New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#26 2005-05-25 17:19:20

Trebuchet
Banned
From: Florida
Registered: 2004-04-26
Posts: 419

Re: Galactic government

(ignoring pointless ethical bickering)

I oppose the formation of any sort of galactic government or association. Let humanity drift like dandelion seeds across the galaxy in a wild, unsorted mess - it'll be for the best in the long run.

Offline

#27 2005-05-25 17:32:35

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Galactic government

I oppose the formation of any sort of galactic government or association. Let humanity drift like dandelion seeds across the galaxy in a wild, unsorted mess - it'll be for the best in the long run.

*Hey Treb, I like that.  :up:  Think I'll quote you!

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Offline

#28 2005-05-25 18:00:14

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Galactic government

In an unethical situation where for your child to live it is necassary to steal the medication that will keep someone else's child alive. Interesting point in Darwism type behaviour.

Still my reply would be why would in a modern quote "enlightened" society would such a choice have to be made both children should be given the right to life.

I may disagree with your beliefs and what you say but im perfectly willing to fight for your right to say what you say. But as a society we need a degree of a general consensus and context so that society may actually function.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

Offline

#29 2005-05-26 01:47:34

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Galactic government

This is precisely why a Space or Mars government would have to purchase the rights to pretty much every medicine that come along. They would be obliged to provide the mass production rights to every one as cheap as possible so that medicine was available equally and "freely" no matter where you are. That is the Ethical obligation of every good government.

Achievement comes from living, healthy people. Of course if you disagree with socialist medicine You better not tell any one you have shares and profit from the inavailability of medicine to those who can't afford it... They might realize that you are unethical.

Take for instance the cure to influenza discovered in 96 by a bunch of Australians. Rather than dump the cure into the food chain and end influenza it was promptly bought up along with the industrial process for manufacture and the method of discovery by one of the big US corporations who continue to mass produce 'vitamins' to stave off the effects rather than end it once and for all.

So much for ethics.

Offline

#30 2005-05-26 02:39:34

idiom
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2004-04-21
Posts: 312

Re: Galactic government

Having too many children is unethical. If you have to many children I will force you to kill the extras.


Come on to the Future

Offline

#31 2005-05-26 15:08:19

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Galactic government

Having too many children is unethical. If you have to many children I will force you to kill the extras.

Oh, so you believe in genocide do you?

Larry,

Offline

#32 2005-05-26 23:59:56

idiom
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2004-04-21
Posts: 312

Re: Galactic government

Only when Genocide is Ethical and Right. Besides that example is the opposite of genocide. It is the maintaining of the specific Genepools future rather than trying to wipe out a specific genepool.


Come on to the Future

Offline

#33 2005-05-30 17:53:54

reddragon
Banned
From: Earth
Registered: 2005-01-24
Posts: 193

Re: Galactic government

Only when Genocide is Ethical and Right.

Genocide is by definition unethical and wrong.

I oppose the formation of any sort of galactic government or association. Let humanity drift like dandelion seeds across the galaxy in a wild, unsorted mess - it'll be for the best in the long run.

Makes sense to me. Let Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Fascists, right wing nuts, left wing nuts, and all others have their own "perfect" worlds without anyone else telling them how to run things. Hopefully there will also be a few moderate worlds where civilization can survive. I would like something to keep all the different groups from fighting, though.


Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.

             -The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
              by Douglas Adams

Offline

#34 2005-05-31 18:30:16

Leifur
Banned
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: 2004-12-15
Posts: 40
Website

Re: Galactic government

I would not accept any form of centralized government for the whole space. I beliewe it absolutely essential for a succesful colonization and spread of human kind (and other earth life) to the stars the competition between various peoples, nations and hopefully one day, planets.

Of course it varies mostly on technology, if we will conquer the distances easily at some point in the future, the threat of to much centralization will be stronger, but there will always be some people who will not want anything to do with the central power, thus the potential for conflict is to great by having a strong centralizing power.

A system more like we have to today, of independent countries joined together in cooperative entity like the UN (even though it is hugely corrupt as it is today) is by far preferable, whose main purpose is maybe as means of cooperation if there would be an external threat, or to mediate between nations if there is threat of war.

One thing I have newer understood, why is it bound to happen, as most sci-fi writers and future thinkers, that a single planet will be a single entity, a single nation with a single government? Is it not more likely, specially on the early stages of colonization (specially within the solar system) that there will be a few different nations and governments on each planet, specially within the same solar system?

But for any of this to happen, we need a huge population surge, beeing only about 6 billion people (and stuck there for now some time) is by far not enough to populate the galaxy, not even the solar system. I could see the moon as a big single city (coruscant style) with billions of people in the future, and Mars and Venus colonized, start of wich must happen within this century.

Then we will be strong enough to push further into space, the human resource is the only limited factor we have, and the most valuable resource, we need more scientists, engineers and kapitalists to create the economic and technological breakthrough of becoming a space faring species.


Leifur

Es. [url=http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2776]Private creation and enforcement of law on Mars
Old-Icelandic/ Anarco-Capitalistic system on Mars[/url]

Offline

#35 2005-06-01 15:19:46

reddragon
Banned
From: Earth
Registered: 2005-01-24
Posts: 193

Re: Galactic government

I beliewe it absolutely essential for a succesful colonization and spread of human kind (and other earth life) to the stars the competition between various peoples, nations and hopefully one day, planets.

Some types of competition, economic or just trying to have your country the leader in some field or the first to do something for instance, are often good and promote advancement. Competition that leads to military conflict, however, should be avoided if possible since it is to the detriment of all civilizations involved.

One thing I have newer understood, why is it bound to happen, as most sci-fi writers and future thinkers, that a single planet will be a single entity, a single nation with a single government? Is it not more likely, specially on the early stages of colonization (specially within the solar system) that there will be a few different nations and governments on each planet, specially within the same solar system?

You're probably right there. I think sci-fi writers just find it simpler to have planets play the role that nations play on Earth. After all if two nations on the same planet are at war you miss out on all the cool space battles. (I know I just said war between planets would be bad, and where reality is concerned I stand by that, but in fiction war is good.) As we expand into space the number of planets that we can use will increase exponentially. At first, with Mars for instance, new planets will probably have many nations on them. As single planets become less of a big thing, however, it will be more likely that groups or individuals will claim an entire planet when they settle it rather than just a portion and that others will not object to that claim. When we reach the Star Wars type civilization, which I believe we can do someday, there will probably be both planets that are just one nation and those that are multiple nations. I wonder what the situation will be like on Earth by that time...


Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.

             -The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
              by Douglas Adams

Offline

#36 2005-06-01 15:23:30

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Galactic government

I would not accept any form of centralized government for the whole space. I beliewe it absolutely essential for a succesful colonization and spread of human kind (and other earth life) to the stars the competition between various peoples, nations and hopefully one day, planets.

Of course it varies mostly on technology, if we will conquer the distances easily at some point in the future, the threat of to much centralization will be stronger, but there will always be some people who will not want anything to do with the central power, thus the potential for conflict is to great by having a strong centralizing power.

A system more like we have to today, of independent countries joined together in cooperative entity like the UN (even though it is hugely corrupt as it is today) is by far preferable, whose main purpose is maybe as means of cooperation if there would be an external threat, or to mediate between nations if there is threat of war.

One thing I have newer understood, why is it bound to happen, as most sci-fi writers and future thinkers, that a single planet will be a single entity, a single nation with a single government? Is it not more likely, specially on the early stages of colonization (specially within the solar system) that there will be a few different nations and governments on each planet, specially within the same solar system?

But for any of this to happen, we need a huge population surge, beeing only about 6 billion people (and stuck there for now some time) is by far not enough to populate the galaxy, not even the solar system. I could see the moon as a big single city (coruscant style) with billions of people in the future, and Mars and Venus colonized, start of wich must happen within this century.

Then we will be strong enough to push further into space, the human resource is the only limited factor we have, and the most valuable resource, we need more scientists, engineers and kapitalists to create the economic and technological breakthrough of becoming a space faring species.

I suspect that the reason a planet will more likely have one single goverment is that there will be one set up to allow the colonisation to happen anyway. More or less the planetary development council will simply grow into being the planetary authority.

Any seperation of nations on a new planet will happen probably by violent disagreement between the colonists.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

Offline

#37 2005-06-25 20:20:47

Trebuchet
Banned
From: Florida
Registered: 2004-04-26
Posts: 419

Re: Galactic government

You could have different nations arise from relatively unorganized, unofficial colonization efforts, which I believe might be much more common than expected. When technology and income advance to that convergence point where a committed group of willing people can just *go*, people will... just go. They won't ask permission of some government (what are they going to do, send an armada after every colony ship?)

Heck, given sufficient technology (artificial wombs, some other biotech equipment, desktop fabrication...) you could have colonization started by groups too small for viable colonization by normal means, possibly even single persons. It would be hard to keep the lid on that, assuming space travel remains sublight in speed (with the vast time involved handled by suspended animation, which does appear possible in people, or whatever).

For that matter, the slow speed of interstellar travel would screw interstellar wars, too. Trying to invade the next star over would be like the US attempting the armed invasion of a large country located on the Moon. Tremendous distance, enormous logistical hurdles, little gain - not conducive for even irrational nutbar planets to try.

Offline

#38 2005-12-13 18:08:10

showtime17
Banned
From: Montreal
Registered: 2004-05-23
Posts: 26

Re: Galactic government

Well it depends on transportation...If some form of FTL travel is developed then the government could be centralized. I envision a big Terran Confederation, where each planet or system (the units will depend on population) will have local autonomy, but still be under a Federal government. Each system/planet would send a local representative to the Confederation Senate, while a lower chamber would be voted on proportionally either in the entire Confederation or by sectors depending on how big the total entity is. There would be 3 levels of participation in the Federal entity. First two levels Core and Colonies would have basically the same rights and each local unit would send representatives to the central government. There would be a special third level called the Frontier, where all the world's that have begun to be settled only recently fall into. These worlds/sectors would still not have full political rights, but would instead be ruled by an appointed governor, while they're being developed. Their settlers would however still have full political rights back on their original worlds. After development of these sectors was judged good enough, then they would get full political rights.
This system would work good and fine for a few centuries or millennia, but as in any human government, cracks would start appearing, separatism would be born and systems will try to break away. Eventually this entity would split into several smaller entities.

Offline

#39 2006-03-08 04:34:01

Martin_Tristar
Member
From: Earth, Region : Australia
Registered: 2004-12-07
Posts: 305

Re: Galactic government

Trebuchet,

You don't understand the reasons behind warfare, with FTL Transportation nations would war for territory, resources and other reasons for conquest.

Showtime17

You have the right idea about the Galactic Governement for the Humans in space , It allows autonomy for single planets (nations) to manage their resources with a federal oversight government.  The galactic police / security group would continual need expansion as new territory be created. The explorer vessels would be part military / part civilian working in groups to meet the challenges on the frontier.

But We need to start from our existing political structures by using the United Nations and developing a model for continuing member states regional management of earth territory but the creation of a planetary government called United Earth Government it would be the start for the Terran Solar System Council then Terran System Government.

Offline

#40 2006-03-08 18:51:31

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Galactic government

Why would warfare occur if we had an ftl drive system.

The usual reasons of course Greed, Need and pleasure.

There will always be something that you have that someone else will want and short of the harder method of going to look for it they just decide to take it from you.

Sad is it not


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

Offline

#41 2006-03-10 12:18:34

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Galactic government

I go more with the nation states sovereignty. So on Earth there will always be maybe hundred countries or so on Earth. But, once we start moving out from earth we will be going in the one nation state per celestial body that out there. We would tend to have one or just a few government on either the moon or Mars. There would tend to be a central government on each of those bodies or Nation state kind of configuration. They may or may not be a strong political tie to the Earth in the form of either a Confederation or Federation. Most likely we would see a mixture of independent planet and confederation or Federation springing up across the  Galaxy as we develop faster that light space ship. Without a strong central government or independent  sovereign nation state dedicated to building infrastructure and promoting the development of new technologies, the whole colonization process would stop and implode on itself. So I am not committed to it having to be all of one or the other, but there would have to be an agreement that we respect the sovereignty of other nation or we in fact have interstellar wars with each other.

As far and independent colonization programs, I suppose that possible and may even actually happen two or three hundred years down the road or longer. What happen then would depend on how many people are involved in there colonization program. Whether or not they find and earth type planet or have to settle for a Mars type planet or possibly moon type planet or asteroid. It would also depend on what type government they setup and banking institutions they install. If there going to servive on anything other than an Earth type, then the government and banking system are absolutely necessary to be of a certain type or committed to certain policies or they won't servive where they choose to settle. However, if they find an Earth type planet and we catch up to them in two or three hundred after they have colonized that planet and they make the wrong choices, we could run into a backward economic society. They would technologically go backward and they would probably be using horse drawn carriages to travel around the country and telling stories of how they came from Earth.

This is my opinion as to what would happen. I am only committed to the concept of the sovereignty of the several nation states that would exist on the earth or in space with a possible forum like possibly a UN to discuss differences is about all you could expect. There is also the possibly that some nation on earth finding a planet out in space may choose to relocate there entire country on that new planet that they have found out there. But, I would doubt that a nation Earth would choose or could be able to relocate like that though.

Larry,

Offline

#42 2022-08-14 09:42:16

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Galactic government

The FLT barrier is too far for now maybe a fringe science could open up, a wormhole, some spooky quantum rule bending commutation that goes around the rules and makes events possible.

Perhaps it can all change

Space seems to be of military debate, but Russians which were considered helpful partners are now a problem and Putin attacks with imperialism in Ukraine. The Private Sector moves forward, the new nations rise and develop new space programs.

Chinese who are 'Communist' have made it on their own, maybe also getting inspired by, almost stealing or copying other ideas but they have done it without international help, meanwhile Russia and the USA help expand mohammedanism to space.

When events go wrong who will push for Law and Order?

How humans may populate the universe in the billions of years ahead
http://spectator.com.au/2022/07/to-infinity-and-beyond/

Is Artemis 1 the beginning or the end?
https://jacksmars.blogspot.com/2022/08/ … r-end.html

The Paradox of the Second Space Race
https://unionforward.substack.com/p/the … space-race
The emerging space race realizes our former presidents John Kennedy's highest ambitions and Dwight Eisenhower's worst fears.

old news Russia begins 240 day long isolation experiment for interplanetary missions
https://factoidproductions.blogspot.com … ius21.html

Knifeman who 'tried to murder' Salman Rushdie kept his religious fanaticism secret from his 'very nice' family, neighbor says, as suspect's tearful mom is seen for first time since attack
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … amily.html

Security
https://www.bitchute.com/video/dhg6Nt155g4/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-14 09:53:44)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB