson43206 re #18, emitted infrared photons from a waste heat source could be up-converted using a "many to one photon transformer" to a or a few high energy photons in the visible light range and byproduct of lower infrared or microwave photons at a controlled wavelength. The byproduct would be in a collection when leaving the transformer and the carbon dioxide in the kinetic energy engine thread or some fluid can absorb it. We know that water absorb microwave radiation. In imagination, waste infrared photons are up-converted to a few visible light and a baggage of low energy photons such as microwave radiation that are absorbed by water, ice, carbon dioxide, dry ice or some chemical species taking part in photochemistry later.
This is obviously an imaginary case....
Another thread can be relevant to this topic.
For the energy source to the compressor at the top of the mountain,
1) may Radioisotope thermoelectric generator generate electricity and heat to compress the CO2. Then an economy of importing Earth nuclear waste to Mar can be possible. Could a nuclear transmutation factory be built next to the compressor plant?
2) may a dish receiving microwave from solar panel on Mars orbit supply the energy?
I was talking with someone about the concept of transformers which relies on a "moving" or "ever increasing and decreasing" alternating current. If both photons and other forms of energy upconversion to photons of higher energy and normal "down conversion" to photons of lower energy and other forms of energy are possible, can a "photon transformer" be made using alternating conversion from the incoming photons to the desired wavelength of the outcoming photons?
We know that classically, electromagnetic radiation consists of electromagnetic waves, which are synchronized oscillations of electric and magnetic fields.
tahanson43206 wrote:Can the lower storage site be connected to a Parabolic antenna that received microwave from solar panel in Mars Orbits or Phobos
How about installing GES on Olympus Mons? It has a very gently sloping profile, allowing facile maintenance after a road be built from the bottom to the top beside the cable. By the same token are GES systems on Mons of Ascraeus, Aria, Pavonia, Elysium feasible? They are all higher than Mount Everest.
Is the energy from the GES on Olympus Mons enough to support the number of people in Italy or the Philippines?
Ok, in the light of the above, some conclusions on a feasible way forward:
Mars’s Diversified Economy
In line with the Mars Development Plan (MDP) Mars already has a very diversified economy including:
- Agriculture. 95% of food consumed is produced on Mars.
- Energy. 99% of energy used on Mars is produced on Mars.
- Mining. There are mining operations taking place at hundreds of locations, some with human involvement, some entirely dependent
on robots. Mining and atmospheric extraction supplies 95% of the colony’s needs.
- Chemicals and raw material processing.
- Manufacturing
- Construction
- Marketing, advertising and sponsorship.
- Transport
- Health
- Sports and leisure
- Retail sector
For sports and leisure, of the four franchised sports in North American plus association football, baseball likely faced difficulties. With less dense atmosphere on Mars and about a quarter of the Earth's gravity. A hit baseball on Mars can travel farther and be faster and much more difficult for outfielder to catch it, to the point that inside the park homerun can appear as frequently as a double. I dont know but basketball, association football and ice-hockey focuses on the object on the field, the ball or the puck, so same situations as baseball. Or the ball or puck needs to be reconditioned for Mars for them and other competitive sports that focuses on the object, such as tennis, badminton, table-tennis, hockey, cricket.
North American Football could prosper but need more protective football player gears.
Team sports that focuses on the object rolling or sliding on the ground can take the lead in their team sports field.. For example, giving the low average outdoor temperature w/r/t Earth (-60oC), curling could be played on sheets of ice. With lower gravity, a hand push on Mars travels farther than the same force on Earth. Ice-hockey on the other hand needs a reconfigured puck.
Thank you Steve Stewart, again for the full of detail post.
Three ideas I would like to add:
1)From past discussion of terraforming Mars by releasing greenhouse gases on Mars, perfluorocarbons had been considered. If hydrofluorocarbons are used as foaming agents, some amount of them are going to Mars where they can be reformed to perfluorocarbons and hydrocarbons. The produced perfluorocarbons are going to be released. For example:
4 CH3F ---> CF4 + 3CH4
2CH2F2 ---> CF4 + CH4
4 CHF3 ---> 3CF4 + CH4
2) The rest are hydrocarbons. Given those, additional hydrocarbons per se used as foaming agents in your detailed post can be collected and reacted with Martian atmospheric carbon dioxide to create carbon monoxide, water, hydrogen and hydrocarbons. A Fischer–Tropsch process can then reform the hydrogen and carbon monoxide content to more hydrocarbons. The water byproduct is useful.
3) Instead of hydrocarbons, organic acids such as propionic acid can be produced en masse. Propionic acid could be prepared from ethylene and carbon dioxide. Ethylene can be prepared from carbon dioxide and hydrogen
in http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 49#p149349
9H2+3CO2 --->3H2O+3CO+6H2(The case for mars page 182)
2CO+4H2---> C2H4+2H2O(The case for mars page 182)
C2H4+CO+H2O--->CH3CH2CO2Hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propionic_acid#Production wrote:In industry, propionic acid is mainly produced by the hydrocarboxylation of ethene using nickel carbonyl as the catalyst:[13]
H2C=CH2 + H2O + CO → CH3CH2CO2HIn total, the reaction becomes
9H2+3CO2--->4H2O+CH3CH2CO2H+2H2
Or if the ratio of reactants is optimized, the reaction then becomes
7H2+3CO2--->4H2O+CH3CH2CO2H
in http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p149176
Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Propionic Acid would be:
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)
C6H12O6(s) -> 2CO2(g) + 2C2H5OH(l) (Fermentation, courtesy probably of yeast)
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 4CO2(g) + 4C2H5OH(l) + S(s) (Overall reaction)
Then the acidic contents in solvent can come from residue of vegetables and fruit as you detailed or from hydrocarbons. Then reducing bacteria can then take mineral or organic salts after acidic neutralization of Martian soil --- that you detailed --- to produce glucose, the chemical elements, in the above example sulfur is produced, and/or oxides of elements. Granted electricity from nuclear power, electrochemistry or thermic process can be part of the whole process to produce metals such as iron, calcium, magnesium, aluminum and silicon.
Shall we just send Near Earth and Mars objects minus Phobos and Deimos to Mars for strip mining?
Drone?
So adding the h2SO4 to the mars soils mostly FeO2 we get h2o
H2SO4 + FeO2 = Fe(SO4)2 + H2O
So taking a pile of Mars soil and react it with Venusian clouds in hanging laboratory on the Venusian atmosphere? The water is used by Venusian settlers and the iron sulfate exports to Mars where sulfur, iron and oxygen would be extracted?
If lowering of the ocean is what it takes then plumb the water to each household for waste removal and stop using fresh drinking water for the purpose.
Not that I cannot understand the statement but how it ties to dust storm.
Past threads:
Martian Dust Storms - Dangerous or not?
Dust storms could spell disaster for probes - several small storms starting
Is the magnitude of the dust storms going to fade away after the terraforming of heating up Mars and letting go of liquid water from polar ice cap started? If the news were correct, one source told me that dust storms were more prevalent on Earth when the sea and ocean levels were much lower during ice ages.
In simpler words, can we just turn sulfuric acid off the atmosphere of Venus into liquid and transport the sulfuric acid liquid to Mars? The removed energy off the atmosphere is used for the transportation.
While mining would be going on on Phobos, does loss of mass slow down or stop its deceleration so the Phobos would not be broken apart?
Can the lower storage site be connected to a Parabolic antenna that received microwave from solar panel in Mars Orbits or on Phobos? Then microwave could be upconverted to higher energy photons that can be stored in chemicals while those chemicals are loads to be storage in the higher energy storage. In essence, there would be potential energy and chemical energy storage.
On the higher energy storage on the mountain, there could be a launch site or spacepad facility to make use of the energy storage.
